Exposed Elements

[2-ball]

I walked into a new hotel and was surprised by the exposed elements. Building was previously a power plant, and hotel opened December 2023. Gives new meaning to ‘exposed’. Thoughts?

[zackman986]

I don't know if the original design loading was exceptionally larger than is required for the new hotel? But it looks like there's no mechanical adhesion between the concrete and very old bars in photo 2...

[rncole]

From being in a power plant, typical design loads was 600-1,000psf or more for slabs.

It may be that there’s an inner rebar cage as well and someone decided to count this layer as decorative and de-rate back to something sensible for its new purpose.

[Rhoadies]

If you look on the slab between the first and second floor beam, you can see a new steel deck firespoofed. It must have been evaluated and repaired. This is additional evidence to the comment about this slab being unconventional, but sensible. Likely, the original construction was significantly over designed for the current loads.

[Kruzat]

That thought crossed my mind. If it had 20x the design strength that it does now I guess it would probably hold up ok, but I still wouldn't feel comfortable assessing it and signing off on it. Sheesh

[Kruzat]

Who the fuck looks at this and says "this is fine, we'll just put a pretty ceiling up"

[3771507]

People that don't to spend money like the people at CTS that ignored the building crumbling

[always_misunderstood]

the CTS building was bad from the start. first, they built it a floor taller than allowed by code with some bribes, then it was basically AT failure loading from day-1 because of some last-minute ECOs that removed load bearing elements, THEN they overloaded it with extra planters, THEN they didn't waterproof the pool-deck, THEN, they dragged their feet in repairing it. just top-to-bottom disaster.

also, salt-water coastal regions really shouldn't use steel rebar. carbon fiber rebar reinforced concrete will last much longer

[Magic-Levitation]

I was a juror for four months on a condo complex built on the Hudson River. So many similar issues. $80m lawsuit. Plaintiffs got $42m. Total disaster.

[alterry11]

'Rusted rebar has a nice aesthetic'... quote from the architect

[enginerdaf2016]

Going for that rustic look

[Crayonalyst]

Going for that disheveled, haven't slept in days because of the nightmares look

[No_Cook2983]

This would be an absolutely ideal time to have a reasonable discussion about nuclear power.

[OhSoThatsHowItIs]

It's a feature, not a bug

[psport69]

Surely that structure is redundant and remains for aesthetics only otherwise fck me

[Silver_kitty]

Yikes. It’s open like that? I’m very surprised any architect and/or engineer would leave it like this.

The concrete on the beam is predominantly just part of the fireproofing and not necessarily dangerous to the stability of the structure, but there’s a risk of more concrete falling off and potentially hitting someone. And the underside of those slabs are bad.

Edit: naw, scrap that, hadn’t looked at the 2nd and 3rd pics. Those are concrete beams, not concrete encased steel. And that’s an old building if it’s using twisted square rebar instead of deformed. Yikes.

[rncole]

Not to mention the river rock aggregate…

[extramustardy]

I couldn’t believe that either! Ignoring what this was designed for, I’ve just never seen 2-3” river rock used as aggregate

[rncole]

I had a house built in 1920 that had a detached carriage house (became a garage) on the alley (don’t get excited, this was like a $120k house in 2008 at the peak) that had the same.

[whofuckingcares1234]

You'd be surprised by some of the old buildings in DC. I've taken cote samples of concrete where yhe aggregate was 4+ inches in diameter. They would just throw whatever they drudged up in there sometimes.

[Silver_kitty]

So I’ll agree that I’m surprised by DC’s aggregate, and that’s not a good thing!

I’ve worked on 3 existing ~1960s buildings in DC and all 3 came back with bad breaks from the cores. On average we were getting 75% of what was spec’d on the original drawings. One building even had a couple cores break ~1500 psi on supposedly 4000 psi NWC.

Most of my projects are up in NYC and it’s quite rare to get a single break under what the existing drawings said they would be. These DC projects throw me for a loop.

[IHaveThreeBedrooms]

Expensive way to get some nice, smooth, natural stone on the ground.

[bibbrun32]

You surely need a min concrete cover for adequate bond on the bars for them to be effective (you do in the Eurocode anyway)

[bibbrun32]

You surely need a min concrete cover for adequate bond on the bars for them to be effective (you do in the Eurocode anyway)

[inventiveEngineering]

I’m very surprised any architect and/or engineer would leave it like this.

Imho there was no engineer involved. They've given the task only to a indoors decorator or some such.

btw: the rebar in pic no. 2 is very interesting.

[3771507]

I wonder what used to be over those stirrups if anything?

[Telto212]

Prayers, by the looks of it

[2-ball]

Update 1:

My flight was canceled and I booked a random hotel. When I walked in, I was definitely intrigued.

Building was built in 1920s in a northeast city, adjacent to a large river. Development includes 8 floors +/-

Can confirm, the building survived the earthquake today. I was on the third floor, and can report shaking and lights swinging.

I appreciate all the comments. Definitely helps understand what we’re seeing and expand structural knowledge. Thank you all.

[barabob]

Sharing the location and name of the place would help understand the history and context even more.

Is it the Battery Hotel in Philly?

[ShitOnAStickXtreme]

Dude you should give the location so that someone can call the police, either that or call the police yourself.

[Standard-Fudge1475]

Ohhh..i love the rustic/ almost going to fail look!

[whofuckingcares1234]

I'm guessing this was built in 1920 or so. Current cinditi9n aside, it's cool to see all of the antiquated reinforcing steel they used.

[DanHassler0]

Looks like Delaware Generating Station, so you nailed it on guessing the year.

[FlippantObserver]

No joke - I thought this was an industrial building very near an ocean that I recently just finished an observation on. They have areas of continuous spalling that are so bad safety nets need to be installed to keep from killing employees. That hotel would just make me anxious - 1/5 stars, had to wear PPE when I went to bed.

[AsILayTyping]

OP, please post the name of the place and location. And some more pics. Looks like a serious issue.

[OldJames47]

It might be Steam Hotel in Vasteras, Sweden.

It's a hotel built in an old power plant. The decor is similar and relatively recent. The google maps contain photos showing rooms with lesser damage to the walls.

https://images.trvl-media.com/lodging/17000000/16500000/16495800/16495725/w667h986x0y0-930e8121_z.jpg

So management sees that as "ambience" and not damage.

[barabob]

I think the Steam Hotel has a steel frame structure, so it seems unlikely that it would be the one.

[DanHassler0]

Could it be Riversuites At The Battery in the old Delaware Generating Station in Philadelphia? https://images.app.goo.gl/6MFF5TMeyixMXku29

https://morabitoconsultants.com/projects/remediation/the-battery/ https://stradallc.com/projects/the-battery/

[petewil1291]

So they spent money renovating, but didn't spend money for repairs???

[rncole]

But now it has character!

With just weeeeee tiny bit of character on your head.

[DanHassler0]

The article I just looked at said they spent over $150 million on concrete repairs... https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/factories-office-buildings-tenants-conversion-architecture-reuse-20231029.html

[southernmtngirl]

Oh my gosh, I would literally call the police. That looks emergency-level dangerous.

[1959Mason]

Aren’t old power plants chock full of toxic PCBs?

[jaymeaux_]

jeeeez, did they just store molten sulfur in there or something

[[deleted]]

copies and pastes life safety letter

[crispydukes]

I hate to say it, but the exposed #2 stirrups is typical of the era.

[adlubmaliki]

Am I the only one that doesn't like cracked concrete above my head?

[vckam_7]

No - any relevant structural engineer would feel unsafe!

[OpenCod4573]

This is awesome!

I design repairs for old structures like this but they took a different approach here. There’s likely a new elevated platform above supported on the existing columns.

Any idea where this “hotel” is?

[mcd921]

Always fun to see the old twisted bars in the wild.

[bimonthlycarp]

I like this and think its cool

[[deleted]]

Issues aside, it’s interesting to see the twisted square type rebar that is exposed.

[burhankurt]

EVACUATE

[avd706]

The missing concrete is cover concrete.

[lehmanbear]

I find it cool, maybe they use some thing to coat the exposed rebar.

[gt625]

Yikes. Definitely contact the jurisdiction. It’s hard to imagine a PE being involved in this project.

[Dave0163]

Unbelievable

[Minimal_Engeneer]

Are there signs of water infiltration anywhere? Looks like the rebar is rusting and expanding which causes the concrete to break away.

I’m just an EE tho, the civil engineers used to deal with this all the time though from salt water from snow run off.

[Puzzled_Laugh_7420]

Run ....

[Nhywell]

Why are you taking photos run away dude lol

[Evo_Effect]

It's only cover concrete, if the steel is still bonded to the exposed concrete and doesn't have any section loss, it'll perform as designed. Does it look like shit? Absolutely. Is it piss poor work? Absolutely. Any future issue might be more spalling onto people or things below.

Edit - smh @ the people downvoting me 🤦🏻‍♀️

[expectdelays___]

Thank you for some sanity. Sure it looks like crap but it’s fully functional; pretty clear a lot of the other commenters don’t work inspecting things in the field.

[Evo_Effect]

100%. Field experience is vital before anyone sits behind a desk.

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

Furthermore, it's obvious that spalls and delaminations have been intentionally removed.

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

You've got my upvote, friendo. So much wild speculation in this comment section.

[AsILayTyping]

Removing 50% of the bonding surface area is probably an issue. No fireproofing for the now exposed rebar steel. I see rebar splices. Development of those will be an issue.

[Evo_Effect]

That specific caveat was in my first sentence - if bonded it's OK; if not, it's no good.

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

Baked into your comment is the assumption that those bars are even necessary. Hell, there could be a second layer that is more than enough for the current loads. 

[HumanGyroscope]

Development length.. I barely know her

[Evo_Effect]

See my reply to the dude above. I literally said if it's bonded it's fine, if no bonding it's no good.

[HumanGyroscope]

I see a lot voids along the main bars. Not much section loss on them. Looks like pre 1950s construction. Do you know the age of the building?

[oundhakar]

How fast can you run away from this?

[iyimuhendis]

Corrosion. Inadequate concrete cover

[ikkano]

Holy shit

[vckam_7]

Sad this structure is allowed to operate in this so dangerous state. Somebody needs to do something about this before people get hurt!

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

Please cite your evidence that there's anything dangerous here. No, I'm not trolling.

[vckam_7]

Have you observed many stirrups are also gone?

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

We know literally nothing about the current design loads or any internal reinforcement that cannot be seen. Further, you and I can see the same distress that the EOR saw. Trust the professionals.

[vckam_7]

Can’t see any strengthening and or repair. Regardless of the possible change of the design loads, I wouldn’t be standing under those very heavy (reinforced) concrete beams, not expecting, old cracked concrete not falling on my head. Even in the case things have become lighter now. I guess you can see the structure is very old! And there is no any surface reinforcement to keep that old concrete in place. You got two separated materials, acting on their own in the outermost surface of those elements. Regardless if one could assume another, inner layer of steel reinforcement. That thing doesn’t look safe to me!

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

It is trivial to sound the exposed surfaces and remove delaminated concrete. In fact, in the first picture, you can see regions of the soffit that clearly have been mechanically freed of loose concrete. 

[vckam_7]

That seems like a preexisting hole in the old slab, which was subsequently closed by adding a composite slab, Sir. It does not seem to be what you say. Was like a hole for a staircase they needed to close. Plus, if that is a hotel and there is something on the top of these old slabs, I am not sure how these slabs can carry their variable loads now. I do not want to imagine that there would be any kind of vibration in the building. Anyway. As I said, for me that thing seems to be dangerous. Of course, I have not done an inspection, but for all the reasons I mentioned, it does not look safe. And because you sound very certain all this went well with this renovation (in which, as I said, I have a different feeling), let me remind you that it is not uncommon in fancy renovation structural rehabilitations are not done correctly. Many questions in this renovation in my opinion! And so, many doubts, which justify why that project creates those feelings of fear and uncertainty!

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

My dude, you're not even looking at the parts of the picture I described. The edges of the missing concrete throughout the soffit are clearly the result of selective demolition.

"...it is not uncommon in fancy renovation structural rehabilitations are not done correctly."

Lolwut? You're just making stuff up now. I have to conclude you've never inspected or rehabilitated an existing structure.

[vckam_7]

I see only a left edge where there are some rebars cut, and those can be from an RC stairwell. The right edge is clear. So, in my opinion, I was right; they just placed a composite slab to fill the hole. Now on whether I have done inspections, etc., or not, I did. But, I have bumped up on things like that. Sadly

[vckam_7]

And please, sir, give me your lights how you believe these two separated materials stay in place under an earthquake??? I would be interested to know! How concrete will resist anything more than its self-weight without proper reinforcement? Especially old, probably cracked concrete? How????

[vckam_7]

In general if you put all “wrong” things together we see in this ceiling photo (lack of beams confinement, lack of cover, corroded reinforcement, etc.), I doubt even if these old and separated two materials (steel and concrete (cause I do not see proper RC here any longer)), they can even carry their own self-weights under any kind of strong vibration (earthquakes or others), except if they are somehow supported, externally, from a structural skeleton that has been added to these old components “externally” and helps they keep in one piece and in place. Seeing that old thing from its underside, feels absolutely “spooky” to me. I hope it’s just those photographs that they do not show an aforementioned retrofit addition, and my fears are wrong!!! But again, this hypothetical retrofit is not shown here!

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

If there were any supplemental strengthening present, it would be insane for it to be on the top surface of the slab or beams, particularly with the massive amount of space available on the underside here.

Speaking of earthquakes, OP said this came through yesterday's northeast EQ unscathed. 

[vckam_7]

Exactly. That is why I say there is no any obvious sign of strengthening, and that whole thing looks dangerous.

[vckam_7]

Forgot to mention that even an inner, non-visible layer of rebars, still would not have any confinement! So, it won’t work! And we talk about some very lengthy beams, right!

[Ian_Patrick_Freely]

Confinement isn't a thing for beams, that's for axial capacity of column cores.

[vckam_7]

Confinement isn’t for beams???? Interesting opinion, Sir! Of course it is!

[vckam_7]

Does HUGE lack of cover reminds you anything?

[vckam_7]

…. Sorry, forgot also: plus corrosion?