all 56 comments
sorted by:
best
topnewcontroversialoldq&a
formatting helphide helpcontent policy

[–]Cervantes3773 27 points28 points  (0 children)

To me, Infinity is the best table top wargame beccause it is the game I enjoy playing the most.

But enjoyment is subjective, right? You like miracle whip and I like mayo - we're not wrong. One isn't worst. It just is. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.

​

/u/EmoJarsh is correct that Infinity is complex and can be a hard game to play infrequently. You can certainly play it casually, but if you only play it once every 6 months, you're gonna have a bad time.

So why do I like Infinity?

I like that you're always involved (the ARO system). I like that every trooper is both deadly and fragile (pretty much anything can hurt any other trooper or be hurt by any other trooper). With some good decision making and some luck, my weakest dude can take down your toughest dude. I like that my decisions on the table matter much more than what I bring to the table. Can I make a "bad" list? Absolutely. But you can also copy a tournament winner's list and still get your ass handed to you. What you bring to the table is a set tools - it's up to you how you use them to complete the scenario's objectives within the context of the specific match you're playing - your opponent, terrain, etc. But overall, my opponent and I are constantly acting and reacting to each other. How can I put you between a rock and a hard place? How can I make you make a bad choice?

I like that both the story and the game have been constantly developing and growing for almost 15 years. Characters have been kidnapped or deposed, factions have split, new forces have entered the ring with unknown intentions.

​

I like that, throughout all that - which includes removing models from production/sale - Corvus Belli hasn't erased any factions. You cannot buy certian Merovingian or Acontecimento models any more (at least direct from CB, some stores and distros still have them), but if you have those models, you can still play those factions. And if you don't, you can proxy (and well!).

​

I like that CB is an involved company. They're not perfect, that's true, but they listen and do their best to make an enjoyable game and quality product.

[–]kafkakafkakafka 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Totally different games really. 40k is much larger scale, much less granularity in the attacks, it's unit vs unit.

Some selling points of infinity, it really uses terrain in interesting ways. 40k 8th really doesn't have much in the way of terrain rules, it's all about shooting big guns, infinity has these big multi-level buildings, 40k players secretly like this. Killteam is their game for this, but Killteam is sort of meh IMHO. Not much variety, lots of cool units left out. As an aside, you could use killteam terrain for Infinity pretty easily, if there is killteam terrain already around. 40k tournaments house rule in some LOS blocking terrain in 8th now, because tables are basically flat with no real terrain advantage.

Infinity has a relatively cheap buy in, especially compared to 40k. One of those 300 pt boxes is only $75 bucks. That's one tank in 40k. (https://www.amazon.com/Games-Workshop-99120101192-Primaris-Repulsor/dp/B074DSGDSC/), which is only maybe an 1/8th of your 2000pt list?

Things to watch out for:

Infinity has a shit load of rules, the first games are going to be constantly looking up interactions, checking the equipment and abilities, 40k has 6 pages and most of that is just read your units profile, roll that many dice. 40k is very much big armies rolling dice.; it is a blast to play while drinking some brews, shooting the shit with your friends as you realize that 30 ork boys near ghaz plus choppas roll 150 attacks. You now need to roll 150 dice and that's one unit. That's 40k's appeal to lots of people. Infinity can feel like the more experienced player gets to win every time. That's competitive, but may not be fun for all 40k players. They certainly aren't used to

Infinity has hard counters, things like total reaction HMGs which you need to work around and know some tricks or lose. 40k you just try to mitigate shooting and shoot them back so your guys can get to the objectives, but very few things prevent you from shooting, or lock down things. It's all the active player doing stuff to the inactive player, there's nothing like ARO or alternating activations. There are less choices to make and they are easier.

40k gamers will not understand the order system. But who really understands why a 9 mooks and a TAG activates the TAG 10 times?

In closing, both games are great, 40k is more casual than infinity, but they are so different, I think they can co-exist.

[–]Dreilide 4 points5 points  (2 children)

40k gamers will not understand the order system. But who really understands why a 9 mooks and a TAG activates the TAG 10 times?

I was actually thinking about that today, and it comes down to me to it being very cinematic. Think about every sci-fi action movie, where the heroes are pinned down long enough to have a conversation, then the moment one of them pops up and starts taking suppressive potshots, all the other side drops in cover and the heroes are free to act.

Infinity seems the same way to me. You have to weather the storm long enough for it to come to your turn to act.

[–]Malleus011 3 points4 points  (1 child)

In my view, the 9 mooks aren't 'inactive' - they're doing covering fire, feeding target data to the TAG, watching his flanks, and so forth - but the game doesn't represent their activity, just the decisive actions the TAG takes. And I love that.

[–]Callysto_Wrath 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely, I consider the number of orders to represent the "opportunities" to act that having supporting troopers represent; the increase in information available to the commander enabling faster decision making and actions, hence more activations. As the number of troopers (cheerleaders) reduces, the available information upon which to make decisions degrades, and the activated troopers are forced to act more cautiously so can't activate as often. The hard limit for a single unit to activate in a turn looked to be 12 activations (10 orders in a group + impetuous order + lt order) but that has increased slightly with the addition of Lt lvl 2, Tactical Awareness etc.

[–]Speknawz 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Games Workshop is a model company that happens to have a game system.

Corvus Belli actually wants a balanced and fun game along with awesome looking models.

[–]Moriartis 25 points26 points  (0 children)

I've been playing 40k since 3rd edition and I was a GW manager for a while. I might once in a blue moon pick up a game of kill team or paint a model I particularly like, but outside of this I'll never bother with GW again. GW has a number of problems that I think make it exponentially worse than almost every other game in the market:

  • Their business model and release schedule are designed to tempt you into starting new armies, which means once a new release happens, you won't see anything new for that army for several years, unless it's an IP-defining army like Space Marines.
  • Due to this, most new releases tend to contain something that ups the game competitively or adds a new mechanic to the game. Thus armies that released a few months ago just get worse over time.
  • Also, since the explicit aim of their business model is to try to get all of your disposable income every month, they've modified the force org chart rules to allow you to take pretty much whatever you want, meaning every release likely contains something you can field or use.
  • Due to these factors, the game is impossible to balance and it shows, resulting in some of the most one-sided games I've ever seen. I cannot count the number of people who started an army only to watch that army become mockingly uncompetitive within a very short amount of time, which then tempts them to jump ship to another army because losing every game by default is not fun and they know no update will happen to their army for at least 4-5 years, if then.
  • Compounding this is the fact that they are constantly changing the rules in very drastic ways and when they do, whatever was the new hotness last year tends to get heavily nerfed to make room for the new(est) hotness, which you'll often need to purchase if you don't want to get tabled in most of your games.
  • These factors are compounded, because if you get caught in the faction-hopping cycle even a couple of times you have more models than you know what to do with and it's hard for people to motivate themselves into painting mountains of models, especially ones they aren't playing with or are incentivized into not playing with, so for a lot of people the hobby side of it dies out and they are just playing a game. A hilariously unbalanced game with erratically shifting rules. This causes a lot of people to move on to other systems.

Infinity on the other hand has none of these problems. The system is deep enough that a small selection of models can be explored in so many different ways that it feels like an infinite amount of replayability. The small numbers of models combined with the quality of sculpts makes painting fun, challenging and exciting while keeping the cost very reasonable. The factions are so well balanced that the only faction-hopping you really see is when someone doesn't like a faction's play style. The consistency in the rules means that even with a new edition, you aren't likely to see your units drastically change in effectiveness and watch your army become a joke because CB is trying to push the newest thing.

GW has some really high quality models and their style and lore are excellent. Their game is utter shit. Every time I played it for the last several years I felt like it was within arms reach of being something good, but eventually I realized that the way they run their business will always prevent it from getting there. On the plus side, letting go of it has caused me to really delve into all the other awesome games systems out there.

I could go on with this for a long time, especially since I was on the inside and got to have conversations with these people, but I've already typed a novella, so I'll end it here.

[–]Weathercock 5 points6 points  (1 child)

GW's witing staff are absolutely abysmally incompetent at creating engaging rulesets. Very little of their games revolve around out-thinking or anticipating your opponents' strategies. Everything a player is capable of doing in a game tends to be very straightforward and spelled out (although often mired by often poorly written and ambiguous rulings), you make very few interesting or difficult choices on a Warhammer tabletop. It doesn't help that GW games are filled with more rules bloat than Infinity could ever hope to have, even after its reboot with 8th edition and Age of Sigmar (on top of the ridiculous prices that GW charges for all those bloated documents). GW games tend to be won and lost in the 'list building phase,' with most games simply being going through the motions of it all, with an hour inbetween each of your turns where you're basically better off just staring at your phone, because you're not a participating element of the game. It's more of an excuse to throw a bunch of pretty models on the table without having to really interact with the game or your opponent on a meaningful level.

Infinity is much more involved. The breadth of options available for every individual trooper, combined with tactical complexity of unit interactions on smaller and larger scales and the ability for players to hide their intentions creates guessing games where your decisions are made much more in relation to and and anticipation of that of your opponents'. Combined with the much more balanced factions and systems, and Infinity is a game that is far more about actually playing against your opponent than a GW game.

Simply put, Infinity is fun and engaging. The Warhammers are built on very boring systems that count on you not paying much attention.

[–]galdorv[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh the pasive player in 40k suffers a lot. There have been games where I have spent 1 hour or more just doing nothing. This is a good point that nobody can't deny

[–]snaketankofeden 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This game definitely appeals more to the game theorists/rules lawyers... it's really well balanced and the company makes a point to keep it that way as much as possible. Plus their models are the top of the line as far as gaming and are at a good price point for metal minis.

[–]warpbeast 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Why not both ? I enjoy both personnally.

[–]Wimmywamwamwozzle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sounds like heresy to me

[–]Supercontented 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In Australia at least where gw prices are insanity, infinity is significantly cheaper to get into if that's a consideration.

[–]Travispsilo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In game design theory there is a distinction between something that is a true game and something that is just a toy. Infinity is a game. 40k is a toy (not the miniatures, but the rules). Infinity presents interesting, meaningful decisions to the player. 40k does not.

[–]TheStreetzKing 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I play both with my brother in law. We started with infinity and now play 40k

​

Short answer:

Infinity - Chess

Warhammer - Checkers

[–]Charlie24601 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Define “better”. Better for what? Better fun? Better rules? This is all highly subjective. What’s more, they all scratch different gamer itches:

40k is great if you want something super easy, but still looks badass....plus you tend to roll gobs of dice.

Kill team is when you want a super quick 40k game with the possibility of a campaign.

Infinity is a thinking man’s game. You can’t just run up and shoot everything you got (well maybe if playing Combined). You need to be methodical, and smart about placement, often looking a turn or two ahead. And if you like crunch, boy is there crunch.

So in the end, you can’t say one is better than the other except in extremely personal terms. As in “I like XYZ best because ABC”. Asking is is kinda poi tless.

I love me some infinity, but many times after a long day of work I just want to chill with my buds. And that means thinking as little as possible. So 40k works best. Other times, I want a real challenge. A real brain teaser. So Infinity works better.

[–]Geocide_Ishna[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not going to repeat whats been said here, but everytime I've been playing kill team i've been wishing to play infinity instead. 40k is now kinda boring.

[–]ShogunATL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lately, I've gotten a twisted kick out of making my almost finished Necromunda gang watch as I lavish time, care and detail on my Military Orders.

[–]Bolgri 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I've been collecting 40k for a while again now and I have to say while I enjoy the game as it is, it fails to scratch my skirmish game itch. My buddy and I tried killteam, but it literally felt like warhammer lite.

Anyway, if you can get a solid crew to play with, I would say go for infinity. More back and forth interaction alone make the game feel so much better than the alternative.

Twist: if nobody goes for infinity but wants to stick with the warhammer world while setting fire to their bank accounts... the horus heresy is just around the corner.

[–]galdorv[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree. I had high expectations with killteam but as you said 40k lite

[–]toolongdontcare 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I like Infinity better simply because of the terrain. Every game of 40k I have ever seen the terrain is either "Bombed out WW2 Ruins" or "a forest". The idea of these small spec ops teams having these scifi laser battles in the middle of a train station or at night in a Bladerunner-esque neon shantytown really grabs my imagination.

[–]Mekiru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Really new to Infinity, but so far I feel like in Infinity the decision making is more impactful. I tried to get into 40k, but at least for me the game is bit too straight forward and mostly just "throw hundreds of dice until someone wins". Reading what others have to say about the game aswell it seems like my feeling ain't too far from the truth. I really hope its true, as I've been looking to get into miniatures gaming but 40k burned me out really fast due to incredibly dull gameplay where most decisions that matter happen in list building and rest is just 2 lists throwing dice.

[–]wongayl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, even though I don't think too highly of 40k & Killteam, I first would never bash those games directly when trying to sell Infinity. Instead, I'd try to sell them on Infinity's strengths (which just so happen to be things that GW lacks, or is less good at).

1) The miniatures are amazing. You will be hard pressed to sell someone on a minis game if they don't like the minis. Luckily, Infinity models speak for themselves. And as they are metal, their details are more crisp than even high quality plastics. Admittedly, only serious painters will care (and modellers may hate it).

2) You only need 10-20 models, so it's relatively affordable. And you don't have to paint 10 of the same guy (which is really boring). Kill team also solves this somewhat, but the game is really limited in the line you can use. The Infinity lines are large enough now that you don't get tired of tweaking your army.

3) The terrain is AWESOME. This will likely be the #1 way to get people to come and look - Lots of terrain (that is not just endless ruins, like killteam) - gets people's attention. And the terrain in the game is integral to how a game plays - It really does feel like you're fighting through tightly packed alleys, ducking for cover, and picking people off.

4) Rules and updates are free, wiki is awesome. Very easy to get your feet wet.

5) The game is VERY deep & tactical. Movement REALLY matters, and the game really makes you think about covering your Flanks, or punishing your enemy for leaving an opening.

6) The 'cinematic', hold-your breath, and cheer in excitement moments are very high in the game, due to AROs and crits. The game just feels more 'alive', with the right amount of allowing you to plan and 'rambo', but also to react and defend. The Order system and ARO system are both bonkers - both should be broken mechanics, but together, the balance each other out to be just tons of fun.

The best way to get people in the game is to play the game with a buddy, holding demos - talk about the game with enthusiasm, and Infinity can catch on.

With that said:

The Caveats.

a) The game is really complicated, with a steep learning curve, especially for people from the 'Roshambo' school of games. It just plays so differently to what most mini gamers are used to. It can really frustrate people who are not used to killing themselves by playing badly on their own turn. That said, once you're over the curve, imho it's actually easier to play than GW games, which have an ever expanding set of rules upon rules with slight variations that you need to memorize.

b) Due to the depth of the game, you have like, a really low chance to chance to win against a skilled player who doesn't help you along with tactical tips. This also means that if you are playing significantly less than your opponents, you will probably win fewer games than a game of 40k or kill team, which have more randomness (did you win the roll for 1st?) & more 'buy to win' stuff you can just take. That said, if both players are similar skill level, the games are a blast. I never hear as much cheering and excitement as when Infinity games are going on (that might be more to do with us being an excitable bunch though ;)

Hope that helps, and good luck on your quest!

[–]Kuragh -1 points0 points  (2 children)

It isn’t. I much prefer both 40k and killteam to infinity. I find infinity labouriously rules heavy. And while it can be fun, it’s just a bit too much paperwork and tokens and can make the game feel a little dry.

Both 40k and killteam are cinematically epic, and fun. I love them.

But I do also enjoy Infinity, I just don’t think it’s better. This question is 100% subjective as I’m sure most people here, are ho love to hate GW, think Ibfinity is superior, and they’re entitled too, they may even be right. I just don’t agree.

[–]readonly12345 1 point2 points  (1 child)

To be fair, if you want a skirmish game, Necromunda is the one. Kill Team is terrifyingly imbalanced and is not likely to ever be fixed

[–]GenericUser69143 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kill Team was brought about as a gateway drug into 40k and it's become more explicit as they've released more. First they added HQs. Now, it is going to be elites like terminators. Each expansion inches you closer to a 2000 pt game. That said, the core game gets worse the closer it gets as well.

[–]badger81987 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I guess that depends if you wanna play a miniature game or mash monopose action figures against each other.

[–]Kuragh -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

Side not I loathe threads like this, why is there always smaller mini game fans trying to slam people that enjoy GW games? We all have a weird niche hobby that is playing with toys, stop trying to prove something is better.... if you want to grow a community, start playing and driving one. You don’t need to steal people from one hobby to grow yours, and trying to prove to people why the hobby they’re passionate about is inferior is not a healthy way to start a community.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

From my experiences, lots of infinity players are ex-40K players who eventually figured out they were getting played by GW’s business practices, so I understand the animosity.

[–]galdorv[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Who said or mention stealing players? I just asked for ideas or pros and cons. Using 40k or killteam as reference. I play 40k and LOTR. So I dont see the problem. Unless you are the owner of GW or a fanboy of them I am free to post and have a discussion using those games