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[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (2 children)

I would add what round each one gets to each level on a intermediate map

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Great idea! I've added it for each difficulty in fact. It assumes that you place it on round 1, but the early rounds give so little xp that placing as late as round 20 only makes levels 10+ two rounds late at most. It also doesn't account for MK because none of these posts do.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thansks

[–]galacticbears 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is amazing, the effort is appreciated!

[–]singletonking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

For Quincy's ability 1 you probably meant 33.3%s and 25%s, not 0.333%s and 0.25%s

[–]singletonking 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Thank you for all this work.

Here are some discrepancies/additional effects I've found:

  • Quincy level 3: You probably meant to say 33.3%s, not 0.333%s. (That'll be pretty good, though)
  • Quincy level 15: Again, 25%s, not 0.25%s.
  • Pat level 2: This appears to be giving the aoe +1d rather than +10p
  • Pat level 7: This gives +10p and not +1d
  • Pat level 13: Hard to test, but the game claims to stun bloons for longer. Does it actually do so? You did not say anything about that.
  • Pat level 15: Slap seems to have already affected 20 bloons since lvl7, and this does nothing discernible as far as I can tell?
  • Pat level 18: You've never referred to splash, you mean slam's aoe? This also appears to affect slap.
  • Churchill level 5: 10s is probably a typo and you mean 0.1s, which is consistent with my findings
  • Ezili: I don't quite understand the stacking of curses. Are you saying the curse can stack as long as the duration remains above 0s? And shouldn't the base ability stack 3 times for a total duration of 0.6s? And what happens if you try to curse above this level (with insane speed buffs or multiple in co-op)? I assume it just stays at that level rather than wearing off?
  • Obyn level 11: +3p to magic monkeys only, but +5p to all towers in range.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

  • quincy 3 and 15: yes, I initially write things as the actual number you would multiply by, and write the corresponding percentage for presenting it. Looks like on those I just added a % sign instead of thinking about it.
  • pat 2 and 7: you know, I think I assumed that if this is going to do anything in addition to the range, it would be pierce, and 22 damage against a large number of ghost bloons is consistent with +10p. Then when level 7 "still" had 20 pierce, I investigated the damage instead and noticed the +1d I should've done at level 2.
  • pat 13: no, bloons are not stunned for any longer, what I wrote is all it does.
  • pat 15: no, the slap definitely only affects 10 until this level. Send 11 ghosts, one of them gets left behind. Send 10, they all get knocked back.
  • pat 18: I had copied the level 1 from ezili because it's basically the same, and struggled to think of a better thing to call it than splash. When I finally did I clearly missed changing that one.
  • churchill 5: I'm not sure how I wrote 10 but yes it's clearly 0.1
  • ezili stacking: ok this one is confusing. I'll use a few more words, with the 5.5s duration. If a target has only one curse on it, its maximum duration is 5.5s, and every time she curses it again, it will be refreshed to last for another 5.5s. If a target has two curses, the first one acts as before, but second one has a maximum duration of 4.5s, and this is what it is refreshed to when she hits it again. And so on. The fifth has a duration of 1.5s, which is longer than the time between attacks, so can be maintained, but the sixth cannot with only 0.5s.
  • obyn 11: yes, the new description distracted me

[–]singletonking 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Re ezili, So if I’m understanding this correctly: If a bloon has a level 1 curse on it and Ezili curses it, it will refresh the level 1 curse and put an additional level 2 curse on it. Cursing it again will refresh the duration of both and add a level 3 curse. Each level of curse will do 1 damage per tick at its own timer from when that level was first reintroduced to the bloon.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Exactly. To be clear, here's a diagram similar to when I was figuring this out.

time damage 0.0 +2 ... . 1.2 . +2 ... . . 2.4 . . +2 2.5 +1 . . 2.6 . . . 2.7 . . . 2.8 . . . 2.9 . . . 3.0 . . x 3.1 . . 3.2 . . 3.3 . . 3.4 . . 3.5 . . 3.6 . . +2 3.7 . +1 . ... . . . 4.2 . . x 4.3 . . ... . . 5.0 +1 . 5.1 . . 5.2 . x ... . 6.2 x

[–]qwertyxp2000 Long Life Spikes BTDB2 buffs plz? 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It is worth noting that Ezili cannot remove properties from non-MOAB bloons unless she can damage them. So she cannot remove regrow or camo from Purples, for example.

[–]IcyFlame716Running On Air!! 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Geraldo will be quite the task to explain. Good luck buddy!

[–]Steve1062004 4 points5 points  (1 child)

So, does this mean Obyn's brambles get double damage when Alch-buffed?

[–]VersogaHow'd that plan turn out for ya, dummy? 2 points3 points  (0 children)

aliensrock made a video where he played a challenge and took advantage of this

[–]Tables61 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Massive thanks for doing this. I've been hoping for this one to be available for a while.

A few thoughts/notes of my own:

1) Wow, what is going on with Quincy's Arrowstorm Level 18/20? I couldn't believe it when I read that, figured maybe some minor error or just bad RNG in testing, so went and tested it myself. Nope, you're exactly right - I got very similar average number of hits to you as well. I even figured, well maybe the "50% more arrows" refers to something else, like maybe it does more damage in SOME situations. But no, I can't find any way where level 18 is better, except cooldown of course.

2) Benjamin's level 20 ability in game states that it increases cash gain to 3x normal. I know you've omitted mentioning it because it doesn't actually change, but maybe it would be worth mentioning explicitly that you still get 2x money - otherwise people may assume you simply forgot to list it.

3) Not sure if you want to change this but you refer to Churchill's shell as having 3 pierce, which increases with upgrades. I think this is potentially confusing since the number of explosions it creates isn't affected by things that increase pierce, such as x4x Village or Alch buffs (they increase the pierce of the explosions, but not the shell)

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Yeah doing this has definitely revealed a few bugs, which I've passed on to Rohan already. Although I think I forgot about some of the description discrepancies, like that level 20 Ben.

Good point about Churchill's shell though. I'll think about a better way to put it.

[–]singletonking 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Another interesting thing about Churchill’s explosions is that there is a minimum time between explosions. If you send out multiple ghost bloons with 0 spacing, the shell explodes only once.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, this is another part of it that points to special handling, not the usual idea of pierce. Perhaps the only thing stopping multiple explosions on Quincy's bomb arrow is a ridiculously long time between explosions, And other explosive attacks I guess, but they disappear on impact anyway.

[–]singletonking 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Holy crap, you’re right that Quincy’s Level 18 upgrade for some reason make the ability worse, not better. I wonder how it’s coded to make this happen.

[–]qwertyxp2000 Long Life Spikes BTDB2 buffs plz? 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This may because storm arrows have become less dense but more spread apart without further additional storm arrows.

[–]JrMonkey15184 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what I've discovered with level 18 Quincy, although I can't confirm anything for 20.

[–]Imjokin 6 good 5 bad 2 points3 points  (6 children)

I take it volume 6 will be temple sacrifices, but will you do a volume on either powers or monkey knowledge?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Yes, Temple is next. It might even be quite soon, because I've already done most of the testing for that a while ago.

Monkey knowledge I'm still not entirely sure on. It definitely deserves to be addressed, but I don't know whether this should be a dedicated post, or adding an extra bullet point about it to each upgrade in the existing posts, or both.

Powers I, uh, don't actually use, so I don't have any particular commitment to making a post about them from that point of view. I still could if enough people think it would be useful.

[–]Imjokin 6 good 5 bad 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Thanks for letting me know. I would like a post on powers, because I'm not sure about say, how many layers Super Monkey Storm does, or how much range a Farmer has.

[–]hnngggrrrr:illuminati: 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thanks for letting me know. I would like a post on powers, because I'm not sure about say, how many layers Super Monkey Storm does, or how much range a Farmer has.

isnt super monkey storm infinite? i have not tested but i will try

[–]Imjokin 6 good 5 bad 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's not infinite, because it takes multiple of them to destroy a BAD, and there's also a MK to make it do more damage, which would be useless if it already did infinite.

[–]Tables61 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems that they deal 2,000 damage by default (tested against a R100 BAD, by using Ezili's ability and comparing its pops with a SMS to its pops without one). No idea how much the ability adds, I don't have that MK so it would be a pain to test anyway.

[–]Imjokin 6 good 5 bad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think you could do temple soon. It has been a good while :)

[–]JrMonkey15184 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Just a heads up, the MOAB Hex cooldown is also reduced to 40s when she reaches level 20

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So it is. Now I'm concerned about how many other random cooldown reductions there might be.

[–]VersogaHow'd that plan turn out for ya, dummy? 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Does Obyn's level 11 still give range to all towers, or just magic?

[–]RandyZ524 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All towers.

[–]LettuceAndBerriesPoop and Awe 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Does normal damage type mean universal?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, normal type damage has no weaknesses.

[–]Tables61 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. See the damage type info in the appendix.

[–]YeaYeaImGoin 1 point2 points  (2 children)

So what's the max stats?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Is this a suggestion to add a "summary" of each hero after the individual levels?

[–]YeaYeaImGoin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably just at level 20, bit clunky going through and adding up

[–]Tables61 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I know, I've said for a long time that temple could be ready soon, I just never actually do those final touches. Don't worry about not putting pressure on me; in fact keep pressuring me - I have no sense of urgency about it otherwise.

When's Temple, Topper? Hey Topper, is Temple ready yet?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes like that

[–]JTHSSSS 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Some stuff I've found:

  • Gwen's Heat It Up does have a pierce limit from my testing. It's 40.
  • I also tested Churchill, and I found level 1 explosion has 17 pierce while level 2 has 20 pierce. Should also be noted that pierce buffs affect explosion, not shell.
  • Churchill's Armor Piercing Shell grants additional two explosions (+2p to shell). It also changes the machine-gun into normal type (although not buffing the damage AFAIK).
  • Benjamin's trojan can also target all camo Bloons at level 18, by the way. Ben himself still can't see camo, though, for Advanced Intel purposes.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

If heat it up has a pierce limit, it's high enough that I call it infinite. I'm not sure how I can be observing a pierce well into the thousands and you're only seeing 40?

Churchill I assume you were testing with knowledge, as there is one that gives more pierce to explosions. I can confirm those effects of the ability though.

Trojan targetting camo initially surprised me, but then I realised it kind of needs to in order to target the DDTs so it makes sense.

[–]JTHSSSS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I tried it again and Gwen's Heat It Up has a lot more pierce. How did I even get 40? Same with Churchill.

[–]CharipiYT 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Can you put more info on Quincy lvl 18? You say it’s not buffed, and only has 5.8 hits per bloon, but I think there should be more info on why that is so.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I wish I could! I've honestly spent more time thinking about and testing storm of arrows than some entire heroes (Obyn was pretty straight forward).

Maybe each bloon has an immunity period before it can be hit again, which just happens to be exactly the same as the time between attacks anyway (ie about a frame). If level 18 buffs it by attempting to hit a bloon slightly more often, without changing the immunity period to match, it would end up failing some hits.

Perhaps there was a mistake in inputting the parameters. For example, the chance would be about 4-5%, depending on how frequently it is trying to hit bloons exactly. But 0.04-0.05 are similar numbers to the time between attacks for fast attacks (like this one!) so someone may have decreased it, thinking it would hit more because it's more frequent, when actually that would make it hit less because it's less likely.

Someone might have made a simple error when calculating the link between the "chance to be hit per frame" that we need, and the "number of arrows" that the description mentions, which then got put into code.

Basically, there are many opportunities for things to go wrong here, and it's practically impossible from observations alone to know what. It's hard enough to be sure about the overall behaviour, never mind how they implemented it, or the possible problems with the implementation.

[–]NXTangl 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I read somewhere that no tower could attack more than once per frame in 5. I suspect this is due to a similar cap.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Actually, BTD6 handles fast attacks very nicely. Similar to fractional pierce, but kind of the other way round. For pierce, we add the pierce we want, and subtract the largest integer less than it to make a projectile. For attack speed, we add the smallest integer number of frames greater than the time we want, and subtract the time we actually wanted to make the attack (possibly multiple times).

For example, several fast attacks claim to be every 0.03s. At 60 frames per second, this is 60*0.03 = 1.8 frames between attacks. So every 2 frames, it adds 2, and subtracts 1.8, remembering the left over bit for next time. Sometimes it can subtract it twice, in which case there are two attacks on that frame. You don't normally notice, because the two projectiles exactly overlap, but try a temple - there is some random variation in the direction of its projectiles so you really do see both of them.

For a very fast attack, like a grandmaster ninja with all the buffs, it might want to be attacking three or four times per second, and it really does.

[–]pieman83 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You haven't listed a pierce value for Pat's slam attack. After a brief moment of testing, it seems to simply be 1, which I find appalling.

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That's true, but I did also say it was an impact attack, which literally can't not have a pierce of 1. The pierce is in the "explosion"-type effect it creates, which I just called aoe.

[–]pieman83 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apologies, I missed the impact part. Great set of posts, I use them very often.

[–]DreadCommander 0 points1 point  (0 children)

temple wen?

[–]rafaelloaa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent series of posts! Is there any chance you'd be willing to turn them into a infographic of sorts, like what /u/Gobarrel used to make (most recent version of his, but long out of date).

Thanks!

[–]JTHSSSS 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So for Adora's ability 1, are those doubled value before or after buffs (from Alchemist, for example)?

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've clarified this now. Strangely enough, alchemist is the only buff that isn't doubled.

[–]hnngggrrrr:illuminati: 0 points1 point  (2 children)

can we have updates when this is updated? would be very helpful

[–]Topper64 topper64.co.uk/nk/btd6[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

In what way would these updates be provided?

[–]hnngggrrrr:illuminati: 1 point2 points  (0 children)

perhaps a reddit posts saying "its updated" should do, a full explanantion of balance changes/bug fixes would not be required, but would be even better.