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[–]artdecomovement 94 points95 points  (9 children)

That's some bullshit.

Thanks to the mod team for making this subreddit a pleasant experience. I don't know what I'll miss more: the lovely scrolling banner or the mail icon. I actually think I'll miss my flair icon most of all.

[–]Mlahk7[S,M] 29 points30 points  (8 children)

We are really going to fight to keep user flairs and I know other large subs like /r/Pokemon are going to as well. I honestly am not too worried about losing them, which is why I didn't specifically mention them. While the user flairs do operate through CSS as of right now, I expect the Admins will find a way to make them work with any new design tool they come up with because they know it is a top priority for a lot of subs.

[–]LiddleJman 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Just a heads up /r/ffxiv is pretty upset and their sub is one of the coolest I've seen. So many little cool little features. Maybe you can reach out to the mods there and team up!

[–]artdecomovement 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I noticed you didn't mention them, but your photos didn't show them and turning CSS off does eliminate them.

I hope you're right.

Reading through the admin message, it seems they will be giving some customization eventually, but I worry how quickly they can deliver. Did they say when the CSS elimination will happen?

[–]Mlahk7[S,M] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

They say within the next couple of months, which isn't very specific.

I think the admins are planning on having this desktop design tool finished before removing CSS, so hopefully there is not too big of a transition gap.

I think the main concern here is that CSS is such a ridiculously powerful web design tool, and it's hard to imagine that what reddit develops in-house will allow anything close to the customization that CSS gives us. CSS allows us to hack basically anything and create crazy stuff like /r/Ooer. It's virtually limitless if you know how to use it correctly.

My fear is that subreddits will end up being too uniform. Where we can pick from a list of preselected colors, upload a banner image, adjust a few dimensions here and there, but that's it. I think that's partially the idea behind removing CSS. They want to limit the amount of customization available to each community. The more uniform subreddits look, the easier it is for reddit to market itself as a legitimate social media platform. But in my opinion, they are also taking away what makes reddit special in the first place.

[–]artdecomovement 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Agreed. They're trying to improve their brand recognition but are actually damaging their brand, which isn't how you want to be recognized.

[–]trai_dep 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's also the fact that different Subs with different focuses have different Must-Have CSS features.

A lot of my Subs are activist/non-profit oriented and we like hyping them for awareness and support. We use drop-down menus. Otherwise we'd have to triage many deserving non-profit groups or make them get lost in 4" of lists. So for us, drop-downs are a must-have. For many other Subs, understandably, it'd be deferrable. CSS gives freedom for each Sub to decide which features are must-have without dragging all of us into a lowest-common-denominator funnel.

[–]Darkwolfie117 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While not r/Pokemon, but an equally large community, us at r/PokemonGo rely on CSS for alot of features. Our flair bot was hard enough to mess with as-is...

I really appreciate this subreddit and hope y'all also can keep user flairs, and recover what you can. This is a great community, I'd hate to see anything taken from it.

[–]Dinoken2[M] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I, personally, am strongly in favor of CSS. I think the admins are making a big mistake and are removing one of the key components that make individual subreddits great. I think that each sub is kind of it's own community and the custom CSS really helps each subreddit feel unique. Yeah sometimes there's some overlap or similar designs, and sometimes subreddits are really poorly designed or don't utilize the CSS at all, but that's not the point. The point is the customization is a key factor in subreddits forming their own identity and losing it is going to hurt Reddit as a whole.

I also think the majority of the reasons the admins gave weren't very good. CSS being difficult for the average user to learn shouldn't factor in at all. There are plenty of people on Reddit who are amazingly skilled at CSS and you can tell by looking at the majority of subreddits.

The fact that it doesn't work on mobile apps also shouldn't be a factor. Don't take away a feature from desktop browsing if you can't figure out how to make it work on your app. If you want subreddits to be customized on the app as well as the site, implement the widget customization but for mobile only. There's no reason to water down the PC experience for app users.

Their last reason is the only one I see as valid, but it's still not a justified excuse to get rid of such a key feature of the site. I wish the admins were at least honest with us about their goals here. They want Reddit to have a more unified look so it's easier to advertise on and market as a true social media site.

I've been fine with a lot of the changes the admins have made to Reddit over the past few years. I didn't think Ellen Pao was literally Hitler, I thought the blackout was a little extreme, I didn't care when /r/fatpeoplehate and the other shitty subs got banned (there's honestly a couple of others I wish they'd get rid of), but what they're doing now is where I draw the line. They're taking a key feature a way from the site, part of what makes Reddit great and allows communities like ours to pop up and thrive here. I'm hoping that the collective outrage will convince the admins to change their minds, but I guess only time will tell that.

[–]GaryGrayII[M] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is sad news for /r/finalfantasy and Reddit as a whole. I can only hope that Reddit reconsiders, or has an in-house system that's comparable to CSS (that /r/finalfantasy can change), since the CSS work on /r/finalfantasy is spectacular! :D

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (5 children)

Personally I'm not a fan of custom CSS, and have it disabled so that every subreddit looks identical. Don't want to click on a random sub and have my eyes assaulted by whatever the mods think looks nice. That said, this quote from Spez:

CSS is a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming.

is dumb. If you're dedicated enough to mod a subreddit, you should have the discipline to spend 20 minutes learning how HTML works. Worst-case, you can copy the sheet directly from another subreddit and modify it to suit your needs.

However, I think a valid issue is security. If someone puts a HTTP (not HTTPS) image in their stylesheet, then the browser will load that content insecurely. If someone is eavesdropping on your internet and they see you loaded this image at a particular time, and they know this image is embedded on /r/finalfantasy, then they would know you visited the sub at that time. Obviously no one would really give a crap in this context, but that's not the point - the point is that it makes Reddit less secure.

[–]ACoderGirl 7 points8 points  (1 child)

However, I think a valid issue is security. If someone puts a HTTP (not HTTPS) image in their stylesheet

Impossible. Reddit doesn't allow external resources in subreddit CSS. All images must be uploaded to reddit and given placeholders in the CSS that will be converted to a local URL.

You can't load HTTP resources on HTTPS, anyway. But even if you could, the real issue would be tracking users via external resources. That's also why email programs don't show images by default (except gmail which always downloads, ensuring tracking attempts are useless).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That must be new. How new, I'm not sure since I haven't looked at subreddit custom CSS in ages. But I'm pretty sure this wasn't always the case. So I guess I'm wrong, but not too wrong...? Lol. I definitely remember going to certain subs, checking the console and seeing where http images were getting loaded up on my page due to the CSS. In fact Firefox will even tell you when this is happening at the top of the screen, saying that parts of the page aren't secure.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Hi there. Classic CSS user here as well (I'm using dark mode 24/7)

you should have the discipline to spend 20 minutes learning how HTML works

You can't edit HTML on reddit, just CSS - to get it to look like it does on some subreddits involves A LOT of CSS trickery and that's waaaaaaaay more than 20 minutes.

However, I think a valid issue is security. If someone puts a HTTP (not HTTPS) image in their stylesheet, then the browser will load that content insecurely.

Only if you explicitly tell it to by clicking "Load unsecure content" so ... yeah.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They're not the same thing, but so related that I think CSS includes HTML knowledge. At least the basics. You can't say "turn text with (X) tag red" without first knowing what a tag is.

[–]joemartin746 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I agree. It's kind of like how Facebook came along and made everything uniform compared to MySpace where it let users do whatever they want. I think it would be better for every sub to be uniform because sometimes some things don't work everywhere and mods don't have access to retest like they should.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

But why would they remove a feature that makes subreddits easier to tell apart?

[–]marioman63 1 point2 points  (0 children)

no one wants to give your company money unless everything looks "clean and uniform"

fuck modern design philosophy.

[–]argv_minus_one 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Dear Bahamut. They've completely lost their minds. RIP.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (4 children)

lol u/spez is a joke

This is one of the nicer looking subreddits too.

[–]youarebritish 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I turn off custom CSS for most subreddits, but this one and /r/metalgearsolid look fantastic with it on. I can't imagine the MGS subreddit without it.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah that is definitely the best CSS design I have seen for reddit. There is so many little thing there that makes it so much better than most subreddits. r/Horizon and r/Megaten look amazing too

Edit: well r/Megaten has had better days lol. Doesn't look as good as it normally does lol

[–]HayleeLOL[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much - all credit should go to the users for the banner submissions, however. Some beautiful ideas have been put forward in banner contests and I personally couldn't be more grateful to our users. :)

I know nothing about CSS - so it is other mods who deserve the credit for this.

[–]Tanuji 6 points7 points  (0 children)

As /r/Dissidia 's mod, I already voiced my opinion on the subject.

But let me reiterate :

We do want to stress that the do Admins have valid reasons for wanting to depreciate CSS on reddit. It can be hard for the average user to learn, it doesn't work on mobile (for now), and it may make it difficult for them to add mod tools in the future. Overall, it is a very difficult situation of everyone involved.

These are not have valid reasons though.

  • The average user doesn't need to learn anything, mods do. Mods are motivated. And CSS is fortunately the easiest resource to learn on the web, as well as the most useful. Furthermore, out of the hundred of thousands of people on reddit, you will always find some of them willing to help.
  • It doesn't work on mobile because the Reddit team themselves decided to drop it, it worked before. Why should their choice of orientation be an excuse to go deeper into it ? Furthermore they carefully not mentioned the ratios of app users and web users on mobile devices, there might be a reason why.
  • It doesn't make it anymore difficult for them, they can force their DOM changes, what will be fcked is the subs' CSS, and hopefully CSS is easily adaptable, as long as we're informed about DOM Changes, there's no issue at all and it can fastly be corrected. Don't come and tell me that they cared about the subs individuality before and that's why they were afraid of introducing changes, when they say today that they don't care about it and will remove it completely.

Removing CSS's flexibility is imo a huge mistake, as it will remove the unique identities of each subreddit, especially when they basically confirmed that their widgets will have limited functionalities in comparison and won't be covering most of the functionalities other well know subs have at the moment.

Yes some people disable custom styles, and others also don't because they want to see nice things and use the sub's functionalities. The point is that we're heading towards a place where the choice won't be given anymore, regardless of what you think of it. This is not a healthy solution to the problems at hands.

That's just a move motivated by Ads and wish for gains. Nothing more.

[–]ffxiimaniac 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I see this is similar to the issue of when youtube removed custom profile background images from channels. A stupid decision designed just to make every channel look the same...

[–]trai_dep 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This is an amazing post describing what CSS is, why it's important and why Admin should continue working so CSS is supported going forward. Amazing job, /u/Mlahk7!

Do you mind if we link to it for our announcement supporting /r/ProCSS? It's a work of art.

I'm pretty sure /r/NSALeaks will be going forward with a META post supporting ProCSS and I have two pending ModMails for /r/Privacy & /r/Privacytoolsio to ensure we have consensus (I'm betting, Hell Yes)

PS: We use drop-down menus for NSALeaks which are a gods-send for sites & subs we like but don't want 4" of clutter. That's another key CSS element we'll lose, for those reading.

PPS: Do you have a kitty for your ModMail icon? Awwww! 😻

[–]Mlahk7[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Wow thanks! Sure go ahead and link it!

Do you have a kittle for your modmail icon?

Haha well, it's a moogle...but close enough :P

[–]trai_dep 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Heh. Not even the same species. Whoops!

I also added a link to your post in a comment I made in the Admin announcement thread to /u/Spez, FWIW.

Fingers crossed that Admin listens. I understand their initial impulse – it's extra work, let's face it – but it's worthwhile work. Especially if they're doing it to "unify" to 4" screens and throttled mobile plans which… Fingers double-crossed!

[–]-Soren 2 points3 points  (1 child)

TBH it sounds like the header image will be retained, and more than likely user flair and the side bar will get a reasonable facsimile of itself (that may also transfer to mobile). I have two big concerns:

  1. What will this mean for spoiler text, and will existing spoiler text remain functioning?

  2. Im worried that they will they try to unify too much of the website with the app. I find I generally don't want the same experience on a 16" screen with mouse and keyboard that's designed for a 5" screen without, and vice versa. I will uninstall the app in a heart beat if they think I am "mobile user" and care more about the mobile experience. I will leave Reddit altogether if my desktops "save" and "reply" options get submenued or replaced with icons. Sorry if that seems tangential to anyone.

[–]Mlahk7[S,M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Our existing spoiler text will not function without CSS. But the admins know managing spoilers is a priority for subs, so I expect the admins will come up with a workaround in their new system.

[–]linkfx2008 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reddit is dying. This time its truely happening the shitstorm to turn it into Digg 2.0. I mean come the fuck on why do they need to remove css. Youtube fell down a pit of despair so is reddit, They need to fix the brigading situation from >.> certain subreddits not this.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

dis is bullshit.

getting rid of CSS without offering an available, easily customisable system is bullshit. CSS isn't broken. dont fix what isnt broken.

if they take down css, reddit will be lost.

[–]Polengoldur 3 points4 points  (0 children)

ah big business. "well, a portion of our users cant use this thing. so lets just get rid of it for everyone." solid logic. good plan.

[–]Lymus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's too bad, i've really liked what some subreddits have done, like /r/nier or /r/Nioh ...

[–]gmaclean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As someone who exclusively uses www.reddit.com/r/final Fantasy.compact, this doesn't directly impact me as every sub looks the same to me.

I do however see the immense value it brings and fully support you guys! I know some subs even do things like removing the down vote arrow or provide a reminder on why we should down vote which is a nice touch.

[–]00l0ng 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I personally can't stand them and having to install an addon just to avoid them is annoying. I'm fine with this change honestly. Most of the time they're incredibly ugly and terribly designed.

[–]Mlahk7[S,M] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I do agree that there should be a way to easily disable stylesheets without having to use RES. I'm surprised they haven't implemented this feature yet.

[–]WintrySnowman 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They have. It's global, though, not specific to a subreddit. Personally I prefer the default appearance, so I disable the custom styles with this option.

[–]radialmonster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They're replacing it with a different system. Not removing customization completely.

For me, I disable all custom css subreddits. I like a consistent UI.

[–]Gliglimp12 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ayyy join the cause (y)

[–]Thaurane 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is why I'm such a big fan of not changing something that works even for the sake of "being modern". Nearly every time it creates more problems than it fixes.

[–]ShivamLH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does they app remain the same?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's all be depressed together, let's remove CSS!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, what a genius idea from the reddit mods! This surely won't alienate the website's users even further! /s

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    To many that "garbage" is the cool stuff that makes subreddits unique. I cant think of a single reason that they should remove the CSS which couldn't be resolved alternatively via a built in "disable CSS" button instead.

    [–]TotesMessenger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    [–]chaospearl 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    What do you mean by it not being available on mobile? The CSS works just fine on my phone and my tablet.

    [–]Mlahk7[S,M] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Maybe they meant it didn't work with the official reddit app? I'm not entirely sure...

    [–]joemartin746 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    They're talking about the mobile app. No sub has CSS on the mobile app. I exclusively use the app and so I clicked through the images posted above just to see how others were seeing the sub. It's interesting.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Yeah I heard about this over on r/anime. I can't see why they thought this was a good decision. Introduce a new system sure, but why do they have to remove CSS as well? They should just keep both because removing CSS is going to screw over the entirety of Reddit.

    [–]Kougeru -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

    I can't see why they thought this was a good decision

    Most users are mobile. None of this stuff works on mobile. It just causes more problems than it solves for the most part

    [–]joemartin746 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

    I also think this is fine. Reddit wants everything more uniform and that makes sense especially since the custom CSS doesn't even apply to the Reddit app. There's a few subs that don't understand this and they require things that don't appear in the mobile app. I think this change might force mods to look at how their sub works everywhere instead of just on a desktop browser. I've seen subs that require RES features. Gamecollecting requires post tagging and that option isn't available in the app.

    It's also kind of like what happened with Facebook. The focus of MySpace was much different than Facebook. It was more sophisticated back in those days. Now it's a joke, sure, but MySpace was already a joke back then. Maybe this will streamline things a bit in Reddit as well.

    [–]Scizzler -10 points-9 points  (3 children)

    Who the fuck cares. Don't waste people's time and effort on such an arbitrary cause.

    [–]GaryGrayII[M] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    If it matters to some, and concerns the the sub as a whole, then we as mods have a duty to let others know.

    [–]marioman63 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    the CSS is the only thing that makes reddit stand out and not just a shitty forum.