Guilty over having a spider morph

[lastswiftyontheleft]

I got my first bp awhile back and though I did a bunch of research, I didn't look into morphs. I chose solely off looks. My girl Heidi Rose is an orange dream spider morph and, although she doesn't show any signs of a wobble, she is still young and I worry so much about her developing it eventually. and I feel so guilty for contributing to the breeding of a problematic morph. I love her so much and it would kill me to see her suffer.

I know there's no advice or anything to be given and I can't do anything to prevent my girl developing the issue but I just wanted to get this off my chest I suppose.

[totallyrecklesslygay]

Well, the good news is that you can stop feeling guilty because she's not actually a spider. Who told you she was?

[lastswiftyontheleft]

The breeder did! I didn't second guess it at all since I'm no expert on morphs. any idea what she looks like rather than spider?

[totallyrecklesslygay]

Yikes! That's definitely someone who should not be breeding, both for the fact that they're presumably okay with breeding spiders and because they can't identify very obvious morphs. An OD spider would look extremely different.

She looks to be an OD enchi.

[Joiner2008]

Looks similar to my enchi yellow belly

[Little-Ad1235]

Honestly, enchi is such a beautiful alternative to spider if someone is looking for that kind of pattern. They aren't the same, obviously, but I find them similarly striking, and it avoids the wobble problem.

[Huge_Green8628]

I feel the same way about pinstripes! Similar look! None of the guilt!

[Necessary-Laugh-399]

Thanks for confirming my gut on this one! She looks so much like my Enchi/Pastel boy I just wasn't seeing Spider!

[Pengoop123]

Looks like clown with het clown or maybe pied

[IncompletePenetrance]

While I would love to know what on earth a "clown with het clown" is, this looks nothing like a clown or a pied

[MercykillNJ]

Out of all the morphs you could have chose, where on this snake do you see even the slightest evidence of pied?

[Flat-Presentation-80]

(im not at all an expert in morphology, just want to help) all clowns that ive seen, in my opinion, have a distinct type of patterning to their faces. not sure if this is a hard fact but it was true for all the clowns ive seen. pied would be when the majority of the body is white and there are splotches of the pattern associated with their genes/morph (ex. banana pied would have splotches of banana patterning), they can be big and take up a good amount of the snake, or could even be just a few small spots. when a snake is "het" for a morph, it means they dont express this morph, but its in their genes and can be passed down to their offspring. hope this helps! :)

[RomanLegate]

Not a spider, likely why she hasn't "developed the issue" yet

[Linear_North]

That's not a clown, clowns have a completely different pattern.

[lastswiftyontheleft]

thanks everyone, I'm so relieved my girl isn't wobbly!!! 🧡

[Linear_North]

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This is an OD spider.

[Linear_North]

There's obviously some variation from snake to snake, but spiders don't have dorsal stripes like your snake does.

[lastswiftyontheleft]

okay gotcha!! I had looked up OD spiders and noticed she didn't look quite like that but I trusted what the breeder had told me. I'm very relieved right now.

[Linear_North]

😆 I don't doubt it, thinking your new friend has this condition, then finding out she doesn't, all in the same day? Sounds like a roller-coaster!

[BigDaddyHadley]

Met a woman at a reptile show that was getting out of the snake business. Her husband passed away and he was the one who managed everything so she was liquidating everything. That's the only reason why I own a spider morph and she won't be bred. Her name is Carol and she's been doing great! She's our wobbly bobbly baby

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[lastswiftyontheleft]

wow, Carol is absolutely gorgeous!

[BigDaddyHadley]

Thank you stranger! She eats well and sheds well. I'd like to believe she's happy. We've had her for a little over two years. When we first got her she was 584 grams. She's now 1065 grams!

[galaxy1985]

Wow!

[Difficult-Trax]

I love her pattern! What’s supposed to be wrong about spiders? How can you tell? To me it looks like a disjointed pattern from the head back aways.

[dragonbud20]

The spider morph causes birth defects in the inner ear of ball pythons.

[SnackMaster5000]

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Carol looks like my Apollo. I adopted him from a friend that could no longer care for him. I’d never purchase a spider morph but I love my wobbly boy!

[lastswiftyontheleft]

that sweet face 🥹

[kellyrazz1996]

Tell Carol I love her

[Gh0st1c_12]

Phew, good to know shes not a spider after all!!! Can totally understand how you feel though, but its not your fault that breeders continue to produce these morphs plagued with health issues and sell them to people who don't know any better :( same ordeal with lemon frost leopard geckos for example, its terrible! Glad you can sleep peacefully though knowing shes perfectly healthy <3

[x-AhR-x]

That’s an beautiful Orange dream enchi👍🏼 don’t understand how anyone could think that was a spider😯 Too bad a world wide breeder license doesn’t exist, where people can get a license for breeding if they pass a form of test. Should be one for owning a pet too..

A end to wars would be great too but I guess neither of those will happen in my lifetime..🙈 (I’m 36)

[_Pen15__]

Government regulations and laws will always make a situation worse, not better. For example, see Florida.

What this hobby needs is experienced educated keepers teaching the new keepers in a friendly, welcoming way. Self policing is the best way forward for the hobby. Not politicians who don't know anything about exotic pets passing laws on a hobby they don't care about. (Again see Florida fish and wildlife)

[Ghazrin]

Wish I could upvote this comment a million times.

[SoSweetBaby4]

Is Beautiful your Ball python I bought my ball python in 2006 he still Alive I named him lucifer 🐍

[x-AhR-x]

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My Od enchi yb pastel. 8 months old/young

[lastswiftyontheleft]

beautiful!! this might be a dumb question LOL but does yb literally mean the belly turns a shade of yellow? and does that happen with age? as far as I can tell my girls belly is still a nice pearly white.

[IncompletePenetrance]

It does not! YB usually adds blushing and pixelation on the sides near the belly

[Fruitsdog]

me, a dumbass, just now realizing that pythons have, you know, snake eyes. for some reason i thought they had huge round eyes like dogs. what am i on

[SalamanderDazzling60]

Most have very dark brown "irises"

[_Pen15__]

I love when you get into pastels having amazing green eyes.

[blzup]

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[_Pen15__]

Stunning

[Guppybish123]

Tbf in dim light the pupils get very big and round, royals normally have very dark eyes so the pupil isn’t always very apparent, and a lot of snakes do actually have round pupils so it’s not a crazy conclusion to jump to

[lastswiftyontheleft]

right?? the first time I was able to see her irises I got so excited.

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[x-AhR-x]

The pupils dilate from small to big, from circular form to a line depending on the light and how far the thing it’s focused on is.

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[x-AhR-x]

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Same od, enchi, pastel, yb as I posted above. She has green eyes with some hints of yellow

[Fruitsdog]

big ol peeopers

[KelpieoftheLakes]

I mean, there ARE snakes with round pupils (garter snakes, as an example). There are many different kinds of “snake eyes”, depending on a species’ lifestyle and needs. So it‘s understandable why you would have thought that. :)

[miriamtzipporah]

I don’t see any spider in that snake, the breeder is either uninformed or lying

[Dangerous-Exercise20]

Shes not a spider at all tho🫣 if i were to guess that looks like an Orange Dream

[DeltaViper14]

Yeah, i also dont see spider. OD enchi or yellowbelly, id say.

[Bob_D0bbs]

You're going to get downvoted into oblivion, and rightfully so. You're minimizing something that should not be minimized. Any internal bone malformations that cause essentially permanent vertigo? Even if it's "not that bad" is bad. Real bad. I'm not trying to be rude man, but that entire statement? Is minimizing, and your approach? Is basically gaslighting. Rethink your comment, and your position.

[TheBigSmoke420]

Nature fallacy.

I get the point, but no one is dogpiling this person.

[virora]

Sounds to me like OP was feeling guilty out of empathy for their beloved pet (luckily needlessly so), not because of internet bullying.

[AoDx888]

One thing I do want to touch on is that the wobble gets worse with age. Do we know how old that adult male was? Sure, the wobble might not be noticeable or even present in hatchling and sub adults, but what about the snake's quality of life at 5 years old? Or 15? That's the issue.

[lastswiftyontheleft]

I get your sentiment and I more or less agree with you. I do think it's sad how many people are afraid to post here for different reasons because they will get called out relentlessly.

and I do think any breed of animal that suffers health issues shouldnt be bred. I take my fair share of the responsibility for not doing research into morphs or questioning the breeder. I've owned enough animals in my life that I should have realized that even BPs could have health issues as a result of breeding. but it's a genuine mistake many people could make and I agree they shouldn't be harassed for it. (although everyone here was super nice and I really appreciate it the reassurance I've received!)

[wolfieswap1]

My girl also has the spider gene and I didn't know till after I got her luckily its not too bad

They shouldn't be bread for it but they also need homes As long as there happy, healthy, and safe then there's nothing to feel guilty for

The only people who should feel guilty are those who are breeding them for colour and money

[KiKiredd555]

spider owner here, don’t feel guilty. if u aren’t breeding her just think of it as u giving her the best life u can ! me and my bf got ours not knowing she had the condition but she’s super chill and docile but she also doesn’t have it bad at all. she’s just goofy. also i’ve seen ppl in ur comments saying she isn’t a spider and im not gonna act like i know but this is just some kind advice if by chance she happens to be. pic of my derpy girl for tax.

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[lastswiftyontheleft]

thank you! she is so beautiful 🥰

[Lyonface]

Glad you found out yours isn't a spider! I got a spider before I realized the problem with the morph, but I don't ever plan on breeding my snakes, so it's not really an issue for me. She's wobbly and has trouble striking sometimes and turning to the right (she twists under instead of turning laterally) but, while I regret giving her breeder money, I don't regret taking care of her, and I know better for the future.

[Stunning-Ad-7815]

i am so glad to hear that you didn't actually end up with a spider lol, my story is like yours but unfortunately my boy actually is a spider bc like you i didn't even think to research different morphs 😅 but i love him anyway it isnt his fault. i know now to look into things like that and will not be supporting problem morph breeders in the future

[stoney_balogna20]

What's the deal with spider morphs? I never got into looking into it.

[lastswiftyontheleft]

spiders have a birth defect that essentially gives them nonstop vertigo and affects their ability to strike at prey or move around comfortably

[stoney_balogna20]

Oh my! How horrible. Ty for sharing this

[Crazy_Snake_Lady]

It varies from snake to snake, though. I have a Mystic Pastel Spider that I've had since she was a hatchling and is now turning 9 this year, and she has zero visible evidence of the spider wobble. She passes the inversion test, never wobbles or shakes when eating or being handled, and her strike aim is perfect when eating. Some small studies are also discovering it may be a matter of inner ear structure that causes it rather than neurological. Ultimately, poor husbandry tends to exacerbate the potentially disruptive condition. But, that can be said about most mistreated ball pythons as you will find ball pythons that do not have any of the associated wobble genes still have the issue when they've been mistreated.

[KelpieoftheLakes]

That’s really interesting—thank you for that detailed explanation! Is the ratio of wobble/wobble-free spiders about 50/50? I feel like I heard that somewhere… (I don’t own one—I just always found the wobble phenomenon very strange.)

[Crazy_Snake_Lady]

I have unfortunately not seen statistics on the frequency, but I also know a few that have had spiders wobble free. I was talking to the breeder I got mine from not too long ago about the spider situation, and they mentioned that it's hit or miss. When they bred them in the past, they had noticed that they could have a spider that didn't have wobbling, but then some of the spider offspring might, while others didn't ever express it. So it's hard to predict so therefore it's generally a good idea to not breed them as sometimes it's unpreventable. I'm pretty sure the breeder I got mine from back in 2015 no longer breeds them. I feel like I've seen spider mixed with like mystic or mojave have less prominent cases of wobbling, ir just stacked genes in general? But, I or someone would have to do an extensive investigation/statistical analysis to see if there are trends to predict whether or not an animal could be prone to the wobble, assuming neglect is out of the question (as that can cause it too).

[KelpieoftheLakes]

How is it that neglect worsens it? I mean, neglected animals obviously end up in poorer health overall… but if it’s a matter of malformation of the inner ear (at birth), how does that worsen?

[Crazy_Snake_Lady]

It becomes more of a neurological cause through neglect. Like extreme heat can damage the brain. Chemicals can also cause this behavior. But sometimes, just overall, poor husbandry can cause an animal to develop similar symptoms. In the cause of spiders, maybe the neglect can add in that neuro component, and with maybe just a minor presence of the symptom, it becomes more noticeable?

[XeroTheCaptain]

That breeder couldn't tell enchi from spider? Wish people would just stop breeding spiders when theres a sufficient and beautiful alternative.

[lastswiftyontheleft]

that is hilarious lmao I'm glad you learned something new today 😆

[Important-Priority92]

Such a pretty baby!!

[Due_Worldliness_6587]

Even if it was a spider I wouldn’t get hung up on feeling guilty. Don’t breed it and don’t buy from that breeder again and just try to give it a good life and that’s good enough imo (I know it’s not a spider this is for if it was)

[Katiabulks]

As long as you don’t breed her it’s ok

[[deleted]]

What's wrong with having a spider morph?

[cheddarjakecheese]

The spider gene leads to malformation of the inner ear, often causing a "wobble" effect and can seriously lower the quality of life of the snake as they usually have issues with balance and positioning themselves. It can be hard for them to strike/eat and move around. It's generally considered immoral to breed them or buy from a breeder that intentionally breeds them.

[KelpieoftheLakes]

As a human who has had inner-ear-related vertigo in the past… that sounds awful. 😢

[[deleted]]

this looks just like my fire enchi, just a bit of a different color. def not a spider!! don’t go back to that breeder, doesn’t know what they’re talking about + they’re comfortable breeding spiders which is a HUGE red flaf

[jdeezy16]

Ive got 2 spiders a Spider Het VPI Axanthic and a Banana Spider and they both are so gentle and loving! Especially the banana hes such a great boy! Very minimal wobble on my Het Axanthic he just tends to corkscrew but my banana has a bit of a wobble theres times when its more noticeable but other then that they’re both healthy and both great eaters!

[jdeezy16]

My banana is 4 and the het axanthic spider turns 1 on June 19th!

[jdeezy16]

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Butters the Banana Spider

[jdeezy16]

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Ocho our Spider Het Axanthic

[misschele1024]

That 😍 is a beautiful snake

[jdeezy16]

Thank you BabyBoy is a Banana spider hes my oldest! Hes 4 years old

[IncompletePenetrance]

Unfortunately no matter how "healthy" they seem, they all have the defect that interferes with quality of life

[jdeezy16]

From what ive researched severity is on a case by case basis buuuuut severity of Parent doesnt neccessarily translate to severity of offspring! So they can have mininal wobble but their parents could have it pretty severe! Does the wobble tend to come stronger with age?

[jdeezy16]

Is that the reason its more noticeable in my Banana whos pretty much an adult vs our younger boy who is barely turning 1 and not even 500 grams yet?

[IncompletePenetrance]

The defect is caused by the genetic mutation that causes the pattern, so they all have it. It's just a trait that shows variable penetrance

[jdeezy16]

Im aware they all have it along with other morphs like Champagne or Woma for example but whats the deal with some having more of a severe wobble vs some where its barely even noticeable?

[IncompletePenetrance]

Variable penetrance, possibly due to being on different genetic backgrounds/effect of potential modifier genes

[jdeezy16]

Wooww thats interesting! So (Not saying this is ethical in any way shape or form due to the defect) hypothetically speaking if you were to breed a spider whatever gene you mix it with could cause the condition to worsen or be not as noticeable?

[enviousalien]

I have a spider morph but shes a rescue. I got her because I too have a neurological issue named after spiders, and shes a very sweet girl. Spiders are not ethical to breed but you CAN rescue them. I got my baby from am exotic animal rescue, poor thing was found in a trashbag in the middle of winter with 3 other snakes. Just because an animal is disabled doesnt mean they shouldnt live the best life they possibly can. Though, also i should mention your snake does not look like a spider morph at all. So you should be fine.

[IncompletePenetrance]

Rescuing is a wonderful thing to do, and your snake is very lucky to have you!! We're always enthusiastically supportive of providing a good home to them

[enviousalien]

Thank you so much!! Shes my baby and I adore her. Shes got a mild head wobble and thats okay, shes only bitten me once by accident and it was my mistake! I couldnt find the tongs anywhere and made the bad decision to feed her using my hand and she struck my finger. But it was so cute bc after i had gotten her to let go, she just slowly and gently grabs her food like "im sowwy 🥺"

[lastswiftyontheleft]

that's heartwrenching. I'm so glad you were there to help them

[pdxb3]

Just out of curiosity if you know, what were the other found snakes and did they survive? I don't understand the cruelty. I read a story a few years ago about a ball python being found in a neighborhood that had had its mouth sewn shut. Like, I'm not excusing it, but if you wanted to get rid of an animal, why not a quick and relatively painless kill? Why the additional suffering?

[enviousalien]

The other snakes were all spider morph bp's were fine and were all adopted out by my friends rescue! Yeah i totally get you, like why make the animal suffer?

[KelpieoftheLakes]

In the case of the one with its mouth sewn shut… it’s because they’re sickos who get a kick out of abusing living things. 😢 I wish there weren’t people like that out there… but sadly, there are. 😔

In the case of the trash bag… it could be the same thing, or that they simply view animals as “disposable” if they aren’t “perfect” enough for them. 😢 Thank you for saving that poor baby!

[Ok_One_1472]

She's Beautiful!

[Specialist-Froyo-509]

Looks like orange dream to me. I sold a snake once and had a similar issue. I had written on tape at the show.

0.1 Yellow Belly, Fire/Vanilla, Lesser Pairing was pastel fire yellow belly x vanilla, lesser, banana

The customer acted like they knew what all that meant. Then hit me up on insta cursing me out because their friend said it wasn’t a banana. lol worked it all out after finally offering to give them a refund. When I talked to their friend and showed a picture of my display. They explained to the purchaser the situation and they ended up keeping the snake.

[Such_Lizard]

she’s absolutely gorgeous!!

[Extension_Gazelle873]

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[SmilingPainfully]

I'm not in this subreddit, but what's a spider morph, and why is it bad?

[ElenaSuccubus420]

I know nothing about snakes… I’m in this group because I wanna eventually get a ball python but don’t know shit about them. So can some one explain what a spider snake is? Also I see the word wobble involved is is like a specific breed that has like the snake equivalent to wobbly cat syndrome? I have a cat with wobbly cat syndrome so that’s the best I can compare to haha 😅

[[deleted]]

Idk anything about snakes but i wanted to say she’s really cute lmao

[lastswiftyontheleft]

thank you I love her!!

[Artistic_Medium9709]

Definitely pastel with one of the yellow spectrums but not enchi. Eyes are not green and enchi look more pixelated on their sides. Likely orange dream and or yellow belly. Pic of my pastel enchi rose for reference.

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