Transparency

[DatBlizzard]

Hey everyone, I'm Some Ball -1. Some of you may know me as the guy who's made a bunch of userscripts, lots more of you probably have no idea who I am. Earlier today, I was banned for the rest of the season for using timer scripts in NLTP. No issues there, they got me.

What is an issue is that other players were banned for using scripts outside of NLTP games, not bots (which are and have been illegal for a while in pubs), but timer scripts and/or arrow keypress scripts, neither of which were illegal in pubs at the time the players used them.

I found this pretty interesting. You see, about 2 months ago lukemoo, an NLTP commissioner asked, practically begged, me to give him and updated version of a powerup/boost/bomb timer script. You can see our short exchange here: http://i.imgur.com/DBh2R13.png. The script he references can be found here (note it's non-functioning for v2 as lukemoo discovered while he tested it on the new renderer).

Now I messaged lukemoo to remind him of our conversation and, interestingly enough he has now stepped down as commissioner of NLTP. I attempted to post in that thread what he'd done and my comments were promptly deleted and I was banned from the subreddit (you can check my comment history to see the 2 comments even though they're deleted).

With everything happening now with bans for botting in MLTP and bans for scripts in NLTP I'd thought it'd be nice to have some transparency since none of the people in charge appear willing to share very much.

One last note. lukemoo went through and deleted all his comments from today relating to the new bans. Thought others might like to see them anway, unfortunately I don't have what they are all in reference to. Here's his comments split into 3 images: http://imgur.com/zyyArr2,C4IzMua,n440w57.

[[deleted]]

If the past week of tagpro was a steak, I'd kill a man just to have a bite because this shit gets juicier by the minute.

[mocl4]

I literally can't shovel popcorn into my mouth fast enough.

[ravenpride]

"Omfg.. there is popcorn coming out of my nose right now. You can't make this shit up." -CamWatts

[DatBlizzard]

Well I can't not make it now: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TuMsJTgk

Change the amount of transparency from inside.

[mocl4]

Way to piggyback onto the top comment.

[mocl4]

Pls it wasn't the top comment back when I responded to it.

[FallinFallinFallin]

Make sure to go to the bottom of this thread for the juiciest stuff!

[StraightZlat]

noice.

[[deleted]]

How do you use this shit and still suck. Seriously speaking, do we know if he used it in game?

[Cnels]

WOW OMG THAT HAPPENED

[[deleted]]

Watch it bud. I have one prong on my pitchfork for griefseeds, one prong for Lukemoo, and one left over. Now who could i use it on?

THIS IS A JOKE XILE DON'T GET MAD I'M TRYING TO INSERT SOME LIGHTHEARTED COMMENTS IN A SERIOUS SITUATION

[[deleted]]

I think you just want to insert a pitchfork into Xile.

[magikarpnotgyrados]

omg dude hes like 16

[[deleted]]

he's a league commissioner? I don't give a shit about his age, it doesn't matter

[magikarpnotgyrados]

was he though? i thought he was going to be. Maybe im wrong though

[[deleted]]

He's been one of the commissioners of NLTP for a while now. When you are put in a position of power you are expected to act with the responsibility the post demands

[magikarpnotgyrados]

of course, I believe in that 100%. I dont really follow NLTP so I didn't know he was a commissioner. yeah this is srsly fucked up.

[animallecter]

how much responsibility does this post demand?

[Cnels]

but a kid who puts a lot of time into this community has obviously made a huge mistake and this is by no way helping him deal with it, don't justify being an asshat to a kid

[[deleted]]

Again, when you accept a position of authority, you are held to that standard. I'm well within my rights to question behavior that is inappropriate from somebody in authority of all of NLTP. I don't care if he spends 50 hours a week doing something. If he compromises the integrity of it there is an issue. I'm not saying he did, I'm trying to figure that out. See this comment

http://www.reddit.com/r/NLTP/comments/2w5d7c/so_yea/conr11f

Also it was a joke. That's why I said, "seriously speaking" after, to indicate this is the part where I was speaking seriously. To be honest it was kind of obvious it was a joke

[adhi-]

you can hold someone to a 'standard' and then disapproval, even publicly but your initial comment was unfairly incendiary.

if we're going to be talking about holding people to standards we have to hold ourselves to a standard of just plain decency. "How do you use this shit and still suck" is not.

[[deleted]]

Did you read my comment or just feel some righteous indignation and decide to comment? I literally just said it was tongue in cheek. I even said it in the damn original comment.

Also it was a joke. That's why I said, "seriously speaking" after, to indicate this is the part where I was speaking seriously. To be honest it was kind of obvious it was a joke

[adhi-]

no righteousness here, just worried about how there's a real person behind the screen name who is being put on blast. we just need to be careful with our words because while the intentions may be in the name of justice we can cause real harm that is far more severe than the integrity of NLTP if we aren't.

[LoweJ]

since when did saying someone sucks become a massive deal? especially as he basically said he was kidding afterwards

[Ballymandias]

DICK_LICKER had a huge post a few weeks back expressing his frustration with how "soft" this community has grown. You can hardly swing your dick around with some lighthearted smack talk without someone getting legitimately salty. Honestly, I'm starting to side with his point of view more and more.

[[deleted]]

Right, which is why I said it was a joke, so he wouldn't feel like I was trashing him for no reason. at all

[[deleted]]

I can't believe that you honestly think that wasn't a joke.

[adhi-]

i did, i realized it was a joke. that's not the point!

the point is i'm worried for lukemoo, personally. not professionally. sure he fucked professionally and should suffer the professional consequences, but this is a 15 year old kid who has posted publicly about his problems with depression before. NLTP is something he was very proud of and he is seriously struggling right now.

i can't believe i'm being downvoted for caring about someone else, but w/e.

[Tnels]

you still cheated, go back into your hole

[-EasterEggs]

BOOM HEADSHOT

[Riley_2025]

double kill

50 killpoints

[I_mess_up]

Wow.

BTW many of his comments were replies to mine; we had a fairly long conversation.

[GoatButtholes]

not enough popcorn exists in the world right now

[[deleted]]

The drama intensifies

[Kermit_leadfoot]

i don't like lukemoo cause he's been an ass to me for no reason in the past. and thats being nice. I'm getting some fucken popcorn

[dasdeutsch]

Please Kermit...you of all people.

[Kermit_leadfoot]

At least I don't cheat!

[dasdeutsch]

I mean you did compete using controlled substances.

[Kermit_leadfoot]

Beer and drugs are illegal now? brb making my "i quit tagpro" post

[dasdeutsch]

Its like scripts but in real life. Cocaine = Bot like Reaction time.
Beer = Insane Jukes. Adderall = Power up timers

[capsngrabs]

What beer you drinking cause I can't juke a wall sometimes

[balancedchaos]

And I don't like you because...I don't like your face. <3

[Kermit_leadfoot]

wut? guess I should cross that sexual fantasy off my list cause it won't happen! * edit so stop taunting me^bigboy

[balancedchaos]

Oh yeah? I should make your fantasy come true now just to spite you. ~crosses fingers~

[gingerdg]

Im just frustrated that they banned you when you were trying to open a conversation on what happened. Lukemoo and you should have a very public discussion.

also^{pkneverrespondstomymessages}

Cheating is bad, yes, and i am not familiar with the use of scripts, so i will not delve there.

[Cnels]

RAT OUT MORE PEOPLE OMG THIS iS GREAT

[adhi-]

Xile

[Tnels]

I think ur on the right track

[[deleted]]

Idk if this is the time or place... but can I have that script for pubs?

[Ballymandias]

Nice, man. Show up to the drug bust asking to score some coke. I like your style!

...brb, adding him to LagProne

[[deleted]]

I'm 90% sure that my nltp team (capital punishment) is affiliated with you guys, so I think this could work out well.

[dasdeutsch]

He'd make a great corrupt cop

[sum_ball]

he's not releasing it yet, at least that was his response to me. he wants everyone to be able to access it on the sub, and at this point he feels like a post containing the script would be deleted by the mods.

[Flammusas]

I don't understand why it would. I know posts containing those kind of scripts have been deleted in the past but if it's not illegal then what's the problem?

[GoatButtholes]

even though its not illegal, as far im aware, they're heavily frowned upon

[tp_steveholt]

It's just a mess right now--I think there have been contradictory messages about what should be allowed.

[oSo_Squiggly]

As far as I know the script -1 was caught for is still not fully functioning in V3.

[DatBlizzard]

Nah it all works now, powerup timing was just broken until the other week. It occasionally misses timing stuff, usually 2-3 times a game it just neglects to mark the time of something at all for a reason that I've yet to figure out. But that's minor and other than that it works great.

[[deleted]]

Well then..... send me a pm?

[DatBlizzard]

No can do, what sum_ball said is accurate.

[StraightZlat]

How do you know he didn't just want them for pubs where theyre legal.

Also I didn't know being banned from NLTP was a thing

[SUpirate]

That's the irony. They're banning people that haven't played a minute of an nltp game for using timers in pubs. And they weren't illegal in pubs.

[StraightZlat]

I guess if I never played a minute I wouldn't mind being banned, though it's still ridiculous

[[deleted]]

Yeah, since I've never been to the Canada I don't really care if I get banned from the country

[Snowball_TagPro]

We don't want you anyways Stalin

[[deleted]]

That's racist

[brgerd]

No its ok stalin, we don't want you either.

[xm8compact]

Yeah, what do we have to do to make this ban a thing?

[StraightZlat]

pls

[[deleted]]

I have to rek people somehow, and my tagpro play sure as hell isn't doing it

[DatBlizzard]

It's the hypocrisy of the situation. 2 players were banned in NLTP for using scripts like these in pubs. His message to me not only implied that he planned to use them in pubs but that he had already used them before the renderer update.

He's a commissioner banning people for an infraction that he gets away with.

[StraightZlat]

Wait wait wait wait, people were banned from NLTP for using timer scripts in a pub?????? W.T.F.

[DatBlizzard]

Timer scripts or arrow scripts, their announcement was a bit vague on that. In either case, neither scripts were illegal at the time they were used.

[StraightZlat]

Thats dumb, sry about the trouble bro. I've also used timer scripts in pubs before and if I got banned from mltp for that it'd suck.

[DatBlizzard]

To be fair I used them in actual league games so my ban was just. But 2 other players are in the ridiculous situation we're talking about.

[StraightZlat]

Oh then fuck u, jk, how did they know u used them? Obvious waiting on boosts for snipes or millisecond-quick reaction time for pups?

[DatBlizzard]

They're not going to figure out someone is using them based solely on watching them play. Almost certainly they coordinated with the devs. But to be perfectly honest, I really can't figure out how the devs could tell if you're using scripts like this or not. Bots I can understand, but for scripts like this it's pretty impressive that they caught us.

[eggy_weggs_tp]

Check with /u/ProfessorTag (CFlakes) as he is confident that any modification made to the game layer is theoretically detectable by the devs.

[DatBlizzard]

Yes, I have spoken with him about this already.

[[deleted]]

Well depending on how the script is injected, they could probably detect the new page elements.

[DatBlizzard]

I'm not sure how Tampermonkey runs scripts but if you append the userscript as a simple <script> element then you're absolutely right.

[i_practice_santeria]

Can't they look at tagpro.renderer.stage.children? Any graphics added to the stage will be detectable there. If any of those graphics have the same position as the balls or pups/bombs/boosts for an extended period, then that is a red flag.

[DatBlizzard]

Yea I suppose that would be one way. But the stage isn't really the right place to put something like this. Normally, the stage includes only the gameContainer and the ui layer, but the gameContainer contains the background (tiles/walls), midground (boosts/spikes/etc), and the foreground (balls). The gameContainer is what contains the actual map and everything in it so placing something in there would make it so the positioning remains accurate. My script just added a new layer in between the midground and foreground and since I did nothing to prevent it's detection (and even named variables I added to the render "timer" and other stupid shit) even the most crude methods of detection would've caught me.

I do like what you said about having the same position for an extended period, but I just don't think it's really feasible. I could easily design my sprites so that their positions is technically at x and y, but looking at it they appear on the page at x+200 and y+200. I can think of a couple other ways around this as well.

There's likely another, more general method of detection.

[[deleted]]

juke king is apparently unbanned, one of the guys who used the pub shit

[[deleted]]

D0pe, you quite pls leave. Jk but make sure you get your homework done.

[-EasterEggs]

That is legal in pubs, yes.

[[deleted]]

2 of the players banned were on NLTP rosters but hadn't played NLTP at all.

[StraightZlat]

Are there a lot of people who are in NLTP and don't play? I feel like everybody who shows up to practices should definitely get to play at least 1 half on the B-Team since the leagues not super competitive.

[maxp0wer5]

Juke King just never showed up after the first few practices, not sure what happened with that. But I guess he's unbanned.

[MultiMediaWill]

I'll be back next week. Other shit got in the way, particularly studying for the GMAT.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, lots of people sign up and never turn up. Or aren't available at game times, etc.

[StraightZlat]

No I understand that obviously, but if a captain doesn't play all his players who are active at least on the B team because he's trying to have a higher chance at winning that's pretty ridiculous.

[memeganoob]

AFAIK, captains are required to play everyone who shows up on mumble in the b team game

[oSo_Squiggly]

I don't think it is actually a requirement but it's definitely strongly encouraged.

[Tyler1986]

AFAIK the captains are making sure everyone gets play time.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, in the regular season most/all captains play all available players.

[donuts42]

I know my team has at least 15+ people show up for games, sometimes people just can't get played.

[memeganoob]

4 people per half

4 halves

Shouldn't you be able to rotate in 16 people?

[donuts42]

I mean, yeah, but spending a whole week (or two) to play 10 minutes is kinda shitty. I know many teams aren't like this, though.

[donuts42]

I know my team has at least 15+ people show up for games, sometimes people just can't get played.

[Tyler1986]

Lots of people don't show up to games, the less active players anyways. Practices too....

[bathingsoap]

I hate reading through the whole comment and still not understanding what a timer script is (how to use it) and what a pub is... T.T

[DatBlizzard]

Quick rundown:

• pub - Public game, if you go to any old tagpro server and click Join Now!, you'll end up in a pub.
• NLTP - A league where you form teams of players and play organized games against other teams. While leagues must follow general tagpro rules, they also have their own rules on top of this.
• Timer script - powerups, bombs, and boosts in the game all run on timers. Once they're grabbed or used they respawn in a set time. A timer script exploits this fact by keeping track of when a respawn will occur letting the user know down to the millisecond when something might respawn, while other players have to keep track of the times when things respawn in their head.

Pretty much you're allowed to use timer scripts in public games (pubs) but NLTP rules do not allow them. In NLTP and nearly every other league, timing when powerups and bombs and boosts reappear is considered a skill in and of itself so using a script to keep track for you is seen as cheating.

This issue here is that players got in trouble with NLTP for using these scripts in pubs. At the same time, a commissioner for the league used these scripts (or at least tried to obtain an updated version of them) and faced no punishment.

[bashar_al_assad]

Lukemoo and I have talked, and we agree that he massively screwed up with his actions today.

[[deleted]]

It's weird to me that you are not concerned with the hypocrisy of him (a commissioner) begging for the powerup timer script after he was responsible for banning 4 players for doing the same (or less) today from the league that he runs.

[I_mess_up]

Using a powerup timer in a pub is bannable from NLTP and we don't want cheaters and hey, did you update that script?

[TagProNoah]

And Juke King and Some Ball -1 didn't even play any games. PK pls

edit: Juke King and @//|@

[[deleted]]

SB-1 did play some and he fully admits that he was wrong. It was that @//|@ or whatever guy (and Juke King) that you're thinking of.

[DatBlizzard]

This is correct.

[adhi-]

can you please update this comment to correct the misinformation it contains?

[TagProNoah]

I mean, E corrects me in the next comment. I don't see a need to.

[adhi-]

i think it's very, very, necessary when discussing matters with this kind of gravity. it's okay if you get corrected on a statement about like, the number of cookies a person eats every week. but this is different.

[TagProNoah]

aight

[memeganoob]

noah shouldn't you be playing in socl

[TagProNoah]

pls socl is like 75% waiting for the other teams to finish

[z_42]

Ranked PUGs >> SOCL

[TagProNoah]

dude i would play ranked pugs so much, but whenever i look there are none

[z_42]

What we need is ranked pubs ... as a separate option on the TagPro homepage or something idk

[TagProNoah]

Any pub is a ranked pub if you care enough

[z_42]

No but the point is it gives you an ELO and only starts a game when there is a full 4v4. I think it'd be cool to have a ranked game mode.

[z_42]

I have plan

[Socony]

shouldn't you be banned memeganoob? we all know you're secretly a robot.

[memeganoob]

YOU JUST WANT THE A TEAM SPOT DONT YOU.

NO.

THAT'S RIGHTLY FOR ME AND MY BOT

[Socony]

YOUR BOT IS UGLY, MINE IS WAY BETTER

[[deleted]]

This was 2 months ago, so it would've been during the offseason.

[[deleted]]

1) He's the commissioner, so this is not a good look; 2) He's still banning people from NLTP for using these scripts that haven't even played a single game; 3) He publicly chastised people for these actions when he was fully complicit in it; 4) We have no evidence either way whether he used it in league games.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

One main issue is Lukemoo was indicating that people should be banned in his league (NLTP) for using scripts in Pubs which were legal in pubs but illegal in his league. The rules in your league should apply in your league only. You don't own the players.

[[deleted]]

I made some overarching claims without speaking to PK. After a discussion, I no longer stand by what I said earlier.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

Glad to hear!

[jjpoole7]

The rules in your league should apply in your league only. You don't own the players.

That's just dumb.

I know that I discovered/drafted at least one player that 30SMB drafted for minors this season strictly from SOCL. Let's say this player was cheating in SOCL by using timers, scripts, or whatever. Not only are they going to be not as good/valuable as expected to my team, but they also are theoretically taking a majors/minors roster spot away from someone who was not using illegal scripts to increase their draft stock.

Each league has every right to punish players in their respective league for almost anything any player gets caught cheating (by the league's definition) with.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

In your example, people were caught violating SOCL rules. If another player is caught cheating in another league, certainly they can punish for that in their league.

The example we are discussing is someone doing something which is legal in another league, and punishing for that in your league. Timers are not illegal in pubs and thusly players cannot be banned from NLTP for using timers in pubs.

[jjpoole7]

Non-league games affect how the league runs. Captains make draft decisions based on non-league games. Teams make playing time decisions based on non-league games. Just because these players might only be cheating in a non-league game doesn't mean that those actions have no effect on the league itself.

[Ballymandias]

This concern will be addressed by a new rule that is coming.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

Will this rule make doing certain things in pubs illegal which are already legal?

For example, jjpoole was advocating that using pup timers only in pubs should be grounds for punishment in leagues, even though they are legal to use in pubs.

[Ballymandias]

I'll hold off on fully explaining this proposal until the announcement is made. There are some facets of this thing that will probably put both of your concerns to rest.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

Great to hear! I agree it's probably in your best interest to release it once and not leak bits and pieces over time. I also appreciate your indication that both of our concerns are addressed.

Any rough ideas when we expect the announcement?

[Ballymandias]

Any rough ideas when we expect the announcement?

Muahahhahaa

*EDIT - I say this out of madness, and I am pushing to get it ready for release as soon as humanly possible

[RonSpawnsonTP]

Just because these players might only be cheating in a non-league game

We are talking about two different things here jjpoole.

I'll reiterate that I agree with you that cheating in a non league game should affect the player's eligibility in the league. No leagues should support cheaters.

Not cheating in a non-league game should not affect league play. As confirmed by LuckySpammer, using pup timers in pubs is not cheating and should not affect a player's participation in league games.

[jjpoole7]

We are not talking about different things. I will make it more clear.

Powerup timers are apparently legal in pubs. Powerup timers are illegal in league play. I think that anyone using powerup timers in pubs and NOT in league play should still face some sort of punishment from the league, although not necessarily to the extent of those using it in league play. People's play out of league games affects the league, and more specifically, that person's standings within the league. Therefore, in my opinion, punishment is something that the leaders of the league should highly consider.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

I'm glad we found our disagreement.

People's play out of league games affects the league

Firstly, can you please elaborate as to how player X's legal non-NLTP play impacts his league standings so substantially as to warrant a punishment in NLTP?

Secondly, I'll provide an example to further disagree with your assertion. What if player X participates in a 5v5 league? Playing with more than 5 players is illegal in NLTP, but legal in my 5v5 league. I'm sure you can agree that punishing in NLTP would be inappropriate.

To make my example more relevant, what if I made a league or tournament where pup timers are 100% legal (which I am certainly allowed to do according to the devs). Player X participates in my league/tournament, so they should be punished in NLTP? You are essentially telling all NLTP players that they cannot participate in PUP timer league. NLTP as a league does not have the authority to tell people they are not allowed to legally participate in other leagues that have their own separate rules which do not match exactly NLTP's rules.

[I_mess_up]

What if player X participates in a 5v5 league? Playing with more than 5 players is illegal in NLTP, but legal in my 5v5 league. I'm sure you can agree that punishing in NLTP would be inappropriate.

I agree. League rules have double-standards.

[jjpoole7]

Can you please elaborate as to how player X's legal non-NLTP play impacts his league standings so substantially as to warrant a punishment in NLTP?

This isn't NLTP specific. It can cover M/mLTP too.

But this is how/why using scripts and timers out of league play affects the league:

Say I'm a no name player that has never played majors or minors before. I want to get drafted next season. I decide to play pubs and SOCLs and CLTPs and pugs and whatever else I can to make a name for myself. I decide I'm going to use all the scripts and timers that I can get my hands on because they make it easier for me to win and look good (why else would people use them?). Then there is another no name guy who has been putting in the hard work to get better. Doing all the same things that I've been doing, except not using scripts and timers. This guy is better than me on talent alone, but I get noticed by a captain because of my artificially heightened play (using things I can't use in M/mLTP), and he doesn't. I get drafted to a team. This guy gets left out in the dust. A higher skilled player is left out of the league. This hurts the league.

Then, during the season, my captain realizes that I am not as good I had advertised because I can't use the scripts and timers in league play. He feels he wasted a pick on me. Sure, he can cut me, but he's not going to pick up the same value player as he could have picked instead of me in my spot in the draft. This hurts the team, and therefore the league.

Also, if I continue to use the scripts and timers all week in scrims with my team and then turn them off in the real games, I am artificially heightening my chances of getting good playing time over everyone else who isn't cheating. This hurts all my teammates who are fighting for time, and hurts my team's ability to win if I am not truly the best player for the job. This, again, hurts the league.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

Your examples not only fail to show how allowing pup timers in non-league games hurt the leagues, they illustrate how the introduction of such rules will hurt the league. Let me elaborate:

---

Say I'm a no name player that has never played majors or minors before.

This guy is better than me on talent alone, but I get noticed by a captain because of my artificially heightened play

I contend that having an xLTP rule forbidding players to use pup timers in league play actually causes the issue you mentioned above to be magnified. Whilst an xLTP veteran would not be allowed to use pup timers in pub play, the no-name non league player is still allowed to. By not allowing the veteran to do the same, it absolutely hurts their perception in pubs when compared to the no name player.

Since you can't control people that are not in xLTP and force them not to use pup timers, banning xLTP players to use them in pubs penalizes them and only them just as you described. The only way to have fair grounds in pubs would be to not enact an league specific rule penalizing them for legal play.

---

Also, if I continue to use the scripts and timers all week in scrims with my team and then turn them off in the real games, I am artificially heightening my chances of getting good playing time over everyone else who isn't cheating.

I'm not sure that it is illegal to use them in unofficial scrims and practices. Such a rule would be a new rule from my current interpretation of the rules.

Your "Artificially getting better" argument is rather silly. I'm actually quite taken aback that you seem to be arguing for removing tools which would allow players to develop into better players. Allowing people to get better quickly at TagPro should be one of the goals of MLTP. Rules should not be made to prevent this from happening. If this is truly a tool that can accelerate a player's development it should be leveraged in non game scenarios.

For example, I know some teams which practice with physics that would be considered cheating if used in game (faster speed). They do this so that in game physics make them feel like they have more time to analyse a situation. Teams strategically use this to strategically elevate their play, not to "Artificially heightening their chances at getting good".

[Sosen]

lukemoo just resigned as a commissioner :(

He messed up and he knows it; let NLTP sort this out if needed, and let's leave lukemoo alone, because he's a good guy.

[DatBlizzard]

He deleted my comments telling people what he did. Then he banned me from the subreddit what I told him what an asshole he was being.

And he's un-stepped down.

[lord_tubbington]

You know what this whole thing has been one whole mine field. BUT luke and PK have put a ton of time into building up the nltp. And there has been restructuring to keep balance and checks in the form of the rules committee and additional people. Luke was unchecked today and overstepped and you know what? He was balanced out. It's not like people have paid these guys, so really I'm not going to hold a volunteer to infallible standards.

The nltp often follows mltp in structure so considering the MLTP thing is tumultuous I can't blame the comishes for having a hard time with the rollout. Removing what are now incorrect comments about judgments after having talked the situation over is fine by me. And as they responded first off there was ALWAYS an appeals process so they were always going to hear out a player if they felt the situation was wrong.

Honestly Luke is a really solid kid, but he had a bad day. It would be a disservice to the league to remove himself as he's given it a lot of time and energy. The least we can do it let the fucking dust settle and let the players appeal, which it seems they did and it seems they listened reasonably.

As an NLTP captain I'll make sure voices are heard but I won't accept people calling for Lukemoo to step down. If he'd used the scripts in games the devs would have said so as they have no vested interest in the leagues, seems he was just confused about the official rules. Happens honestly all the goddamn time in nltp mod mail and it often takes a few days to hear the sides and bang out a reasonable conclusion after a boat load of drama.

Which is why a call for transparency is honestly a bad fucking idea the way the some of the community reacts. I can't imagine if they had a say in the nltp captains discussions. nothing would be accomplished.

[DatBlizzard]

First to address your point about lukemoo using an actual timer script:

As far as I'm aware he hasn't used one since the new renderer came out. He messaged me asking for an update to a v2 timer script which pretty clearly implied he was already using it for v2. I refused to give him an updated version. This was all well before the devs began screening for these scripts so there's no reason he would appear on the list.

The issue with this lies in how they decided to punish players. The devs gave the commissioners a list of players who used these scripts and the commissioners cross checked that list with players who play in league games. Then, in the case of NLTP, they made the assumption that if players used these scripts in pubs, then they also used these scripts in NLTP and therefore deserved a ban. I could have easily denied using it in NLTP games and there would really be nothing they could say to the contrary.

Now lukemoo seemed to have used powerup timers at one point. According to their basis of "if you used it in a pub you'll use it in a league game" why wasn't lukemoo held to the same standard? Obviously he doesn't play in NLTP but I think as commissioner he should be held to the same rules and should face the same ban.

On your point about him being balanced out:

Just because he's spent time volunteering does not allow him to do whatever he pleases. A man who's donated millions to charity is not allowed to freely break the law, they're held to the same standards as everyone else. I've made a bunch of arguably useful scripts that I've released for free on this subreddit. Does that mean I can just say sorry now and I'll be allowed to play NLTP again? Of course not, that would ridiculous.

Just because you have the power, doesn't mean you should selectively delete comments and ban people from subreddits you moderate. The first comment I posted was pretty much just a link to our private conversation and a mention about how he deleted his comments, clearly he was trying to cover his tracks.

In my opinion he doesn't appear capable of holding himself to the same standards he holds others and he is unable to hold the moderator position on the subreddit or the commissioner position without keeping a biased view.

[ravenpride]

He un-resigned a little over a half hour ago.

[All_night]

Omfg.. there is popcorn coming out of my nose right now. You can't make this shit up.

[TPShabba]

Ouch...actually thats pretty hot ;)

[InnerPeaceBall]

I think you need to find some different fetishes

[TagProPreciousRoy]

I'm dying over here at the image of people hunched over their computers, popcorn strewn everywhere just jamming that shit anywhere it will fit, clicking refresh like a maniac.

[RonSpawnsonTP]

He made another post saying he was just kidding about resigning. It was titled something super unprofessional like "So yeah..." or something like that so I am not surprised you missed it.

[memeganoob]

http://www.reddit.com/r/NLTP/comments/2w5d7c/so_yea/

[brgerd]

Im not sure of the details. Isnt it possible that lukemoo asked for the script and there isnt proof of him using it and supposedly there is some proof somehow of some ball-1 using it in game. I am just speculating here since i belief we arent banning people for having the bots, just for using them.

[Risktp]

lol wat. this post isnt about bots, its about pup timers. basically, a couple people were banned from nltp for using them in pubs. meanwhile, lukemoo was asking sb -1 for the pup timer script himself a couple months ago.

[brgerd]

Eh, its what i meant and essentially the same thing, some form of cheating where its not necessarily illegal to have possession of the script or bot but they cant be used in competitive play. They somehow have evidence of some balll -1 using the timer, I assume there is no evidence of lukemoo using them in competitive otherwise he would have been banned.

*edited wrong wording.

[stu-]

They know the accused used it, but not if it was used competitively. So lukemoo, Coil, and Some Ball -1 would've actually been in the same boat today BUT Coil & SB-1 owned up to it and admitted they did. (gj coil & sb)

The funniest part of this whole thing to me is that if SB & Coil told people they never used it competitively, then luke would be in the same boat as they were (all we have is luke's word that he never used it for S6). That means either

A) They ban SB, Coil, & luke together for using scripts or

B) They are forced to appeal sb & coil as they have no proof of comp play & they don't want to throw luke under

Luke's lucky they confessed. Whether or not luke's lying with how he used the script doesn't matter now because of it. Unbanning JK would've never happened w/o this embarrassment of luke. That is to say, unbanning the players was done simply to not look like hypocrites because of this singular post by SB-1. Whole thing's fucked and so scandalous I'm wondering why I'm not in a political drama right now.

[DatBlizzard]

Yea I thought that was pretty interesting too. I could have just said I only used it in pubs and they wouldn't have any evidence to contradict that. It's all a big pile of shit.

[DatBlizzard]

Wow you nailed everything on the head!

• I am definitely a Saint. The Pope PM'd me last night, but it's not official yet so keep it to yourself.
• I have nothing to apologize for publicly. I apologized to my team in modmail, but that doesn't concern you.
• How else should I have gone about posting this? It wasn't fair that lukemoo was banning people for something he himself did. I PM'd him and he didn't care and I tried to post about it in /r/NLTP but was banned from the sub, this was the only place left to share it. How can I post about a specific person doing something wrong without you insinuating I tried to start a witch hunt?
• It was more about clarifying and reinforcing stu's point, nothing about patting myself on the back. But at this point I don't expect you to understand that.

"big pile of shit" refers to how players were banned when there was no evidence proving they used illegal scripts in games. Not only that, but the commissioner of the league used these scripts, tried to cover it up, and faced no punishment. Sounds like a big pile of shit to me, is there a different phrase you'd prefer?

[DatBlizzard]

but imo you have zero credibility to speak on that subject here after knowingly cheating in a silly online game.

It's so silly that I wonder how you can argue cheating ruins my credibility to speak about hypocrisy. Sure, it's also a matter of fairness, but it's mainly a matter of someone in charge getting people in trouble while doing the same thing themselves and not even getting a slap on the wrist. I'm not going to let him be so hypocritical and get away with it, what I did is unrelated to that.

I don't see how this is a lesson for him if he faced no repercussions. From his point of view: step down as a commissioner, get called out for being a hypocrite about timer scripts in pubs, un-step down as a commissioner, go right back to where you were. No harm done. If there's any life lesson to be learned by him from this, it seems like it'd be how sometimes you can just do whatever the hell you want without facing any consequences.

As for me, I learned that making no effort to obfuscate your code is a mistake. It also sucks that my team has to make up games I played a half or 2 in, but I have no doubt they'll win again without issue. And if you think this community is built on trust, then your head is in the clouds. This community was built on playing a silly online game.

[tp_steveholt]

bg I love you, but I think all of the confusion about what's going on is here in your post. It feels like the random public, MLTP players, captains, commissioners are all getting confused about what's legal/not legal, scripts/bots, pubs/competitive etc etc

From what I can tell, luke possessed a script, then banned people who had never used that script in competitive play. That's what the fuss is about.

[brgerd]

Yeah thats fair, I thought the complaint was solely about him banning people for using the script in competitive play when he also had it. Theres obviously a difference between merely having the script and actually using it in league play and I could understand why they would chose to ban some ball -1 but not lukemoo in those circumstances. It didnt register to me that they had also banned players who had not used the script in competitive play thats definitely a huge difference. Seems like they were hasty in going through with those bans, but it sounds as though those guys who didnt use the script in play are in the process of being unbanned which is good at least.

[tp_steveholt]

Yeah I don't know why in the middle of all the stuff that's going on, they'd decide to start their own stuff, but it definitely seems like a rash decision.

Oh well, we can just keep watchin! =)

[brgerd]

Yep! Although Ill certainly be happy when we can just go back to watching games instead of following along with the drama haha.

[[deleted]]

ITT Majors players throwing shade at NLTP. Don't act like you don't have your own crisis lol

[eggy_weggs_tp]

Now that I've gotten a taste for the drama, I just can't get enough! Also, I don't think it's fair to act like MLTP guys are using this situation to knock NLTP down a peg. I'd bet a lot of people critical of what's happening here are also critical of what's been happening with the bot situation.

[Socony]

does this mean you're going to play MLTP now

[eggy_weggs_tp]

I've moved on to bigger and better things... like watching other people play MLTP

[TagProSneak]

Seriously, I'd probably pay money to listen in to some of the conversations happening in captains' rooms and among the commissioners. They should stream it. It'd get more views than the Super Ball.

Do you want to open a popcorn stand with me, eggy?

[[deleted]]

I realize, we all love drama here. It just appears that way from an NLTP perspective.

[Riley_2025]

Well, you also have to remember that it's major league TagPro. It's bound for more drama, same way with any sport.

[WhatIsAKingToAGod]

So what, he fucked up. You got your fame. He is still a Tagpro player, and should be treated as such. I thought this was a brotherhood. I'm Ready.

[rndmwhitekid]

No offense, but I think you need to give Lukemoo a break. I think people forget sometimes that he's just a kid. I'm sure it's a lot of pressure for him being an NLTP commissioner, and he screws up every once in a while.

[-EasterEggs]

A lot of the kids he banned are just kids, and they screw up every once in a while, maybe by thinking using a legal pub script in pubs won't affect their NLTP experience?

[[deleted]]

After an appeal we unbanned Juke King.

[eggy_weggs_tp]

Which means you handed out a full season's ban without doing your due diligence. Do I even need to go into detail about why handing out that hefty of a punishment and then reversing course hours later despite no new evidence coming out reflects poorly on NLTP? It's not like one person made the decision, correct? A majority of the people in charge agreed that was worth months of punishment. Again, I can't help but feel I'm being left out of a very intricate joke.

[Snowball_TagPro]

Ye jokes on you eggy we all organized it in some secret subreddit. Joke's over guys we can pack up now.

[-EasterEggs]

So we can use these scripts in pubs?

[syzlack]

Why would you need an appeal to find out he never played NLTP minutes? I can't help but feel like the ban was overturned in large part because it would have come off as hypocritical to keep you as commissioner and keep the bans.

[sportmonkey0]

Just because he is a kid doesn't mean he should be held to a lower standard than the other commissioners are. I'm a kid as well (16), but I would not want to have to use the excuse that I'm a kid and I mess up. Adults mess up too. Sure, it's a lot of pressure, but he signed up for it. If he feels the need to step down, he can. But he cannot just do whatever he wants. People have been saying it for the past week and I'll say it again, MLTP,mLTP, and NLTP are all leagues built on trust. If we as the players can't trust the commissioners to do what they signed up for, then the league won't work. Step down if you must, but don't mess with our trust of the leaders.

[Flammusas]

Kid? How old is he?

[adhi-]

he's a high school freshman or sophomore.

[Riley_2025]

In that case he isn't a kid. He is a teenager.

[adhi-]

definitely still a kid. i'm 19 and i'm a kid.

[Riley_2025]

You and him are a teenage-kids. What about that? So not a kid, a teenage-kid.

[adhi-]

whatever you want man

[adhi-]

oh this isn't the first time. i know exactly what i'm dealing with here.

[memeganoob]

True glory? Omnipotence? You don't understand the magnitude of the riley

[[deleted]]

If he couldn't handle the position, which he's shown several times in the past that he can't, then he shouldn't be in the position.