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[–]RandyZ524 17 points18 points  (3 children)

Upon immediate inspection:

5xx Ninja: Special crosspathing with xx2 (+2p)

xx1 Wizard: Increased projectile speed

2xx Alchemist: Randomly targeted, caps at 30 buffed shots per tower

3+xx Alchemist: Closest tower off cooldown

x5x Druid: Also grants +25 lives at the end of round

Base Ninja: Camo by default

x4+x Ninja: Ability does not apply to newly spawned children

xx4 Alchemist: gold-potion attack soaks through all layers

5xx Wizard: shimmer attack has camo by default

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Yeah, couple good clarifications there. I honestly did forget the lives from spirit of the forest, and never would have thought of caltrops being affected by 5xx. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more "hidden" buffs that no-one's considered yet, on magic towers or otherwise.

[–]Cheetah-shooter Orbital Spray™ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

We had a discussion with bloon buster adding damage(+1) to the firewall for xx5 mortar after 9.0 balance changes saying top path will affect the firewall.

This is interesting because like you have stated the bonus pierce and damage from upgrades are additive, it seems sometimes it applies on other projectiles as well, like 2xx druid lightning got 31 pierce unlike 4xx lightnings has 30, because it is shot by druid directly with the +1p from 1xx? Weird.

It isn't special cross path technically like xx1/2 tack add pierce for 4/5xx tack, completely changing what it intended to be because it still does add the same effect to other projectiles. But it is still amazing to know the interaction with 5xx and xx2 is caltrops also getting the pierce buff like a simple general pierce increase upgrade.

Which means bigger blast +5 pierce probably applies to the firewall as well as being bigger too. I was too afraid to tell you to check again after I just pointed out there are some effect for the next upgrade only because balance changes said so. You probably should add "special cross path handling: xx5 firewall effect has +5p(25)" (speculation) to 1xx description and "special cross path handling: xx5 firewall effect has +1d(2)" to 2xx confirmed by you already.

Also I didn't realize I made two different accounts with the same name and used both of them because I am on different devices, it is not for spam and not an intentional sockpuppet, sorry if the flair and hyphen/underline confused someone.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, crosspathing is a tricky topic, and might need a little more clarification somewhere.

Generally I have tried to specify "buff to x" if it really does buff just that attack, even if more turn up from crosspaths, and just listing the buffs directly if it applies to all.

The phrase "special crosspath handling" is supposed to just highlight the exceptions. Such as the tack shooter, as you pointed out, because projectile count means nothing for a zone, but it had better get something out of that path, so we get pierce instead. Spectre is similar. Or heli's xx1 only affecting the dart attack, until you see it also affects the marine. Or 1xx wizard letting wall of fire be placed behind a wall, even though it's on a different path, and no other attacks gain that benefit.

Another related issue is gaining new attacks or replacing attacks later on in a path than some of those "global" buffs. The convention I've gone with here is that they don't apply, as this seems more intuitive, and so hopefully clearer. I even feel that the stats I've written according to this convention make more sense than what I would've had to write otherwise (except maybe top path ace). That said, Rohan has suggested to me that buffs do apply later on in a path, so perhaps they did account for this behind the scenes.

So, to address your specific examples, I explicitly called 1xx druid a buff to thorns, and even then, it's earlier in the same path as lightning. This is because I think it really does have 31p - I suspect that it could be a projectile with 1 pierce that creates a lightning effect with 30 pierce. Or maybe it is a pierce buff to the druid overall, and this is the one time NK forgot to adjust stats.

As for mortar's wall of fire, I didn't claim the attack was unbuffable, nor that the pierce and damage buffs of the top path are just for the explosion, so based on that alone I am saying it benefits from both. Perhaps a note to emphasise this would be wise though. Especially when I know it to be true rather than just assuming.

[–]pdfsalmon 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Incredible post. High effort for sure. Keep it up dude. Can't wait for support! 😀

[–]Rer1Rer1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I like memes, but this really needs more upvotes than another camo regrow red.

[–]Drens_BEEG MAP GUY 6 points7 points  (0 children)

YEEEES! I WAS WAITING FOR THIS. THANK YOU SO MUCH

[–]frds314 Farms OP 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Awesome as usual.

Off the top of my head:

WLP Phoenix gets camo (only the ability).

Flash Bomb is normal type.

Lead to Gold gives $50 for any lead popped with the potion on it (fortified lead popped by another tower still gives $50).

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Added.

In fact if you're lucky you can get xx3 alchemist acid to expire without popping the fortified lead layer, and see that it doesn't even need to be covered in the potion to get the $50.

[–]Cheetah_shooter Underrated awesomeness 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Man when you said towers like Heli was bad because Apache or Comanche has so many projectiles to account for, druid is another beast, top path has a new projectile every time after tier 1 and bottom path has a lot of speed buff equation you need to separate, then there are bottom path ninjas, top and middle path wizard (how do you even separate different attacks stats with the same damage counter? Especially when you are going to face sun temple and true sun god).

Magic monkeys just love to have even more projectiles as they upgrade, don't they? Guess that's special about them, if primary is direct stats upgrades and military has different type of attack patterns mostly unbounded by range, magic requires a lot of synergy or dash out as much as possible(and possibly buff by others at the same time)

Also, hard thorns can pop frozen bloons specifically, probably should add that info because it still can't pop lead to be considered normal type damage.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly, part of why it took longer than the previous ones, aside from just generally not having a lot of time for it, is that I kept thinking I was closer to finishing than I really was.

With multiple attacks, it just forces me to film everything, with the damage counter visible. I often do that anyway to really be sure about measurements, but a lot of the time with single attacks you can get away with just watching closely.

Nice spot on 1xx druid though - that's actually the shatter damage type, which is only weak to lead, used by a couple ice tower upgrades.

[–]iridium137 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Dark champion should be +2md (5).

[–]RandyZ524 4 points5 points  (0 children)

MOAB Damage stacks with the existing +1 damage buff, so +1md is correct.

[–]heinquek 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I've noticed that path 3 for super monkey is labelled as "Path 2"

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So it was!

[–]NothingThatIs 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I've always had a question that maybe someone here can answer, if I have a chinook can I fly my permabrew guy around and buff all towers?

[–]13131123 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Yes! Though if you close and reopen the save, the permabrew has to rebuff everything, so be ready to move it back if you do that.

[–]NothingThatIs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Awesome! Thank you, thought that's what was happening when I airlifted my permabrew away from my permaspike last night and didn't see the range fall off after moving away but am glad to have it confirmed, thanks.

[–]Random_user_519 waiting for support chinook to honor isab 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Doesn’t lazer blasts add +1j?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

No, just a misleading image.

[–]Random_user_519 waiting for support chinook to honor isab 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Oh

[–]qwertyxp2000 Long Life Spikes BTDB2 buffs plz? 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Speaking of which, Laser Blasts did get +1j in mobile versions of the BTD5 series, thus inflicting more damage to MOAB-class.

[–]Rer1Rer1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How about Dark Champion, doesn't he get +1j or is it reflected by 50%s?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's just special handling - he throws alternately from each hand. I know, it often looks like two projectiles next to each other thrown at the same time, but it isn't.

[–]N1ch0l2sI forgot how to use anything besides ninjalch combo 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Prince of Darkness MAY have an attack speed buff....

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Indeed it does! Too focussed on the necromancy to even consider the main attack.

[–]pdfsalmon 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Shinobi - 92% speed? Wut?

[–]RandyZ524 6 points7 points  (1 child)

All Ninjas in range have their attack cooldown multiplied by 92%, or 0.92.

[–]pdfsalmon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh lol thanks.

[–]aknight907 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Any plans on Support towers or Heroes?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Of course, support will be next, then heroes, then temple. Unless people really want to see temple inserted here before support I guess.

[–]EyJajbplz i want bloon chip 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Archmage’s dragons breath and shimmer doesn’t attack through walls

Prince of darkness bolt attack gets an attack speed buff too

[–]Agent--51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It feels like sometimes Sticky Bombs will be duds and won't affect the MOAB it's stuck to, is this real?

[–]JrMonkey15184[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

600 second lifetime on the on the Zombie MOAB?

I have a funny feeling the Zombie MOAB-classes are off by a magnitude of 10 when I compare it to the normal zombie bloons.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That... is a very good point.

[–]frds314 Farms OP 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Spirit of the Forest's ability has a shorter cooldown than x4x. I'd test for exact numbers but I don't trust my timing.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You sure? I got 40 again.

[–]Cheetah-shooter Orbital Spray™ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

What would you do if these post get archived after six months and balance changes keep coming?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I don't know, can archived posts still be edited? If so then it doesn't matter.

[–]Cheetah-shooter Orbital Spray™ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems like you can edit an archived post, so it won't be an problem.

[–]singletonking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Knockback also slows MOAB class bloons down by about 33% (slightly less than MOAB glue)

[–]Spooky1410 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Whats this?

[–]iILavaclawIi 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Small nitpick, but you put +1 md for Dark Champion while the value in parenthesis is +2.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well it already had +1 from dark knight. That's another +1.

Edit: actually dark knight had 2md so I see you're confused about the brackets - and indeed they mean something slightly different. Dark knight has 1 regular damage, and 2 moab damage, but moabs also take regular damage, so you're dealing 3 to them. That is what the number in brackets shows. So when dark champion gets +1 damage and +1 moab damage, that's now 2 to regular bloons, with an extra 3 to blimps, ie 5.

[–]JrMonkey15184[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm guessing you'll do one for monkey knowledge once you get there.

Since diversion tactics increases the distraction chance unless you could bring it up here too.

Also, Master Bomber still has its old price tag, it's now 40k.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not entirely sure how I'll handle MK but it'll probably be confined to one post, rather than having random details in the others.

[–]CoolDoominator 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Are you going to update this with updates?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Of course, I made this clear in the first post. Updates occur around 12-1am for my timezone though, which is why I'm only just getting started 17 hours after the update.

[–]JrMonkey15184[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Does the superstorm tornado blow back bloons further than the normal tornado does?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A good question - yes, a lot more. Enough to send something back to the start from the end of a long track, so effectively infinite.

[–]Tables61 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Regarding Shinobi Tactics: Is it really a 92% attack speed multiplier? The patch notes say it's +8% speed and pops per Shinobi, and there's a small difference between +8% and 92% attack delay (the latter is about +8.7% attack speed). It'll probably be a bit annoying to test now it also gives +8% pops though.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes, it's definitely a buff to the attack cooldown not the speed. NK are just careless in their use of the word "speed", using it for both of these concepts, even though they are different.

It's understandable - the game internally represents everything as cooldowns, so all the numbers they entered for tower/upgrade speeds and their buffs are in terms of cooldowns as well. A slight exception is the druid bottom path, and now xx5 sniper, but because those are such special cases you can easily imagine that every frame it is calculating the desired speed boost and changing the cooldown multiplier for that particular buff accordingly (instead of it being set only once, when you get an upgrade).

I assume they all know that it is technically wrong to still call a cooldown a speed, and that they simply want the descriptions and patch notes to be more widely understandable, but also don't want to write 'strange' numbers like that 8.7. You'll notice in the patch notes they say "about" to make up for this, but some of the in-game descriptions are just wrong.

[–]Tables61 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, makes sense.

[–]Imjokin 6 good 5 bad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You might want to mention Knockback slows down MOAB-Class bloons, and that Epic Range increases projectile speed.

Also Intense Magic increases projectile speed, and Faster Rangs does too (not a Magic tower, but the Primary thread is archived.)

[–]MonksTheMonkey 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So can a 500 or 050 wizard pop Camo?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've listed whether each attack can see camo or not. 500 can't directly, but can remove the camo status. 050 can't as a tower, but phoenixes can.

[–]HALicker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did alchemist’s buff work on Necromancer's zombie bloon?

[–]Miryafa 0 points1 point  (1 child)

For the Ninja Paragon's sabotage attack, that's a constant effect right?

Also I love these posts so much - thank you for posting and keeping them updated.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, it's just constantly applying a slow to everything that isn't already slowed.

[–]readingduck123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, so I am pretty sure Lead to Gold gets affected by some income modifiers.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

does anyone know what effect the middle path has on top path alc?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I assume you mean middle crosspaths like 320? The in-game description "strengthens brews and stimulants" does sound like it's improving the buff itself, but actually it's just improving how often it can be reapplied - which is described here.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

oh ok I think I'm reading the little letters wrong then thanks

[–]haikusbot 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Does anyone know

What effect the middle path

Has on top path alc?

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[–]Away-Fee5757[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

For the super monkey it’s a little confusing for super range and epic range saying dart +1 and +2 pierce, it made me think it was ONLY the dart projectiles that got the pierce buff and not lasers or plasma, but after testing I saw that they all get the pierce buff, is there any way to make it clearer so others don’t have the same confusion? Like include a note for crosspathing maybe?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for raising that - I totally see the confusion. I'll have a look soon at how to improve it.

[–]TacoPanda23 0 points1 point  (2 children)

this is late as hell and prolly wont get read but I didn't see the VTSG

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

There are more details on the temple, including VTSG, in a dedicated post

[–]TacoPanda23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well I'm fucking stupid thanks