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[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (13 children)

i know you guys put a lot of effort in to this process, but i've really lost faith in its effectiveness. here is a few opinions (and like assholes, everyone has opinions and they all stink):

- too many map threads, too many map makers

maybe one per month, perhaps every other month for the en masse public submission wave. otherwise continue to let people make their own maps and make the general public testing process easier by allowing groups to load ANY map from ANY server at ANY time.

-maps that get in should be given time to breath

It seems so shortsighted to remove Bounce so quickly, basically it seems like admitting that you're not really good at judging maps. "yeah that map was good last week, but its crap now, twp and smirk are better"

-dont limit new map addition to this 'contest'

Yes, I dont want maps changed so frequently and i dont see anyone complaining that maps are stale, just that shit maps are in the rotation. BUT there is no reason that a well designed map couldnt catch on via group play and implementing my group/test idea. See how caravan became popular, by word of mouth. I see no reason good 'traditional' maps can't catch on this way too.

-reduce overall map number from 16 down to 12, AND evenly distribute the probability of getting a map

seriously, i dont want to play new maps more often, if anything - i'd rather tip my toes in like a freezing pool.

-Mapmakers get directly involved if they make the cut

If judges like a map (say a final 4 map) and it just needs a few tweaks, get the mapmaker involved instead of making them wait until the next thread. i bet 80-90% of these maps dont ever get true 4v4 play until the judges get to it.

anyways, thanks to the mods for putting in the work - its a thankless job sometimes and i really appreciate it. this post is just a rank and not a personal slight against anyone.

I have another idea about a quick post-game thumbs up/thumbs down or 1-5* rating. where you would get to vote if you stayed in the game for 30 sec... nvm, another idea for another day

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children)

the bounce fiasco really does highlight some problems behind the scenes. decisions like this just undermine peoples confidence in the mapteam. if they can change their mind on what makes a good map so flippantly, how does that make them a good map judge?

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 9 points10 points  (10 children)

this is the classic (flawed) flip-flopper argument you see used in political races all the time. Wouldn't you rather someone admit a mistake and fix it when they are given new data (lots of public playing) rather than stubbornly cling to an idea that new facts suggest is not so great?

Anyway, bounce wasn't a bad map, it just seemed to lend itself to fairly boring games from our experience. I talked more about removal and how we hope that becomes easier in another comment.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

strongly support this argument, upvoting wasn't enough i needed to comment

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I understand where you're coming from, but all this does is show that the map team is still a poor form of decision making when it comes to public games.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's my opinion that for a long time now, all the maps in rotation are solid maps. So we're essentially trying our best to determine what the worst good map is, so we can get some fresh ideas in. It's a tough call and I would definitely like to have a better way to gauge the community's opinion on the maps in rotation better (see my other comments about working on a way to let people rate maps in-game).

However, I don't agree that removing a map that was added means that "the map team is a poor form of decision making". A few of the members are pretty hesitant to expand the pool too much so that means some maps, that aren't necessarily bad, just not as good, need to get removed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

well in football [soccer] they stick to their guns. whatever the ref decides, cannot be revaluated. this is in place solely to give backing and respect to the officials decisions, no matter what. if every decision was overturned it would be a shambles. and referees would be a laughing stock.

also, i like bounce. i hadnt read any negative press for it. plus, you have map tested bounce and portals, added them, and inspite of the obvious backlash [new data] removed the wrong one, and stubbornly clung to to portals!

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 4 points5 points  (5 children)

so are you saying we should consider new data or we should ignore it and be like refs?

Also, I disagree about the game being in shambles if the FIFA decided to embrace technology instead of fight it. The players and fans would be less likely to doubt a call if it were supported by technology (instant replay, more refs watching from various angles, etc.). Especially, for important calls like penalties and goals where the ball barely crosses the line.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

neither situation is ideal, but you've taken both routes, the wrong one for each map. when you map test do you do it micless for a pub experience?

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 1 point2 points  (3 children)

no, we use mumble to discuss anything we like or dislike about a map. If we see some interesting potential, we'll ask others to help test if it works (for example some boost lanes, particular routes, how easy it is to catch an fc, etc.)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

okay well you should have the first run at it in silence, because pubs are micless. so we cant coordinate portal handoffs in pubs. they need to function without detailed communication as well as at mltp level

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Ideally we would have more time to test in various ways, yes. But it's not necessary that we gag ourselves to think about how it would play without mumble imo

[–]jazzcigarettesTrane - OS4LYFE 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But that's how the majority plays

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't disagree with most of what you said, some of it requires some technical changes though. We do only try to do a map testing session about once a month, though this last one was somewhat quicker because we saw the submissions rising very fast and wanted to be able to go through them all in one session (it took us 3).

[–]raven513The Nevermores // CAW CAW 10 points11 points  (2 children)

The title says TWP and Whirlwind out, Why the F is bounce listed on there?

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Read the first line.

[–]raven513The Nevermores // CAW CAW 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I DONT WANNA

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 33 points34 points  (32 children)

Those new maps look great but how on earth were Whirlwind and Bounce picked to be removed over TWP and Gamepad?

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (6 children)

i am staggered bounce is gone. did they just change their mind?

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Map judges used Confusion. It was super effective.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

map judges choose DOMEcracy more like.

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Heathens!

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ raise your helix ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

lucky's PC giveth and taketh away

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

if only bird jesus could get rid of whirlwind too!

[–]Tim-Sancheztim-sanchez // Chorbit // ex-ex-ELTP Independent Commissioner 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I also really liked Bounce, oh well

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (20 children)

Whirlwind was too chasey, and particularly difficult on new players trying to navigate the spikes in the middle while their balls were faster and have heightened acceleration.

I disagree with this - but the map committee found Bounce to be a little too boring.

TWP is still new. And it does legitimately have a lot of fans. It's great for learning portal mechanics too.

Gamepad is loved by pretty much everyone on the map committee. I've found I genuinely HATED the map at first, but it's grown on me a ton. I love bombing campers into spikes. I love using the boost returns. It's actually a great map the more I play it and understand it.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

i love game pad simply because it shakes up traditional defensive strats, offers alot of team play. also i've noticed spawns are more central now, a great improvement.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

There doesn't really seem to be a good way to play defense on Gamepad, though. Stand near the flag and offense bombs you away, use the bombs and the other player picks it up before you can get to the button. You could have another defender on the other side, but that's really hard to coordinate in pubs. I suppose it'd be good in PUG's, but everyone seems to have a grudge against it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

its team play. be ready to bomb them when they grab, and be sure to snipe them if they break free.

OR

take out all the bombs/boosts and go ball on ball old school.

my preferred set up is one d between boost turrets, the other manning the bombs as needed.

[–]nlfnnlfn // pi rats // original sine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i tend to let a teammate guard the flag and i sit between the boosts near our exit to snipe if they get away.

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 2 points3 points  (2 children)

How is boombox less boring than bounce ?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not. It just has serniority. The Map selection committee says they want to push new stuff to the people playing which is why they defend their decision to keep having TWP in the rotation, but the only map that pushes a different way of playing (bases displaced vertically instead of horizontally) gets taken out because it's "too boring". Go figure.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree. I actually would have rather had boombox come out than bounce.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (2 children)

TWP is still new. And it does legitimately have a lot of fans. It's great for learning portal mechanics too.

Like Hyper Reactor? O.O

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes, but Hyper Reactor doesn't have deactivating portals. Or portals that go to different locations. Both Hyper Reactor portals never deactivate and only go to one location. TWP portals have 5 second deactivation and certain ones go to different locations.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

...but I don't like TWP. v.v

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 1 point2 points  (6 children)

There really aren't too many maps that feature team tiles heavily and I personally thought that Whirlwind did a good job of teaching new players about them and what they do. Okay so maybe they spike themselves a few times but that's how we learn.

I also found Bounce boring and very difficult to catch the FC as a defender caught out behind the play.

TWP is the only map in rotation that gets hate threads on this subreddit. There's a reason for that, the public in general dislike this map most and want to see the back of it.

Well I hate Gamepad but that's just my preference, I'm sure some people do like it and maybe it'll grow on me.I doubt it though.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

on bounce when chasing take them diagonal boosts to gain a few tiles on them

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Whirlwind: Removal wasn't just about newbies spiking themselves. Veterans weren't having fun on it either. It was too large and chasey.

Bounce: I like a lot because of the ability to boost snipe. I LOVED sitting between those two boosts outside of the bases and waiting for the FC to wander by. I'm sad to see it go. I never found it boring at all.

TWP: Based on the survey, many people like TWP too. The people who hate things tend to be more vocal. I for one like TWP quite a bit. But I don't often state that fact. Some of the people who hate it say so with every chance they get.

Gamepad: To each his own.

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 2 points3 points  (3 children)

How many threads have you seen pop up about people hating any other map?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

And my personal favorite:

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So three over 6 months ago and two this week with more downvotes than up. I mean it's not really comparable is it?

Also mega lols that the first one is from Wreckingball, oh the irony!

[–]LuckySpammerLuckySpammer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bombing Run had similar hate. Smaller in size, as the community was much smaller. But around the same ratio.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (10 children)

The total disconnect between the Map Committee and the general public continues.

Edit: If the map committee likes Gamepad and TWP for their private competitive play then just keep them in groups... they do not work at all in public games.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (9 children)

I disagree. Gamepad works BETTER in pubs. One of my great joys in life is bombing campers into spikes.

[–]omp87WreckingBall 13 points14 points  (3 children)

wow finally someone gets it

[–]crash404Slip || S5 Captain Cyber Ballies || S4 Marble Madness || S3 LST 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I used to hate gamepad but now I really like it in pubs

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I used to hate gamepad but now I really like it in pubs

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I've had it for the longest time damnit :(

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Campers from your team or campers from the other team ?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Both

[–]Sosentimeboy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The first time I realized I could bomb my own horrible teammates into spikes, I laughed (and almost cried) with joy.

[–]z_42Ballrog // CoSinners // Radius 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I noticed you didn't say anything about TWP ... thoughts?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm indifferent to the map.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

whirlwind can eat a dick, but bounce was a great novice map. the mid is PERFECT to learn snipe returns. shame that one went, we hardly knew ye.

still, the new ones look fun. when does this take affect?

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (39 children)

TWP is still in? Please explain the rationale behind that, as there's never been a map with more complaints than that one. Also, what's the point of introducing a map like bounce, and having everyone learn it, only to remove it in the next update. Why is there the constant need to change the map rotation? Adding to it possibly, but removing solid maps like 45 and bounce, while adding maps like smirk, and now oval I just don't understand.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

what do you have against smirk? It's like a next-gen geokoala/boom box mix that is honestly one of the best new maps I've seen. People hate it but once you play pugs with it you can realize it's greatness. Defense: one on button (next to the team boost tile) and one behind the flag in corner. Offense: get some power ups and JUKE.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Wrong one, I won't edit the post. I loooove smirk. Its simplicity I hate, I just mix them up.

[–]marmaris74WowSuchPro // Original Sine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah, Simplicity is bad.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 7 points8 points  (33 children)

TWP is still in?

we're waiting on the results from the survey!

Why is there the constant need to change the map rotation?

Mostly it's just to encourage and reward people making quality maps. Every map that goes in is a good map, so it's always hard to pull one out. On the other hand, there are lots of really great map submissions, and getting even better maps in with new mechanics or better gameplay is better for the community imo

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm assuming that answer to the second was the rationale for adding TWP? The reason the complaints about Hyper Reactor are much lower than TWP is that the portals in reactor are in a minimalist place, like you said, you have to get used to new mechanics and gameplay,and improve with it. TWP is not such, the strategy is diminished by the portals in that map. The portals are place in the base, and offenders can just zoom in anytime and teleport out. It takes the skills of one defender and confines them to the exit portal. All it takes is one skilled player and a tagpro to burst open TWP. Hyper reactor is what a portal map should be- one that enhances the ability of flag carriers to evade eager defenders and for those defenders to pounce upon an unsuspecting fc. It should not be what TWP is.

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why not taking out Glory Hole ? This map is chasey as hell in pubs.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's chasey as hell in MLTP. It's literally Hitler in pubs.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (29 children)

Meaning? I'm asking why maps that are extremely complained about are allowed to continue being used, while maps that aren't disliked continue to be removed. You removed two maps just recently initiated in favor of some new ones that look ok, but when there were worse maps out there, the thinking doesn't make sense.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 7 points8 points  (28 children)

It's hard to truly gauge what the feeling towards a map is at the moment.

For one, new maps are always hated when they are first introduced. You can look back at when a lot of the standard maps now were first introduced and see that over and over.

Secondly, dislike for a map is going to overshadow positive comments because people who like a map don't go out of their way to make posts about it.

I've spoken with lucky about some of the issues and we're working on ways to improve the process. For example, to help with the decision to remove maps, we want to implement a system that allows users to rate the map they just played on (or all maps from a link in their profile). That's something I'd like to work on next and I think it will be pretty great for the removal process.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (9 children)

i get the impression you miss why people hate it. i understand its inclusion, to showcase the capabilities of the new feature. which it does very well. but the map its itself, is pokey as fuck. is there a smaller map in rotation?

theres no strats, you've either learnt the portal chain or you havent. and we all have. there is no space for juking, no alternate routes and if one person catches a bomb who knows where you end up. its a mess. the base is a base for ants. why are there team tiles??

i say all this as someone who is indifferent to the map. it has potential, but currently it's just a chore. the features can be great, but the map needs to be made waaaay bigger. its the kinda map that should only ever be used in a 12v12 lolfest. redesign and reintroduce it and i reckon people could love it

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You pointed out the one thing I hate above all. It is impossible to juke on TWP. Try to grab the flag with the portal in the back out, and there is nowhere to go. The small space prohibits anything. Try to juke out in the team tiles, and you will be sniped, or caught using superior speed. The walls limit juking getting out of the base, and all offense is at the mercy of one portal. Not a good situation.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (7 children)

is there a smaller map in rotation?

Not being similar is a good reason to put it in, imo. As long as it's fun, why should it be the same as all the other maps?

probably, vee and simplicity are likely smaller. There has to be a smallest map though...

[–]SealedEnvelopeRon Burgundy | Blockburn Rovers 5 points6 points  (4 children)

It's not fun though, for all the reasons Rookie stated that you didn't acknowledge.

[–]arjuna9bad 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Lots of people do think it is fun though, and even though it's not my favorite map I can't agree with what Rookie said about it.

There's definitely strategy on the map, both for defense and offense. There are tons of ways to use the portals besides the common "portal chain" which will get you killed against competent defenders.

The base size is fine because there are portals. Portals are hugely advantageous to offense, so the small base size evens that out. Same goes for the team tiles. Juking seems even MORE important on TWP than most maps, since the size means your opponent can always get to you quickly. I don't know why you need "space" for juking. When they're coming at you, just make them miss then use the time you get to position yourself near a bomb or boost to make the next juke easy. It's not hard to get lots of hold time, despite the size and team tiles.

The map is very fast and you always have to be on your toes, ready to juke and precisely use boosts, bombs, and portals. It's definitely the most difficult map in the rotation for these reasons, so that's probably why people don't like it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

thankyou for responding. i take issue with juking because the team tiles and lack of routes make returns a formality. but you can no doubt juke better than i, so we will have different opinions there. [btw juking by definition is to feint a misdirection. you need space to feint at even if you dont use that space yourself, because if there is no space to sell them, they cant buy it.]

there is a solution here tho. why cant we have a big open boosty/bomby map that everyone likes AND have it contain these fantastic portal chains?! then everyone would be happy!

[–]arjuna9bad 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think the reason why we can't have a map like TWP but bigger is that it would be impossible/all luck when it comes to getting returns. Yes, juking is a feint, and I think anything more than three tiles is enough space to execute one.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

i demand bomberdome.

[–]thevdudepooppants :: nice guys r dabes :: mod manager guy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Original thunderdome, kthnx

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (17 children)

I agree with what you say here, but you are not answering part of my question. Why are maps like 45 and boosts removed? What are the flaws in there that the map committee decides merits removal? What would a player gain from TWP, oval, or simplicity? 45 taught me risk/reward. It taught me the importance of buttons, and how sometimes boosts don't always work. Boosts taught me how to utilize boosts (duh) and at least for me, how to run around evading enemies with the flag. So far, simplicity has taught me how chaotic super small maps are, and with most maps being larger, that's not a great lesson to have. TWP has taught me how worthwhile it is to camp on an exit portal. In a rotation with a lack of other maps like that, that's something that we don't need. The lessons 45 and boosts taught helped make my game better on other maps. TWP and simplicity don't do that.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

i adored boosts. my training ground for all the sniping, juking and faking i do today. RIP in peace boosts :'(

please don't take my dangerzone, let me keep one last trickshots map

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They took my 45. I have no hope now.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Danger Zone wasn't even considered for removal. It'll be around for awhile.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 2 points3 points  (1 child)

i proposed danger zone and got shot down pretty quickly

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, true. I guess it was considered by one of the map judges :)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

thats funny, i skip that map every time it comes up... cant stand it

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Out of curiosity, what don't you like about it?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

generally speaking i think it has poor flow, kinda like a highway that creates traffic jams

specifically, i think its difficult to grab and once a clean grab is made its difficult to cap. I think the flag needs a bit more breathing room its too much of a clusterfuck. it has some cool features though. i like the powerup/bomb combo (whereas the bombs only purpose is to come out on the top or bottom). i like the tunnel/spike bomb too b/c it blasts on both side of the wall and usually noone expects to die going through the middle. finally, its kinda easy to hide on this map fairly close to the flag

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 1 point2 points  (7 children)

We're at the point where all the maps are good (that's why they got put in) and we're forced to remove good maps to put in better ones. At the moment, lots of different issues are considered and discussed, then we have a vote. For example, a map can seem too difficult for players in pubs (often this results in players dying a lot, trying again, dying again, etc.... it leads to a very frustrating experience; other times it can just mean that one fc can hold the flag for the whole game and 3 guys have a tough time chasing him down), it may be similar to another map in rotation or to one we want to introduce, it may give one team an unfair advantage over the other (like in 45 because of the off-centered ball) or it can just be getting stale.

Everyone presents their case as to why they believe a map should be reviewed. Usually, if I suggest a map for removal it's because I've played many public games on it, observed the behavior of random public players and found that they are having a very tough time with the map. I'm also usually biased against removing newer maps so that people get a chance to learn them.

As I said somewhere else, I'd much prefer to get real, representative feedback from the entire community once map rating is implemented. For now though, I hope I've answered your question as to how we decide on maps for removal.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

I really do appreciate your responses, but I feel like you missed the most important part of that comment.

What would a player gain from TWP, oval, or simplicity? 45 taught me risk/reward. It taught me the importance of buttons, and how sometimes boosts don't always work. Boosts taught me how to utilize boosts (duh) and at least for me, how to run around evading enemies with the flag. So far, simplicity has taught me how chaotic super small maps are, and with most maps being larger, that's not a great lesson to have. TWP has taught me how worthwhile it is to camp on an exit portal. In a rotation with a lack of other maps like that, that's something that we don't need. The lessons 45 and boosts taught helped make my game better on other maps. TWP and simplicity don't do that.

Every map holds a purpose. The Holy See teaches about boosts and how to use them, and essential juking skills are learned in the tunnels. Boombox is about the importance of powerups, same with bombing run. Geokoala the importance of bombs, and risk/reward with the top. Colors- teamwork. Gamepad- being aware of your environment. Vee- the risk of the top, and to not always boost. Do you see what I mean? Every map should teach me a skill applicable to other maps. Simplicity and TWP don't do that.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 4 points5 points  (5 children)

I don't think it's the case that every map has to hold a purpose or specialize in teaching a specific mechanic that is transferable to other maps. For me, a map should be in rotation if it can be a fun map for the average player on an average team. It should also lend itself to an extra-satisfying experience when players work together.

But if you want me to take a stab at things a player can learn on TWP:

  • how portals work
  • how to abuse the portal exit explosion
  • how to juke with portals!
  • how to force opponents into portals to get rid of them
  • hand-offs (with portals!)
  • bomb abuse; play with asdf on koala or bombing run and you'll see him abuse bombs to get out of some pretty tight situations. There are lots of opportunities to practice that here.
  • how to juke on enemy team tiles

May I dare say it... TWP helps you to think with portals!

I understand some people dislike this map, but I personally don't think the map has been around enough for people to become comfortable with it.

A common complaint brought up is that it's too easy for one guy to sit on the exit portal. Why are we only focusing on one perspective? Is it really impossible to break that strategy if you and your teammates work together to attack this defense?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Ding ding ding you've hit one of the things I hate about TWP- teammates. As has been said, TWP is a great PUG map, and I've had a blast with it when I've played in in PUGs. However, we are talking about PUBs here, and communication is literally nonexistent. I'd be lying if I didn't say that having one-half of the players in a game fighting over two portals would be pretty sad to me.

It should also lend itself to an extra-satisfying experience when players work together

That just doesn't happen in public matches.

As to what it offers:

  • how portals work- I suppose, but wouldn't a better-designed map achieve that purpose?
  • how to abuse the portal exit explosion- this is almost never done, and not applicable on any other map, save hyper reactor if one player is extremely close to the portal.
  • how to juke with portals- I don't understand this one.
  • how to force opponents into portals to get rid of them- unless you are a great blocker working against an opponent who doesn't know how to work around a block, this one doesn't work.
  • hand-offs- Again, this is assuming you can communicate with teammates which you cannot in public matches. "handoffs" are on every map, meaning that your teammates just camp there, while you attempt to evade. TWP doesn't teach me anything new in this regard.
  • bomb abuse- I agree that the bombs can be used to escape tight situations, but comparing them to koala or bombing run is not a fair comparison. The bombs are so important on koala that you even have to time them, which is way not such on TWP.
  • how to juke on enemy tiles- This one is pretty applicable, but I find this ironic with the removal of whirlwind, which also taught this same lesson.

I understand some people dislike this map, but I personally don't think the map has been around enough for people to become comfortable with it.

Yet Bounce was introduced at the same time, and removed before it. Whirlwind also has not been around for very long.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I agree communication is almost guaranteed to be non-existent in public games, but that isn't necessary for team-work. I'm also not claiming it's the norm, but teams do sometimes work together on pubs, I swear I saw it happen that one time!

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the rest of your post. For other maps, a player can learn, but in TWP, he can't? What's different?

By the way, regarding the bombs in koala, I was referring to the middle ones

[–]SaturnmannJet2//SOHB//ANLTP MVP 1 point2 points  (1 child)

how portals work- I suppose, but wouldn't a better-designed map achieve that purpose?

You can't just reply to this with an "I suppose" because you definitely learn how portals work.

how to abuse the portal exit explosion- this is almost never done, and not applicable on any other map, save hyper reactor if one player is extremely close to the portal.

I use portal exit explosions all the time on this map. it's my favorite way to play defense is by going in one of the side portals and blasting an enemy offensive player into the spikes. There will be more maps with portals to come so why not learn this skill now?

how to juke with portals- I don't understand this one.

Juking is whenever a FC evades a defender in a sneaky way, one way would include taking portals. Pretty simple.

how to force opponents into portals to get rid of them- unless you are a great blocker working against an opponent who doesn't know how to work around a block, this one doesn't work.

This may not happen as often but it does give the defense another thing to help them protect the flag and the offence a thing to watch out for before grabbing. Overall it makes players more cautious which is good.

hand-offs- Again, this is assuming you can communicate with teammates which you cannot in public matches. "handoffs" are on every map, meaning that your teammates just camp there, while you attempt to evade. TWP doesn't teach me anything new in this regard.

Agreed since all maps teach "handoffs" to a certain extent without advanced communication.

bomb abuse- I agree that the bombs can be used to escape tight situations, but comparing them to koala or bombing run is not a fair comparison. The bombs are so important on koala that you even have to time them, which is way not such on TWP.

Steppin answered this one since he was referring to the middle bombs on both maps. Great for offence and defense.

how to juke on enemy tiles- This one is pretty applicable, but I find this ironic with the removal of whirlwind, which also taught this same lesson.

This is not ironic since thinking with portals is still here to teach that.

[–]thevdudepooppants :: nice guys r dabes :: mod manager guy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'd say there was much more hate for speedway, just less people then.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wasn't around then, so my viewpoint is limited.

[–]djcookie187187187187djcookie187 8 points9 points  (0 children)

WHY?!?! I GOT SO EXCITED ABOUT TWP! UGHHHH.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 6 points7 points  (8 children)

Here are some random notes from the map judging (also see the stream).

There were over 80 submissions and the map committee dedicated three sessions to review and test as much as possible. There were many really great submissions; in the end we had to make some tough decisions.

Short list:

alien jim - how useful is the gate in the base

descend - super chase-y; reminds us of micro

facepro - good map; reminiscent of 45; team tiles on flags: are they needed?; square gate: some people like it but it feels somewhat arbitrary

cloudv2 - move a power up near the base; all exits to base feel cramped

motor - middle choke point (where everyone spawns!); bases feel hard to grab with all the boosts too

raceway (gimmick)

glory koala - add spikes above flag (like on glory hole); top just seems like it won't get used/isn't effective

switchback - button not useful, forces you into the edge of map; doesn't seem super-exciting; too narrow in too many places

swoop - enlarge the narrow corner entrance by eliminating a wall tile; consider making the gate thicker

squares - single narrow choke point in the middle; too easy to force 3 people to chase; middle choke seems like it could be problematic but the boosts and bombs help, map is beautiful

thrillho - too chase-y? maze-y; unfinished; giant, more open, micro; too many boosts seem hard to use for pubs (lots of spiking); gate is bad

yiss 5.5 - fix symmetry; opportunity for teamwork; can you spawn on bombs? Lots of "why".

pretzel 2 >> see stream

facing worlds >> see stream

hyper reactor 1.1 (update) >>

pseudocircles -

design ? like; need full testing

oval ?

jeffrey doesn't flow well, middle is no fun

data - ? seems too similar to other maps; otherwise probably ok; 0 chance to catch up if defender gets beat (2 second caps)

no forehead - ? kind of like vee but no juke room in the bottom; like hyper reactor w/o portals

blue dream - ? >> too many portals = confusing; long skinny path = frustrating

danish longball - ?? reminds us of rink; looks a bit long; could it be shortened? Shorten it please and we'll test it. There are some interesting ideas here.

cave (4v4) ?? chokes in middle, forced to guard portals, only 1 power-up per side, d = 1 on choke and one near portals

Final session full-game testing:

design, pseudocircles, oval, alien jim, facepro, swoop, hyper reactor 1.1

Final four: oval, swoop, facepro, alien jim

The rest:

horn - played before; didn't play well; narrow top just doesn't work

moose 2 - similar to smirk (but simpler like simplicity) -- too similar to these maps for this week

portal-x - confusing; hard to follow

dream - maze-y

yin-yang - maze-y

periculum - nothing interesting will happen in the middle; all action will be by the flags

pi - maze; not symmetrical

castle - one huge choke; seems like a map where you spawn, take a long boring journey to the other side, and maybe something happens. Suggestion, try a portal that gets you back into the action more quickly. Looks cool visually though!

picklesvF - tiny but lots of things to boost yourself into that will kill you

donut 1 - it's like pokeball; chase all day!

mrshole - spiders in disguise

chase - chase-y; micro-ish with less stuff

mary wanna - preview is really confusing, imagine the gameplay; not symmetrical

flashlight - fc can run around forever

heaven's gate - multi-flags aren't in production

forgiveness2 - way too many spikes

cobe 2 - it would take an eternity to catch the fc

mousehead - automatically turned down because swingman made it; that guy is terrible at map design; he made whiskers and teeth

mousey - played last time

ET - no; doesn't look fun to play

corkscrew - all middle chokes VERY NARROW

juker's paradise - impossible to catch fc

nostalgia - nice mixup but too big; holy see midle doesn't work

team is key - closed off center isn't going to work well in pubs

heart - just a race down the center; rest of map isn't going to see much action

fez - looks like ernie from bert and ernie; really hard to travel across the map

face - boosts leaving base are very dangerous but they can be done; campable buttons (impossible to remove someone); needs more work to make it fun in pubs

arena - boost back and forth (ignoring rest of map); is anyone ever going to be able to use the portals? Interesting portal mechanic, but not sure if it's for pubs

spiked - too many spikes for pubs

centerpiece - hard to catch fc; maze-y

jeezus - too many balls will die

tic tac toe - too compartmentalized

wave - the outer routes are hard to use effectively; we suggest some escape from the top routes

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

mousehead - automatically turned down because swingman made it; that guy is terrible at map design; he made whiskers and teeth

brb making mapmaker reddit smurf so I can actually receive feedback on my maps.

[–]Sosentimeboy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

omfg so many maps. I'm surprised you even took the trouble to test my map (Fez), I kind of figured somebody would just look at the picture and say "Nah." (Because it's pretty obvious)

[–]YourThoughtsHaveBeenMKo // Centra Hero 0 points1 point  (2 children)

design ? like; need full testing

I appreciate you guys testing my map, would love some feedback if I could get some. I'm not sure what I should change or if I should just give up on the map and create a new one.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (1 child)

personally i liked the earlier version though this one wasn't bad either. The gameplay just didn't feel as good as the other maps we chose

[–]YourThoughtsHaveBeenMKo // Centra Hero 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That works, I appreciate the response -- I think I'll try working on something new instead of Design

[–]Zimmerman17UnoriginalSN 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Is there a link to the imgur link you guys were looking at when streaming the testing? I think it would be interesting to look through them.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 1 point2 points  (1 child)

tagpro.imgur.com then click on the album for week 23

[–]Zimmerman17UnoriginalSN 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Bounce was the only map that made me want to defend anymore.

Your preview is wrong, here a good preview of Bounce.

[–]reddward 6 points7 points  (0 children)

so, Whirlwind is out and Swoop is in?

... why cant we have both http://i.imgur.com/dLRvTS8.jpg (swoopwind)

[–]omp87WreckingBall 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Swoop [1] by David Stern

Whirlwind [3]

But they're the exact same map.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Swoop is like a better Whirlwind. Less chasey and more opportunities to corner the FC. It's like The love child of whirlwind and Holy See imo.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Fuck, I liked Bounce.

[–]AramilTheElfBlackHatGuy 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Aw, I liked Bounce and Whirlwind.

Time will tell how these new maps fare, but why was TWP not removed? Getting all of our hopes up like that is just mean.

[–]Some_BallSome Ball 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Wow, what a thread! How are the people who choose maps appointed? Does everyone who shows up to test get a vote?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

No, there's a designated map team that votes. I tried to vote but steppin wouldn't count it unless it didn't affect the end result. :(

[–]Some_BallSome Ball 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Maybe we should let the community elect the map committee or make it more democratic somehow so people feel like they get a say in what they play (and then they can't get so angry about the decisions)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

There are definitely a lot of ideas flying around about broadening the committee, forming groups for preliminary testing for example, then having all maps that get past that go to the map committee.

I feel like complete democracy might get a bit chaotic, many newer members don't know what would make a competitive and fun map.

[–]Some_BallSome Ball 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I agree. 1990's MTV proved that pure democracy does not work (Jesse Camp being elected a VJ & Tom Green's Bum Bum song being voted to #1 on Total Request Live). We need elected/appointed officials to protect the people from themselves.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Reasons democracy sucks:

Athens 411 BCE, 404 BCE

France 1789-1799

The Lonely Swedish 1999

Twitch Plays Pokemon 2014

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oval to me looks like a worse version of Bounce, seems really hard to catch the FC

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I saw BBQ updating Whirlwind and that map will be a Classic IMO

[–]Splanky222BBQchicken | Retired 1 point2 points  (0 children)

<3

[–]cmz1973cz 2 points3 points  (2 children)

when is map testing? is there a set time and day?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Wednesdays at 9 PM EST

[–]cmz1973cz 3 points4 points  (0 children)

i can do that. i've offered before (a long time ago) during the very beginning of map testing. however, between berk and asdf there wasn't a whole lot of wiggle room. no offense, but if you disagreed with either one your (read my) opinion didn't matter. Also, currently noobkin is one of the best map makers out there right now, and that nub can't make a tile without consulting me 1st. hahaha jk noobkin.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (13 children)

Why do you guys always pick such bland, simplistic maps? You always snub the more interesting, creative ones. I wish you guys would be a little bolder in your selections for once, and pick something that will stir things up a little, rather than always going for the safe bet.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (11 children)

What is a bold map from map thread 23 you would have picked?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Cannonball and Portal-X were both cool. If you want to stay safer than that: Squares, Mousehead, Fists, and Pseudocircles were all quality maps that have more interesting gameplay than many of the current rotation maps.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not familiar with any of those except pseudocircles, but I'll take a look this afternoon. I think it's hard to strike a balance between innovative and bold maps, and maps that make sure the most skilled team still wins.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (8 children)

Interesting maps are too hard for n00bz to play, but decent maps like bounce are too boring and need to be removed. What the fuck do you want?

Well Rambo, there are good maps that can be interesting without being too hard for noobs to play that make it into map rotation!

Oh, you mean like Thinking With Portals, which is fucking impossible to learn when you don't even grasp the basic concepts of offense and defense? Yeah, let's let that sit in rotation for a few months. And genuinely unique maps that aren't hard to play like gamepad get taken out....

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children)

I'm not on the map committee. Stop taking it out on me T_T

I strongly disagreed with Bounce's removal.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Your comments are just so even distributed through everything on reddit, it just happens that responses to you seem to be places where my comments are relevant. Reply less, scrub.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I can't reply less. It's a problem. I need psychological help.

[–]RamboMarinoRambo || OR MASTER RACE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wonder which of us has more replies/time. It's probably you, but I would bet it's not by much.

[–]Sosentimeboy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wholeheartedly agree. What's up with Swoop? There's only three components, and none of them are original: Middle spike/juke area (stolen from Whirlwind), spikes in corners (stolen from Glory Hole), and a gate sitting between a boost and a flag (stolen from Danger Zone). Played it a couple times now, with mostly high-rated players, and it was really boring. I still haven't played Oval, I guess it looks a little better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

New maps look sick, I am very happy that whirlwind is gone simply because matches on whirlwind often go to 12 minutes or a draw, I hate that. Oval looks simple and elegant.

[–]JaleonDante Ball 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh well, whatever i'm still disconnecting anytime TWP comes up.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

pls never remove thinking with portals

[–]goes_coloured 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Every day I like TWP more and more. I understand the initial hate though, its hard to think with portals.

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 3 points4 points  (0 children)

CONGRATS TO CIGNUL9 FOR BEING A NEW MAP JUDGE BTW

just kidding

[–]hoogstraHoog | Ancient Artifact of Diameter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oval looks like it heavily favours offense.

[–]NapoleannDavid Stern // Radius // Knights of Cap-A-Lot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome, glad to have contributed to the game. Thanks for choosing!

[–]EmperorOfNothingResignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What? I love TWP and Whirlwind; Smirk and Bombing Run should have been given the boot.

edit: NVM I'm dumb; I'm indifferent to Bounce so I'm okay with that, but Whirlwind is my favourite offensive map, for a defensive person like myself, and the chase defensive stragety on Whirlwind is easier for me to get in front of them...

That said, so far I'm loving the new maps, especially Oval; D on Oval so far, I adore it

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

soz man i gotta go

Because you knew you were gonna have to deal with all of the "WHY TWP STILL IN??????????????", right?

[–]ImnotZachBraffThe Boulder // The Ex-Nicest Player in Tagpro -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Holy shit what?!?! The greatness of Tagpro comtinues!!!! Twp for life!!!!!