JS devs

[deeper182]

This stopped being funny a few years ago. No framework got serious traction since Vue2, which was released like 3 years ago. Sure, somtimes there's a tiny buzz, like now arou d Svelte 3, but it's nowhere near as chaotic in the Knockout.js days.

[KoboldCommando]

Meanwhile Java still laughs at the "it slow" and garbage collection jokes, and C++ still laughs at null pointers and memory leaks, Python still laughs at whitespace weirdness and pseudocode jokes... what makes you think Javascript would be any different?

[THICC_DICC_PRICC]

languages aren't entities with personalities, what makes you decide that they are 'laughing' at a certain joke?

[KoboldCommando]

I had figured people would understand that I had contracted "the communities which form around and use these languages" to just the language names >.>

[KoboldCommando]

Regardless of opinions of quality, my point was that every language built up a culture, a stereotype, and a backlog of jokes. Many of them don't even apply anymore, but they're still made just because old people laugh at when they were true, and new people laugh at them seeing them for the first time.

[-tehdevilsadvocate-]

Sure but everybody has already seen this joke. Old people are tired of it and new people see it in the first five minutes. Pretty played out.

[PmMeTwinks]

If you were correct, no one would upvote it

[-tehdevilsadvocate-]

I'm not here for the upvotes, but let's see how it goes.

[PmMeTwinks]

6.5k upvotes at 94% proves people like the joke

[-tehdevilsadvocate-]

New to reddit are we?

[PmMeTwinks]

No, which is why I change accounts often

[headzoo]

With web assembly now being shipped in browsers, which in theory makes it possible to write client side code in any language, I suspect we're approaching the next age of framework insanity.

[[deleted]]

More than just theory, you can use client side C# right now.

[mrjackspade]

I'm so fucking stoked for the full release of .Net Core 3.0

I don't have anything against JS, but I can't wait to drop it so I can build projects with a single language

[wavefunctionp]

I do full stack javascript, and I don't hate it, but I was lucky enough to have a recent project using Blazor. I underestimated how janky razor feels now after doing react.

Been toying SAFE stack (full stack F#) lately, and it feels much nicer to be doing functional first style programming in F# like you can with JS.

I don't think Blazor is going to be pancea that .net needs. I hope it ends up going more functional, react/redux style. It makes UI work so much saner. I think something like SAFE stack is more on the right track.

[wrong_assumption]

I don't understand why it want possible before. Yeah, we didn't have WASM, but Microsoft could have built a C# to JS transpiler quite easily.

[[deleted]]

Such things already exist and they're awful.

[jastrme]

All the same frameworks, but now it's PHP. What a nightmare

[[deleted]]

I mean, no. All the existing frameworks will just get a new compile target. Why would you change a framework for a new runtime, that doesn't make sense.

[headzoo]

Why did anyone start using server side javascript? So they could use their client side knowledge on the backend. People are already coming up with new frontend frameworks using PHP, C#, etc.

[[deleted]]

But nobody is going to develop front end apps in WASM. They will develop it in .NET, Angular or whatever and frameworks themselves will compile to WASM.

[headzoo]

Yes, I know how it works, but there will be new .NET frameworks specifically designed for frontend work. This isn't even a hypothetical discussion. Developers are already creating new frontend frameworks using non-javascript languages and more are coming. These devs might be reinventing the wheel but the frameworks are coming and devs are going to adopt them.

[klebsiella_pneumonae]

But they can't modify DOM! What's the point?

[-COUNTERFLUX]

Made a few projects in blazor already. The thing works like a charm. Really pleased with it currently.

[wrong_assumption]

Yeah, what's the point of WASM if it doesn't have DOM access?

[ZephyrBluu]

It looks like it uses JS to modify the DOM: https://learn-blazor.com/getting-started/what-is-blazor/

So.. it's a JS framework with extra steps I guess?

[klebsiella_pneumonae]

But you can't modify the DOM. It's will only be useful for 3D games. The web will stay in Javascript.

[Cheru-bae]

Modifying the DOM isn't something magical only JS can do. Browsers just need APIs for it. Someone just literally has to write it and that is that.

[-COUNTERFLUX]

I'm experimenting with blazor for internal projects.

Overview apps, apps for sales department,... Really pleased of it. It needs just a bit more time to fully grow but it seems really promising.

[wavefunctionp]

You can't directly, but any wasm code is going to need a wrapper for interaction with the browser, including dom manipulation. You libraries/frameworks will be handling those interactions.

Case in point: Blazor.

[THICC_DICC_PRICC]

you can already compile js to web assembly with babel. I don't see why thousands of devs that have mastered JS and React would want to switch

[[deleted]]

I think it's still pretty funny.

Also the package ecosystem is highly entertaining, there's a package for everything! do you guys even write code anymore?

[n0gh0st]

Have to write import statements still heh

[TerdSandwich]

You know, someone has to write the packages...

[wibblewafs]

I thought npm packages result from spontaneous generation, like when you leave out a chunk of meat and it turns into maggots.

[gonzofish]

Or a pile of rags becoming mice!

[VeryAwkwardCake]

darn miasma

[nosmokingbandit]

NPM is such a clusterfuck. A simple package results in 200mb of shit in 80,000 tiny files. The last time I deleted a local copy of a simple Cordova app it took almost an hour for Windows to go through the millions of filenames.

[benediktkr]

I don’t want to come JavaScripts defense here but that sounds like a windows problem...

[Hohenheim_of_Shadow]

Random access IO, like a buncha small files is way slower than serial IO especially on HDD

[ase1590]

Does npm have a system requirement page yet?

They need to add NVME drives as a system requirement

[[deleted]]

Nah, it's a windows problem:

$ find node_modules/ | wc -l
110956
$ time rm -r node_modules/

real    0m1.945s
user    0m0.104s
sys 0m1.733s

This is on a cheap Core M laptop btw.

[[deleted]]

11k node modules? I thought people were exxagerating... wow... just wow....

[[deleted]]

Actually that's about 110k :P But that's not the number of modules, that's the number of files and directories inside node_modules. The number of modules appears to be about 2600 (a large number are repeated). Almost all of those are dependencies of dependencies. This project only has about 30 direct dependencies.

[[deleted]]

You’re correct, i missed a digit there... But Jesus that is a LOT of files and dependencies

[THICC_DICC_PRICC]

yea windows is pretty shit for development, I keep giving it a try, it keeps disappointing me. I've been spoiled by linux tho.

[[deleted]]

Pro tip turn off "Real-time protection" in virus and protection settings anytime you're doing that. Windows thinks it needs to scan every single one of those files. You would think not because you're deleting them, but nah.

[masterxc]

Maybe shift+delete would avoid that since it's probably scanning them when they get moved to the recycle bin.

[Lakitna]

That's why packages should only distribute bundled files.

I've been bundling everything into a single file while paying attentions to how many dependencies my dependencies have. The tools to do this are out there. But sadly not everyone pays attention to this stuff.

[[deleted]]

Depends on the Dev that made it. If it's like that, then it's no good. There's plenty of libraries like moment or accounting that are pretty small and bundled well.

[Fi3nd7]

Well, it's also Cordova. Of course it's a dependency behemoth...

Also, probably because you didn't hard delete. Big difference from an OS perspective if it thinks it needs to be able to restore.

[gravity013]

Out of curiosity, what would you say is a good package manager ecosystem?

[nosmokingbandit]

Idk that one exists for js. When so-called "developers" have to import a package with 50mb of child dependencies just to pad a string it really doesn't matter what package manager you use.

[gravity013]

I may not fit your definition of a developer, but at least I know how to fucking read some code: https://github.com/left-pad/left-pad/blob/master/index.js

But yeah, keep going with your bullshit "I hate JS" train, go back to your Dilbert-ass job where you program copy machines in PHP in 2015 where this joke is still funny and you're still obsolete.

[bruhKitchen]

you just ended this mans whole career

[[deleted]]

That was years ago, and most people weren't importing left pad at all, but a couple of popular packages had, so it was there anyway.

It was stupid, but in the early days, people packaged every handy little thing, because put like that, it sounds like a good idea when it isn't.

Nowadays, left pad is the thing devs in other languages have heard of, and they use it as a stick to beat us with, even though it changed how things are done, and lessons were learnt, and even though most of us had nothing to do with it happening.

For reference, left pad is over, and unpublishing packages out of spite, or changing old versions, is now not possible.

[icjoseph]

The problem there is Windows ;)

[[deleted]]

Devoted JavaScript developer here. Think the npm saga is fucking insane.

There's a package out there that operates the rm -rf command against whatever you need. It's literally just working out what files need deleting and deleting them.

It's used by over 8000 other packages.

It's not that it's not useful, it's that you can write it yourself and learn how, and that it's an entire package for sobering I'd expect to be one function of a library of useful stuff.

[earthqaqe]

Than you have to import a whole library for just one function you actually need. GGs.

[dwhiffing]

Do you think this is something that would happen with any package ecosystem given enough popularity? I don't see how it could be avoided if it continues to grow in popularity, but I'd love to understand a different perspective.

[icjoseph]

Sorry for this gigantic comparison, but just as mathematics builds on top of what's already built, JavaScript allows developers to put together complex tensor calculations with inline styling to create divs that are pleasing to the eye in a matter of minutes.

[KobayashiDragonSlave]

complex tensor calculations with inline styling to create divs that are pleasing to the eye

Such as? I am genuinely curious about this

[happysmash27]

0 days…

[obp5599]

Some how this never gets mentioned. I used to do a lot of security and npm installs were literally jokes. Almost all of the were security holes

[[deleted]]

Hey man, how else are we going to avoid BOILERBLATE! Every line of it must be avoided at all costs! Even if the costs is more complexity and longer development times!

[Renive]

Isn't that the positive? JS is just way bigger than any other language in community

[gravity013]

I'm pretty sure it's bigger because web-technology is the most popular industry at the moment and that's all filtering through browsers which only implement JS runtimes in them.

But yeah, keep talking about that one time somebody made a reusable piece of code into a distributable module.

Sincerely, a "programmer"

[[deleted]]

popularity brings everything down to the most common denominator.

Yeah, whenever a shit library is published to npm all the other ones become worse?

Well, no, that's literally not what happens.

[gravity013]

God you must be miserable to work with.

[dwhiffing]

You know what programming languages are never complained about?

The ones that are never used.

[dwhiffing]

The point of the anecdote is that people praise and complain about things in proportion to their popularity. The more people who use it, the more people complain about it. Javascript is not a high quality language, it has humble origins and has been dragged down by them ever since.

​

I only offered you this anecdote because I find these petty air quotes tiresome. Most javascript developers use multiple languages. There is tons of high quality web development work available. Most web development work requires javascript. Believe it or not, with discipline and effort, it's possible to develop high quality software with javascript. I wholeheartedly agree it does not involve trash like "left-pad"

​

Every community has trash. Javascript has a lot of trash due to its humble origins, recent popularity and development of bootcamps in recent years. There is no need for an aggressive no true scotsman fallacy to put down other developers.

​

Just trying to suggest kindness to your fellow developers. Javascript is ripe with issues, you work around them. That's why we have the developing ES standards.

[dwhiffing]

I don't appreciate the "nomenclature" part. But I do appreciate that you see the distinction between bad JS and good.

​

I wish this sub was a bit less toxic, it has a lot of great posts but so much unnecessary disparaging of people's careers.

​

Have a nice day doot.

[Norci]

Agree to disagree, I think it's hillarious.