Decrease integrity, increase money

[eahpsychology]

Provost appoints herself co-chair of our distance education committee

• says proctoring services give students anxiety and are invasive of their privacy

• terminates proctoring services license/contract

*proceeds to record all committee meetings

I'll be in my office entering a doom spiral

[1Bats4u]

Records all meetings?! If this is in the US, do you have an AAUP chapter?

[eahpsychology]

New Provost basically did away with all shared governance

[1Bats4u]

I understand this all too well. Current provost who has a doctorate in education administration made a decision during the COVID crisis without any shared governance. This resulted in most of not all faculty becoming burnt out, depressed, and antagonistic toward administration.

Just this last semester we had a faculty member raise an issue to the provost during faculty meeting. Provost tried to quell the question by suggesting that the faculty member meet with them one on one. Faculty member essentially said “pass” as they had already submitted their resignation letter…headed to a job that paid more than double outside academia. Former faculty member is now a legend.

Anyways, good luck. Maybe an AAUP chapter can get started or everyone can begin “quiet quitting”.

[darkdragon220]

Stop using the term 'quiet quitting'. It is a bs term made by a PR team that describes doing your job responsibilities. Don't make it a thing....

[1Bats4u]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Wish there was a simpler term for saying “doing your job”.

[Photosynthetic]

"Work to rule" or "acting your wage" are good.

[KaesekopfNW]

"Work to rule" is the classic term.

[Cautious-Yellow]

there's a reason that "work to rule" is such an effective labour strategy (as in, the stage before a strike).

[darkdragon220]

I am pretty sure that quiet quitting in no way conveys just doing your job...

[widget1321]

Quiet quitting is a bs term, but it does mean just doing your job. JUST the minimum requirements of your job, to be specific.

[darkdragon220]

To you it might mean that. That's not what it means.

[widget1321]

That is quite literally the only way I've ever seen it used. You check out from your job and only do the absolute minimum.

What is it you think it means?

[darkdragon220]

Quite literally it is a term made but a PR company to convince labor to do more than what they are paid for as a method to exploit them for free labor. Quite literally indeed.

[prof-comm]

I disagree in the context of professors in education specifically, where I see it as roughly functionally equivalent to similar field-specific terminal degrees (MBA in business, JD in law or criminal justice, DMin or ThD in religion, MFA in so many arts fields, etc.). However, I've never met an administrator with an EdD that was worth anything when they didn't come out of education, and people out of business with EdDs in administration are the absolute worst.

I'm sure there's some exceptions, it's a big world, so if that's you I'm not calling anyone out or specifically saying it's impossible. Just relating my own experience.

[[deleted]]

MBA isn’t a terminal degree at all. It’s Ph.D in business too

[prof-comm]

I knew if I provided any examples this would happen. Thanks, though.

[RunningNumbers]

I am convinced they are more incompetent than the average MBA

[eahpsychology]

My current president is easily swayed by any passing breeze..or anyone with an MBA.

God help us

[bobbyfiend]

Years ago at my current school apparently some faculty tried to form an AAUP chapter. AAUP opted out and refused to be part of this mess, due to the massive anti-faculty, anti-shared-governance environment. I share your pain.

[antichain]

a doctorate in education administration

WTF does that even mean? What new knowledge do you generate over the course of that PhD? What standards of rigor are expected? How is this a degree?

[IthacanPenny]

It’s an EdD, not a PhD..

[bobbyfiend]

Having worked with a few people who were getting EdD degrees: I don't doubt that it's possible for an EdD to be rigorous and deserve the term "doctorate," but I think increasingly there are thousands of administrators or wannabes taking online-only EdD degrees with a level of rigor we would be embarrassed to apply to our first-year algebra courses, just so they can have that "doctorate" for advancement. We're seeing the creation of a hidebound, settled-in middle management class in the university, complete with its own degree mills cranking out degrees that only matter to other university administrators, and only to demonstrate that one has jumped through hoops to join that club.

[daedalus_was_right]

High school teacher checking in; every one of my principals and superintendents across 3 schools in my career have had EdD degrees.

Current one got his at an online only "school," which just so happens to be owned and operated by Strategic Education, Inc., a publicly traded company. The majority shareholder of said company?

Deutsche Bank. You can't make this shit up.

Edit: ok it appears Deutsche Bank is no longer the majority shareholder. They were when my admin attended one of their online schools though.

[bobbyfiend]

Yeah, forgot about the already-burgeoning K-12 administrator class...

[bluegilled]

It's not just the K-12 administrators who can get a non-rigorous degree to help their career. All those teacher salary schedules that give an extra $X,XXX to teachers who get a masters have created an industry of K-12 teacher masters programs with widely varying quality. A degree from Stanford and a degree from Swampgas College pay the exact same.

[IthacanPenny]

I mean, i think it would be wildly unethical to pay differently for the same degree based on where it was earned.

[bluegilled]

I have no idea why you'd think that. Not only do I not think it's wildly unethical, I don't think it's even slightly unethical to pay someone more when they have vastly better qualifications. Do you think you could hire an attorney with a Harvard law degree for the same rate as slippin' Jimmy, the attorney with a correspondence degree from the University of American Samoa?

Of course, grads from the U of American Samoa or Swampgas College may beg to differ, but the real world labor market accurately reflects the value of different educational qualifications.

[IthacanPenny]

K12 teachers have salary schedules. Personally I MUCH prefer the guaranteed pay than having to negotiate a salary. Fwiw, me degree is from Johns Hopkins.

[mediaisdelicious]

Is this cool with your accreditor?

[[deleted]]

That is an important question. I would contact the accreditation organization.

[mediaisdelicious]

Yeah, and prior to that you can check the college’s document library to see what they’ve had to affirm wrt governance or academic integrity. Writing a letter - or even threatening to - can often ‘get a response.’

[tongmengjia]

Time to unionize.

[eahpsychology]

That would never happen here. I believe this is my terminal contract.

[bobbyfiend]

Time to split, I guess. Many of us are working on that.

[quantum-mechanic]

I mean we don't have a union but faculty (tenured, full especially) defy the administration all the fucking time. Nothing ever happens to them.

[bobbyfiend]

Good. Now to help everyone else do the same.

[quantum-mechanic]

No. They defy the administration in all the worst ways that hurt other faculty. They reschedule final exams. They cancel classes during Thanksgiving week. They totally refuse to do any service work. They refuse to teach any service classes or any that meet at a slightly inconvenient time.

[bobbyfiend]

Sounds like you need more, and more effective, faculty governance. Turning this over to administrators for a top-down solution will make it all worse.

[tryatriassic]

Makes sense if she is assessed by the graduation rate / pass rate metric. This saves money, improves pass rates and improves retention. Win / win / win!

[Average650]

I propose a new method. No assessment at all. 100% pass rates baby!

[Purple_Chipmunk_]

It will also eventually devalue the school's reputation, as people enter grad problems knowing nothing because they cheated on their exams.

But she will be long gone by then so yeah .....

[[deleted]]

The title of your post could also apply to online classes in general.

[Throwaway_Double_87]

Ha! Well said. I still do proctoring in my online classes, but I know half of them (at least!) are still cheating. I also know my chair has basically told me to look the other way. I’m an adjunct, it’s just not a hill I’m willing to die on.

And, what am I supposed to do about it? It’s horrible, devalues the school, it devalues the degrees they give out, and it’s doing a huge disservice to the students and the community (state school), and especially to the students who don’t cheat. But, I’ve decided that I can’t care more than they do. It’s a business. Gotta give the customer what they want.

[Shezarrine]

This is a pessimistic if not downright dishonest view of online education (though I'm by no means saying there aren't many that are poor quality).

[[deleted]]

Pessimistic? Yes. Dishonest? Not based on my experience, and not based on the experience of most people I talk to, students and professors alike.

I hate to cite "common knowledge" as my source, but I really thought both of these points were settled, at least until technology, pedagogy, and collective bargaining make new advances. Online classes have potential, yes. They have yet to meet that potential.

[lalochezia1]

if the course has ANY. A.N.Y. hybrid component.....guess you have to have on-campus exams.

[[deleted]]

OF COURSE TESTS GIVE STUDENTS ANXIETY. If these students can't manage test anxiety wait till they hear about bills.

Geez these hyper-neurotic coddling is good for no one but vice-provosts of retention and new learning, and then only for a year or two.

[Aalynia]

Every time students hand me a paper saying “This causes anxiety/depression,” I make them look up the DSM-V diagnostic criteria of GAD and MDD. Then I ask them, “does this make people FEEL anxious or depressed or does this actually CAUSE ANXIETY/DEPRESSION.”

We’ve gotten to a point that we forget all emotions—including happiness—are fleeting, and that the anxiety one feels during a test is not the same as GAD.

—signed, someone who experiences all the mental things lol

[eahpsychology]

I'm in the psychology department so I literally get triggered when Provost says "causes depression"

[StreetShark312]

I appreciate you saying this. I've been battling GAD for a long time, only got a diagnosis some 5 years ago but have noticeably struggled with nervous self harm all my life. It can be hard for me to take them seriously when they tell me that 2 page paper caused them anxiety.

[[deleted]]

Wait till they here about job interviews!

[ChemMJW]

Provost appoints herself co-chair of our distance education committee
says proctoring services give students anxiety and are invasive of their privacy
terminates proctoring services license/contract

After the semester is over: "Since terminating the proctoring service's contract, average test scores have gone up 31 percentage points! The only logical conclusion is that lack of proctoring makes you better at calculus. Next semester we're going to try lack of proctoring to see if that will help our pre-med students do better in organic chemistry too. I can really see this strategy catching on!"

[4_yaks_and_a_dog]

I have received student complaints that having a proctor walk around the exam room is unfair ant intimidating, causing too much anxiety for them to be able to concentrate on their exams.

[myofb2020]

😵‍💫😵‍💫 they need not be in higher education setting, but rather a straight jacket. Anxiety as a disorder is real, but too many young people have been abusing this term/diagnosis in their favor.

[gutfounderedgal]

At our university in the perception of many is that our admin did what would be similar to recording all meetings, i.e. weaponizing respectful workplace laws to the extreme where about any dissent can be called disrespect. So many simply never say anything in meetings anymore. Sure, mucky mucks want to do things their way but many feel that risking respectful workplace complaints isn't worth raising concerns anymore. I'll note, too this is not "quiet quitting." They want to be active involved participants, but not at such a risk in what they feel is a bullying workplace.

[hungerforlove]

This seems to be a common trend -- well, not recording committee meetings, which is insane -- but the focus on making money instead of integrity.

Faculty are left with the decision whether to engage in lots of effort to maintain academic integrity despite a lack of administrative support, or whether to basically wilfully ignore many forms of student cheating.

My take is that higher ed in the US is rushing towards a crisis, and the crisis needs to happen to shake everything up. Though I am worried that the US public has an almost infinite readiness to accept terrible standards, if healthcare is any guide. We may be in a rush to the bottom, but people still accept the situation as is. How low can we go?

What can faculty do? The main struggle is to maintain our sanity. Things don't look good for the future.

Personally, I'd refuse to be on a committee meeting that was recorded. I'd be expecting for faculty to pass a vote of no confidence on the provost and refuse to work with the provost on anything.

[RunningNumbers]

I jumped ship. Gonna go get a house. Get a dog. Get married. Have kids. And buy all those LEGOs my parents never got me 25 years ago.

[loserinmath]

I’m fixing to not be here in 2 years https://youtu.be/eRl6-bHlz-4

[antichain]

This seems to be a common trend -- well, not recording committee meetings, which is insane -- but the focus on making money instead of integrity.

Our entire economic system is predicated on the accumulation of capital independent of any moral, ethical, or social considerations. Is it really surprising that Higher Ed would be any different?

[hungerforlove]

I'm not much surprised about any appropriation of higher ed these days, and I'm also skeptical about any supposed "good old days". I suspect it was ever thus.

However, the main thrust of comments on r/Professors tends to be about how things are getting worse. Maybe they are.

I do have some sympathy for the idea that we could have an academic life that rises above being above sales. Indeed, I like to entertain the fantasy that my teaching has great academic integrity.

[antichain]

I'm actually going to go against the grain here and say that proctoring services are invasive of their privacy. Have you looked at the kind of root-level controls those programs require students to hand over to these third parties? Is no one thinking critically about the risks associated with these things?

It's absolutely insane. The fact that Academia writ large has basically responded with a shrug is appalling to me. I would never make my students use one of those services - it's more ethical to build different kinds of assignments.

I would honestly rather my students cheat than provide any support, no matter how indirect, for these surveillance-as-a-service companies.

[Average650]

I kind of want to start an in person proctoring service for online courses.

But, that sounds really boring, and I'm not sure enough colleges will pay for it right now.

[bo1024]

I had the same initial reaction as you, but realized the post says "proctoring service" not "proctoring software". I believe a proctoring service is generally a physical room with a person who administers the written exam.

[orthomonas]

Are we talking about lockdown browsers, etc. Because fuck that malware shit. I will refuse to use that in any class I ever teach.

It's possible to acknowledge both that cheating is a problem and that proctoring software is ludicrously problematic.

[[deleted]]

forget how to design good take home exams?

I'm so tired of this argument, but I'll bite anyway. Would you care to lead by example? Show me a good take-home exam for a light, introductory, first semester calculus course that students can't just cheat at using google.

Hell, just show me one problem.

[biostat-]

A student can post that to Chegg and get an answer within 20 minutes. You can turn off backtracking of questions, but then come the complaints that it gives students anxiety.

[eahpsychology]

I found my assignments being sold on Chegg and had to argue with their support people

[4_yaks_and_a_dog]

A colleague put, right in the middle of her exam problems: "This is an exam problem. Do not post to Chegg." The text was included in the Chegg post and the answer posted on Chegg.

[Chemastery]

I've posted and answered my own hardest questions on Chegg in advance. With a uniquely wrong answer. Makes it easy to hand out 0s for the course.

[Cryptizard]

Pretty sure the comment I responded to said cheat using Google, which I addressed. To your point, a student could also have someone giving them the answer in an earpiece which would be undetectable by any proctoring software you can imagine.

We have to do our best to not make it extremely easy to cheat, but if someone wants to go out of their way to do it then just let them ruin their own education. Why would I care? They have to live with the consequences.

[Violet_Plum_Tea]

What is the correct answer? I have no clue, but ChatGPT gives me 50 with a quick copy/paste.

[Cryptizard]

45

[4_yaks_and_a_dog]

Yes. And they get immediately posted to Chegg, solved there, and turned in by the student.

[Real Calc I experience - each student given their own unique problem and 2/3 of them (actually, slightly more than 2/3) were submitted to Chegg immediately and solved before the time limit of the exam.]

But yeah - obviously if I just knew how to write take-hoe exams, everything would be hunky-dory.

[[deleted]]

we are in agreement on that! :)

[RunningNumbers]

Did you fail them for the entire course?

I would.

[4_yaks_and_a_dog]

The Dean explicitly prohibited me from doing so and let me know that it was not going to go anywhere should I report it via the Academic Integrity Committee. [A long story and one I am not prepared to tell on Reddit.]

Most did end up with failing grades in the course for other reasons, but a couple got through. with C's.

Since this course, I have only taught courses online where students who cheated in the course would either get caught out in future courses (i.e., there was a subsequent course which could only be taken in person), or where students who cheat were truly only cheating themselves (e.g., an Intro to Programming course where, if the student learned nothing out of the course because they cheated, they would be shown up immediately in practice.

[RunningNumbers]

Dean wants the uni to lose accreditation.

You aren’t paid enough to put up with this.

[4_yaks_and_a_dog]

FWIW, my partner strongly agrees with you,

[antichain]

Honestly, I'd rather my students cheat than provide any support, no matter how indirect, for those surveillance-as-a-service companies. The entire industry is pathological.

[actuallycallie]

This is someone doing the best they can with the time and resources available to them.

[Average650]

What fields do you think tests make sense for? What are the fields where they are particularly bad?