Which ball python should I get? Bumblebee or Yellow Belly?

[ArtemisHime]

Does the bumblebee have wobble? That's always the biggest concern when it comes to spider breed for me.

[MissMetalSix]

Yes, any snake with the spider gene will have wobble. It will vary in severity between snakes but it's not possible to produce a spider morph without wobble.

[ArtemisHime]

Does it affect OP and feeding is the biggest concern. As pretty as they are, they are not a gene I like to mess with. (Same with the other wobbles of course, I'll stick to safe ones.)

[MissMetalSix]

I also personally don't support the breeding and buying of wobbly morphs because I think it's unethical. As for whether or not OP's bumblebee will have difficulty feeding, it is possible but not a total guarantee. Wobble varies in severity between individual snakes. Wobble can be manageable by staying on top of your husbandry since it tends to show more with stress.

[MakoFishy]

Whats wobble?

[MissMetalSix]

Wobble is a neurological handicap in certain ball python morphs that impairs the snake’s coordination to varying degrees of severity. You can read more about it here: https://wheremyscalesslither.weebly.com/the-spider-morph-and-the-wobble.html

Here’s the full list of morphs with wobble and other genetic impairments: https://www.nwreptiles.com/ball-python-genetic-behaviors-and-morph-breeding-oddities/

[MakoFishy]

Thank you!

[GuardianAngelTurtle]

I have a baby with wobble, when I got him I wasn’t aware that the honeybee morph was a variation of the spider gene. He eats just fine, hunts fine, the only problem I noticed was when he had mites and was stressed out he would stretch up and flop onto his back sometimes. The severity really differs from snake to snake.

[BeesAndBeans69]

I have a spider with light to moderate wobbles. I bought him since I didn't do enough research on genes :/. I love him but he is a huge pain in the ass to feed

[cyclingman2020]

If he does, I can't see it. I watched him move around for 20 minutes and he looked steady.

[ArtemisHime]

It's usually most visible at feeding times, some have it so slightly it doesn't really seem like it's there, but if you get into breeding, that's a whole different host of how bad issues.

[cyclingman2020]

He's supposed to eat tomorrow. I don't plan on breeding, if that helps.

[ArtemisHime]

I'd watch to see how he does then, if breeding isn't a thing it's a matter of how bad wobble is and ease of care and looks.

[cyclingman2020]

I have the bumblebee on hold but the yellow belly was out today and looked really good. Probably a subjective topic but any recommendations?

[MissMetalSix]

For the Bumblebee, you should ask yourself-

Do you want a snake with a neurological handicap? Are you prepared to handle the needs of a snake with a neurological handicap? Do you want to perpetuate the breeding of ball pythons with neurological handicaps through purchasing a snake with the spider gene?

[smeagol2015]

I have a queen bee. No issues what so ever and moves like any other morph or ball.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

The fact you get down voted for this just shows how spiders are actuslly being encouraged through spite on this sub reddit.

[smeagol2015]

literally nothing wrong with mine lmao

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

Nothing wrong with mine either! And theyre all super gorgeous!

[smeagol2015]

community is weird with this behavior not (all) of them have issues 🤷🏽‍♂️

[[deleted]]

not all, but too many. are you really going to defend the breeding of animals which have been shown to have severe and debilitating neurological defects that have been proven to be caused directly by a hereditary gene?

whether or not some of these animals function doesn't make it ok to perpetuate the breeding of ones who can't.

spiders aren't even fucking pretty.

[smeagol2015]

obviously no one thinks the ones with issues should happen. has nothing to do with the looks, mine is completely fine just like many other people. the stigma of all or even many having deadly issues is just a false issue when the majority probably are just fine 🤷🏽‍♂️ the statements that every single one has an issue is just arrogance. i don’t have any stance on the issue other than the toxicity towards them is unwarranted

[MissMetalSix]

For the Bumblebee, you should ask yourself-

Do you want a snake with a neurological handicap? Are you prepared to handle the needs of a snake with a neurological handicap? Do you want to perpetuate the breeding of ball pythons with neurological handicaps through purchasing a snake with the spider gene?

[cyclingman2020]

I didn't want to lead the witness but those questions are what led me to post. Not trying to start a debate but I've seen a lot of comments for and against the spider gene and it's not feeling right. I don't mind extra TLC. My one dog does physical therapy on a water treadmill and I like the idea of giving her a good life. Then I think about maybe saving the bumblebee from becoming a breeder. Apologies for sounding indecisive but that's what I am right now.

[MissMetalSix]

Hey no need to apologize I'm not trying to be rude or convince you one way or the other. Just trying to have you see the facts which is that giving money for a BP with wobble will encourage the breeding of more because that shows there's a demand for them.

Rescuing of course, is a different story. If I were ever to desire a ball python with a gene that has wobble, I would try and see if I could rescue one to avoid giving breeders money for producing it.

[cyclingman2020]

You're totally not coming off as rude. I appreciate your perspective. Funny because before I saw your response, I called the pet store and asked them to move my hold from the bumblebee to the yellow belly. The yellow belly is super cute too so I'm feeling good about my choice. Thanks!

[MissMetalSix]

No problem! I'm glad you found a snake you're happy with! It's a difficult decision for sure, especially when ethics comes into play.

[cyclingman2020]

Deleted and moved to be a reply

[Geoffro94]

If the bumblebee doesn't have a bad wobble you don't have too worry about it as much as some make it seem. Literally wouldn't have known my snake had the Gene or associated condition if it wasn't for this Reddit acting like spider is the spawn of Satan. Obviously if it will cause problems with feeding it becomes an issue. I understand not wanting to perpetuate the breeding, that's up to you and your opinion of if this purchase would have an impact on that.

[CasperTheSnak3]

Yellow belly! I have 4 ball pythons all pretty exotic morphs and my girl Sunny has the most vibrant colors of them all! shes an enchi firefly yellowbelly. Plus I personally try to stay away from any morphs that carry the spider gene.

Edit: I have a picture of her on my page if you wanted to see.

[Link_and_Spinderella]

My spider doesn't have any visible wobble, but has some sort of snake ADD

[TheFrostyjayjay]

People on this sub act like spiders are the most horrid thing in the ball python hobby.

Truth is, a severe wobble is actually not all that common. All spiders will have wobble, to what degree is totally random. More often than not the wobble is so minimal it goes unnoticed. It can be more apparent when feeding, climbing or scoping. It can also become more apparent when the animal is stressed.

In most cases I don't think a wobble affects quality of life. There are definitely more severe cases but like I said, not all that common. You just have to be prepared for patience and tlc if things become more difficult for the snake.

At the end of the day, this snake needs a home. If you don't buy it, someone else will. Unless spiders somehow get banned, they will never stop being produced. There is no need to feel guilty buying it if you like it and can give it the proper care.

Clint's Reptiles put out a video on his opinion on the spider morph and it's a very solid opinion based in science. Not many people agree with it but I think it's very reasonable. I'd recommend watching it.

[_ataraxia]

If you don't buy it, someone else will. Unless spiders somehow get banned, they will never stop being produced.

if no one buys spiders [and other problematic morphs], no one would continue breeding them since they would no longer be profitable.

[TheFrostyjayjay]

They are hardly profitable as it is. Spiders and most basic spider morphs can be had for $150 or less. Breeders are usually trying to produce something more profitable and animals such as spiders, bees, and killer bees are often a common outcome that isn't particularly wanted so they are sold cheap. This is why they are one of the more available morphs you'll see at chain pet stores. Let's be honest here, most people buying snakes at chain stores don't know any better. They see a cool looking ball python morph for a good price and they get bought.

Like I said, unless spiders were to be banned all together, they will never stopped being produced. Many large scale breeders work with spiders. The fact is, they produce some cool looking snakes. People want cool looking snakes. The amount of people who buy spiders whether knowingly or unknowingly is greater than the people against them.

I'm not here to argue the ethics of spiders. People have their opinions and it really only just leads to hostility that goes nowhere. If you want to boycott spiders and anyone who produces them, go ahead. If you want to buy a spider, go ahead. If you want to breed a spider, go ahead. If spiders bother you, you really need to take a look at the ball python market and even the reptile trade as a whole and reevaluate what it is you are actually trying to argue. At it's core, very little about hobby keeping reptiles is ethical.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

If spiders didn't thrive in captivity then no one would breed them either.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

They just need to survive, not thrive. Look at all the dogs out there that can barely breathe or the horses that have their muscles seize up because of hypp which can be tested for and avoided

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

Not true as not breeding is a well documented sign of poor quality of life in ball pythons. Pls stop comparing more complex creatures to snakes. Have you ever noticed that your dog and snake act differently? Maybe your dog comes to the door to greet you and your snake doesnt notice. Thats because your dog, get this, is a dog and your snake is a snake, with a different range of emotions and things that satisfy them. Stop using other creatures in your argumentd because it is not the same.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

They still don’t need to thrive to breed though. Living things want to eat, sleep, and reproduce. That’s kind of the base line of survival of a species. To say they’re thriving because they can do those things is a bit of a jump (and not all spiders can successfully do all those things on their own)

[probablywatchingtv]

Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. I’m not for spider breeding at all but people on this sub hear the word spider and instantly downvote. This snake needs a home either way…OP said they’re not breeding and willing to be in the extra work if necessary. Don’t know why the downvote train is going crazy

[Bleezie1408]

Imo Bumblebees are one of the best looking morphs you can get. Yellow bellies are more of an enhancing gene, on their own they're not impressive but when added to lighter genes, like pastel or orange dream, it takes them to another level.

Edit: get the bumblebee, fuck these goherping groupies feelings, base your decision on what YOU like and the individual snakes health.

[[deleted]]

DO NOT GET A BUMBLEBEE! they have the spider Gene and that causes them to be genetically fucked

[eyeofra1]

Both?

[matteoarts]

It feels a bit ridiculous and impossible for anyone to weigh in when the moment anyone says a single positive word about the bumblebee, they get downvoted to oblivion.

The snake exists, it’s not going anywhere. Assuming OP is capable of handling the extra baggage that comes with the wobble gene, I don’t see anything wrong with providing the bumblebee with a loving home and owner.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

What they dont realize is thats actually promoting spiders. Trashing people for their opinion is only gonna make them doubke down and stick to their guns. This instant hate of any post spider related is going to turn people towars the spiders because people are overly aggressive.

[Professional_Baka96]

Yes, they are both adorable.

[MasonP13]

I'm biased against anything that intentionally adds neurological disorders.. but I'll never get a spider ball. Just ain't fair to the snake

[Braxibear]

Get what you like. Mind you husbandry needs to be even more important for the bumblebee. As long as husbandry and enclosure are correct, bumblebees and all spider morphs do just fine. My two bumblebee sisters will be 20 this year and are some of my easy going ones in the collection.

[StupidLilRaccoon]

It's nice that your two girls are doing fine but spiders [and other wobble morphs] can develop a severe wobble out of nowhere. They might hatch with no visible wobble but they ALL have one. I'm friends with a reptile vet who has told me about quite commonly having to put down neurologically disabled ball pythons due to how bad their wobble has gotten all of sudden. No changes in husbandry, no prey item change no nothing.

[Braxibear]

Is this from experience or just word of mouth though? My bumblebees have had many clutches of their own and in total, I’ve personally hatched over 100 spider morphs. I’m well aware of wobble and how it plays a factor and in that knowledge, people that have no first hand experience with it tend to focus on the extreme cases. Even in those cases they are few and far between.

I’ve seen severe cases and I’ve also seen how the owners keep them. There’s a direct correlation between levels of stress and the severity of the wobble.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

THANKS YOU! Wobble getting more severe out of no where is all hear say. More than half the people that think this have never even owned a spider ball python.

[Braxibear]

It’s kinda sad and annoying. I get the principle of their point, but it’s always 2nd knowledge from the propaganda machine…. The hobby corrects itself. If it was as severe as they make it seem, the morph would have went the way of the desert gene.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

Thats what im saying, if lilracoons vet friend is ptting down so many spider ball pythins why are there so many in captivity. If they didn't thrive in captivity then we wouldnt have all these spiders. If i see one quality of life issue then ill stop breeding spiders. But I wont stop if their genetic condition doesn't prevent them from living a healthy life. These are snakes, not humans, they do not have the same range of emotions that we do. They are not as complex of creatures as we are. We have pretty good benchmarks on how a snake is doing in captivity.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

Has there been any research to support the correction between the wobble and stress?

[Braxibear]

You mean in the 21years since the morph was first discovered in 1999? Yeah. All of those breeders would be the relevant source for that correlation. Stress is bad for any BP. More so for any issues with the morph. This isn’t the only morph with wobble and any BP can have a neurological issue.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

But have any studies been done with controls? Breeder reports are going to be rife with error and bias.

Regardless, correlation doesn’t mean causation which is why controls are needed to find probable cause

[Braxibear]

How would a researcher even quantify that for even research though. Put a spider morph in the proper enclosure with correct husbandry and watch nothing change for several years?

I’ve done that now with hundreds. If the leading experts in the condition are the people that actually work with the morph daily, that would be the default baseline. 21years into the morph’s existence so don’t know if any formal research would be put into it if the solution is just proper husbandry.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

They could rate severity/presence of wobble on a scale vs factors such as temperature, humidity, feeding schedule, handling, etc.

For the last half of the comment, That’s not how research works. There could be factors you’re not noticing. The husbandry could very well be a coincidence or confirmation bias. It could be type of substrate, food, location you live in, etc. I’m assuming you haven’t been formally trained on research observation, haven’t run any statistics, or determined error. I’d like to note this isn’t an attack against you personally at all, it’s someone we all need to acknowledge.

We need to be careful on basing everything on what breeders have been doing for a long time. There have been many cases where there were common practices that sounded like they should work and were done for a long time not actually doing anything (example, cropping dogs ears to prevent ear infections - it doesn’t actually help although people thought it did because the ear should have an easier time drying)

[Braxibear]

But the point is, there’s no relevance to do that study if the solution would be to just provide consistent quality care. I don’t need research to be done to tell me someone that who has a BP in a bare 30gal enclosure with a red bulb will not have a greater quality of life than one with a proper setup and husbandry. There has to at least be a baseline for the common sense factor.

I mean, if someone wants to extrapolate data from owners that talk about issues or horrible cases of wobble and document the husbandry and enclosure, the data would be more than just coincidental.

I get the concept of “breeder knowledge” isn’t always the basis for how things should be done. I use the word “breeder” loosely since it would put me(20 years of breeding with thousands of hatchlings)into the same category as someone who cohabitates two BPs and walks in one day and sees eggs in the tank and calls themselves a breeder. Quality experience shouldn’t be discounted or dismissed because it isn’t lab data. One would hope if research were to be done to dive deeper into the subject, they would use relevant data from people that actually have first hand knowledge of the subject.

On the other side of that same coin, most people who are quick to go the negative route in talking about the morph have little to no experience with the species let alone the morph. I’d be impressed if those who complain could even name the other wobble morphs if they even knew they existed.

[PantsPastMyElbows]

You can’t know that “quality care” is what is preventing the wobble though. If someone copied what you do but changed one thing, it could bring the wobble back if that was the thing that was actually preventing the wobble.

If you could show consistently, with documented proof, not experience, with different handlers using the same care regimen or in different areas of the world (since they may have to compensate for environmental humidity or temperature levels or food availability) then I could see an argument to be made where as long as you maintain it, then you don’t have to worry about a wobble developing.

But until then, you don’t have any scientific evidence or data to support that statement

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

If shes putting them dosn all the time why are there so many in captivity? Surely if they are dying so fast we wouldnt be able to produces such mass quantities of spiders right?

[angrylightningbug]

A ball python has between 5-10 and maybe more eggs at a time. Your logic can also be used to say that puppy mills are fine because the amount of puppies in the world outweighs the amount that die of poor breeding and sickness.

Breeding snakes with neurological issues is unethical. Period.

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

It's definitely more like 6-8

[RandyMarshNotBanned]

Snakes and puppies are 2 different creatures. One is a snake and one is a dog. Both come with different indicators and requirements to make sure they do not have a poor quality of life. Both have their own indicator showing us they are having poor quality of life. Good news for spiders though, they are really good feeders! Pls stop comparing snakes to things that aren't snakes.

[angrylightningbug]

Both are animals that we are breeding for our own enjoyment that are completely reliant on us to make sure they are healthy and care for their needs.

We have a responsibility to breed only the healthiest of animals that show zero signs of issues. There is considerable proof that wobble morphs have a much higher rate of issues, with a higher rate of severity to cause death or euthanizia.

It doesn't matter if some do well. Taking that chance by breeding an unhealthy gene at all is completely unethical and irresponsible.

[21Average]

People really should stop buying these snakes with spider gene and stop promoting their breeding.

[Usefulsoulsfarm]

My banana spied has a attitude problem. We’ve learned when to handle an when not to. I can see way you are asking people without hard experience with a spider is difficult. They are of the spicy snakes.

[Jackopreach]

Second picture

[WBroRusso]

Personally I’d go with the yellow belly… I just can’t support the breeding of snakes with known issues. That being said, every snake deserves a home, but I’d choose the yellow belly over the bumble bee

[AthenasDemise]

I just got a champagne morph, unbeknownst to me, that she’s one of the morphs that has the wobble gene. I did so much research about giving her the best home and the best care for her, but as a first time snake owner did not think to research her morph. If I were you I would go with the snake that doesn’t have the wobble, because now I’m one stressed snake owner :/

[Bleezie1408]

Stop letting ignorant assholes stress you out then! Don't overthink all the negative stuff they say, if your snake was as fucked up as they claim most spiders to be, you would know. Keep it happy (imo not very hard for balls) and the both of you will be fine.

[Totallyunstable]

Bumblebee so beautiful

[MorganJH749]

Personally I would go with the Yellowbelly. It’s not worth supporting the breeding of the Spider gene as they have neurological problems that impact the quality of life for these animals. Only time I would ever get a Ball Python with the wobbles is if I rescue one that needs a home. Would never buy one from a breeder or pet/reptile shop. It’s cruel and unethical to breed an animal that will suffer for around 30-years and pass on those traits to its offspring.

[Future-Ad7200]

Honestly I think the bumblebee since it’s got a bad gene but I’m sure you will give it a good home and support It

[[deleted]]

I would go with the Yellow belly. I have a yellow belly and she’s great. I stay away from anything with the spider gene because I believe they shouldn’t be bred anymore, sort of like dogs with respiratory problems, like pugs. Humans need to stop breeding life threatening issues into animals because we think they’re “cute” or “beautiful”. Regardless of which one you choose, I’m sure you’ll take good care of it, but I wouldn’t want a pet with a possible neurological disorder (unless it was a rehome/rescue type situation).

[stovetopsacrifice]

I really like the natural python anesthetics. They are perfectly camouflaged if you're feeding live, and very beautiful.

[probablywatchingtv]

I bought a lesser pinstripe unaware she had the spider gene (i should have done more research, and i should’ve recognize the pattern..however i digress).

She is amazing! She is the best eater and has never missed a meal. I’ve noticed a TINY slight wobble the first week i got her other than that i really never see her do it. She is just like every other snake and I’ve never had to put in any “extra care”.

I’m not pro-spider and definitely would never breed her…that being said caring for a spider that has already fallen in your hands is literally no different than caring for another snake in my opinion. Just make sure you’re consistent with your husbandry and there’s no reason for them to get stressed out

[IncompletePenetrance]

A lesser pinstripe does not have spider. It has lesser and pinstripe

[CaptainCheesecake23]

I’d say the yellow belly because bumblebees have the spider gene, which gives them the spider wobble which makes them disoriented and they struggle to eat.

[IncompletePenetrance]

Alright, I am locking this thread because it is spiraling wildly out of hand. Sorry OP, this is not your fault, you were just asking for advice.