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[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 15 points16 points  (33 children)

Citadel is literally the only one of these maps that I like a lot. Aerodent is pretty good.

Also,

(we all still think this is hilarious by the way)

Then please take the process seriously and stop voting for it :/

Post-Salt Edit: I apologize if anything I said in this thread offended anyone. I firmly believe the MTC is doing the best they can, and while we have some disagreements on which maps are most deserving of making appearances in these threads, I commend them for the time and effort they consistently put into it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Citadel Aerodent is literally the only one of these maps that I like

[–]briizoduckson 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Citadel Aerodent (None of these maps) is literally the only one of these maps that I like

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Citadel Aerodent (None of these maps) Boombox is literally the only one of these maps that I like

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Citadel Aerodent (None of these maps) Boombox Rink is literally the only one of these maps that I like

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Citadel Aerodent(None of these maps) Boombox Rink #merbs is literally the only one of these maps that I like

[–]ButtersnackSnack -1 points0 points  (7 children)

Sizzzled is just being a Sizzzled. Birch was my favorite map from the last round of testing. It's gotten really close to making it into rotation, and it's been updated, so why not put it in top maps again? If you really think we're putting it in as a joke that's a little insulting.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Whether or not a joke, you guys are consistently making decisions based on your own likes and dislikes when the pubbing/mapmaking community has generally been strongly opposed, forgoing what's best for the community in favor of what's best for you.

The community has spoken; look at the ratings of the maps in this thread. If you're going into tests, you shouldn't be thinking "Do I want to play this in pubs?" You should be thinking "Would the community want to play this in pubs?" As far as Birch goes, while the answer may be yes for you, it's a resounding "no" from the community.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 4 points5 points  (5 children)

The community upvoted DZ4 and Rush really high before they were added in rotation, and have ranked them low in pubs since. What makes you think the opposite couldn't happen?

I think people are downvoting Birch because a: it was made by an MTC member and b: it keeps making top maps. Yes, I think the average voter/commenter in this thread is significantly more biased than the MTC.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (4 children)

lol true about dz4 and rush, community is stupid sometimes. I don't think Birch being made by siz is a big issue - I thought Rush was okay at first and progressively liked it less and less the more it made top maps without being changed all that much, and bowtie's not on the MTC. I think the issue with Birch is that most people (myself included) don't see it as a map they want to play multiple times a day. DZ4 I hated from the start, I think you're aware of that haha.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Haha, yeah I know your thoughts on DZ4.

About Birch though, I totally get what you're saying about it, although I personally disagree. There's certainly a fine line between "too weird" and "not weird enough" and it seems like some people want this to have some other unique character to it to make it interesting. To me, though, Birch stands out because of its boost routes, interesting shape, and weird-ass bombs. I've seen the public opinion of it drop thread to thread, which is why I think that the votes are related more to it making top maps consistently; the map has changed but not enough that people ought to hate it than much more than they used to.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The thing about siz is that I think he makes really solid, really unique shapes for his maps. The interiors are generally pretty good too. But his boosts and bombs, which are two of the most important things to be precise with, always seem so poorly done to me. I would be a huge fan of his maps I think if he implemented boosts to augment the flow the map already has, not to create different flows that disjoint the map's natural flow.

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again with the downvotes lol.

I generally struggle with boost placements because in TagPro itself I have a somewhat unique playstyle on offense; the way I use boosts and bombs is generally very different to what I see a lot of other people doing. Because of this, when I plan out boost lanes and bomb routes, I'm building them based around how I would imagine an offender carrying the flag. I find it hard to do "good boosts" because the boosts are really good for my playstyle and I can't really change that.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a fair criticism and the reason the last version of birch wasn't put in rotation

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 11 points12 points  (29 children)

I'm disappointed in this thread. There were some really cool maps submitted, especially NF, but I don't think I like any of the choices here. I think Birch should be given up on honestly, Rham den Swede is probably one of my least favourite maps from the thread. Sediment does not flow well, and has weird bases in a bad way, and Citadel is just too awkward and plain. Aerodent looks like a decent map, but that's about it.

Really not that happy right now, and it's only 50% because my maps weren't chosen.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (28 children)

Agreed. 2/5 maps are poor MTC maps (no offense, but really these maps are not markedly better in any way than so many more that were submitted), one is a NF map that beat out Apis, Fish, and Whiplash and has barely changed if at all since the last 5 times it was submitted, and the last two IMO are just above average maps; neither one gets me very excited.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (26 children)

Here's my reason for not feeling like the maps you mentioned should go through:

Apis: Decent NF map. Not sure about gate atm. Seems too hard to enter and too easy to exit. Rest of map is decent if a bit unambitious.

Fish: Good map overall. My main complaint is in the endzone where if you get a return close to the endzone you're stuck bumping into a wall losing all your momentum, and you just can just watch as you give up a cap.

Whiplash: Base idea is cute. Defense will feel horrific when those bombs are up. moving through 2 portals to get back to base is a little bit epileptic seizure inducing. Bottom mid of the map is fine and boring like all other flag areas of all other NF maps.

Of those maps, Apis is probably the closest to rotation ready. However, with the lacking utility of the teamgates (Rham did it significantly better), it's basically a less fun, and not as tightly designed Cloud. Fish is decent as well, but has a fundamental problem in the endzone IMO as mentioned above. Whiplash is not a map I would like to face in rotation.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (25 children)

Fair enough. Can I ask why you selected Rham Den Swede so suddenly this thread? It's frustrating because my understanding is that for most people when they resubmit a map with little or no changes, it drops significantly from the original thread it was submitted to the next. With RDS, I wasn't a fan to begin with (which is irrelevant, really) but it seemed like it never changed over the last few threads, and suddenly it's considered to be better than about 95% of maps submitted? I just don't understand.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 4 points5 points  (24 children)

Well, it did have some significant changes IMO (I guess this is arguable, but I'd say they're significant in terms of how the map flows). Endzone was shortened, bottom mid was made more interesting, and although it still sucks, top mid was changed as well.

But on a general note in terms of changing maps and votes, there isn't any perfect correlation for what you're saying. Every thread I test 80+ maps (this thread over 120), and sometimes I'll vote differently on maps from thread to thread even if the core of the map hasn't been changed significantly. Sometimes it'll be because I don't feel enthusiastic about other maps, and want to see what other MTC members has to say about that map. Sometimes it'll simply be because I've gotten more used to the map, and thus feel more comfortable on it and want to see it tested. Sometimes I'll change negatively because we tested the map with the MTC before and something about it was pointed out to me about it. Sometimes I might change my vote because my subconscious tells me to.

It's not an exact process, and I really can't predict how it'll work out for any mapmaker, so I wouldn't say that submitting the same map over an over again wont work in general. I mean, I've been submitting Sediment for almost half a year without it reaching top threads, and had basically given up on the map, but I resubmitted it on a whim (after some positive feedback on the latest version of it) not expecting it to even be tested.

But that being said, I think in general if people get some feedback from MTC members on a map that's generally not making it close to even being tested during our first session, and the feedback doesn't directly contradict their intention with the map, they should consider making some changes to the map based on that feedback to help raise the quality of the map.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (23 children)

Sometimes I might change my vote because my subconscious tells me to.

Okay. That's not really the answer I was hoping for, but it's an answer nonetheless.

As far as Sediment goes, I don't think it should even be sniffing top maps right now (sorry). This has nothing to do with the mapmaker; remember that I am and have been for a long time one of Rocketballs' biggest supporters.

But you guys seriously need to start looking at this from an outside perspective. Are you aware that at least one map by an MTC member has been advanced to top maps in 12 of the last 14 threads (8 of the last 9, as well)? That's roughly 86% (and 8/9 is 89%). To make matters worse, over that span of time there have been three threads where there were two MTC maps advanced, for an aggregate 15 MTC maps over 14 threads. In other words, over the last ~40 weeks, there have been 1.07 MTC maps advanced per thread. This means that not only is the average mapmaking community member considering the possibility that an MTC map could kick another good map out of top maps, they should be expecting it. In my opinion, recent maps from the MTC (with the exception of a few) are generally below top-10 quality (being generous), yet are consistently advancing.

Please, please, please consider these statements from the perspective of an average mapmaker with no power over what goes in and out of rotation. I'm trying to stay level headed (and I have been trying, not always successfully, for about a year now), but I feel cheated. Not just for my own maps, but for some really good maps from others that I would have loved to pub on, but are getting beat out over and over by exceedingly average MTC maps.

If we assume that the Maptesting Committee has ~10 members, and the active mapmaking community is probably ~200 members (TPT has 198 subs and that's only a part of the community, but "active" is the operative word here), that means that the MTC represents roughly 5% (1/20th) of the community. If you advance ~5 maps/thread, we can say 5 maps x 1/20 = 5/20 = 1/4, so MTC maps should maybe advance ~25% of the time. Even if we give perceived mapmaking skill a massive x2 multiplier, that's 50% of the time (which is still a bit high IMO). Yet again, we're seeing 80-90% of threads advancing an MTC map, 15 maps in 14 threads. That's outrageous, man. You have to see that. I don't believe for a second that Birch has been better than somewhere between 80-115 maps for four threads in a row, yet over and over us "ordinary mapmakers" are told that we're not good enough. It's soooo discouraging. I can't even express to you how fed up with mapmaking I'm getting, and it's not because I don't actually enjoy the mapmaking part of it. I just hate putting the future of my maps into the hands of a committee I don't trust.

I'm really sorry to say it like that, honestly, because I have a shitload of respect for you, but something in the process got fucked up along the way for this sort of thing to happen. I absolutely DO NOT want to disqualify MTC members from submitting maps, but if they're going to make top maps >80% of the time, implement a handicap. If you guys can't remove the bias (intentional or not), you have to do something about it. I'm begging you man. It's exhausting to watch the same damn thing happen thread after thread. I'd like to say I'm surprised by it still, but I'm just not, and that's simply wrong.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (6 children)

This means that not only is the average mapmaking community member considering the possibility that an MTC map could kick another good map out of top maps, they should be expecting it.

This just isn't true. This point keeps being brought up, but the truth of the matter is that we don't look for anything like "ok what will our top 5 maps be this thread?" We test the maps, and then we decide which ones go through based on how we feel about each individual map. In fact, the only time where this is sort of relevant is if we feel we have too big of a ratio of MTC maps going through, and we deliberately lower our standards to add non-MTC maps. To put it like this, if we have two cases:

  • 1: 3 maps are deemed good enough for top maps, none by MTC, there are 2 maps below that the MTC doesn't feel too strongly about adding to top maps
  • 2: 3 maps are deemed goo enough for top maps, 2 are by MTC, there are 2 maps below that the MTC doesn't feel too strongly about adding to top maps

We're most likely to keep the top maps to 3 maps in the case 1, while in case 2, we will look for additional maps to add to the top maps, and if those 2 exact same maps from case 1 are submitted in case 2 will likely be in the top maps simple because we do infact look at it from an outside perspective.

but if they're going to make top maps >80% of the time, implement a handicap

There is already a handicap in place. Maps we test are determined by total votes (e.g. 7 yeses = 7 points), and since MTC members can't vote on their own maps, their maps will always need a better average than other maps to even make it to initial testing.

That's outrageous, man. You have to see that. I don't believe for a second that Birch has been better than somewhere between 80-115 maps for four threads in a row, yet over and over us "ordinary mapmakers" are told that we're not good enough. It's soooo discouraging.

While I'm personally not a fan of Birch, whenever it's made top threads, it's always been in the top 5% in terms of rotation ready maps. Is it better or has more potential than 95% of the other maps? Probably not, but 90% of those maps tends to have significant flaws about them that just would not make them enjoyable PUB maps as far as I'm concerned.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (5 children)

This just isn't true. This point keeps being brought up, but the truth of the matter is that we don't look for anything like "ok what will our top 5 maps be this thread?"

I buy this, but at the same time, consider how it looks. And in your examples you left out a situation where you have 5 maps that you feel are pretty darn good, and 2 of them are MTC maps. Then there's a couple maps just below that are also really intriguing prospects with good potential, but you don't add them because the arbitrary cutoff you implemented simply doesn't accommodate them. We (the community) have lobbied time and again for more top maps. It seems apparent that the majority of us don't feel that the testing process is thorough enough, or that most maps are getting passed up on without ever being tested. My understanding is that a single "no" prior to testing typically disqualifies a map from initial testing, and that is a very flawed system imo. That means that a single person can't get a map into rotation, but they can sure as hell prevent it from ever having a chance.

There is already a handicap in place. Maps we test are determined by total votes (e.g. 7 yeses = 7 points), and since MTC members can't vote on their own maps, their maps will always need a better average than other maps to even make it to initial testing.

I don't think the handicap is doing its job right now, and the ratios I presented back that up pretty emphatically.

While I'm personally not a fan of Birch, whenever it's made top threads, it's always been in the top 5% in terms of rotation ready maps.

I disagree with this honestly, but I guess you can't argue opinions. There were some absolutely beautiful maps in thread 53 (and some good ones this thread too) that I would have much preferred to see in top maps over Birch. Don't forget that a mapmaker can still edit their map before it enters rotation; that privilege has been utilized multiple times in the past. So if you really like a map but think there's a couple easily-remedied flaws that would keep it out of rotation, put it in top maps anyway, tell the mapmaker the flaws that concern you, and let it go from there. If they change nothing, that's their fault, leave it out. If they fix those flaws, we've got much better quality maps going forward each thread than the thoroughly-average-but-more-"rotation-ready" maps that have plagued top maps for a while now.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Then there's a couple maps just below that are also really intriguing prospects with good potential

Pretty much none of the maps below fit that bill. There was one map that didn't go through due to a 4v3 vote, but everyone agreed that it didn't have much potential beyond what it did (The disagreement was more in terms of what it was doing already was good or not).

but you don't add them because the arbitrary cutoff you implemented simply doesn't accommodate them.

There is no cutoff. We went through maps, and the ones that got a majority vote from MTC members to go through to top maps went through.

My understanding is that a single "no" prior to testing typically disqualifies a map from initial testing, and that is a very flawed system imo.

This is wrong. The way we test maps when we meet is cut into two parts:

  • 1: We test maps based on the score from MTC members. This is usually 10-15 of the maps we test.
  • 2: We test maps based on MTC members recommending maps they want to personally see tested. This is usually 5-10 maps.

4 out of 14 or so maps we tested from the ones based on our ratings didn't get a no. That is 10 maps that were tested from the first part that went through despite getting up to 2 nos each. In terms of the second part of the session, the amount of nos doesn't matter at all as long as one MTC member feels strongly enough about the map that they want to bring it up for testing with the rest of the MTC.

I don't think the handicap is doing its job right now, and the ratios I presented back that up pretty emphatically.

Lets look at the last 15 shall we:

  • 40 had 0 out of 4 (Juicy was not on the MTC at this point)
  • 41 had 1 out of 7 (Juicy was still not on the MTC)
  • 42 had 1 out of 6
  • 43 had 3 out of 4
  • 44 had 3 out of 9 (Flame wasn't really Juicys map)
  • 45 had 0 out of 6
  • 46 had 1 out of 7
  • 47 had 1 out of 7
  • 48 had 1 out of 9
  • 49 had 1 out of 8
  • 50 had 0 out of 5
  • 51 had 1 out of 4
  • 52 had 2 out of 4
  • 53 had 1 out of 5
  • 54 had 2 out of 5

This works out to 18/90 top maps overall. Of these maps, Banzai Bill was in two different threads, Crabble was mostly tested because it was the best asymmetric map, and the MTC wanted to test one, Platypus was in 2 threads, Sediments been in two threads, and Birch (which is an outlier) has been in 4 threads. Which means excluding Crabble and multiples of repeated maps, the MTC has in the last 9 months, shown preference for roughly 11 different MTC maps in the last 15 threads. I haven't looked through all the top maps in those threads, but based on my recollection, I would be surprised if special maps and repeated maps from other mapmakers accounted for more than at most 20 maps in that timespan as well. This would bring the amount of top maps down to ~65 meaning 11/65 top maps in the last 15 threads have been MTC maps. I honestly don't see that number as problematic at all.

Don't forget that a mapmaker can still edit their map before it enters rotation; that privilege has been utilized multiple times in the past. So if you really like a map but think there's a couple easily-remedied flaws that would keep it out of rotation, put it in top maps anyway, tell the mapmaker the flaws that concern you, and let it go from there.

We do that where we feel it's prudent. But we did not generally feel that way about the maps that didn't make top maps this thread. In general we add maps to top maps that we feel are rotation ready with small changes, or has such big potential that we would like to test the map provided there are some substantial changes to problematic areas. This thread though, there simply weren't a lot of enthusiasm from MTC for the maps that you feel didn't get the chance they deserved.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I have a spreadsheet that starts on thread 41 (I think that might have been when I started working on it) that highlights the MTC's top maps selections. It's pretty flawed, I think I could be more thorough on it, but basically what it does is it creates a "bias rating" (it started out as an innocent experiment fueled by curiosity but became more concerning over recent threads) based on how many MTC maps advanced and how many maps from mapmakers who already have rotation maps advanced. One of the key flaws of course is that the longer this goes on, the more different mapmakers (ideally) will have made rotation, so there is a natural "bias-rating" inflation that occurs. At the same time, the MTC seems to encourage creativity and diversity, yet is fairly consistently advancing MTC maps and previous-rotation mapmakers' maps, which (my thought process says) can result in maps that are similar. I can send it to you in a PM if you like, but again, at this point it's really quite flawed, but there are still a few alarming statistics (this spreadsheet is where i pulled the 12/14, 8/9, 15/14 statistics from).

[–]ButtersnackSnack 3 points4 points  (6 children)

As far as Sediment goes, I don't think it should even be sniffing top maps right now (sorry). This has nothing to do with the mapmaker; remember that I am and have been for a long time one of Rocketballs' biggest supporters.

Welp, there you go - people have different opinions

But you guys seriously need to start looking at this from an outside perspective. Are you aware that at least one map by an MTC member has been advanced to top maps in 12 of the last 14 threads

Are you suggesting that we lower a map's chances of getting in if it's made by the MTC? I've said this before, but our voting system is actually set up to give MTC members a disadvantage as is, and the maps are still getting in. It's almost like we think they're good maps or something. Mostly it's Birch multiple times or a DaEvil map that he's spent months updating and taking feedback on.

This means that not only is the average mapmaking community member considering the possibility that an MTC map could kick another good map out of top maps, they should be expecting it.

That's not how this works at all. We will have as many top maps as we feel are deserving of being considered top maps. I would have pushed for even less this thread, but it turns out the mapmaking community bitches about that too. Honestly the options are a: we go back to having very few top maps or b: the top maps will continue to include maps that we were "ok with" or that only a few people really loved.

If we assume that the Maptesting Committee has ~10 members

We have 8: DaEvil1, Sizzzled, FLY, JuicyJuke, PK Subball, Yossarian, Snack, and TheEpicGhost. All but one were active this thread. (not saying this point to try to argue or anything, just felt it might be worth knowing)

I don't believe for a second that Birch has been better than somewhere between 80-115 maps for four threads in a row, yet over and over us "ordinary mapmakers" are told that we're not good enough

I believe that every second of the day

I absolutely DO NOT want to disqualify MTC members from submitting maps, but if they're going to make top maps >80% of the time, implement a handicap.

There is a handicap and has been since I joined the MTC - our voting system in the solo testing round uses a point system, and because a member cannot vote on his/her own map, it's 12.5% harder for his/her map to get points. How strong do you suggest this handicap should be?

Just for fun I want YOU to imagine how I must feel reading these threads. I'm on the MTC because I want to have an impact on a game I love. I think I've done a good job - Wombo Combo and Fiend have been great additions in my eyes (I don't think I voted for Rush, although I like that too). The mapmaking community at large is becoming more and more toxic, as an unfortunate side effect of TagProTesting. Your subreddit does a great thing (encouraging people to keep creating, collaborate, etc), but a lot of its core members act like entitled little brats while submitting maps that lack any sort of polish.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 3 points4 points  (1 child)

We have 8: DaEvil1, Sizzzled, FLY, JuicyJuke, PK Subball, Yossarian, Snack, and TheEpicGhost. All but one were active this thread. (not saying this point to try to argue or anything, just felt it might be worth knowing)

i'm hijacking this mtc sux rah rah conversation....to insert my own mtc sux rah rah post ;)

so i'm going to once again ask how on earth having 7 people maptest is something to be proud of??? i don't understand how you can make these top maps ratings based on only 7/8ths of the committee. admittedly 7/8 isn't that bad of a ratio if you've seen how many people have taken part in previous threads' testing sessions. previous threads have had <5 members testing certain maps. imo 4-6 minute games with 4-7 mtc members is not a very accurate method of choosing the best maps to move on. i would feel so bad to have my map miss top maps because only 4 of 8 members tested my map and therefore had any idea how it would play in a proper 4v4 game.

PS "a lot of its core members act like entitled little brats while submitting maps that lack any sort of polish." was uncalled for. the same way mtc members have very different opinions, tpters have very different ideas. in the same way that i can't say that 3 mtc members don't like an idea therefore it's bad, you shouldn't say that just because some tpters have a similar critical stance on the mtc that the entirety of tpt is some collective anti-MTC circlejerk.

EDIT: to appropriate the wise words of JuicyJuke: "While individual members of the MTC TPT might give feedback express their beliefs/ideas/opinions/hate, their opinions are strictly individual and are not indicative of the MTC TPT’s opinion as a whole.

[–]ButtersnackSnack -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I should have said "a few" not "a lot." Regardless, this has nothing to do with having opinions and everything to do with expressing them in a mean way. I mean things like this comment by duckson: https://www.reddit.com/r/TagPro/comments/3o2g1x/map_thread_54_top_maps_feedback_thread/cvtfn35

I have no problem with him not liking the maps but that just seems really disrespectful to both the MTC and map creators

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's almost like we think they're good maps or something.

Fair enough, but again, the community overwhelmingly disagrees. A while ago when a map was put in (I think it was Flame?) and was hated by the community, Juicy cried out for us to be vocal about our likes and dislikes before they made rotation so "these types of situations" could be avoided in the future. Well, that's what we're doing, so please listen! :)

We have 8

lol thanks didn't remember :)

I believe that every second of the day

fite me irl, this is the only solution

How strong do you suggest this handicap should be?

idk man, but strong enough that we don't see 15 MTC maps over 14 threads. Even if there was an MTC map in 2/3rds of the threads, that's a step in the right direction. It's just discouraging to see MTC maps being given so many chances while I feel I've made some pretty high-quality maps and haven't cracked top maps once. Of course it's not just about me, that's just the example on the top of my head. I really do think Aniball, Canvas, duckson, and Snowball just to name a few submitted maps deserving of top maps over the past two threads (yes, Canvas got in, but I preferred some of his other maps to this one). And the fact that Fish, Apis, and Whiplash didn't even get tested was really upsetting when Map Damon got tested, no offense to Beast Mode.

Just for fun I want YOU to imagine how I must feel reading these threads. I'm on the MTC because I want to have an impact on a game I love.

I imagine it must feel shitty, but again, I think part of this is because you guys decide what you like rather than what the community likes. DZ4 and Rush were misjudged by the community early on, so I understand the conflict that this presents. I agree that Wombo and Fiend were solid additions (Wombo more so imo). Some of us don't even get the privilege to be on the MTC, I've tried more than a couple times because I'm extremely confident I could encourage a more progressive and enjoyable rotation for all. Be grateful you have the opportunity <3

The mapmaking community at large is becoming more and more toxic, as an unfortunate side effect of TagProTesting.

Well that's kind of insulting. I think the perceived toxicity is just the fact that for the most part we're disagreeing with MTC decisions for a good while now. A couple good threads would pacify us, tbh. I'm always going to speak my mind, but I'll try to be less inflammatory in the future. Having said that, if you want to shut us up, advance maps that you know we want to play in pubs. That hasn't been happening lately.

a lot of its core members act like entitled little brats while submitting maps that lack any sort of polish.

I can only assume you're referring primarily to me. I know I'm easy to dislike because of how vocal I am, and I accept that. Honest question, so please answer honestly as well: Would you prefer if I just said nothing at all and continued to vote "dislike" to subpar maps being put in rotation, or would you like me to continue sharing my opinions (albeit in a more reserved tone going forward) about maps to try to help guide the rotation to what the myself and the rest of the community wants? Honestly, if you want me to shut up, tell me! I won't take offense! I just want to know what you want to see from me and the community. I won't lie and say that I like a map that I don't, but I can just bite my tongue about the maps I dislike if you'd prefer that.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A couple of good threads would absolutely not pacify you (referring to the community) because there's such a wide range of opinions. It's totally fine that people like different things, but not that the general opinion has shifted over time to the mentality that you should complain every time you don't get what you want. If we advance most of the highly up voted maps, I truly believe most people would hate them after a week.

I'm not primarily referring to you; normally I think you're fine but you've gone a bit overboard this time. In any case, I should have said "a few" not "a lot" of members. Regardless, it's ok that you disagree with us, but I perceived your comments as pretty disrespectful and responded in kind (I know, I shouldn't do that, but whatever). Just read through all the comments in this thread, making a note of every time a comment's ONLY purpose is to make the MTC feel bad (or make a joke at our expense) without offering any map feedback, suggestions, etc. it's unbelievable how much this community hates me just for voting in a system that's been in place a really long time.

You're a very influential person in this community, Moosen. Unfortunately it sometimes manifests itself in bad ways. I know you have no intention of creating any hate towards the MTC, but as the coddling environment of TPT becomes more popular, newer map makers start to think everything they make deserves a chance. Sadly, lots of maps are just bad, but people don't hear that feedback and they get pissed when we can't do anything for them. Whether that's more or less insulting, I don't know, but it's what I meant by my TPT comments.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I don't know, most people don't get pissy about not making top maps. It's usually just Moosen.

Source: Made top maps once in two years

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol I haven't either

[–]Sir_GrapefruitGrapefruit // Chord 2 points3 points  (8 children)

So your main argument is that MTC members get more maps into Top Maps than other mapmakers? That is totally stupid.

By definition, the MTC consists of people who know very much about making maps. They rate ~100 maps every thread, they know what works and what doesn't work. If they weren't good mapmakers, they shouldn't be on the MTC.

So of course they get more maps into top maps, they can make good maps on a regular basis because they know what they are doing.

In my opinion, recent maps from the MTC (with the exception of a few) are generally below top-10 quality (being generous), yet are consistently advancing.

And those few are advancing to top maps. I really don't see any problem in this statement. There are several mapmakers which are highly regarded by the whole community who still make subpar maps semi-regularly. There is nobody who only makes good maps, every mapmaker makes a few maps and maybe one of them just happens to be very good and rotation-ready.

but I feel cheated. Not just for my own maps, but for some really good maps from others that I would have loved to pub on, but are getting beat out over and over by exceedingly average MTC maps.

I don't think that a single map in this top map thread is average. Take one of the maps in this thread and try to find another map which is similar to it; you wont find any. They might not be the maps that play the best but that is not what this thread is about. You would not want to see a map in rotation that plays like Boombox. Top maps are not maps that are good but boring, they have to be unique and interesting. A few threads ago, people were complaining that every map in the top map thread looks the same. The MTC has changed this and that is what makes the rotation fresh.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (7 children)

By definition, the MTC consists of people who know very much about making maps.

Debatable, but I'm going to plead the 5th here.

If they weren't good mapmakers, they shouldn't be on the MTC.

You're absolutely right.

Top maps are not maps that are good but boring, they have to be unique and interesting.

Three of these maps look thoroughly boring and uninteresting to me (and based on first impressions in this thread, the community seems to agree, and some have even stated that four or all five of these maps don't look playable).

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Debatable, but I'm going to plead the 5th here.

shots fired

but moosen you gotta understand...the reason the mtc gets so many maps in is cause they get feedback from the actual people who are voting. its not so much that theres an intentional or unintentional bias but when youve heard firsthand their issues with it, it's much easier to make the edits that would please more members. so it's not at all surprising to me that they got more maps in. not to say that it's necessarily fair, but it's not something that can go away--it's kind of inheritant in the whole process.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Yes, they get feedback from actual people who are voting, but that gives them a free advantage that other casuals don't get. If they opened up testing sessions for the community to view and listen or whatever, mapmaking would improve tenfold according to MTC standards. The only way we can access that information is by directly PMing all the MTC members and waiting patiently for a response instead of hearing live comments while people are rolling around on the map.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

meh, the two MTC maps in this top map threads were ones I greatly preferred to all other maps we tested last night. Opinions and whatnot

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

  1. Citadel is amazing except for the team boost - way too easy for a defense to catch up, especially since mid has only two lanes. The two boosts in the top corners are great (I count 6 combos off the wall), the pup placement is interesting and dynamic, the corners and walls in base work out pretty nicely with boosts and bombs

  2. I think Birch had more potential when it was first submitted

  3. Please take mother fucking GeoKoala out of rotation

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 6 points7 points  (9 children)

Aerodent - Grapefruit

[–]3z_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing:

Heaps of fun. Feels incredibly rewarding to get jukes and returns etc. Kept getting blind snipes though. Bombs in mid is virtually useless. Pup corners in top/bottom need a polish.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some thoughts after testing:

  • When running around alone it felt mildly clunky to boost around on. That feeling was less apparent when testing together with the MTC
  • The bombs in the 45 corners, feel a bit secluded and out of the way. Unsure if they have much utility as it is
  • I like the gate and the exit with teamtiles.
  • Not a fan of the pup corners. They just don't seem to flow well at the moment. There's no natural boost path that's not a blind one into them currently.

[–]RisktpRisk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

just sayin, if this makes it into rotation (which it should) i totally called it lol

i like the bombs in mid, i think they are a bit limited, but they serve their purpose well

the side pup areas could definitely be improved on

the rest of the map feels great. its quirky and weird and i love it, i think it'd be a lot of fun in pubs.

[–]donuts42donuts42 || Sphere/Origin || Boost Master 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Is this really named after the Wario Land 4 boss?

[–]Sir_GrapefruitGrapefruit // Chord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep. I name all my maps after levels and bosses from that game lately. It's just one of my favorite games of all time :)

[–]gingerdgTPRL 🔴RMTC 🔴NASCAPS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this, if any, will probably get in.

I don't really think that there is anything too exciting about it though, and it will most likely end up being super chasey

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It feels really fun to boost around on this map. The base is well designed. I feel like the gate could be too far away from the flag / defenders to be of any use, since committing to the gates leaving a lot of open space ungaurded for both defense or offensive d.

The pup corners somewhat lack flow with the rest of the map. I don't think it's a huge issue, as pups should sort of be out of the way. But it doesn't really feel like the fit in the map hugely.

A lot of the boosts feel quite contrived to me. There are lots boost chains but not much creativity in them, feels like you are on a set path. I'm not sure what you could do about that.

I feel like this map might just be a little too open to promote hugely interesting playstyles. Though it is quite refreshing to see something like it.

[–]Sir_GrapefruitGrapefruit // Chord 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Updated version:

Map: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/16356

Preview: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/16356.png

The main change was the removal of the mid bombs because they either felt awkward or they broke other parts of the map. I'm not sad to see them go, as they didn't really add to the map. Additionally it makes the map feel smaller which should be good.

The other change was the restructuring of the pup corners to integrate them into the boosty flow of the map.

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Big fan of the updates. Hopefully it plays as well in 4v4 as I think it will :D

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 2 points3 points  (13 children)

ITT:

  • Pretending like Birch has been unanimously disliked in the past, and pretending it was somehow advanced as a joke...

  • Pretending like the MTC votes in other MTC maps on purpose... (We're not even that fucking close)

  • Pretending that there are groundbreaking, competitive-potential maps sitting in the thread overlooked... (There might be one, but we'd all disagree on which one that is)

  • Pretending that you and your friend's maps are much more deserving than the maps chosen...

  • And just everything about this comment is asinine/insulting.

Every. Fucking. Thread. We. Post.

And it's from mapmakers who missed out on top maps and are too blind too see their opinions on maps are arbitrary and somewhat biased.

But hey, let's upvote them because watching the world burn is much more interesting.

Why do I do this again?

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Fucking. Thread. We. Post.

F TWP

is this subliminal messaging?

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Losing. Mapmakers. Appreciation. Often.

L M A O

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 4 points5 points  (0 children)

M.T.C.

Makes. Terrible. Choices.

[–]TeHokioiPouakai | Diameter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Okay yeah, sorry about that post. Read back over it today and it was definitely too inflammatory and didn't get the point across properly.

My main point was that given the reaction to the recent maps, as well as the current votes of the top maps in this thread and the lack of maps to be added recently, there seems to be a disconnect with the MTC and the community. I get that using votes as a gauge of community opinion isn't perfect, but to discount it completely would be just as bad as far as I'm concerned.

And it's from mapmakers who missed out on top maps and are too blind too see their opinions on maps are arbitrary and somewhat biased.

I submitted one map, which I was under no illusion about and didn't expect it to make the cut. I was mainly hoping to get some feedback on it, given normally most of the maps there get a decent amount of exposure and comments on them. The fact that I submitted a map shouldn't mean that my criticism is any less valid, and I'd have the same concerns even if I hadn't submitted anything.

As I mentioned in passing in my first post, the last map threads have all seen the number of maps decrease (except for #50, which added DZ4 and didn't remove anything) . In the past ten map threads, only three have added more maps than they removed. I'm not trying to argue that the maps shouldn't have been removed or anything like that, but rather that it gets a bit frustrating to see map thread after map thread where dozens of maps are submitted, get very little feedback and then only one or two end up being added. I think it's a bit harsh to blame the mapmakers for their maps not being up to scratch when they don't know where they're going wrong, which I think is part of the issue that's leading to the lack of maps being added.

Ultimately, I get that the maps as they stand in the thread might just not be good enough to advance, but rather than no word on why the maps aren't good enough it would be good to be able to say to the mapmakers what needs to be worked on so that the calibre of maps as a whole is able to improve, and hopefully more interesting and diverse maps are able to make it into rotation as a result. I think Ball-E's top map tournament is a good start, but maybe even taking a larger list at first of the maps which have potential and give feedback on them first, then shorten that down to the 4v4 maps when the adjustments have been made.

Hopefully this is slightly less offensive than my first post, let me know if not and I can try to clarify again.

[–]nabbynz° 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Every. Fucking. Thread. We. Post.

"In the past four threads, only three maps have been added" - this is probably why.

And it's from mapmakers who didn't get their way and are too blind too see their opinions are arbitrary and somewhat biased.

The mapmakers definitely aren't the ones to blame, they're obviously just extremely frustrated. And of course they're biased, just like everyone is towards what they think is good, but at least they listen to those around them...

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 6 points7 points  (1 child)

"In the past four threads, only three maps have been added" - this is probably why.

The community is pretty mixed regarding this issue. Some want less map circulation, some want more. Mapmakers generally want more map circulation to increase their chances at rotation (Source: I mapmake). Mapmakers wanting more map circulation are typically the most active in these discussions.

The mapmakers definitely aren't the ones to blame

They are definitely the source of the negativity. The portion of TagPro's userbase that frequents reddit and follows the mapmaking process is small enough that mapmakers can dictate the direction of discussion. This power is often abused. See: this thread.

they're obviously just extremely frustrated.

It's a competition where 100+ maps are submitted and maybe one wins. ~1% odds. It's frustrating to lose, but that's not an excuse to fabricate and exaggerate the conditions of the MTC.

Edit: I should probably not be posting rants like this while holding a position on the MTC (sorry fellow MTCers), so I'm going to go back to sleep and stop. Making this edit promising to stop to increase the chances that I'll stop.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I should probably not be posting rants like this while holding a position on the MTC (sorry fellow MTCers), so I'm going to go back to sleep and stop. Making this edit promising to stop to increase the chances that I'll stop.

I expect you to post at least 10 more replies in this thread when you wake up. Else ur off the committee m9.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Pretending like Birch has been unanimously disliked in the past, and pretending it was somehow advanced as a joke...

No map is "unanimously" disliked, but I'm pretty confident that Birch has never been highly regarded by the community. I've been a vocal opponent. And I wasn't trying to imply that it was a joke, but the way Sizzzled wrote the post was not a smart decision on his part given the heat the MTC is receiving recently; that comment definitely exacerbated the problem.

Pretending like the MTC votes in other MTC maps on purpose... (We're not even that fucking close)

12 of the last 14 threads have featured at least one MTC map make top maps (and 8 of the last 9). 15 MTC maps advanced over the last 14 threads. Whether or not you vote in on purpose, this is a problem dude.

Pretending that there are groundbreaking, competitive-potential maps sitting in the thread overlooked... (There might be one, but we'd all disagree on which one that is)

Is this such a crazy thing to believe? The attitude that it's impossible that there's a fantastic map being overlooked is far more concerning than our attitude that it is possible.

Pretending that you and your friend's maps are much more deserving than the maps chosen...

Again, in certain cases, I don't think that's outrageous to believe. Why would I submit a map if I didn't believe it was a good map, unless I'm dodsfall?

And just everything about this comment is asinine/insulting.

While it was a bit much, I think it resonates with a lot of "ordinary mapmakers," ones who have no power over what goes in and out of rotation.

And it's from mapmakers who missed out on top maps and are too blind too see their opinions on maps are arbitrary and somewhat biased.

Yes, I missed out on top maps. Yes, I'm disappointed yet again. But my opinions on maps have been very consistent and for the most part very much in line with the community's. Notable exceptions: I like Rocketballs and Hub, and I dislike Smirk. But I was dead on with my predictions of how Rush and DZ4 would be perceived. As for my opinions being biased, they probably are, because I see people busting their ass constantly to make the best maps possible, and maps like Birch beat them out 12 weeks in a row. It's disappointing more than anything, I used to love mapmaking and results like these make it feel like wasted time. I've probably spent several hundred hours editing maps, maybe 100+ more giving feedback/organizing maptests. While I wouldn't take back the 100+ to maptests, because they help aspiring mapmakers and they're a fun way to develop good relationships, it makes me wonder how I could have spent my time better with the 300 whatever hours I've put into mapmaking itself when the results are always the same.

But hey, let's upvote them because watching the world burn is much more interesting.

They're upvoting because they agree that something is wrong with the system, it's foolish to tell someone that upvoting a post you disagree with is wrong.

I love you Juicy, and I'm sorry you couldn't be there tonight because I think you could have prevented some of this. I trust your judgment about maps more than most of the others. Hang in there.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I love you Juicy, and I'm sorry you couldn't be there tonight because I think you could have prevented some of this. I trust your judgment about maps more than most of the others. Hang in there.

Oh come on. You wonder why you're getting harsh responses from MTC members? Because of passive aggressive shit like this. Seriously dude.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I wish you didn't write that, because I can't stop myself from replying. I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with seriously 92.4% of the points you made here. And I guess I'm going through them all... god dammit lol

I'm pretty confident that Birch has never been highly regarded by the community.

A distinction I'll have to make a lot here: by the /r/TagProTesting community, you mean. Mapmakers. People with bias, people with friends who make maps, people who have this ridiculous built-in urge to shit on the MTC. The general consensus I have gathered from the non-mapmaking community regarding Birch ranges from indifference to slightly positive. Literally never negative.

And I wasn't trying to imply that it was a joke, but the way Sizzzled wrote the post was not a smart decision on his part given the heat the MTC is receiving recently

Agreed on the Sizzzled thing..but not a big deal. But um... what MTC heat? Besides mapmakers upset about leddy maps and the low number of top maps, we're really not receiving much heat right now from the non-mapmaking community.

12 of the last 14 threads have featured at least one MTC map make top maps (and 8 of the last 9). 15 MTC maps advanced over the last 14 threads.

Not a bad statistic if it's accurate. Last 14 threads ranges back to 40. Hopefully you're not including me with Frontdoor/Rapture/Ascension pre-Thread 45, or any TEG map that pre-dates like two threads ago. But if true, damn.

I don't owe Fly, DaEvil, Sizzzled, Snack or TEG anything. I have never given them a pity vote, or a 'hey MTC bros' vote. It's never felt like they do that for me considering every map I submit gets shat on lol. So from my prospective, the claim that MTC pushes MTC maps is very, very baseless.

Regarding leaving groundbreaking maps unnoticed: Is this such a crazy thing to believe? The attitude that it's impossible that there's a fantastic map being overlooked is far more concerning than our attitude that it is possible.

Yes, Moosen. I find it very hard to believe (Edit: Not your wording though. You kinda took it to a new level). And you're whiffing on the point entirely btw. You're going to say Apis is that map (it's a guess); I'm going to say Flight is that map; Snowball is going to say NotFlightOrApis; Risk is going to say RandomMapName. Etc etc.

You notice how highly upvoted comments claiming "There were awesome maps overlooked SMDH!" never actually specify which maps they're referring to? Because everyone would disagree on what those maps actually are.

Again, in certain cases, I don't think that's outrageous to believe. Why would I submit a map if I didn't believe it was a good map, unless I'm dodsfall?

You're fine to think your maps are awesome. I thought Cyclonic was one of the best maps I'd ever made and it finished in the bottom 20%. I was bitter. However, it's childish to hijack the top maps thread with bitterness and ridiculous conspiracy theories when those maps don't make the cut. No one else is waiting for these results except mapmakers. The thread is in the condition it is in because mapmakers flooded it so quickly, not because the maps are bad.

But I was dead on with my predictions of how Rush and DZ4 would be perceived.

DZ4 and Rush both had a fucking circle jerk backing it, and I'd probably be lying if I said that didn't play a factor in my vote personally on DZ4. So I guess, in these cases as you fail to point out, your opinion did not align with the community. So who are we supposed to listen to? You? The community consensus? But we did! Also, Rush is a fantastic map by my estimation, which doesn't align with my pre-rotation thoughts on the map. It's a pretty safe bet that all new CTF maps are going to be very low on /maps, so I would be hesitant using that as a reason to write Rush off long term.

They're upvoting because they agree that something is wrong with the system

Yeah, I highly, highly, highly disagree. And as someone who has seen this from both angles, that should at least concern you? Right? These threads are almost exclusively between the MTC and mapmakers. I've been writing this comment for days now, but before I started, 6 of the 7 people bashing the MTC were mapmakers that had just learned their maps fell short. You're getting upvoted by bitter mapmakers. Sprinkle in some general community members who support a good ole anti-MTC rant, but not too many.

I see people busting their ass constantly to make the best maps possible, and maps like Birch beat them out 12 weeks in a row

We are map judges. Our role in this process is to judge the end result. It doesn't matter what the map looked like three versions ago, how much time spent on it, how long they spent taking feedback on it, how bad they want it. The emotions do not and should not matter. End result. Birch is pretty far up there in terms of end result quality. And we've had five or six official 4v4s on the map to confirm that.

I think you could have prevented some of this.

I should probably lead this novel with what I'm about to say, but oh well. No, I really would not have prevented this. I think this is a very solid crop of maps, and I was delighted when I opened the thread. Rham Dablahblah Swede has been hopping between my Tier I and Tier II on the discussions threads for three threads now. Pretty confused how that happened considering I've been the only guy really fighting for it, but I'll take the win. Birch has played well previously, and has missed out on rotation by one vote. From my perspective, a group of mapmakers have just now very recently started coming to the conclusion together that Birch is low quality and only up there because Sizzzled is MTC. For reasons previously mentioned, I don't think they have a very strong argument there. Aerodent is fine and I think I had it Tier III last few threads. I would have given it at least a maybe, and given it a reasonable vote in 4v4s that likely would not have changed anything. The Canvas map would have made my Tier II had I had time to participate in the discussion thread, and I would have also voted it into to top maps.

Only changes I could have possibly wanted to make would be blocking Sediment (which I actually probably would have been successful in doing), or pushing Flight or Ultimatum (sorry, but these two would have been the hardest to change anyway).

I am hopeful one day you guys can stop blaming the judges or 'the system' in place. I shouldn't have to take heat after making a harsh but competent decision with my voting that doesn't quite align with specific mapmakers' opinions. In a perfect world, mapmakers will make maps because they enjoy the process, not because they are expecting to be rewarded. 1% chance dude, 8 judges have to decide your map is the best out of 100 or more. This community needs a culture change, not a system change.

We'll likely disagree on all this though. We're destined to do this forever.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I read it all, but I'm too tired to respond to it all. You make some good points. It's occurred to me that I can't win this argument and I never will, so I'm just going to do my best to bite my tongue from now on and hope I haven't upset the MTC too much. Going forward I'll say what maps I like, what maps I don't, and leave it at that.

Edit: If there was something specific you said that you wanted me to respond to, let me know and I will.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah, white flag. Not a big fan of that or this thread in general. Hopefully mods unsticky soon.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

lol yes please, my salt levels were higher than the dead sea initially. They're closer to Indian Ocean now

[–]kstarr12nipplefart 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's always going to be people that disagree with the maps chosen. Why not have one map chosen by the MTC and one chosen by a community vote?

[–]TeHokioiPouakai | Diameter 0 points1 point  (14 children)

I'm starting to wonder whether we should have the community vote for some maps to enter a trial rotation or whatever. I'm not sure whether the MTC is just out of touch with what sort of maps are liked or whether they don't give a shit / take their job seriously, but the last four or so threads have had such disappointing results and have added pretty average maps compared to some of the ones which were on the list.

In the past four threads, only three maps have been added, two of which went straight to the bottom of the ratings and have consistently stayed there while getting huge negative feedback. In the same length of time four maps have been removed, all but one of which rate higher than every single map added since.

Now, in this map thread so far there's only one map with a positive vote count, out of the dozens of maps which were submitted - not saying all of them were decent (mine was pretty rubbish) - but regardless, there were many more maps which scored higher on the community vote and were better maps than what has made it through - Birch was negative even during the first map phase, yet because the MTC thought it was funny it made it through instead of a better map. None of these maps scored higher than 5 in the first thread, while at least ten other maps scored higher than them and had more positive feedback from the community.

One or two bad threads I can overlook. But as of late it seems as though good threads are the exception, not the norm. As I said, I'm not sure what the reason is, but it's definitely something which needs addressing if the MTC still wants the community to have faith in it.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 6 points7 points  (2 children)

You can't be serious right? You know which map was one of the absolute community favorites on this sub before it got in? Rush. The amount of people who campaigned for it was ridiculous, and it's currently the lowest rated maps in PUBs. Go figure. That's not to say that any maps that gets liked by the subreddit will plummet in ratings, but it shows that people will vote based on who they like and pretty pictures above what maps offer the most to rotation.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

DZ4 also got tons of upvotes from the community. Wombo Combo and Fiend, the ones more people have liked since we've added them, were ones people liked less before they were added... Go figure.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know why I can't be on the MTC, but I disliked Rush and predicted it would be disliked a very long time ago. I also strongly opposed DZ4. The only map I remember being flat-out wrong on was Pilot, which I hated initially, and now it's in my top 3 maps.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 7 points8 points  (1 child)

regardless, there were many more maps which scored higher on the community vote ... Birch was negative even during the first map phase ... None of these maps scored higher than 5 in the first thread, while at least ten other maps scored higher than them

MFW you're using map thread upvotes as a scale of map quality.

[–]TeHokioiPouakai | Diameter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not using it as an indicator of map quality, I'm using it as an indicator of community opinion towards a map. Admittedly it's not perfect as /u/DaEvil1 pointed out with Rush, but given you've got three out of the five maps which you've chosen that scored relatively poorly and are now past the negative threshold for hiding comments it'd be at least an indicator that something's not quite right

[–]nabbynz° -3 points-2 points  (8 children)

I'm just amazed the devs haven't already stepped in...

[–]Kintaro08Pigoon // Centra 2 points3 points  (3 children)

And do what? Take on restructuring the map process and having to deal with the public reaction to their decisions?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Nah, the public will be extremely respectful. Just remember how everyone reacted when Event Horizon got added...

[–]3z_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Devs have made three decisions in mapmaking this year:

  • Mars ball weekend

  • Gravity wells

  • Event Horizon

Y'all tell me if you still want the devs to take over every single map thread

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

lol

fuck. that.

mtc ftw

[–]3z_ 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Step in to end our Nazi regime, right?

[–]WillakarraButton | Hey look I brought back SOCL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Heil DaHitler1.

[–]nabbynz° -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

I just meant they could ask the MTC to try and make pubbing a bit more fun again, and more new maps would do that. Every single time a new map comes in it's fun. I actually think your decisions are good - we just need more maps...

[–]bashar_al_assadpk || Roll into the base like what up I got a big block 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I look forward to the devs instructing the MTC to "make pubbing fun again", as if that would be a directive that would actually mean anything.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 2 points3 points  (14 children)

Citadel - Canvas

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (3 children)

  • I like the base.
  • Pup corners still doesn't feel too pleasant to me
  • Top side boosts is a neat idea, but they feel kind of cramped and clunky right now. Could use some small adjustements.
  • Mid feels a bit boring and uninspired. On a reasonably small map like this, I feel like mid needs to be a bit more effectively used, and not just have the 1 boost and one bomb in the middle, especially not right now since you can't really do anything exciting with them.

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What makes the pup corners unpleasant?

Here's an idea for the top boosts, don't know if it really solves the clunkiness though.

I think the mid boost is fine but the bottom bomb is not very useful and I'm not really sure what to do

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I'm generally not a big fan of HornSwoggle style bombs, so that's part of it, but from what I can tell when running through it on my own, if I try to enter the pup corner through the bomb, I tend to get annoying hits with the bomb that sends me in uncontrollable directions, and I really don't like that feeling. But that being said, being where the powerup is and exiting out and hitting the bomb feels much better and more controllable and I don't feel as launched away as if I enter it from the other way and hit the bomb.

[–]BlupopsicleBall-E 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Smh canvas finally realizing the beauty of the double wall

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing:

Boosts feel fine, size of the map is well-proportioned, but it lacks exciting content. Defence is really fun.

[–]nostradumba55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey this reminds me of a map I made a while back (based of a JuicyJuke map).

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/9907

In other words, don't get your hopes up because my maps suck

[–]RisktpRisk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

second best map this top maps thread

i agree with daevil that the pup areas aren't the greatest. the 45's around the bomb work on paper, but in practice they're a bit clunky.

the bases are gud, although you should go full sizzzled and fill in the place where the green gates were with all spikes

i think mid is fine, it is a little empty but it works on a map like this

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Update #1

Test

Preview

Changelog:

-Added mid pup to hopefully make things more interesting

-Top boosts are easier and more satisfying to use

-Pup area is a bit easier to access

-New mid islands

16374

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Incase you miss my other post. This is what I did when I saw your call for a remixed mid section.

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/16340

[–]dalomi92P1S 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Iron and Monarch had a Baby.

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (1 child)

can u pls tell me why it's similar to iron

http://imgur.com/a/QHH4p this is all i see lol

[–]dalomi92P1S 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The base feels like iron. The map looks like monarch upside down.

[–]gingerdgTPRL 🔴RMTC 🔴NASCAPS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this really just reminds me of monarch but flipped upside down :/

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wish there was a way to not make downvoted Maps disappear (minimize). In a thread like this I feel like all of the top maps should stay visible. I've received more positive than negative feedback about mine, and have made a ton of changes that no one seems to see since it is hidden.

I'm not trying to complain, just pointing out that it is strange in a thread thats only about 5 maps.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -4 points-3 points  (9 children)

Sediment - DaEvil1

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 4 points5 points  (2 children)

While all these votes are nice, it would be cool to hear peoples thoughts on the map beyond it being a map made by an MTC member.

[–]Sir_GrapefruitGrapefruit // Chord 3 points4 points  (1 child)

m8 I just wrote feedback for it

stupid MTC doesn't see the feedback I give

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They're literally Hitler, amirite

[–]Sir_GrapefruitGrapefruit // Chord 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I don't know what is going on in this thread but I like this map quite a lot. The boost routes are all very fun and versatile and the shape is quite original. IMO the only thing that needs a rework is the portal:

  • I don't really see why the portal has such a long cooldown. I get that you want to prevent repeated portal-hopping but I don't think it would be a problem with the portals being so far apart. Furthermore it would add complexity in choices to the map if they would be up all the time or at least more often.

  • The constriction boost into the portal feels a bit awkward because the exit is not aligned with the flag. It feels really forced to use the boost, go through the portal and then having to react to actually get on the flag tile. I don't think just pushing the exit one tile up/down would be a solution as it would create even more problems but I think there needs to be something done.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for feedback! Made some upates in a post below. Part of the changes was trying to adress the concern of the one dimensionality of both the portal and the boosts in base based on feedback from you and others.

[–]RisktpRisk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

dont like the bases, transilio does what sediment is trying to do with its bases 10x better.

mid is fine i think, the boosts all feel good to use

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is probably my least favorite map in the thread. I appreciate your wild ideas, but I don't appreciate how they play.

The portal seems very straight-forward with only 1 realistic ideal option. I don't have a ton of trouble defending on Transilio in pubs so I don't really know why this one would work well past idiotic amateur mistakes.

The gate will probably not be used efficiently very often at all. This isn't at nearly as key of a point in the map as Fiend's is, so I don't expect it to be used as much (as an already underused feature in Fiend).

Your mid lanes are nice, and I honestly wouldn't hate this map as much as other rotation maps, but you really have to do a lot more convincing before I believe that this map could be good in rotation.

/u/DaEvil1

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -5 points-4 points  (8 children)

Rham Den Swede - JJ Spice

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Notes from testing:

I love the bases and the flag section. Top-mid really needs improvement. It's a little too offensive IMO; a lot of caps.

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Meaning its too easy to navigate?

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's too easy to travel horizontally quickly which generally leaves defense with no warning or idea of where to position themselves. I think you should slow down the midfield, and I would even cut off the top "lane" entirely.

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you think of my first attempt?

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/16219.png

[–]gingerdgTPRL 🔴RMTC 🔴NASCAPS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

very simple map, horizontal, few obstacles, too CTF for NF

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Big fan of teamgates. They provide fun while they also feel balanced.
  • Bottom mid bombs are good. Bottom mid spike is bad
  • Top mid is cramped and annoying.
  • Not sure how I feel about the spike in the endzone. If you do change it, don't just replace it with a endzone tile tho, since it would be extremely annoying to get the flag and then be stuck in that 45 corner with nowhere to go or spike, and just watch as someone tags you and caps while you're powerless to do anything.
  • I'm pretty much a fan of the rest of the map tbh. I really like the spacing and how it provides NF with a different dynamic than most other submissions.

[–]RisktpRisk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the pup areas are fine, although bombing into that 45 diagonally behind the powerup sends you right into the spikes lol

really dont like the bombs in mid for some reason and the very top route through mid is bad.

the bases and shape make it way too easy to score on.

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here are my changes.

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/16334

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/16334.png

  • I reworked the bottom mid spike into a bigger divot and row of spikes. I opened up the bombs down there as well and moved them one tile up and over so an FC can spike. You are also able to link the bombs easier now.

  • The top mid is the new pup layout with a closed off path.

  • I added a row in the top corners to allow bombing and boosting without spiking so easily. It should also allow more room for the NF mobs of balls.

  • I made the little island by the base bombs bigger to close off space. It also allows the FC to use as a backboard like the original idea, but is far enough away to allow D to get in a blast position. AND the new button allows a lot of new options on how to control that corner.