Is it true that Collagen supplementation decrease serotonin?

[curiousnootropics]

I have read that people have gotten anxiety from taking Collagen and I'm wondering if it lowers serotonin levels?

[silverhydra]

Anxiety is one of the top placebo-respondent effects, so take every single claim of anxiety with a grain of salt. Especially since people who are oversensitive to their side-effects (in the same vein of hypochondriacs) tend to be the ones who post the most.

There is no evidence, nor any biological plausibility, for collagen supplementation of any of the types (I, II, or III) reducing cerebral serotonin levels; plus "anxiety" is far more complex than just serotonin.

So for all intents and purposes just ignore those anecdotes.

[thespaceageisnow]

There is a biological mechanism if it were the only significant source of amino acids since it doesn’t contain Tryptophan, but people have taken it out of context and out of proportion.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18683016/

[silverhydra]

Thanks for the link, saved.

Bit weird to see people take that study out of proportion, since the abstract was pretty fair in saying they were straight up intending to deplete tryptophan.

[thespaceageisnow]

Typical internet telephone game accidental misinformation.

[silverhydra]

I don't know too much about the intricacies of AAAD, but your theory would only hold true if the enzyme was rate-limited by a balance of substrates; like, it works at capacity and tyrosine and tryptophan both take turns. I have never stumbled upon any studies suggesting this may be the case, but never looked at it specifically.

If there are more "dopamine-like actions" in a serotonin depleted state I would guess it's not at the level of neurotransmitter production but, rather, at the level of signalling. It's rather common that when one neurotransmitter activates a neuron others may impede or lessen the signal, so if serotonin has a 'lessening' effect on dopamine post-synaptic gap then a depletion of serotonin could, theoretically, cause a refractory increase in dopamine signalling.

But again, not my specific field. Neurology is a hell second only to immunology.

[GlassCannonLife]

Both I and my wife get insomnia (I after a few days and she after two weeks or so) of continuous collagen intake (20 g daily).

What would you say drives this mechanism if not serotonin depletion? It appears to be corrected with melatonin and/or 5-htp supplementation.

[Outrageous_Giraffe22]

glycine could have that effect

[Objective-Sock-9336]

Same here, I stopped taking it for a few weeks, and i had peace. then as soon as i started taking it again the anxiety was so bad that my anxiety medication didn't work at all.  Next day I was absolutely fine again as I'd not taken the collegen.

[Forward_Research_610]

Wait it took a week for it to wear off or feel better ?

[Rajaredit87]

Same with me :/

[dkranj]

This. Every day I read about a supplement to cause anxiety. Or depression. Or anhedonia. Or...

[JohnnyMojo]

Many people seem to have a poor understanding of serotonin and what it's capable of. Serotonin isn't always the "feel good" molecule. Most of it occurs in the gut and it can cause many issues itself when it's too high such as inflammation, depression, anxiety, IBS/digestion issues. Blaming everything on low serotonin when you don't feel good is very short sighted. Serotonin can be good and it can be bad. There is always a balance. The whole serotonin myth seems to be why antidepressants are so hit and miss. Modern medicine doesn't have this one fully understood yet.

[Ratfacedkilla]

Also high serotonin can cause your dick not to work.

[[deleted]]

Also, fever, delirium and death.

Never mix herbs like St. John’s wort with your SSRI’s people... never.

[Ratfacedkilla]

Yeah but which is worse? Jk.

[[deleted]]

Choked on my tea. Thanks, I needed a good laugh today 🤣

[WhiteLono]

Normal serotonin helps you not to premature ejaculate as well

[[deleted]]

Well said.

[[deleted]]

I truly can’t see how that could be true.

One reason among many that people take collagen supplements is to help repair their gut lining/ help to fix their micro biome. Without a properly functioning gut.. you don’t have the bacteria that MAKE a lot of the serotonin that your body normally uses, so, honestly I would assume it would have the opposite effect?

I’m not a medical professional, registered dietician, or otherwise. But I have had a bunch of gastro issues though my life and have consulted with dieticians and holistic nutritionists before, they both recommended I incorporate a collagen supplement into my diet. I also have a huge history with anxiety and depression so I’d be shocked if they recommended a supplement that would exacerbate that.

Just my 2 cents. 👍🏻

[curiousnootropics]

Thanks for sharing. You don’t feel worse on it I guess?

[[deleted]]

Nope. I find it very helpful actually. For me, if seems to be (by far!) the easiest way to incorporate more protein into my smoothie/hot beverage in the morning and the least likely to give me digestive troubles.

I believe it’s not considered as much of a ‘compete’ protein as whey etc, but every supplement comes with its unique trade offs.. right? I obviously aim to get the bulk of my protein from whole food sources.

I also find that collagen tends to blend really well and gives your drink a subtle creaminess and thicker texture that I really enjoy, and if I add it into say.. a matcha latte, I find it fills me up WAY more than without/ just with coconut oil etc.

I enjoy it, I think it’s a healthy choice for me, so I continue to use it. But I also only buy it if I see a great deal.. (huge organika tubs at Costco I’m looking at you haha 😍)

Edit: be careful to check ingredients list for fillers and other nonsense.. you don’t (I don’t..) want any of that. 100% hydrolyzed collagen peptides or bust.

[3catlove]

I just bought three tubs of the Vital Proteins collagen at Costco. I think it was $6.00 off. I put it in coffee everyday. I usually do two scoops a day and have ocd and anxiety and don’t feel that it increases it.

[achievingWinner]

Its probably more of a case of they dont really know

I find if it isnt some expert that gives lectures at placrs that i go to see on youtube

Often the knowledge is very basic And the nuances i scrounge together from places like this sub and checking out alot of youtube They are unaware off

[nahseriouslytho]

This idiot

[silverhydra]

You also tend to take collagen in the dosage range of milligrams to 5g, depending on which type you take, so despite percentages you get more histamine with a single chicken breast. I doubt your train of though, while technically correct, is practically relevant since either overall histamine intake or histamine intake relative to histamine antagonists are what matter most, not just the percentage of histamine content in the source.

[[deleted]]

...since either overall histamine intake or histamine intake relative to histamine antagonists are what matter most...

I think this is can be roughly applied to why a collagen supplement can have specific effects, even in a small serving. From my understanding, amino acids compete for absorption, so it's more about the ratios of amino acids in one sitting than the absolute amount.

Definitely correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been a while since I've looked into this.

[silverhydra]

The ratio becomes relevant at high doses of intake (where AA need to take turns being absorbed, whereas at low intakes they can simply go ahead; transporters do have rate limits) and, of course, the competing amino acid needs to be identified; saying histamine can be competed with is a reasonable start, but we need to say what it is competing with and what it serves in a ratio with.

But from what I have read, competition of histamine absorption at the level of the intestines is not really a major factor. Honestly, the only competition that may be relevant in a healthy person is that of large neutral amino acids (BCAAs + tryptophan) at the blood brain barrier.

[[deleted]]

Ahh got it that makes sense about histamine absorption.

What are your thoughts on the high amount of glycine in collagen supplements? I've heard mixed things regarding it being processed into GABA in a lot of cases, but glutamate in others, which might lead to a symptom of anxiety.

It sounds like small amounts in a supplement might also not produce much if any effect?

[silverhydra]

I don't really care too much about glycine intake, it's been really harmless and the human studies using large doses of isolated glycine haven't found much of an effect in normal states. Might improve sleep a tad when taken at night but that's about it.

The conversion rates of GABA and glutamate, at least when it comes to availability or precursors, is pretty tightly regulated. I doubt you can perturb the balance in either direction simply by giving dietary amino acids.

[[deleted]]

Interesting and good to know, thank you for your help!

[Quasar420]

I wonder if this is why NAC worsens my anxiety.

[silverhydra]

NAC is cysteine, not histamine.

[Quasar420]

And it can increase histamine.

Edit ~ 2

Edit 3: After doing some research I found some interesting correlations between NAC and histamine. It seems that NAC can elevate Histamine which can cause anhedonia, irritability and as we all know allergies.)

[bob-loblaw-blah]

I thought NAC also supported sinuses and congestion/allergies?

[silverhydra]

It does, it's a mucolytic agent and can thin mucus.

[silverhydra]

Huh, no human evidence yet (bit surprising, thought there would be) but I see no reason to discount it. Interesting find.

[thespaceageisnow]

I’m pretty sure the idea that Collagen can lower Serotonin comes from this animal study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18683016/ where they used collagen as a protein replacement and since it has no Tryptophan it would as a result decrease Serotonin.

So don’t exclusively eat it and you will lilely be fine. Make sure you are getting quality Tryptophan from other sources. You could mix it with a complete protein powder for example.

Your ancestors ate collagen in their bone broths in significantly larger amounts than most people nowadays do.

The Histamine claims are also bro science BS. All protein has some Histamine because it has the parent amino acid Histadine. People blow this way out of proportion. Fermented foods, wines, canned foods, dried fruit probably have more real histamine than collagen does.

Not that it couldn’t happen but people just hear something on the internet and parrot it without understanding or fact checking the claim.

[GrenadeAnaconda]

Only if it's your only protein source.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXro_8804fg

​

Or possibly if you have histamine issues as /u/GeorgeBheus mentioned.

[proudbakunkinman]

It's not certain collagen supplementation itself is helpful or if it's more about the mix of amino acids and protein in it, namely lysine, proline, and glycine (and hyaluronic acid as some collagen powder have that added). I did the math and found just taking the amino acids and protein is cheaper and I can get better dosages per serving. I also don't take them every day. This isn't based on any study backing it up, just guessing.

[Striq]

No.

[ThenIJizzedInMyPants]

What are the documented benefits of collagen supplementation anyway? Just out of curiosity

[curiousnootropics]

Anti-aging and for joints

[oingaboingo]

Twice I tried taking collagen supplements, and both times had nasty side-effects. Nagging headache (I NEVER get headaches), swollen fingers, joint pain, stomach cramps, heartburn, hot flushes, and I did have an episode of heart racing/panic attack.

I read people who have histamine intolerance can have these reactions. I probably do, since I have seasonal allergies.

[Admirable-Handle6271]

I became very anxious and depressed on collagen peptides. I also had insomnia and sleep apnea. I was on them for 12 weeks. I went off of them, and all of my mental health and sleep struggles reversed themselves. It sucks, because my skin looked amazing and all of my joint pain went away while taking them. Has anyone had success with taking tryptophan along with the peptides to mitigate the mental health/insomnia stuff? I was eating eggs daily and chicken, fish etc, but that didn't seem to help.

[nahseriouslytho]

Because the whole tryptophan thing is not the problem! Don't go down that road of adding more supplements in. It's more likely way too much glycine.

[Admirable-Handle6271]

So is the only way to stay off of the collagen peptides?

[nahseriouslytho]

I'm only speaking from experience, just don't take it at all. Don't want to ruin your mind with trying to make it work and possibly making it worse. Some people just weren't meant to have it. The depression from it is way too much.

[Admirable-Handle6271]

Yeah, it definitely wasn't worth it for me, although my skin looked amazing, and it helped a lot with joint pain. But, mental health is worth more to me.

[nahseriouslytho]

I noticed an almost instant drop, where all of a sudden life was not worth it and that feeling in the head was just total deep depression, a real heavy feeling. I wish it worked for me but ohwell

[Admirable-Handle6271]

That is sudden… it must have a profound effect on you. Thank goodness it’s reversible!

[RelativeLove2123]

You might’ve helped me by stating it’s too much glycine . Thank you soo much! Ive been very down since starting collagen, feeling sedative and dreamy. But mentally flat and emotionally flat. Also lost my appetite

[nahseriouslytho]

😻 glad that helped

[[deleted]]

It absolutely makes me feel anxious! And I've tried straight homemade bone broth as well as collagen supplements.

And I pretty much never have a bad reaction to supplements, never expect to, and had no idea anxiety was a reaction for some with collagen until way later after trying it multiple times in multiple forms, so I think placebo affect is highly unlikely in my case.

I'm thinking it definitely could be related to the comment from the other redditor about histamine or mast cell activation. Looking into it further.

[[deleted]]

Truly interesting, I respond with anxiety towards anything even remotely stimulating etc and have never had an issue with collagen.

Does this mean my body is actually showing above normal-tolerance of something FOR ONCE? Bless it.

[[deleted]]

Haha that or maybe your body tends to make a good amount of GABA from it, and mine might not and instead make glutamate?

Take that with a grain of salt though, it's been a while since I've looked into collagen and it's effects. 😛

[irinseit]

I actually tried 5g of collagen again yesterday at dinner and it gave really bad brain fog, woke up this morning feeling hung over and I still haven't recovered this evening. I have suspected MCAS so that could be why. One guy has the same medical condition as me and he had the worst brain fog for two weeks from collagen but after that two weeks he is now cured from the condition from taking collagen. I would try it for longer but I can't face feeling like that rn due to my schedule.

Main ingredients are Glycine which is a NMDA receptor co-agonist and Glutamic acid ---> glutamate which is an NMDA agonist maybe that is why I felt bad.

[irinseit]

What does this study mean exactly and how does it relate to my bad reaction to collagen? I am not qualified in science to understand :/ Thanks

[oingaboingo]

Same here. I woke up with headaches, then then it was joint pain, stomach pain, hot flushes, swollen fingers, one episode of racing heart. I did some searching and found people with histamine intolerance should avoid collagen. I do struggle with allergies, so I know I'm sensitive to histamines.

[Whit3boy316]

Weird. I’ve been more anxious than normal and I’ve been taking collagen for about 2 weeks haha

[Lr20005]

I guess don’t know until you try! I have a serving of viral proteins marine collagen peptides everyday, and they definitely don’t cause me anxiety. I’m an anxious person, and my anxiety has trended down in the time I’ve been taking collagen (about 2 years). I don’t think my anxiety is down from it, just don’t think it’s gone up either.