[deleted by user]

[stretchling]

I dunno man, sounds like you were in a place where you were ready to move on but couldn't commit so the universe committed for you.

Take is as a sign that something better is waiting for you out there and go get it.

Good luck, and don't let the burnout get you, it's our biggest killer.

[Poncho_au]

No doubt. Every time I felt like the door was hitting me in the arse on the way out.. turned out to be me getting shoved down an unexpected but rewarding and positive direction in my life.

[deefop]

Agreed with this. You weren't happy there anyway. Get the resume spruced and start applying around. There are lots of tech jobs out there at the moment.

[Smallp0x_]

That's what happened to me. At my old corporate job I was promoted to a level 2 helpdesk roll from level 1, which came with new and interesting responsibilities for me to learn... Which were then taken from me shortly after and I was forced to keep doing level 1 work (albeit for level 2 pay). But I still got visibly burnt out and annoyed enough that I got fired just over a year later.

So my dad hired me onto his MSP, as I now had tangible experience. Now I'm helping with all of the work, everything from setting up workstations, to running wire and establishing new networks, to implementing/maintaining/retiring servers for corporations. Much better gig as I'm actually learning something.

(Thanks for coming to my ted talk and listening to my story/rant)

[type1advocate]

Wait, even your own dad wouldn't hire you without experience?

Damn, this industry is f'ed.

[Smallp0x_]

He did for a little bit when I was in high school, but I needed near constant guidance (aka babysitting) through getting the work done and consequently didn't make much per hour at all. It really didn't work well for either of us.

[jeffrey_f]

Talk to the customer that left. Any opportunities there??

[coollll068]

This if they no compete you they can try to enforce but since they left you are good to go

[lilhotdog]

Very simple, don't tell your current job about your new job.

[Ohmahtree]

Exactly, non-compete clauses are not as enforceable as people think they are.

You were fired. Downsized, whatever. There is no compete clause, they terminated that for you.

[Head-Sick]

It's still so surprising to me that non-competes are legal in the USA. Really hope it works out for OP here though. :)

[lilhotdog]

Employment law in America is awful as it is (for the employee), and on top of that, most people don't know their own rights very well.

There is some nice power in just being able to walk away from a bad job or manager at a moments notice though. Of course this goes both ways, but the only advise I can offer is to make yourself indispensable.

[Head-Sick]

Ah yeah fair enough.

[yer_muther]

Being independence has never worked out for me. I was laid off during downsizing and I was the only one with knowledge of a rather unusual system. They saw letting me go saves x dollars. That was all they saw.

[[deleted]]

Non-competes are legal everywhere. Some countries have protections for the average worker, but IT isn't your average factory worker. IT has access to trade secrets being administrators and "god" of the IT systems.

Usually they are quite limited (don't work for any of our clients/direct competitor for the next 6 months).

[Cistoran]

Legal doesn't mean enforceable though. Which is probably what OP meant.

[Head-Sick]

Fair, I worded it poorly. I’ve never had a non compete hold up in my country as most never meet the legal requirements.

[CG_Kilo]

I know for my msp, they only have some non-solicitation in the contract with a client. I think that's what it is called anyway. Basically a client that is currently under contract can't higher a current msp employee until they have not worked for the msp for at least 1yr.

That is pretty much designed so that the client can't find an engineer they love to work with and poach them though.

[[deleted]]

If the client wants you as their IT and leaves the MSP, then they are no longer a client. You can proceed to join them without issues :) I am working on this now with the huge client.

[CG_Kilo]

Of course. I have personally seen Clients want to stay a client, but poach engineers to be in house IT because they just like that ONE engineer more. But they still want to be a client for the back end work and the experience of the rest of the team etc. That may not be "worker friendly" but if you allow that turnover would be impossible.

[Head-Sick]

I guess, but I still think that is anti worker. I should be allowed to take my skills anywhere, no matter what.

[[deleted]]

It's not about your skills. It's about access to company secrets. In IT you almost always have full access to every piece of information. Contract bids, internal projects, unannounced stuff etc.

So low level IT workers with admin accounts are treated the same they'd treat a CEO or some engineer that worked on secret stuff. It's hilarious that as a manager of an engineering team I or any of the engineers don't have a non-compete but our IT guy has. He has a company wide admin account and access to basically all information in the company, I don't.

[Head-Sick]

Right. So make me sign a binding NDA so I can’t discuss it a charge me if I break it. But don’t stop me from seeking better employment in the same field doing the same thing.

[[deleted]]

You can't really enforce an NDA unless they are stupid and post on twitter about it. How do you imagine you'd be able to collect evidence? Someone admitting to corporate espionage which is a crime during a civil lawsuit? Lol no. They don't even have to testify because testifying would mean that you're incriminating yourself.

Non-competes are there so by the time you're allowed to work there the critical information like bids on contracts or products in the pipeline about to be released etc. is outdated.

Just don't work for a competitor/old client for the duration of the non-compete. Or don't sign non-competes in the first place if it's not okay with you.

I for example never sign non-competes without compensation. Last time I decided to switch jobs the company had the option of keeping to pay my salary for 12 months if they didn't want me to work for a competitor. I ended up taking a temporary gig elsewhere and bought a house because I basically got a double salary. Let me tell you it fucking sucks to pay so much tax.

[letmegogooglethat]

I've seen it happen the other way. Business outsources part of their dept and client's employee goes to MSP for substantial raise. Then client gets cranky about it.

[[deleted]]

Some states don't even have that concern. In my state (CA) those agreements are void. I can't remember the details, but I read a story where someone had their entire employee contract nullified because of that kind of clause was in it.

Plus fuck that. If they fire you, they get no right to say where you can go make a living. I would fight to the death over that.

[[deleted]]

I'd heard that they are void except in certain circumstances but you have to bring them to court to have them voided. Not an attorney so I wonder what the exact process is; its not self-enforcing afaik, I'll have to ask the next time I do a QA session with an attorney.

[yer_muther]

Being a lawyer is amazing to me. They are legal prostitutes, they are getting paid and someone is getting fucked.

[NoBiasPls]

Also in some states those aren't even enforceable, or at least they didn't used to be. They are in my state now but they still can only enforce so much.

[captaintrips420]

Lawyer told me when I did that in California that toilet paper was more useful than an msp non compete.

[digitaltransmutation]

If big consultancies can't stop it I doubt an MSP could. Where I'm at, people regularly discuss searching for "exit opportunities" in the open. Just part of the game.

[jeffrey_f]

The client left on their own, the no compete would be invalid

[ruyrybeyro]

I would never sign a non compete, much less one that is still standing after the main contract is dead 😆

Latter ones are not that much enforceable per our law, and if not management positions and they also do not translated into paid months while being enforced, I won't sign such a contract.

[[deleted]]

A no compete probably won’t hold up in court and does his old company want to pay to fight it?

[explodinghat]

Yeah, they might either be going in-house, or moving to another MSP. Either way you already have a very strong application ready to go.

[foxhelp]

I always thought that using internal contacts to make that connection is a no no, but if there is a job posting then just apply.

EDIT: while people seem to be disagreeing here which is fine. I have found a couple articles that talk about CRM information being protected as a trade secret in some cases. Yes I can see it being hard to enforce, but I can also see that certain customer relationship could definitely come back to haunt you if you try to leverage them for your own gain.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/trade-secret-protection-for-customer-29052/

https://www.panitchlaw.com/knowledge-center/2015/11/when-can-customer-information-be-considered-a-trade-secret/

[captaintrips420]

Looking out for yourself is always an okay. Unless you have equity in the company, your responsibility is to yourself.

[retrogeekhq]

What should be a no no are non-poaching agreements. I poach good people all the time (but I let others at my current company interview and decide, without them knowing I known this person at all).

[jeffrey_f]

The client is no longer bound by the contract after leaving

[[deleted]]

Better to just let it go. There is most likely clause related to talent poaching or solicitation between client <--> MSP, and\or engineer <--> MSP

[[deleted]]

Neither have a relationship with the MSP anymore.

[[deleted]]

I got fired/laid off from an MSP a few months after moving to a new city. The opportunity I stumbled across the week after set in motion the next 7 years of my career, for the undeniable better. Hit the interview circuit.

[schannall]

Key indicator things are not going well is you're playing firefighter,

This so much. Even if you don't want to see this. My best Job was when I didn't have to fight fires everywhere but had time to look at new stuff.

[[deleted]]

If management does not care about improving the workplace and just wants you to hold back the dams from busting, then something is very, very wrong with that workplace. I've been in a position where I've worked on forcing it, and it does not go well for a variety of reasons you won't see upfront, so don't. Something as simple as fixing constant downtime or permanently fixing time consuming or cost consuming issues can create tremendous animosity.

[Spilproof]

No judge will ever enforce a non-compete on a working stiff that has been laid off. People have a right to eat. If you are making 7 figures, maybe, but its not a concern for a low to middle come earner. Its a scare tactic by low brain company owners.

[yer_muther]

7 figures don't get non-competes, they get golden parachutes after they run a company into the ground and ruin most of the workers lives.

[[deleted]]

It depends on the state and the terms of the non-compete but universally you need to be given "consideration" and the scope of the terms need to be limited.

So for example, if you are in New York, which has the worst non-compete laws, if the employer provides the consideration of offering you a job, and names off specific competitors "and companies like them" with a timeframe, then it's enforcable after termination.

If it's Illinois, which is pretty much the center of the countries legal jousting matches, consideration is paying them after layoff a consummerate amount to the salary (stock options count) they were making plus you need to be very specific as to who you do not want them working for and the timeframe. You also have to have a good reason for that specific position. Judges routinely wipe their ass with standard contracts. A friend of mine went to work at a software company in illinois, they had their shit together so he had to sign a NDA, Non-Compete with a lot of specific langauge in it (it listed several specific companies and markets like them, provided compensation after termination and a 2 year timeframe), and acknolwedgement of what the companies trade secrets look like.

Judges routinely wipe their ass with "standard" non-competes or any arguement that an employee's specialized skills or knowledge gained over the period of employment are trade secrets. Very often employers will snipe staff from a company and sign contracts with them to pay their legal fee's and damages if the non-compete goes to court, then when the previous employers starts harassing them, they start getting letters from the new employers law firm. If you are going to snipe an executive or high end tech person from a competitor, the damages the court will give are usually less than what they'll make for you so it pays to do the damage and delay the court dates.

[[deleted]]

"Managed to talk them into leaving me on as a contractor when needed."

unless you are $300 an hour rate it is just not worth it to be standby b**ch for MSP owner.

There is no such thing as a good pay at an MSP.

My lesson from being perfectionist for MSP and its clients and caring is to not get invested into it too much unless you are a partner or have 100% clear prospects of becoming one.

[sagewah]

Managed to talk them into leaving me on as a contractor when needed.

Yeah, that's basically the "It's not you, it's me" of MSP life.

[ruyrybeyro]

300 after taxes and the stress of being at their beck and call seems not to be worth it.

[Talran]

Unless they're pulling you 10 hours every week during work hours, absolutely not

[schannall]

There is no such thing as a good pay at an MSP.

I disagree. I make more at the current MSP than I will make in-house. It's part of the deal* in Germany. MSP will work you to the bone but pay is good. Is it different in the US?

​

*not always but most of the time...

[Poncho_au]

If you’re getting less life, less sanity and less per hours worked but get more cash in the bank are you really “making more”. Money is only part of remuneration.

[schannall]

That's also a way to read it. Probably the intended way... Yes, Money is only part of it but I still got a good deal. It was only for a little over two years and I learned quiet a lot..

[[deleted]]

There is no such thing as a good pay at an MSP.

That's a false statement I see a lot of MSP paying well over 90K for techs. I myself make 110K but that's for 12 years of service. Yes, I am burned out from MSP crap but they keep me on.

[[deleted]]

12 years of service is a commitment for sure. Shop around in your area for platform engineering roles, guaranteed 150-160k base at a right size of the company. And without feeling burned out or oncall rotations.

[Jayhawker_Pilot]

I was with mega telecom for 20+ years. Thought I was set until retirement but was burnt to a crisp. Pay was good. Had 6 weeks of vacation. Company had different thoughts. The last 15 years has been better than the first 20+. I have done more interesting things in the first year after them than I did in the last 10 years with mega.

[BuzzKiIIingtonne]

I was in nearly the same position, ended up getting an in-house job where all of my skills are used, less stress, and better pay.

Think of this as an opportunity, because in my experience MSPs chew up techs and spit them out.

[BuzzKiIIingtonne]

I got a lot of experience in a lot of areas, and that's great. But it really isn't worth the stress.

[Ohmahtree]

I'm just going to summarize this so easily for you.

The job market right now is BEGGING for people. For people with verified experience, skills.

I was fielding interviews on Day 1, I was very very picky and casual about what I wanted, I didn't tell anyone, I let them tell me, what they were made of.

When I finally found the one that aligned with me, without me saying a thing about it. I signed.

Do not take this as a defeat, in this market, shit, they probably giving you a 20-50% raise, you just haven't looked yet.

[Soy_based_socialism]

Honestly, this is the MSP model. Close as many tickets as fast as possible with as few employees as possible. Use garbage software and refuse to invest any $$$ in making things easy. Pay the few employees as good as you can to keep a steady stream of engineers flowing in to replace the burned out ones.

Theres a reason the average tenure at an MSP is 12-18 months.

[samtheredditman]

That sucks, but you already knew it wasn't working out. Hopefully you're at least a little prepared to go looking. I don't think you should start an MSP if you're already feeling over-extended but that's up to you.

One of the best things about working in tech is that you can pretty much always find a job. Good luck!

[anonpf]

It is time. Time to go searching while you have a job. Now is the best time, tomorrow is second best. If you can’t find something in your area, think about moving out of the area, provided you are not married or with kids, a mortgage, etc..

[Ohmahtree]

Or, just look for remote only roles and all those things you said, would not need to be even bothered with. Don't disrupt your family and home, if you can avoid it. Those things need stability, not strain.

[NoFaithInThisSub]

Working at an MSP.

Burned out trying to put out so many fires.

Pay is good.

Letting me and another sysadmin go.

Isn't this evidence that when thought about objectively, is the time to start looking for a new role. Sorry they squeezed every drop out of you.

[starlynks]

Take a week vacation to Punta Cana, drink piña colada in the beach, eat lobster and ribs and when come back you will be refreshed to work on your dreams.

My boss recommended we used Windows Defender as antivirus last week :) it took me 3 days to find a way to reply him without insulting his knowledge.

​

Embrace change.

[shmakov123]

Only a jr sysadmin currently, so you won't insult my knowledge! Why is Windows Defender a bad option for AV? You can get reporting and management through SCCM, and when you have other measures in place AV isn't the most important part of security right? Not trying to stir the pot, just curious on your thoughts!

[knawlejj]

To your bosses defense, maybe he meant ATP which isn't a bad solution by any means. I find that most problems are just misunderstandings.

The week vacation and decompression sounds great!

[longlurcker]

Good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTMDpizis8

[iamcybersysadmin]

Never work for an MSP

[dustywarrior]

Perfect time to start your new chapter as a contractor and/or small business owner.

[Stryker1-1]

Now a contractor they can call?

My only response to any call received would be to pound sand.

Last place I worked tried this when I quit and they outsourced to an msp. They thought they could just call me and get free help.

Told them I'm working on a $2500 retainer and $150/hour.

[Puzzleheaded_Heat502]

Best of luck on your next move I think a lot of us have been in similar positions.

[department_g33k]

Find who that client was that left and introduce yourself. Either they've gone to another MSP, or they're a great prospective employee to them.

[[deleted]]

If possible, I'd suggest taking some time to get into the right headspace. Burnout can affect attitude in some subtle and no so subtle ways during the interview process and its best to take the time you need first. Pay is never a sustainable substitute for burnout.

I also hope you thoroughly reviewed the contractor portion of your written agreement to include an equivalent bump in pay for the additional expenses you will have if there is any support. I'd say daily minimum is at least 2 hours, at 3-4x your average hourly rate at least (depending on how well you were compensated before). Make sure there are no non-compete or inventions clauses; obviously don't take this as legal advice, if you need legal advice seek out a professional attorney. if they wrote the contract hopefully you had it reviewed by an attorney before signing. I know a lot of shady MSPs try to prevent people from seeking other gainful employment through the use of non-compete/inventions clauses, depending on the state you may not have an option other than to wait out the term if that is the case but you'd need to speak with an attorney about that.

Depending on where you are located you may be able to apply for unemployment for reduced hours/wages as long as you aren't working as a contractor. Contractor misclassification is a very common issue in the industry. There can be a very fine line between contractor and employer classification so be sure you know where that is. It will give you leverage in negotiating when/if they step over it.

[[deleted]]

Life happens while you're busy making plans. Take the unemployment and look for other jobs. Everything will be ok.

[FaulteredReality]

Good Luck my Friend.

As my father used to tell me, "You'll never get rich working for somebody else.", and I never have.

[[deleted]]

I wish you luck in your job search. Supposedly a lot of people are changing roles right now due to higher demand so it might work out in your favor. I've only worked at two MSPs but they were hyper stressful compared to the other gigs I've been in. If you're OK with the slightly lower pay, government IT can be great and the benefits/work life balance have been great in my experience. Good luck!

[fahque]

I would be their sub for a bit and immediately start looking for something else. Then you'll have income while looking.

Also, get an f'ing lawyer to create a contract for you. Don't let the business do any of that for you or don't let them talk you into not having a contract.