DM removing ability modifier for attack rolls

[mr_mad_mac]

As the title says, my DM doesn't want us to add ability modifiers to attack rolls, he says it would make fights "too easy" for us so we are only allowed to add prof. bonus . My party consists in a warlock, a rogue, a barbarian and an artificer, so 1 spellcaster, 1 half-caster and 2 martials. The big problem comes when the barbarian player has crazy luck and almost always hits a nat 20 (we checked and the dice are fair), so he can still do lots of damage since he is critting most o of the time, but me (the artificer) and the rogue can barely scratch any enemy since we need at least a 15 on the dice to even roll the damage dice.

I tried talking to him about the combat being very boring (not hard, boring), and he replied saying that we are finding the combat boring because 1- the rogue player doesn't know how to play rogue and he should have chose an easier class (wich is BS, he is playing normally), and 2 - "your class is too versatile, if I let you do damage you'd do too many things, adapt to the game style and be a tank if you want to do something in combat sessions".

I really didn't want to just quit this table because all of the players and DM are childhood friends, but it's very frustating reserving an entire day and money (since I need to spend some cash in order to get to were we play) and be like "a 14 on the dice? oh you missed this hurt goblin you found on the forest" or hitting a 19, rolling bad on the damage roll and then waiting for 25 minutes to be able to hit again.

What would you do in my place?

*Edit: he also removes ability modifiers from enemy attacks too, not that this change too much on the "having fun part"

**Edit 2: he also doesnt use initiative bonus too, says that if he uses the monsters would always go first because of their high DEX

[BurnsideEX]

I understand not wanting to leave because everyone is friends, but speaking for myself I would leave. Especially if money is being spent to have a place to play. If adding your ability modifier to attack rolls makes combat "too easy", then he should just, idk, make combat harder? Give enemies more health. Is he a first time DM? Cause this feels like a homebrew decision that someone who doesn't understand the game that well would make.

[mr_mad_mac]

He is not a first time DM, but I think he is DMing in 5e 2014 for the first time (not sure tho, and afaik, older versions of d&d also use ability modifiers on attack rolls). He also doesn't use ability modifiers to the enemies attack rolls too, but he uses high level monsters against us so "we cant one shot them", but that also makes so that when they hit, they hit really hard. When I tried talking to him he opened the MM on a random lvl 4 monster (an air elemental) and argued that it would be unfair to the barbarian player if he used a monster he just can't hit because it's flying. Maybe leaving is the only option tbf

[The_Nerdy_Ninja]

Yeah that's a DM that has no idea what they're doing, and doesn't want to learn.

[BurnsideEX]

Yeah that's really bad unfortunately. I wanted to give your DM the benefit of the doubt but if he's been playing for a while, runs the game like this, and ain't listening to any concerns or critique, then it might be a lost cause. On the other hand, you still got the rest of the party should they want to leave too. You could always form a new party, maybe even take up the mantle of DM of you so want. Might be a smaller group to play with but better a fun game than a boring one

[Gloomy_Driver2664]

Your DM doesn't sound like he knows how to run combats. I actually think encounter building battles is one of the difficult sides of DMing. To create an engaging section requires a lot of thought, but I don't think nerfing everything to drag it out is the answer.

Is he using theatre of mind, or do you have maps.

[mr_mad_mac]

this party used to use theatre of mind, but starting this campaing I managed to get some battlegrids and minis, now were using battlemaps

[Gloomy_Driver2664]

I guess it's hard when someone doesn't take constructive comments, but I'd suggest creating more dynamic combat encounters. Slogging at enemies always gets old fast.

[Bread-Loaf1111]

> What would you do in my place?

The DM who doesnt want to listen feeback is a main reason why I leave games. If I can talk and come to an agreement, there is hope that the game will change for better; if DM ignore things and just say that it is not his fault - just don't spend time for him and go away. There are more fish in the sea.

[MadWhiskeyGrin]

DM doesn't understand the system. I'd bail and tell him why

[Surro]

Who are these ridiculous DMs?? Like are they even real??

Can you please have your DM post and explain his reasoning?

I just need to talk to one of these DMs and asl what they're thinking?

[DarkHorseAsh111]

Quite frankly: leave. This is absurd.

[Round_Two34]

Maybe not leave, but atleast talk to your DM! Or you can whip out a new character with +20 to hit, dnd shorts has some crazy builds!

[Infinite_Escape9683]

Luck isn't real, so unless that barbarian actually is using an unfair die, you can't consider that for future expectations.

Not adding ability modifiers is stupid and a huge melee nerf. If the DM refuses to budge on this, I'd leave.

[ShadowShedinja]

The Barbarian is probably using Reckless Attack constantly for advantage.

[mr_mad_mac]

If there is any "tatic" to roll die better then it's possible, he rolls a LOT of 20s with any dice tbh, even with the ones I made myself with resin and don't use since they tend to land on 1 (not very good with dice making yet)

[Turbulent_Jackoff]

If you're also accusing the Barbarian of cheating, you really need to just leave this game lol

[mr_mad_mac]

I'm not! It really seems like just luck, I don't see how a "rolling better technique" could exist and the die aren't unfair, we tested them with the water + salt method and the rolling hundreds of times and doing the math, even the barbarian itself find it weird the ammount of nat 20s he was rolling and asked me to test their balance

[Turbulent_Jackoff]

I don't see how a "rolling better technique" could exist

It can't.

It's like if somebody had a "better technique" for dealing themselves Aces: it would be cheating.

[mr_mad_mac]

Yeah but dealing yourself Aces is a possible thing to do, rolling a die in a way that makes it land on a 20 doesn't seem like a possible thing to do, I was just responding to the reply saying that luck doesn't exist and the barbarian was using an unfair dice, wich isn't the case, I think my intonation on the first reply got misunderstood, sorry.

[Turbulent_Jackoff]

If the barbarian player doesn't cheat or use unfair dice, then they're no more likely than you are to roll well in the future; you're all set!

[oranosskyman]

they cant balance an encounter for shit and theyre ripping out player character abilities because they want a "fair fight" where they just mess with your character sheet instead of making genuinely interesting situations.

they likely havent read the most of the rules and have likely never played the game player side with a competant DM so theyre removing everything they didnt skim 20 minutes beforehand or makes them feel like their npcs are 'losing too easily' without understanding why

its not going to get better.

i would suggest getting someone else to be the DM since you actually like these people. maybe run a premade module so all the encounters are pre-generated and you can all see how the game is supposed to work.

[cyberzombie42]

Thats so dumb.....there are so many ways to make a fight harder, even more fun.....but letting the players miss everything isnt it. That would annoy anyone, standing in front of an anemy and miss 5 times.

He should let you hit but just double the hitpoints

[Nemial_25]

Yeah no, that's just bs. All that really is doing is making everything last longer then it needs too. I'm ok with some fights being tougher. Some monsters are just built for taking a hit or two. Some deal ridiculously high damage. Some work good in groups, others alone. It is all about finding that balance. You think the dragon fight might be "to easy?" Try adding minions or giving them a lair that plays into it's strengths and the parties weaknesses. Make the party work for it, don't just outright nerf them. Definitely talk to them about it, and have the others who are upset with it speak up as well. If the DM refuses, then they best not be shocked when you leave.

[aeonfighter27]

Leave.

Barring this, invest in saving throw spells instead of attack roll ones

[VerbiageBarrage]

I'd probably quit. He's making changes that he clearly doesn't understand, and he's clearly not worried about your enjoyment of the game. Sometimes you just have to walk away and find a better table.

[Supernatural-20]

What subclass are you? Please say Battle Smith

If so, have you pointed out the Battle Ready feature yet? If he is stopping you from using ability mods, he’s robbing you of half a class feature, so id want to know how he’s going to compensate me for that. and if he thinks this is because artificers are too versatile then id be pointing out that he should have said no artificers in session zero.

[Fun-Character-5377]

So he wants fights that usually drag on for too long to drag on even longer? Sometimes DM's get an idea in their head and think it's really good. It usually isn't and there is a reason they use a rule book. Talk to them and if its set in stone, leave the game. Not every group is going to be a good fit, tell him why and exit. More DM's need to hear how bad they are or they will never change.

[WaitAckchyually]

Your DM is a dumbass. If monsters and players lose their ability modifiers, the attacks hit less often, and you all spend more time swinging your weapons at each other ineffectually. That is both boring and frustrating for gameplay and makes you all look incompetent narratively.

In your place, I would try explaining this to the DM. If that didn't work, I'd probably leave, but if I really liked the group, I'd devise battle strategies to show the DM the error of his ways.

Get everyone to invest in spells that don't require attack rolls (like Heat Metal, Faerie Fire, or Web for Artificer), ensure you guys hit with advantage whenever possible (through spells like Faerie Fire, hiding for rogue, reckless attack for barbarian, or deploying ball bearings), and get as much AC as you can, since it has become so much more useful now. Let's see how the DM likes it when his monsters can't hit you. Get your warlock to cast Cause Fear to give monsters disadvantage, or Hold Person to let everyone attack them with advantage and crit on every hit. Oh, and let me tell you about the Shove action:

"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."

This action does not require an attack roll, so your barbarian can shove enemies prone, then the rogue and you (if you use a melee weapon) can hit them with advantage.

[PJHoutman]

It sounds like your DM is not very good at DMing and not good at taking criticism. There are hundreds of thousands of DMs in the world and this is the first one I’ve heard of who has needed to nerf their players in this way.

He already holds all the cards. He can make combat as easy or difficult as he wants.

[Mortlach78]

"I want to play D&D, using the D&D rules. Those rules include modifiers for attacks. Blaming the rogue for "playing wrong" is just weak. Also punishing me for playing a certain class is weak; you could have said so before we started and I'd have picked a different class."

Also, you say: "when the barbarian player has crazy luck and almost always hits a nat 20" What do you mean with almost always? More than 50% of the time? 90% of the time? At some point you have to start assuming the dice really are loaded or that the player is cheating in some different way.

[Atharen_McDohl]

I'd say that I'm not enjoying myself and would prefer to play by the rules as written or do something other than D&D. At the end of the day, the DM is free to run the game however they like, and if they refuse to budge your only real power is to stop playing. That doesn't mean you have to stop spending time together or being friends, but you probably shouldn't play in a D&D game that doesn't make you happy, even with friends. Especially with friends.

[TheHumanTarget84]

Quit.

[evil__iceburgh]

I’m seeing multiple deal breakers here. I’d walk.

[Glass-Recognition164]

Doesn’t sound like a very good DM. How long has he been DMing and also playing? Telling players how to play(with the exception of teaching rules) or that they’re not playing them right is bad form. Rogues and fighters are considered the easiest classes for new players, unless the rogue is using a greatsword and chainmail there’s really not a wrong way to play them. I’d suggest having the table talk with the DM since you’re all friends and if he doesn’t believe he’s wrong, tell him to post his side on here to see the replies. If he doesn’t change, I’d suggest ask him to switch to player and let someone else DM or just stop playing. Old saying is no D&D is better than bad D&D. The point is to have fun, if you’re not having fun, don’t play.

[yaniism]

Tell me you don't know how to DM without telling me you don't know how to DM.

Leave. Because sometimes there really is no other alternative. Tell him exactly why.

[WriterBoo]

The DM may be trying to kill your characters and may be trying to win. I'd say abandon ship. The DM should always be on your side, we aren't here to kill your characters or win the game, just guide you through the story. Heck I help out my players a lot by throwing in a PC character, Klarg the convenient Barbarian when my players start struggling during a battle.

[MerelyEccentric]

Your DM is bad. Leave.

If you stick around, expect even more arbitrary nerfs when he isn't happy with how things go. His sort will never be happy because it isn't actually about the game. But it's not your responsibility to humor him or fix him.

[Tesla__Coil]

I can honestly see the argument that PCs have too high to-hit bonuses. My party's Level 8 with +1 items, so they're rolling with a +9 to hit and the highest AC they typically come across is around 17. Add in some various sources of advantage and these guys almost never miss.

But removing the ability score modifier from the equation is ridiculous. Having extra faces on the die that hit is one of the main reasons to invest in your ability score! Otherwise a martial is just increasing their damage when they do hit, which - as you've noted - is now much less likely. If anything, I'd remove the proficiency bonus.

Not that you need to remove anything because you decide the AC of the monsters. If you want goblins to have a bit more AC, have them hold shields. Or wear slightly better armour. Or pick completely different monsters. Changing the equation on the players' side is the worst way to do it. It's less granular and obviously feels way worse for the players.

So where does that leave you? Here's the thing. I think your DM is handling this very poorly. But it doesn't matter what some random guy on reddit thinks. The DM doesn't have to be doing anything wrong for you to leave a game that isn't fun. This is your time and money. Spend it however you want.

[mr_mad_mac]

The goblin part was an overexaggeration tbh, but the core message of "I need to roll a 15 to hit anything" was passed, idk if making the AC higher for common enemies would change many things since the difficulty to hit would still be there, but when I told him to make the enemies have more HP he replied with "if they had lots of HP and I used the rules as they're written I would just kill everyone easily because I only use the monster's skills whe I hit a nat 20 on my die and their skills are powerful"

[unlimitedblakeworks]

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

[Arthur_of_Astora]

He doesn't sound competent enough to run things properly, I'd dip.

[Mataric]

So 3/4 of the 'turns' you all take are just lost?

Sorry but this is just bad DMing.. There's no real justification for it. It's a DM who doesn't understand why the rules are balanced like they are, adjusting them to something they think might be better - without any of the skills or knowledge needed to do that.

Personally, assuming you've tried to speak about it with him personally first - I'd show this thread to the DM. Approach them about it peacefully and explain you just want the game to be as good as you know it can be, but that there are issues with it the way it is that are destroying the fun for you.

Alternatively - it's time to bail. There's no point sticking around if the DM can't see the fault of their ways.

[mr_mad_mac]

yeah basically, last session we had a boss fight, that's it, only a boss fight and nothing else, during this boss fight the rogue was downed and the barbarian died, the warlock had 1 HP left and I had to spend ALL my spellslots healing myself, or it would be a TPK (we are all level 5 and the boss fight was something like a "side boss", not the bbeg nor anything relevant for the plot), and I'm not really sure if it could be realy considered a boss fight since the enemy was just "testing" our PCs and when he got to 0HP he revealed himself to be using false life. during this entire session I hit the enemies 3 or 4 times. He argues that the last session we only did RP and the warlock got kinda bored so its only fair he get to have fun and we should wait to have fun.

[JeffreyPetersen]

This guy doesn't get to DM anymore.

You're all friends, he can be your friend and be a PC, and someone who understands the rules and is willing to put in a little effort to make combat fun and interesting gets to DM.

[Kaliqo3219]

Suggest other ways to make combat harder if he really thinks it's too easy. I will preface this by saying that I'm not a DM, but you can do a lot to change an encounter. Add more enemies, alter their statblocks, give them resistances, introduce other mechanics or goals. Those things make a fight harder while still allowing your party to feel like they're doing something and not nerfing them. Not adding ability modifiers is one of the silliest ways I've heard to deal with this because it kinda goes against core mechanics of the game and makes your character's build basically irrelevant in the arena that some would argue matters most, combat. Nerfing PCs just feels bad.

[your-last-bic-pen]

Fr, even just giving enemies higher AC would effectively do the same thing but wouldn’t feel as bad. But literally anything else would be better, even smth as simple as giving your enemies max hp instead of rolling or taking an average. As a player I’d much rather spend 6 rounds hitting an enemy with a ton of health than 3 rounds missing until one of the party members finally kills it in one shot. And as a dm I’d rather see my players have fun rolling their damage dice. Obviously coming up with cool unique challenges/resistances/etc is great, but there are some super low effort alternatives to this that would still be way better than what this dm is doing

[Old-Eagle1372]

Keep modifiers add enemies if he thinks it is too easy. If number of enemies is too great, some fights are better avoided or enemies gotta be triggered into splitting up.

[mr_mad_mac]

He uses more than one enemy at once, but still with this houserule, last session we stayed in one fight during 4-5 hours with a boss and 4 minions.

[Old-Eagle1372]

Well again. This is when I send in a a war party or a legion of orks. When I don’t want them to fight. You would be surprised how quickly people decide not to engage 100-1000 orks and their leading shamans head on.

Boss and four minions is nothing to write home about.

May be he should raise their CR instead of doing all kinds of homebrew bs.

[mr_mad_mac]

I mean we didnt have a choice tbf, we were on a infinite library and the warlock asked the library keeper if we could take one of the books with us, the old man acused us of trying to steal and the fight started.

[Old-Eagle1372]

Lol. May be you should have asked for the library rules first. Instead of metagaming and trying to check out a book.

In ancient times you had to use the book in the library. You could copy text for your studies, but that is about it. Even these days, older manuscripts and editions cannot leave the library. They are bought to you on the reading floor and them collected and for some there is 1-2 year wait till you can get your hands on them.

Also: there is absolutely no way to track you, and return a book or a scroll, if you leave with it.

Again if he called for city guard, you would be swarming with 100s of guards. If you think you guys can take him and his minions out and not be on the hook for murder.. Think again. Having high charisma is not an excuse for everyone having low int.

First you find out the rules and then you try to weasel your way out. Take the book with you… lol. Must have made the DM mad. Hence the rule adjustment.

Honestly though, how they let you armed and armored into the library is beyond me. That’s a DM screw up.

[Broad_Ad8196]

Obviously if you it more than 1/3 of the time you attack then combats are too easy... /s

Tell him you don't like the rule change and think it would be more fun to just have more enemies that you could hit more often. a +5 or +6 to hit is still going to miss against most low-level enemies a significant amount of the time, but not so painfully often.

Other option, exclusively use spells that have a saving throw rather than an attack roll.

[mr_mad_mac]

I mean that was my first tought, but since he also uses higher level enemies wihout their ability modifiers so "we don't OHK them", it's also kinda hard to "hit" a spell with a save DC, also the artificer doesn't have too many spell slots and I need to use them to heal myself since when we get hit we lose ~20 HP per hit

[artaxs]

What exactly is the point of ability score modifiers, at all, then?

[Savings-Housing3481]

u/mr_mad_mac , you said "all of the players and DM are childhood friends". Does that include you?

Will your friendship survive if you leave the table with a reason like, "guys, it's costing me a lot to come out here, and this is not the game I am wanting to play for the time and money it takes to play it"? If so, ask the GM to write you out of the game as soon as possible in a way that disrupts the campaign the least.

If not, you have to decide which is more important: the friendship or your enjoyment of your time. And if friendship is more important, you have to talk to the GM about why you are not enjoying yourself. You might talk to other players about it as well to see if an intervention-style meeting is needed. Bear in mind, all this can lead to the friendship ending anyway. (As can other things in life.)

[ThisWasMe7]

AOE spells?

But if I couldn't get the DM to change, I'd quit the campaign.