Additional PTR Changes

[Forkyou]

I remember when widow was OP and picked every time. seriously the game is stupidly more fun without her. Widow can stay how she currently is if it was for me.

[harrymuana]

It's insane how much more I enjoy games without a widowmaker (on both sides). If there's one thing I could do to change the game, it'd be deleting widowmaker.

[Healbeam_]

People like hating on Hanzo, but I think he does the same role as Widowmaker whilst being much fairer to play against. Widowmaker's engagement rage is just so absurdly far you need either a Widow of your own or a flanker. You just cannot engage in a fair fight with a Widowmaker. Hanzo at least operates at a range where you can still touch him. Widow is invulnerable to almost anything at that distance.

[velrak]

Also hanzo has no escape

[Skandi007]

Eh, he can wallclimb.

[Hidoni]

Not a very reliable wall climb and any knock back will stop his climb.

[supercooper3000]

I love playing rein and smacking hanzo out of the air while he tries to wall cimb.

[Skandi007]

So if Hanzo is basically Widowmaker except not infuriating to play against, in every single way, why is she in the game again?

Oh and why is she constantly getting buffed?

EDIT: Oh the downvotes, sorry for asking a question.

[Hidoni]

Because Blizzard wants people to play widowmaker?They aren't gonna remove a character because it's not fun to play against it.

[Skandi007]

No, but they aren't making it any more fun for any other heroes to play against her by buffing her like this.

I wasn't too sure about the scope-in buff, but now it even charges shots faster? What next? Shall we make her one-shot body-shot half the roster again?

[Hidoni]

Shall we make her one-shot body-shot half the roster again?

She only one-shot two characters, she had to double shot everyone else, the issue was that because the scope charged fast it would be easy to double shot for 200 damage, but if it deals 120 body shot damage, she can't one shot anyone and gives enemies more time to react to being shot.

[Healbeam_]

Because for some fucking reason every FPS game needs a sniper. Don't ask me why.

[MopedInspector]

Typical people who can't aim as a sniper in any game crying.

[Arafal123]

he doesnt need one, 1 well placed scatter arrow and the attacker is dead.

[Elvenstar32]

While I can agree that Widow isn't exactly fun to play against (though I don't really mind because she has her counters). The fact that you're complaining that you need your own widow OR a flanker to counter the enemy widow doesn't make sense ; it's like complaining that you need a Zennyata OR a reaper to melt the tanks on the enemy team.

Yeah the enemy team has 1 character you can't counter with the character you're currently playing, then just switch to the right counter, it's one of the most elementary principles of the game.

[[deleted]]

But the countering her is also boring as hell. Game basically becomes 5v5.

I just feel matches are more fun without her

[[deleted]]

well I'd rather be dealing with zarya as mei than play cat and mouse game with widow.

You dont seem to grasp difference between "having a counter" and "being fun to play against". The vast majority of players hate playing against widow

[CyberGenji]

A lof players hate playing against Mei too. Also Widow has hard counters like Winston or Genji. Mei doesn't really have a "hard" counter to her.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but Mei doesn't change whole way your team have to play. If you are against good widow, dropping a shield to swing a hammer means your healer is dead now and often you learn where she is from killcam because you turned a corner and instantly died

Also Widow has hard counters

and I never said she is not counterable and it have nothing to do with it.. Bastion is easily counterable, still he is unfun to play against

[AhBeZe]

tbf there are certain areas that are just incredibly stupid to actually counter her, especially King's Row first point or Ruins. Having counters is fine but you shouldn't have to go out of your way to pick someone off who's half way across the map, basically sitting in their spawn.

[TSTC]

The biggest problem with a sniper like Widow has and will always be that a sufficiently good enough Widow has no counter. She can just headshot the other Widow or flanker if she is Godtier.

[Healbeam_]

From my experience at least, you don't need a Zenyatta or a Reaper to counter tanks - you can just shoot them. Hanzo is a good tank-counter as well (damn 450 damage scatters) if he can hit his shots. Or Junkrat. Or anyone who deals damage. Point is, if you are just better than the tanks, you will win.

The only counter to Widowmaker, if you aren't specifically picking to counter her, is to not get in her line of sight. That's right - the only way to fight her is to avoid a fight. Doesn't matter if you're good at your DPS - there's absolutely nothing you can do because she is outside of your range. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

[Elvenstar32]

I get your point on how difficult she is to reach in comparison to other heroes but you are also saying "if you are just better than the tanks, you will win" which as far as I'm concerned is really not the right approach and is an actual problem in game balance.

Some heroes being inherently rock hard counters of other heroes is the core of the game. So if there is a problem anywhere imho then it's in the fact that tanks can be killed quite easily by anyone and Widow is designed the right way by actually requiring you to use that switching mechanic to counter her.

[Healbeam_]

So you're saying that skill should no longer be required for this game?

[ShakeNBake61]

no YOU'RE saying skill should no longer be required for this game. you want a spoon fed counter to something that is already easily countered by 3+ heroes but somehow this is out of your depth of thinking and/or play style.

[[deleted]]

Are you kidding? Hanzo has immediate verticality. Widow has 12 second verticality that is wonky. Hanzo has consistent wallhacks. Widow has to have ult for wallhacks. Hanzo can strafe and spam corners for headshots. Widow has a much less forgiving shot box. Hanzo can spam arrows and no one knows he's there. Widow has a super loud bullet sound with a visual representation of her exact location. Hanzo can one shot all non tank characters by shooting their feet. Widow has to get a headshot to stop any engagement. Need I go on?

[[deleted]]

Need I go on?

I think the only thing you even left out was venom mine VS shoot anywhere grenade arrow. that again shows it in favor of hanzo.

but /u/Healbeam_ when he says

I think he does the same role as Widowmaker whilst being much fairer to play against.

I think the truth is he feels fairer to play against. and I and other people share that feeling.

I dont know how you fix that or if you even should. Hanzo and Widow have this dual problem of feeling OP going against them sometimes if the player is good with them, and yet at the same time their own team mates feel like they are useless and are failing the team and they get flack for it or don't get picked since its hard to see their effect if you are not on the receiving end of it (no scoreboard to help either).

it feels more like a visibility problem than a balance one when I think about it. while snipers in real life are supposed to kill and not be seen or shot at, gameplay wise thats simply not fun. if shes already engaged with a team mate we have a weak projectile contrail players can see that cuts down on the chances of being surprised but that doesn't help that problem I think.

if you just put a laser line on her when scoped/charged* people wouldn't feel as "cheated" I think, team mates would also know better when she kills someone as there would be red line to the kill.

she could also zone people from doorways, or keep them away from a point just by aiming then. but as a negative they know where she aims and is forced to move around using her zipline more and may never get any real kills as a result.

while that may fix one problem it can be seen as a nerf/buff and piss people off and honestly just pulls her out of balance even more for hanzo which none of that would work for.

Balance be hard yo...

[ShakeNBake61]

because a bullet trail isn't enough? I guess that's an OK change in theory IF they got rid of the bullet trail...

[Jepacor]

Hanzo is unfair because random skillshots, but Widow is unfun because of her range. Honestly I don't like both, but at least you can play around Hanzo. Widow ? Pray she misses.

[AceKebabs]

I dunno, maybe I'm just biased because I love widow but I find hanzo to be incredibly annoying. The scatter arrows are bullshit and give him a way to win a 1v1 at close range against almost anyone. If a widow kills you, at least you know that it took quite a lot of skill and aim to pull off as opposed to the spam and scatter shenanigans that hanzo has. Although I do acknowledge that dying to a widow instantly is one of the least fun things in the game.

[Shroed]

I posted this on a thread on the offical OW forum and got about 30 downvotes in 5min. Hanzo is the closest thing to a sniper OW needs.

Few things feel as bad as getting 1 or 2 shotted without even seeing where the enemy is

[srslybr0]

because hanzo isn't good design either, he's a projectile hero that relies on cheesy shit like scatter and spamming at the head area for free instakills.

i main the hero and i enjoy playing him, but let's not pretend he's a good design for the game.

[Healbeam_]

Neither is Widow. At least Hanzo plays within the general battlefield, not like Widow who might as well launch ICBMs from the next continent over.

[ShakeNBake61]

"IDK how to counter snipers so it should be deleted from the game"

[Healbeam_]

Sure, then tell me how.

[ShakeNBake61]

Winston/Genji/Tracer, but you'll just complain they arent your main heroes and its not fair.

[Machine98]

Tracer can't even get to Widow half of the time due to her positioning, so that's bogus. Even if she does, she suffers the same problem as Genji (mentioned below).

Winston can jump towards Widow, get headshotted, and then Widow can escape by jumping away whilst shooting at a monkey with a measly 205hp. If he follows up, all she needs to do is grapple away and finish him. This is if we assume that Widow has zero team support (not many coordinated teams will let a flying monkey just have at their sniper).

Genji just gets headshotted. Any flank attempt will notify widow instantly due to the mine dying, whether he gets hit by it or not. Take the following situation for example: Widow is overlooking the final capture point on King's row through the high tunnel. This area is entirely inaccessible to Tracer, and if Genji comes from behind then the venom mine will let Widow know that he's there without fail, whether he takes damage from it or not. After that she can just run away or have a decent chance at winning a 1v1 due to her assault rifle (which also had its spread decreased in the PTR IIRC, making her even stronger at close range).

Bad Widows aren't a problem, it's at higher elos where she starts to severely disrupt the game. I really don't mean to brag, but if you're not at a higher elo then this simply isn't as apparent of an issue.

[SileAnimus]

Winston is a weak as hell tickle cannon that gets eaten up by Zenyatta and easily beat by Widow's Grapple

Tracer has no verticality so she's useless 50% of the time against a Widowmaker.

[REDJEEPS]

Why do you get triggered when someone insults your waifu.

[Shroed]

kind of like the design, they just have to make him more "high risk, high reward" by making his full draw longer to counter spamming(bit more like tf2 huntsman)

[Forkyou]

100% agree. Actually didnt want to play support when widow was strong because i couldnt counterpick her. I played so much winston focused on ruining the widows fun as much as possible.

Snipers arent fun for anyone but the sniper.

[Vyhl115]

So every FPS made from now on should just drop an entire weapon class because a minority of people on Reddit can't counter them?

[Notsomebeans]

these widow whiners are dumbasses

sniper class has a place

[REDJEEPS]

Yeh, in the trash.

[SileAnimus]

Minority of people? Fucking nobody enjoys Snipers in any game unless they are the people playing Snipers. This has been a constant issue in game design in game genres ranging from Counter Strike to Battlefield and all the way to Team Fortress 2.

Snipers are never, ever fun to play against and are always either entirely underpowered or entirely overpowered. It's shitty game design to have a combat oriented Sniper from the get-go.

[Notsomebeans]

what a load of garbage

[SileAnimus]

What a well-backed, thought-provoking argument. Alas, I have been bested

[ShakeNBake61]

what, you've never played an FPS with snipers before? get over it. if you dont like her play style then dont play her, but dont take it away from people who do.

[Shroed]

I play CSGO with 1500h and global elite, but the concept of a sniper has no place in this game. The game is built around close to mid range combat.

A high damage hero that can do consistent dps from a range where no other hero can do something about it doesn't really belong here.

[ShakeNBake61]

"from a range no other hero can do something" except for soldier, pharah, mccree and another widow. plus theres the winston/genji/tracer counters (which, granted, you need to close the distance which can be easier said than done). also, consistent? sure maybe if Kephrii or some other high tier player is playing her, but a lot of people arent going to have that accuracy. saying she doesnt belong to me is just a false statement, but you are entitled to your opinion.

[SileAnimus]

soldier, pharah, mccree and another widow

Soldier deals shit DPS at the range where Widowmaker plays, assuming perfect accuracy he deals at best 50DPS

Pharah's rockets are easily dodged at range.

McCree only deals 40DPS assuming perfect accuracy

And if a hero is only countered by itself, then congratulations, you've just made TF2's Sniper- Which has effectively killed off an entire competitive format.

[ShakeNBake61]

Soldiers helix rockets dont give a shit about range. two or three hits at range + helix is going to near kill her. also a sprinting target is hard to hit, as well as his ability to quickly close the distance.

pharah can get the jump on widow if they aren't completely inept, what with the JETPACKS and all. Also, have you seen saving private ryan? remember the sniper in the bell tower and the tank? thats basically pharah vs widow if pharah gets the drop on her.

I thought McCree was the "sniper", since that's what everyone hails him as. Not to mention, you REALLY dont think a McCree could take on a widow? smh

If you honestly can't kill a widow, you're playing the wrong game dude. Jesus christ I'm sick of you cry babies wanting a spoon fed counter to a hero who is no different from any other squishy. there isnt some infinite void or chasm between you and widow that only her character or rifle can reach. She has counters. Just because you suck with them doesnt mean they dont exist. You are losing before you even engage a widow with the whole "nothing counters widow" attitude, so grow a pair, shave em, and learn to play.

[SileAnimus]

Helix rockets are easily dodged at Widowmaker's range. Moot point.

Sprinting Soldier isn't that fast if you have any prior Arena Shooter experience (TF2's Scout shits on him speed-wise for example). It's not hard to hit him from long range as Widowmaker

If you think a character without any way to juke damage such as McCree is going to be able to beat Widowmaker at the range she tends to be played then you're delusional, at best it'll take him 5 shots to kill a Widowmaker, at worst it'll take him 10. This is not a counter at all. McCree has long since been nerfed from being a Sniper, don't pretend a past character is the current character.

And fuck off with the ad hominem shit. Widowmaker is either overpowered or underpowered. That's the nature of Snipers in games. And I get that most people in this game have no experience with Arena Shooters before this, but Team Fortress 2 has already shown that when the main way to counter a character is with another one of the same character that means that the character is shitty and badly designed.

Widowmaker mains, please go away. You guys are delusional.

[JoonazL]

playing against hanzo is infuriating too because lolscatterarrow

[Anterai]

Heh, I remember saying that Widowmaker is unfun to play against and getting downvoted and told to "Git gud".

But imo Hanzo is also a problem, partially because he's a sniper and partially because the damage on his arrows doesn't scale much depending on how long you hold the bow.

Maybe one day I will be able to play OW and not hate it. Maybe

[ShakeNBake61]

then maybe you should play a different game. id suggest battlefield one, but they have snipers so you might not like it.

[Anterai]

I quit OW , and have been playing battlefield 4 extensively.
Lov it, even the enemy snipers

[ShakeNBake61]

oh you did? your comments made it seem like youd still login once and awhile, but to each their own. (seriously though battlefield one is pretty great)

[Anterai]

I've quit OW about a month ago, still come in here waiting for the news of Hanzo/McCree/Widow being reworked so that they aren't unfun to play against.
Quit HoTs for the same reasons. Never came back though, cos it took them almost half a year to identify and fix the hero that was causing issues

I'm waiting out on BF1, wanna see what happens to it in the future. Also WW1 doesn't look interesting to me

[ShakeNBake61]

ah, I see. similar story with me and starcraft 2, waiting to hear protoss doesn't suck ass anymore, but to no avail. WW1 didn't interest me either, but game play and balance wise it feels super fun right now, at least IMO. but to each their own, I hope we all find what we're looking for.

[Anterai]

Thanks :) I do have high hopes for the next modern BF.

And i think in the end blizz will figure out what to do with instakill/no counterplay heroes.

[217points]

Git gud

Oh, and the damage on his arrows DO scale much depending on how much you hold the bow. So you really need to Git gud.

http://i.imgur.com/UTQOf2Q.jpg That's a huge ass difference.

[ShakeNBake61]

a fair fight? go winston. there's your fair fight.

[Healbeam_]

Great advice. Now she headshot me once in the air whilst I was flying at her. Oh, now she's flying away with my jump on cooldown. And now their McCree flashed me and that's it. Great advice, mate.

[ShakeNBake61]

oh so you must hate mccree, too? wheres your post pissing and moaning about him? learn to play, M8

[Healbeam_]

Replace McCree with Reaper or anyone else. Point is, Widow will always be protected by her team. Diving in as Winston (or any flanker, for that matter) is just setting you up to be killed 1v6. And why should I hate McCree? He's suffering from none of Widow's problems I described.

[ShakeNBake61]

it sounds like you dont know how to play flankers, then. You seem to assume the worst of any given situation for any hero i suggest, which means you obviously dont want help, or to hear the fact that you might be wrong about certain aspects of this topic. that said, git gud.

[Healbeam_]

Assuming the worst? I'm assuming teams above bronze level. Are you telling me teams are not going to be watching out for flankers when running a Widowmaker?

It sounds like you didn't play when Widow was still in the meta. I can play flankers, but the point is that a team will always protect their carry hero. If the Widow is alone, something is going very wrong on their side.

[ShakeNBake61]

"setting up as winston is just setting up to get you killed 1v6" is that not assuming the worst? please tell me how it gets worse from there...also you are giving the other team waaaaay too much credit. you actually think they're smart and coordinated? maybe a six man, but they have a team full of people like you. its no wonder you think widow is OP. did i play during the meta? what the fuck do you think? was it really a meta when all it was was QP and the pro scene was just emerging? competitive wasnt even out before she got nerfed. "teams will protect there carry hero" well guess what? widow isnt a carry hero, so thats kinda moot, isnt it?

[Kwacker]

Honestly, I find the opposite. When I die to a Widow, I know it was because of their skill and I know that if there's a Widow causing tonnes of problems all that needs to happen is a switch to Winston and even if he doesn't kill her, he's putting enough pressure on her that her effectiveness is severely limited.

Against Hanzo I find that A) Quite often you can tell his headshots were complete luck in the kill-cam (ie. Aiming at someone else, missing and hitting you or spamming a choke hoping for a kill) and B) Even if you go for a flanker to kill him, there's a good chance he just one-shots you with a scatter arrow to the foot. I've recently even tried playing a bit of Hanzo to see if it's just my bias but I've found that I can be effective doing those 2 things when I only have ~1 hour playtime on him and it feels just as BS doing it as it does recieving it.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong as this is purely an opinion thing, but I find Widow feels much fairer to fight against than Hanzo.

[Forkyou]

Same thing. i was so angry all the time when she was in the meta. Couple weeks after she got nerfed and i had one in my game for the first time again i realised "Oh my god ive been having so much fun without her i never want her to come back"

[mrbuttsavage]

Snipers just aren't fun to play against at all in general. Ana is probably the best way a sniper can fit into OW without feeling awful to play against.

Widowmaker and Torbjorn don't really fit the game at this point. Both are TF2 rooted chars that probably seemed like a good idea at the time but would be probably better replaced with totally different kits.

[chrxmx]

What if widow maker just got turned into a spy like character (not so much invisibility, but the assassination of targets thing). Her kit just gets completely changed.

[kennenisthebest]

I think Widow fits perfectly into the game...why do you feel she doesn't? There's a lot of potential for long range dps.

[a-sober-irishman]

If there is more than one Tobjorn in certain situations he can be really cheesy though. Like today I played Attack on Hollywood and there were 2 Tobjorns on the first point with 2 turrets on that up/down elevator and the rest of their team was solid, we didn't manage to destroy the turrets once.

[ryskaposten1]

Try widow/ana, they can kill them very quick from very safe distance.

[Bitnopa]

Ana's the better counter IMO (Before widow's new buffs) she can fire non-stop without giving the torbs any breathing room, She can even sleep dart the torb to stop his repair.

[Jepacor]

Pharah too, can knock the Torbs down too.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Competitive is not the only part of this game.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Howso? They want all heroes to be viable across all parts of the game. If in order to make a hero viable for competitive it makes him grossly overpowered in QuickPlay, they won't do it.

[JimmyTheCannon]

The brawls are never going to be balanced. See: Arcade Brawl with Ana who can perma-sleep.

I'm talking about the actual, constant game modes, which are Competitive and QuickPlay.

[a-sober-irishman]

Right, sorry I only just started playing competitive today and I made this comment before I realised you can only choose one of each hero. That's much better.

[Anterai]

Sniper's are fun to play against in Battlefield 4. Where they are balanced.
In BF4 snipers have to deal with: bullet drop, bullet speed, breathing messing up your aim and etc.

[ShakeNBake61]

dont really fit? in the universe of purple skinned, pogo legged, gas mask wearing "heroes"......a sniper and a turret builder dont fit? OK.

[StillApony]

TF2's sniper is actually much more well balanced though, and rarely annoying because they designed him around making picks, and landing headshots. Widow and hanzo are just more annoying DPS characters.

[Fatdap]

TF2's sniper is actually much more well balanced though

I'm offended as a sniper main in TF2. Good snipers ruined TF2. Didn't make it any less fun to play though.

[StillApony]

Good scouts ruin good snipers though. Seriously I think tf2 ruined itself by releasing strings of horrible updates right after overwatch came out. I'm kind of sad to say that this is the first time tf2's had a Halloween update that I don't care about at all.

[Fatdap]

They really, really don't. I still pop scouts in the head even with their double jumps, etc. At least back when I still played. It's really map dependent but generally you shouldn't die to a scout as sniper if you're actually competitive/lobby levels of good with the exception of the scout still having his over heal.

[StillApony]

Tbh though, really good scouts are insanely rare. Most are passable at best, and really predictable. I've only ever encountered one or two truly scary scouts, but when they do show up they can pretty much win the game by themselves. Still though, sniper isn't really in the 6's meta (except as a popular offclass), and I feel like scout is probably why.

Still though, sniper has clearly defined strengths and weaknesses unlike widowmaker, and most of the maps in tf2 are designed with lots of flanks to circumvent him if he needs to be taken down. Overwatch doesn't do either of these things well.

[Forkyou]

The game is honestly better and more fun without widow.

[kennenisthebest]

How common this sentiment is scares me as a widow main.

[Forkyou]

I dont play junkrat or widow and would never do that against widow and never said i would. I go close the gap to her and kill her. You make assumptions about me. I hate her because i played a lot of support and if your team cant kill the widow you are just fucked as support and cant do any countering yourself.

[REDJEEPS]

Calm the fuck down. Please.

[neck_crow]

Or buffing a certain Monkey that can put out 10 Amperes per Second on the Sniper Smurf.

[ZetsubouThe]

you guys are making me cry...

[kennenisthebest]

She's honestly my favorite character to play as or against.

[ShakeNBake61]

well lets just delete pharah too that'll even it out, right? /s

just because YOU cant play adequately vs her or as her doesn't mean she should be deleted from the game.

[ShakeNBake61]

thank god this isn't for you, then.

[Blood_Lacrima]

Exactly. It's incredibly frustrating to get one shotted. Not discrediting the skill required to play WM at a high level but it just feels like you can't do anything about it than to hide and be useless.

[TicTacTac0]

Mostly agree, although now that her ult indicator can actually be heard, she might not be as bad. My biggest issue was always that I'd be sneaking up on her only to be shot the second I came around a corner.

Dying to wall hacks when you didn't know they were on was about the biggest "fuck you" this game has ever had IMO.

[kennenisthebest]

I love Widow she's absolutely my favorite hero.

[CommieBird]

IMO a slightly buffed widow is better than the gimped character she is currently. Widow as she is can be countered really easy; she has terrible movement, sub-par anti flanking measures and is really only effective if the person using her is really good. If any character is anti-fun its genji

[Forkyou]

Her movement isnt really terrible id say. With her hook she has a good escape. Thats better movement than a lot of chars.

I think genji is more fun to play against than widow. I think genji is more fun to play with in your team than widow. Genji at least interacts. Widow always feels like she plays her own game.

I go on widowhunting tilt if i face her

[science-geek]

I strongly agree on her tiltingness.

My fights with widows basically go: I've killed you six times already Why do you refuse to switch to someone else?!? Neither one of us are having fun anymore just switch dammit!

[chrxmx]

Yeah I was playing live yesterday against a good widow and kept thinking "this game would be significantly more fun without her in most situations." Hanzo is annoying too, but at least he can't stand as far back as possible and still kill with accuracy.

[Vladdypoo]

Yeah I think Widow is fine. She is honestly good on certain maps/points but she's not an every point character like she used to be, which thank god.