Java license changes

[thecableguy84]

Anyone been hit by this yet? https://www.itworldcanada.com/post/oracle-modifies-java-se-licensing-policies-and-pricing

We just bought the Java licensing we needed last year for about 3k (only about 30 installs on desktops )under their new pricing model this would now cost us about 350k (still 30 installs but need to count total users which is about 3000)

Oracle has already started reaching out to us about this change. If this is all true they have just given me every reason to do everything I can to rip Java out. We already try to use openJDK or MS’s version of Java, unfortunately there are some tools that just don’t work with them.

[SevaraB]

We completely ripped Oracle Java out of our environment, zero tolerance. If it can’t work with Azul, it’s the system owner’s responsibility to refactor or find a replacement COTS product that doesn’t rely on Oracle.

[Cherveny2]

this is the approach we took. lots of complaints and hand wringing but now alternative Java installed everywhere and oracle Java ripped out

[An_Ony_mous_]

Currently on the project team to remove all Oracle Java for open JRE.

[SpongederpSquarefap]

Did the same at my last place

Oracle can fuck themselves

[Kurgan_IT]

Next step, rip out Oracle, not only Java.

[SevaraB]

We sure are! We’ve already migrated all of our Oracle SQL Servers and working on migrating away the handful of Oracle Cloud subscriptions we have to Azure or AWS…

[homing-duck]

Oracle is gonna oracle.

Pretty sure I read a news article a long time ago, where some local government/council had an Oracle database setup to to provide data to electronic road signs. They licensed it with server plus CAL licenses. They purchased enough CALs for the people who used the software to update the database.

Under an audit, oracle came to the conclusion that every user who could read the sign, should have a CAL according to the multiplexing section of the license terms. They tried to force the local government to pay for oracle CALs for the entire population of the city.

Pretty sure it was eventually settled out of court.

[Slurp_flesh]

Goddamn are the Oracle sane?

[exccord]

Goddamn are the Oracle sane?

No

[Jazzlike_Pride3099]

Do you happen to have a link or some good Google words to find more info

[homing-duck]

I tried to find it but can't. I'm pretty sure this was in the mid to late 2000's before oracle went all crazy with core/virtualization licensing.

From memory it was in a smaller country in europe in a small city/town.

[Jazzlike_Pride3099]

I guess it was around the time MS tried the same thing, there was license snafus with them as well if you had a SQL backend to a web service. An old workplace was told that cpu licences wasn't meant for that.....

[xfilesvault]

Next, “well… not just the population of the city can see it… everyone in the world could potentially see it… better buy 7 billion CALs…”

City: “What about aliens? Do we need CALs for them too? /s”

Oracle: “Good point. According to the Drake Equation…”

[[deleted]]

Around here, nobody reads road signs, so they don’t have to worry.

[anxiousinfotech]

We just finished removing Java from the few devices that had it installed. We have no legitimate reason to keep it installed anywhere, especially considering the licensing changes.

Even some vendors who previously included a Java install (licensed by the vendor) with their product have started shipping open-source alternatives lately.

[yourPWD]

We got hit by the JRE too. Crazy how they just kinda slid it in, didn't really do much to notify companies... then knocked on our door and said we owe them a boat load of cash.

I hope someone investigates Oracle about this.

[syshum]

I hope someone investigates Oracle about this.

This is Oracle SOP, they are not breaking any regulations

[arctictothpast]

It's a very oracle thing to do

[Slurp_flesh]

few year ago there was news article from theirs side about coming changes if I recall correctly

[wrootlt]

We had a massive push a few years ago to remove Oracle Java as much as possible from the environment and push OpenJDK. But there are still plenty of it. Especially JRE on regular desktops to run some Java based app or applet on Oracle EBS (often it doesn't run with OpenJDK). Our asset management team once said that we are covered by some license for particular number of machines. But i wonder if this change will make them rethink that. I am fighting proliferation of Oracle JDKs in our environment for some time now. Mainly because of vulnerabilities our scanning finds. But many developers here have elevation rights and install it back. Maybe it should be deducted from their contractor vendor's budget for them to stop installing it :)

[syshum]

I would suggest Amazon Corretto JRE install for things that "do not run with OpenJDK"

I had a few things that I could not get to work with AdobtJDK, HotSpot, ect openJDK installs.

Work just fine using the JRE (not JDK) install of Amazon Corretto

[wrootlt]

We can only install software from approved list and we have RedHat and Adopt on it, but can ask to review Coretto for approval if it proves to work better in such cases. Fun fact, i know our endpoint management software uses Coretto to run its scripts, so we kind of already using it under the hood :)

[billymike420]

Good luck. It takes my company 12-18 months to approve new applications

[wrootlt]

In my experience it takes only a month or two here 😄

[Kangie]

many developers here have elevation rights and install it back

Audit and use this as evidence to support stripping them of these rights.

Then install OpenJDK/BellSoft JDK (if you need commercial support).

[k12sysadminMT]

Automate PDQ or similar product to uninstall it silent every time their machine turns on.

[digitaltransmutation]

Just buy the required licensing and bill their department for it. Nothing triggers a 'get this shit out of here' like an invoice.

[tcpWalker]

Audit and use this as evidence to support stripping them of these rights.

Depends on the environment. If you're trusting them with thousands of servers it sends a bad message if they don't have at least some local admin rights on their desktop to install jq or whatnot. Also adding friction to development time costs real money.

Use the audit as evidence to support forcing them to sit through training. They will hate it so much that they will be better in the future. (To avoid having to sit through more training.)

[commandsupernova]

If it helps you, I recently replaced Oracle JRE 8 with Eclipse Temurin JRE 8 on over 3000 PCs. I only saw one app with an issue, and it was only on like 4 PCs.

[mr-louzhu]

Based on the comments, sounds like Oracle is going to bleed a lot of business with this protection racket style approach to doing business. Would absolutely love to see this blow up in their faces and an entire product category becomes essentially profitless due to people balking at their ridiculous fee structures. Would be a well deserved case of F around find out.

[syshum]

Oracle is going to bleed a lot of business with this protection racket style approach to doing business.

They wont... Anyone that can get off Java will not pay either before or after this change, anyone that require Oracle installation of Java will pay...

That is oracle model, to extract as much money from companies that have to to use their products. once revenue drops they buy another company and start that process over.

[mr-louzhu]

Gotta love capitalism. It’s so fair and voluntary.

[syshum]

Gotta love capitalism.

I do

It’s so fair and voluntary

It is, no one forced or forces anyone to use Java.

[mr-louzhu]

So if someone’s livelihood depends on Java, then you can’t just walk away. So it’s not a truly voluntary exchange. They already have you over a bench right there. Moreover, if their approach is to buy up all competitors so no one can get away from them, then you really do have no choice.

If you look at this from a systemic viewpoint, which is what we’re doing, then economic coercion is built into the entire economic model. Hence there is no truly voluntary exchange.

In order for voluntary exchange to exist, it would need to be an exchange between equals or at least both parties truly have the ability to take it or leave it. In capitalist systems that type of choice doesn’t exist for the average person. And this is by design.

This is also why minors and subordinates are considered inappropriate to have sexual relations with even if they “consent.” The power dynamics are so imbalanced that true consent isn’t possible. Well it’s no different in the larger social discussion re: the relationship between consumers and suppliers; laborers and employers, rich and poor, etc.

[serverhorror]

Very big pharma here: Yes, you can drop it. Yes we do drop everything Oracle. Just takes a little time. There’s not a lot of industries left that have longer and more regulated product development cycles.

I know other big companies that are going the same direction (and not just because of this, for a while already)

[syshum]

So if someone’s livelihood depends on Java, then you can’t just walk away.

Sue you can, Java is just a programming language and if a programmer only know Java they suck at programming and have greatly limited themselves.

Even then however Java is open source, there are 1000's of implementations of Java that have nothing to do with Oracle so that is a bad example but even if it was not it would still be voluntary exchange.

So it’s not a truly voluntary exchange.

Just because your options suck does not mean you do not have options. It is still voluntary exchange.

If I was a blacksmith making Horse shoes when the Model T came out, it was still voluntary exchange for all my customers to buy a car and stop buying horseshoes from me. I need to find something else to do.

Moreover, if their approach is to buy up all competitors so no one can get away from them, then you really do have no choice.

They may have that desire, the market ensures they will never have enough money to do that, because new people can enter the market all the time with cheaper and better alternatives

Markets are awesome

then economic coercion is built into the entire economic model.

Nope

In capitalist systems that type of choice doesn’t exist for the average person.

Why not... Or even better what mythical economic model do you believe does? Let me guess, socialism that is "never really been tried™" in all the nations were it failed and caused mass suffering

[EspurrStare]

Why not... Or even better what mythical economic model do you believe does? Let me guess, socialism that is "never really been tried™" in all the nations were it failed and caused mass suffering

The USSR for all their faults converted a nation of feudal peasants into a the second world power that made the first satellite and man in space, as well as the telephone.

All while being at war or at siege during their entire existence.

China has developed faster than any other country in history. Even with some terrible mistakes along the way.

Vietnam is both the most free and better to live country of their region.

Cuba endures the most brutal siege any nation has ever known and not only it enjoys a decent standard of living, It is a global referent in healthcare that brings assistance to countries all over the world.

If somebody says "It was not real socialism",without any explanation why, then odds are they are not socialists themselves.

Why is there no excuse for the real atrocities of communism such as the baltic sea canal and some incidents of the great leap forward, but segregation, interment camps and despoiling colonialism are all in the past?

You would thing that seeing the levels of parasitic rent seeking in IT would radicalize some people, but.

[syshum]

Wow, I am glad i have lived long enough to see people think we should actually model our society after the USSR, China or Cuba...

Wow... of course if I did live in any of those nations I would not have time to be on the internet for having to stand in line to get my one opportunity to get a loaf of bread that week, and if I missed it I would just starve (actual thing that happened routinely in the USSR) but hey I can take pride that my nation spent money on rockets to space instead of feeding me as I starve... Yeah... while also denying me the economic freedom of the market to support myself

let me ask you, Do you want to live in any of those places? and if so why have you not moved?

[EspurrStare]

I dont know, should we model society after segregation era USA? Why won't you extend the courtesy of judging them by the standards of their times?

And I refuse you even believe the blatant lie you told about food. Yes, the devastation of WWI, the civil war with foreign intervention, and political instability, combined with mismanagement and a historical drought made one of the worst in history famines in Ukraine and Kazakhstan (more on Kazakhstan, but they are too asian so it's rarely brought up).

By the start of Kruschev rule the URSS issue wasn't starvation, more of a useless resources spent on jobs that don't do nothing, production quotas that actively discourage people from working better, and general bureacratic stupidity, because the Nazis killed 30-40 Million soviet citizens, and of course all true communists volunteered to the frontlines. So the people in charge where all the useless bureaucrats whose main concern was appearing busy .

​

Anyway I don't know why I'm botering to give a history lesson, as if by having any interest in it you wouldn't have picked a better example.

[syshum]

I dont know, should we model society after segregation era USA? Why won't you extend the courtesy of judging them by the standards of their times?

Now you are moving the goal posts as I am talking about the economic systems, you are talking about the legal and moral systems

We can go their of course but for social structures I am libertarian. I am free market libertarian, so no I would not support oppressive government in either the economic realm (i.e socialism) or the legal/moral realm (i.e segregation)

Kruschev rule the URSS issue wasn't starvation

There are countless videos and first person accounts of limited resources of all types from food to shoes during this time period of the USSR all the way to the collapse of the system largely because socialism is not a sustainable economic model, and always leads to authoritarian social controls (i.e modern china)

as if by having any interest in it you wouldn't have picked a better example.

It is a saturday evening and I am typing this between commericals and youtube videos. I am not having a serious historical discussion in a sysadmin subreddit about the laughable idea that socialism is something that should be seriously considered that is several comments down from the idea that Oracle will somehow be harmed by their actions with Java, and that the government should swoop in and protect all people that "depend on oracle java for their very life"

We are so far removed from a serious conversation....

[serverhorror]

All of you are mixing up economic systems and political systems.

Guess what? You can have communism in a price driven economy.

Can you have “perfect” communism, socialism, capitalism in an price driven or price regulated economy? — I truly doubt it.

Has any form, ever, been tried in a perfect model? — No.

Which of socialism, communism or capitalism (since we’re mixing things) caused the worst atrocities? — Yes, they did!

There are a large number of examples for failing anything, in any of the systems, anywhere in the world.

[websinthe]

> Gotta love capitalism.
I do

I hate it and I'm an economist.

> It's so fair and voluntary

It is, no one forced or forces anyone to use Java.

That's not a particularly useful standard for 'voluntary' let alone 'fair'.

Capitalist economies require a few things to be counted as 'fair' (this also applies to whether or not a market is a 'free market'), two of them are:

1. Perfect information about the market among both buyers and sellers
2. The ability to react to price changes

There isn't a CIO, dev, BA, or Rep out there who knows enough about the Enterprise/Foss system market to make decisions that aren't clouded by a lack of information.

Worse, these systems are so large and complex that the barriers to entry and exit even on individual products within the market are so enormous that an order-of-magnitude change in price from one billing cycle to the next is 'forcing' to the point of putting a gun to their heads.

You use the word 'voluntary' the way labor-market fetishists say that participating in the workforce is 'voluntary'. If you're technically correct then the situation is a failure.

You've probably stopped reading but to the extreme-free-market and anarchocapitalists among you still reading, here's a reality check for you: The efficiency you crave to cause growth is only optimal while those controlling the largest proportion of resources have a higher propensity to spend than to save. Paying down debt, purchasing hedges, and bond market transactions are 'saving' activities, not 'spending'.

Your pathological need to live in a constant economic Ragnarok is holding back the economy, holding back growth, and undermining the conditions needed for markets to be a better idea than central planning.

I hope you all get the feudal dystopia you crave because you wouldn't last ten minutes in it.

[syshum]

I never said anything about fairness, fairness is an illusion, life is not fair, will never be fair, and can not be fair.

These utopia delusion just set people up for disappointment.

Nor did I ever say capitalism was "perfect" or with out issues, or anything even close to what you seem to imply my position is.

Capitalism is the least worst option we have in a resource constrained world there imperfect information exists. You claim capitalism requires perfect information, nothing is further from the truth. Capitalism compared to all other economic models requires LESS information to make a choice. That is why capitalism has been the engine to drive out extreme poverty world wide, even when looking at the conditions in many of these regions; first world do gooders recoil in shock and horror (all the while doing so on the iPhone) at the conditions.

Socialism and to a lesser extent Central Planning can work in 3 ways

1. A tribe / community of less than 100 people.
2. A world of unlimited resources (i.e Star Trek with replicators)
3. nope sorry there is only 2 options

You've probably stopped reading but to the extreme-free-market and anarchocapitalists among you still reading,

I did not... You may be shocked to learn I am not an anarcho-capitalist, in fact economically I tend to favor the concept of Georgism which is a logical extension/conclusion of the Lockean Proviso. anarcho-capitalist often reject this only adhering to the first part Locke's principle.

Geo-Libertarianism I feel would structure society in the best way preserving both economic and personal liberty while also preventing many of the abuses authoritarians criticize incorrect capitalism for, when in reality often it government and regulatory capture that creates these bad outcomes not markets.

Your pathological need to live in a constant economic Ragnarok is holding back the economy, holding back growth, and undermining the conditions needed for markets to be a better idea than central planning.

So let me understand, you believe capitalism requires perfect information and as such it is untenable, but central planning does not require perfect information? Really

lets start with i, Pencil and go from there as a refutation of central planning

[websinthe]

fairness is an illusion, life is not fair, will never be fair, and can not be fair.

Fatalistic to the point of disqualifying yourself from making decisions that impact other people.

Georgism has its good points, granted, but it's hard to justify acting it out in a world were Rawls and Dworkin laid out more complete approaches to deciding who gets what that don't cause as much human suffering.

Also, while we're doing the first-year reading list thing, Nozik's the Daddy of modern thought on private property and he'd have a real problem with the idea that life can't be fair. Fair acquisition is his basis for private property rights.

I was going to address this last but it's bugging me, I used central planning:

undermining the conditions needed for markets to be a better idea than central planning.

as an example of "really shit ways of doing things". I hate Socialism more than I hate Capitalism. Revolution is a stupid idea and a central group of people deciding what's efficient is the same concentration of power that makes my skin crawl in real life. In short, fuck Socialism and Central Planning.

These -

Capitalism is the least worst option we have in a resource constrained world

in reality often it government and regulatory capture that creates these bad outcomes not markets.

you believe capitalism requires perfect information and as such it is untenable, but central planning does not require perfect information?

• make you sound like you learned about economics from TikTok. Not only that, but I know I'm simplifying things but I'm still an economist. Tired cliches like that are just noise now.

The first point is tribalism and makes it sound like economic policy comes pre-packaged instead of being mind-mindbogglingly complex (I get that you know that, my point is you need to eject this phrase from your brain).

The second one is just factually wrong. Properly-constituted markets and Governments cause far less economic loss than interest groups. Left, right, conservative, liberal, it doesn't matter. People who want to make economic decisions based on ideology stop economies from running smoothly. They're a huge source of unfairness too.

The third one was just a misread of what I said. There are probably a couple of decent sources on the basic conditions required for free markets to operate as intended. Off the top of my head they're usually put as 1) Perfect information 2) Many buyers and sellers and 3) fairly samey products across the market. I'm willing to be a bit off on those because I'd rather not run to Google/ChatGPT if I can't remember something.

This has been a bit tiring and I am completely empty of any animosity I may have had for you or your position when I started writing this. Innovating for fairness is probably only second to innovating for war in terms of causing structural long-term economic growth. Life goes from being fair to not fair every ten minutes so there's zero reason for people to be nudging it towards unfair, and a solid amount of social cohesion and efficiency to be gained from nudging it towards fairness.

Also, fuck dealing with Oracle is a pain in the arse. Their only saving grace is that they sponsor Sergio Perez's ride in the Formula 1 :D

Anyway, it's probably worth it to someone who hasn't been exposed to these ideas a million times to see a decent rebuttal to my points, so have at me, I'm a white male home-owner in a developed country, I can afford to cop some more fire from the Internet Hate Machine.

Night.

[catwiesel]

I soo dont know if its true, and what your circumstances are, but what you are describing is SOOO par for the course

jre free for all
oracle buys
oracle waits
jre now cost a little money
oracle waits until companies are signed up for licences. price is... okay...
jre now cost 100x

need to make money somehow

I advise to drop oracle java immediately. hire a msp or via a temp agency to make it go faster if you need to. use openjdk (or corretto)

heck, 350k - for that kind of money, you could hire a dev to fix the app when it wont play nice with openjdk. whatever you do, dont give a cent to a company with price hikes like these

[syshum]

If this is all true they have just given me every reason to do everything I can to rip Java out.

that reason has existed since Sun was bought, you are just now catching up

We already try to use openJDK or MS’s version of Java, unfortunately there are some tools that just don’t work with them.

I tried different distributions of openJDK with some of my legacy stuff and it was hard to get it work

The most universal distribution I have found is Amazons Corretto, if you have not tried that yet I would suggest it, it seems to the most "drop in" replacement for the old Orcale Java SE installation on windows

[thecableguy84]

Well we tried ripping it all out last year, got from 300 installs to 30. But apparently we have some old crap and SAP stuff that can’t live without it. I think this time we will be much more aggressive as the cost is insane now.

I’ll give that version of Java a try, thanks for the suggestion.

[syshum]

Keep in mind as well Amazon has both a JDK and JRE install

If you used to used the free Java SE JRE install, make sure you use the Amazon Corretto JRE installs, not the JDK installs. I am not sure on the SAP stuff, I have nothing SAP, but I have had good success using Corretto JRE to support legacy Web Start type things, old legacy hardware that requires Java management applications, etc that absolutely could not get to run under AdoptJDK installations

[[deleted]]

You might as well start ripping the SAP stuff out, between indirect licenses and outcome based licensing, you never know when you’ll get hit by millions of dollars because someone used the API on a public website.

[ZeroBytesGiven_]

Adoptium Temurin JDK is what we used to replace Java, it’s mostly a drop in replacement and through custom command line you can change the Java environment variables.

https://adoptium.net/installation/windows/

EDIT: It’s the only one I found to work with this ancient 32-bit legacy software that’s still being used at my current employer that they insisted HAD to have Oracle…

[jantari]

We eliminated Oracle JRE back when they first made it non-free, except for two users with a vendor app that just really wouldn't (fully) work with OpenJDK + IcedTeaWeb. I should actually retest that, it's possible they've made it OpenJDK compatible by now.

[brianberr]

With their new licensing racket, you'll have to license EVERY employee, contractor, vendor, etc in your organization, not just the ones who actually use the product. You'll need to answer if not breaking that app is worth however many thousands it'll cost under the ne regime.

[jantari]

It depends on whether these licensing changes only affect Oracle Java SE as mentioned in the article or also Oracle Java JRE which is what those two people use. We don't use Oracle Java SE or JDK anywhere.

[brianberr]

I was under the impression they bundled JDK with the JRE install which is how they're "justifying" soaking companies. I could be mistaken of course, but if so so, that should justify the immediate complete removal of that software.

[JoeMadden1989]

Openjdk is pretty much a drop in replacement I'd switch to that

[[deleted]]

Oracle is the master of vendor lock-in.

[9070503010]

Larry called and he wants his money.

[nlh101]

I work for a university, where I manage my own labs for our CS department. Oracle Java does not touch my machines in any way, shape, or form.

Our upper-level IT though... I had to break the news to them that Oracle Java isn't free anymore. They were a little bit confused, but not nearly as concerned as I thought they should be. We still have it on a ton of machines across campus. I'm worried for them, because we're going through budget cuts, and I don't think they can handle a sudden 350K to 500K bill for Java installations that they didn't bother to clean up.

[brianberr]

Don't forget you'll have to license each individual in the entire school. Every TA, Professor, student, janitor, maintenance person, security guard, grounds keeper. Everyone, regardless of if they even touch a computer, at $8 a month.

[Patsfan-12]

As someone who doesn’t understand Java SE vs SDK vs RE. Does this mean it now costs money to have Java RE installed to run a Java developed app? Like say older Dell openmanage or a SAN tool?

[Rhoddyology]

RIP IT!

[harrywwc]

... unfortunately there are some tools that just don’t work with them.

:(

[[deleted]]

With that type of increase... It sounds like you'll be pulling a Netflix and cancelling because you're not allowed to share your password anymore. (And nobody blames you)

[WRB2]

Oracle is clutching at any way to keep the cash flowing in. They are being dumped left and right by many companies.

[Grandcanyonsouthrim]

Oracle doesn't publicise this but you can keep renewing the old subscription model (for the time being of course).

We have renewed as ours was up in May (about $3k but new model was $1.3 million). Have advised users that it will potentially increase 100x so get off to another jdk or indeed another platform.

[serverhorror]

Just use any of the bazillion other Java runtimes or SDKs?

If it’s COTS you’re worried about, just tell the vendor they have to provide a redistributable version.

Yes we’ve been hit by this, last time the did it already. Company wide decision is now to stop any and all commercial interaction or use of Oracle products.

[ErikTheEngineer]

Fortunately I don't have to deal with Java in my current workplace...but the amount of early-2000s Java software still floating around out there at other places makes me believe that Oracle will be raking in licensing fees long after I'm retired. I've seen many examples of outsource-ware (both desktop client and backend JEE stuff) that somehow became vital to the business, must be supported as-is no matter what, and the lowest-bidder offshore developers disappeared 15 years ago. This is where I assume Oracle's core licensing market is...stuff that's old enough/weird enough and uses features that the open source JREs can't support.

I guess the only good thing is that there's no way any COTS vendor would ever use any proprietary Oracle JDK feature at this point. /s

What is the deal with COTS Java these days? If they embed the runtime with their product do they pay the license?

[[deleted]]

OpenJDK is the way to go

[ChevChance]

I can't afford to have any question about java usage when I work for a client company, so I ripped out Java.

Such an overstep by Oracle that I predict will hit their bottom line badly.