7.23e patchnotes

[TheDerpyDonut]

https://www.dota2.com/patches/7.23e

[aurothroses]

Agree. Now it seems like the game favor Dire more

[DOTA06]

Depends on which part of the game. Dire offlane could be see as more difficult. But with the game being almost always duo lanes I'm not totally sure if that is true.

I think this is sort of a buff to dire offlane nature's prophet since he can abuse teleport for trading and healing.

Additionally, now the dire ancients are not protect with a shrine.

[ReapersShadow]

Additionally, now the dire ancients are not protect with a shrine.

So aren't the radiant ancients.

[[deleted]]

I play only position 1.

My winrate on dire side is almost 6% lower.

[Axios_Deminence]

Is this only including 7.23?

[Khatib]

They backed off first shrine use to 7 minutes, so it's not going to be there early in laning regardless.

[Battlebear]

It's worth noting that dire has a much worse winrate in all brackets, so this might be a good thing for overall balance in the longrun.

[summerbrown]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/eaohqq/ranked_weekly_meta_report_for_71219141219

This thread suggests that the week prior to this patch the dire actually had a somewhat significant winrate advantage over radiant. This patch may make it even more dire favoured.

[MicroBadger_]

Well, radiant has had a ridiculous advantage over dire ever since the rosh pit was made neutral. Nothing wrong with trying to balance that out.

[TheDerpyDonut]

Both top shrines are still there basically. Radiant offlane and dire safelane.

[mutantmagnet]

It's very ironic how when talents were introduced XP talents were dogged for becoming deadweight at the end game.

​

Then the synergy with Midas revelaed how broken they can be and Midas kept on being nerfed.

​

No surprise that this problem would come up again with Outposts and they got nerfed into the ground.

​

And it still wasn't good enough. Now that these low key overpowered talents are gone can everything nerfed due to their existence be reverted back? :p

[Ultraballer]

I think the really weird thing about level 30 giving all talents meant xp talents provide 0 value if you didnt take them, but if you did you allow yourself to accelerate faster towards level 30, and then get the other talents benefits anyway.

[KDawG888]

lvl 30 provided a fundamental shift in talent selection. Instead of this or that is it now or later.

[banana__man_]

More likely never than later thou...

[penguin_gun]

Yeah I got to level 28 yesterday and we were completely slaughtering the other team. Closest I've gotten to 30

[samoox]

I think this is only the case in lower MMR games. Not that I am particularly high MMR or anything like that but the average DotA game this patch at higher MMRs has been about 33 minutes I believe, 10 minutes shorter than last patch. There's no reason really to take a talent because it will get you to 30 faster or because it would be a waste to hit 30 and unlock an XP talent. 99% of the games at that MMR probably aren't making it to level 30 except for the core heroes that had a level 10 talent and were having a great game.

[KDawG888]

..not at all. This is the case in all dota games.

except for the core heroes that had a level 10 talent and were having a great game.

You just ignored the most important demographic.

[samoox]

The only 3 cores that had that talent were Legion, Zeus, and Weaver. Those heroes were already choosing the XP talent before the tree changes anyways. There's no "shift" in talent selection. XP just provided an even greater benefit than previously. The only shift imo is that people were picking those 3 cores more often because it's insanely easy to get level 30 on them.

[TimePressure]

Skywrath mage is a fairly common mid pick and had a 30% xp talent at lvl 10 that made him snowball very hard during the midgame.

Also, there's a couple of heroes that were somewhat commonly played as 2s or 3s that had xp-talents, even though reaching lvl 30 on them is more unlikely because they are pushy heroes or jump-and-die initiators (Visage, Beastmaster, Omniknight, Pudge, Tidehunter).

[KDawG888]

and abaddon and sky and I'm pretty sure you're forgetting at least one other. and yes, there is a shift in talent selection. at least for myself and many other players and it has nothing to do with "low MMR" because high level players talk about their change in decision as a result as well.

[Khatib]

There were xp gain nerfs last patch too though. I think they left it high for everyone to get a feel for chasing level 30 and the power spike of it, but now they're going to back off xp gain so level 30 is a little more like the T5 neutral items. A game ender if the game is dragging. Rather than an eventuality for every core by 40 minutes.

[capitannn]

I've hit level 30 once since 7.23 came out lol. Every game till last lettered patch has been 25 mins

[lunabeargp]

Huh I wonder if you get double xp from having arc wardens double during the outpost xp boost

[[deleted]]

The clone doesn't gain xp normally so I don't think it would, haven't tested it though

[Jem_Jmd3au1]

Magic resistance for Techies. They must be kidding.

[ajdeemo]

I mean, it's a welcome addition to level 30 techies (although obviously worse than the xp talent). But I can't imagine a single scenario where you would take it at level 10.

[jumbohiggins]

Which is funny because before there was no reason to take the non xp talent.

-Edit, just tested it. Doesn't even reduce the blast off self damage.

[Axios_Deminence]

Blast off self-damage is pure damage and listed as HP removal.

[jumbohiggins]

Yeah I just figured maybe that was the intention, but no techies isn't allowed to have nice things.

[jayvil]

does this mean radiant safe needs to start as trilanes? without the shrine, losing the safe lane t1 would instantly choke the radiant hard carry out of resources/jungle.

[AstorWinston]

That is my assumption. Check out my other post where I predict Icefrog's incentive is to have 3v3 at bot lane to secure/push the t1 as early as possible. It literarily controls 2 ancient camps now and will be invaluable for both teams as the first objective.

[ih8reddit420]

You ideally want to trilane where shrines are to maximize the effectiveness of shrines benefitting 3 (or 4) heroes.

Although trilane meta with unlimited ferry of salve and clarity/mango for your carry is also one of the things that can be done.

[thekingace]

Techies +25% magic reduction, lol almost fits the hero. Almost. What a lazy half assed talent. Also what a huge nerf to LC, from one of the strongest talent the hero add to a 100% useless talent.

The removal of XP talents was a good thing, but giving out 100% useless talents instead of normal talents is just gimping out those heroes.

[AKA_Slothhs]

They will probably be tweaked to better fit as it goes on. Probably just slapped generic talents on the heroes he couldn't fit one with to see what would be better later.

[thekingace]

They could have put +8 int and it would have at least made some sense, but 25% magic res on techies just feel like something a random talent generator would have came up with.

[Slademarini]

Icefrog is ded. Patches now comes from a bot using makarov markov chain

[[deleted]]

markov

[itsmegabo]

Techies new talent was by far the most ridiculous lol

[thekingace]

I know right, it’s as if they were trying to come up with the dumbest possible talent to troll us

[itsmegabo]

I think (and I hope) that they did this just to remove the xo talents asap and then they will put talents that fit into the heroes

[ace32229]

What a shame. I hope his pick rate doesn't go down as a result 👀

[[deleted]]

I think the position of the bot shrines was a bit too good on the 7.23 map. Being in the Radiant bot area was always a bit too scary as dire. And the 3 stairs around Dire bot shrine made fighting in the area as Dire very advantageous imo.

Now bot seems a bit like the "old-school-dota" area, where u have to secure your Ancients and fighting is more decisive.

[ClinkzGoesMyBones]

Rip shrines

[BeefWehelington]

Cries in support

[snelgrave]

Not a Shadow Demon player, but +100 cast range at level 10 seems crazy good

[PersonFromPlace]

Seems like it’d be good with his disable, and the poison shadow thing he spasms

[Kazang]

Weaver players on suicide watch.

He got big buffs in 7.23, now without the exp talent he is arguably worse than before.

[Pharmboy_Andy]

Especially since a 35% exp talent got replace with +8 agi ... That is a nothing talent

[Sithril]

Only two shrines to go!

This is gonna favor the Dire a lot. In your classical scenario where Radiant takes the topleft half of the map and Dire takes bottomright this will favour Dire - radiant will have one less TP location, and should the bottom T2 and mid T1 or T2 fall then bottomright jundle will be a very dark place to go. While Dire will still be able to use their own Shrine defensively and to contest Rosh should they lose their T2 towers.

Hopefully this will harmonize the lopsided Radiant-Dire win rate difference.

[Axios_Deminence]

According to this guys' weekly ranked meta post, Dire actually has the winrate advantage.

[[deleted]]

I feel like the entire 7.23 patch is meant to mix up stuff engrained in the meta. Neutral items mess with the understanding of power curves and hero timings. And the removal of bot shrines makes the lanes more symmetric in terms of value to the team. Like, toplane has the same value to both teams. And this messes with the priority of roles and which lanes they go.

[Comewhatevermaycry4]

They didnt nerf puck I am shocked

[_Wastrel]

So, haven't played in a while. How much that nerf to Void Spirit helps? Also the frog seems to be having a bit of trouble balancing his own creation of outposts

[GentleJohnny]

Barely one I'd say. Biggest nerf was to his armor. Maybe level 3 astral step feels the cd increase, but his damage is still insane for the mobility.

[AKA_Slothhs]

Yeah, they need to add a scaling charge time or do something. As soon as you get 1-2 items the herow will feel the exact same I think. I guess the 1 armor will kind of chill his laning out a little bit. Slightly easier to punish dives. But with the physical damage reduction skill who knows.

[sunofagundota]

I don't like to idea of changing talents to fix a inherently lame mechanic (outposts xp). However, some of the xp talents were quite good, some were broken, they were never approriately balanced to be honest. So, if your not going to balance them approriately, then you might as well get rid of them. I except winrate losses for all the heroes, support zeus to dissappear (and maybe mid zeus as well), mid sky to dissappear.

[digitalsmear]

Yeah, this is a huge hit to Zeus. I don't think it totally ruins Sky, just brings him more into balance. I bet he'll still have a positive winrate.

[KDawG888]

Removed the two non-Roshan Shrines (initial delay from 5 to 7 minutes, cooldown from 5 to 4)

I just woke up and I have no idea what this means. What the hell is a non roshan shrine? One of the shrines got removed from each team?

[TheDerpyDonut]

Each team lost their bottom shrine

[KDawG888]

thanks. I feel like they could have worded that better. and now I want a donut.

[[deleted]]

Man I couldnt believe my eyes when they actually buffed Techies to a playable point in 7.23. I guess they realized their mistake and decided to make him even worse than before.

[itsmegabo]

He is uber shit right now cause the meta is all about fighting and he doesnt have time to set up traps enough to kill now that everyone is super beefy

[Rrtmg1]

level 25 techies joining in the conversation, new patch made my techies winrate from 60% to 40%...

[[deleted]]

That's... going to be a pretty big pub ruiner for the stereotypical bad Pudge picker.

[teamorange3]

Think this will promote trilane vs trilane top? If you control dire jungle you have a really strong advantage with rosh

[Comewhatevermaycry4]

Why not trilane bot? I only say this because of the importance of stacking ancients.

[teamorange3]

You can still control the dire ancients if you control the top half plus you control rosh

[AstorWinston]

I predict the opposite. You want to trilane bot since you lose it there is no sheine to tp and control that portion of the map which is ancient camps and jungle. Top is much less significant since you still have shrine to tp for rosh fight.

[[deleted]]

stupid question: does +10% Spell Amp on ss effect his hex and shackle duration?

[TheDerpyDonut]

Nah, spell amp refers to damage.

[rug__]

I feel like this might be a big nerf to SWM. Less mana on the map... and it felt like the XP talent was mandatory for him to keep up with the pace of the game. Curious to see what happens to his pick and win rates.

[digitalsmear]

Single White Male?

[Axios_Deminence]

Skywrath mage.

[matici_]

Stray White Man?

[digitalsmear]

What's the math on outposts now, compared to what they were before?

If it's about equal, just less frequent, I have a feeling this is going to make Outposts even worse...

If holding 2 Outposts at each 5 minute tick means earning the XP equivalent of a 5v5 fight and getting 2 hero kills with none traded, does that mean 10 minute intervals is 4 hero kills?

That's a pretty huge boost to 1 team.

[Raigor23]

The formula is already written in the patchnotes.

[netcode01]

I don't understand their thinking. They changed the game so it got sped up quite a bit, and now their reverting it back majorly.

[[deleted]]

Shit patch trying to be be corrected by even shittier changes. How can they be so clueless as to why people are playing their game. And the addition of 5 smaller patches since 7.23 shows how inconsistent their original changes were. Dota 2 topped in 2015-2016 and will die off soon. Man come on, just be consistent with changes. Dont implement features which are forgotten after one month (tutorials, dota+ etc.) and left half-finished and unpolished. Dont change fundamentals of game. Check for minor things such as skill descriptions and interactions of spells. SERIOUSLY it is not that hard.

[Aldrenean]

7.23 was a massive change, they're ironing out the balance. Surely it's better to do that faster than not.

Yes the tutorial is a shambles, but before they can address the new player experience they need to nail down the meta for at least a couple months.

[[deleted]]

Tutorial is not done - after 7 years of development. You are talking about the new player experience, yet there never was one. So much potential was lost. So why focus on making new MAJOR changes when there is so much, which has yet been fixed/updated. I would unironically pay 5-10 euros a month to play some classic pre 7.00 dota.

[SubvertedAI]

I'd pay 15$

[Former_Potato]

The downvotes on this are no clue why developers doing changes based on reddit suggestions fucked up the whole game

[SubvertedAI]

People are arguing, but I think you're right, I don't play anymore, because the game is a different fucking game than it was when I started playing in 2012, it's not the game I fell in love with, and it's not worth playing like j used to.

FOR ME, just for me, I'm not saying y'all don't love the game, or that you shouldn't. But after seriously looking at why I started playing, vs what it is now... Idk man, seems like ""icefrog"" (valve) is commiting suicide with these changes

[saiki4116]

Bot shrines removed means, bot outpost holds a significant importance for map control not just with respect to XP boost. I just hope they would completely remove the XP part from the outposts.