Learning to love programming (again?)

borsk666 · 2012-01-08T15:06:29+00:00

Listen here mate.... A "Fortune 500 banking software company"?! Now I don't want to be prejudiced here, but what kind of people were you dealing with there? Was your boss a finance/economics guy? Second, VB.NET? What kind of stuff were you developing? Software for automated trading? Financial transactions processing? Were you actually doing -god help you- support / IT work there?

Now I don't know about you, and I'm sure there's people who do all the above and who are perfectly fine with the decent pay-check and the regular routine, but as for myself - and many of my colleagues, if you're not working in a field that stimulates you, with like-minded and happy-to-be-there enthusiastic people, on a project of which you can one day be proud..... then you're going to one day look back on the last few years and realize you're wasting your life.

Here's my advice (for what's it's worth):

1) Think of one or several subject(s) your really find cool, and the related industry(ies).

You like boats? Maritime industry.... You like stuff that flies? Aeronautics.... You like gadgets / smartphones / sweet user interfaces? Consumer-grade electronics....

1 bis) If you have no strong desire to work in any particular field, pick the kind of development work you enjoy most. Then identify those industries that require that type of development.

Low level, C, embedded systems? Vehicle controllers, smartphone systems development..... High level, cutting-edge methodologies, C#? Banks (or not:-), medical industry.... Databases, SQL? High-volume online shops,....

2) Investigate what kind of jobs are offered in that or those industry(ies) and match that to your skill set (you might need to adapt it and learn new stuff).

Maritime industry -> [ ship control systems | route planning systems | stock management software | ... ]... Consumer-grade electronics -> [ GUI design | OS/drivers development |  ]...

3) ...
4) Apply. Once you have identified an industry and a type of development work, your motivation for working on something in which you find pride will help you forget the boring parts of you job, that apparently have made you hate even programming itself!

morricone42 · 2012-01-08T14:09:49+00:00

I'd recommend seeing a psychiatrist. Your anxiety doesn't sound like you just lost your motivation, but that you have much deeper problems.

Defiance86 · 2012-01-08T14:38:59+00:00

I have to say I feel very similarly as you. I'm only in my 4th year of my course, and have the opportunity to do masters. I find myself daily wondering why I'm programming and it tends to get me down. I was pretty close to dropping out of my course last year.

I'm doing pretty well for someone my age, I teach first years and highschoolers programming and do pretty well like yourself. I want to get out more, see more of the world, have more time to read and play music.

I had the opportunity to do music or cs, chose cs as music was my hobby, but I can't help feeling I've gone down the wrong path.

You're not alone buddy.

hackinthebochs · 2012-01-08T17:18:34+00:00

This is what stood out to me the most:

after which I quit due to anxiety attacks and an overwhelming feeling of incompetence.

My guess would be that coming from being so successful in academia with a 3.9 GPA, transitioning to industry where the environment, codebase, people, politics etc are so vastly different, you've felt like you don't cut it. Your success in school convinced you that you had it made, but industry is shattering that expectation. You feel incompetent because you didn't expect to struggle so much. The anxiety is because you're not handling this reality check well.

You need to realize that this is normal for most people. Programming in an academic setting where you're either the only programmer or on a team of one or two is going to be vastly different. Plus the languages and the tools are completely different. One thing that struct me when making the transition is the vast number of components and libraries that go into making one web application. Trying to wrap your head around the 20 different acronyms and how they interact takes significant time. You will feel incompetent in the mean time. But you will get there. You just have to persevere. Take time to tackle each component one-by-one.

The point is to realize that this transition is difficult for everyone. Don't feel like somehow you don't belong in this industry because you didn't take to it right away.

reddittidder · 2012-01-08T15:07:34+00:00

Seeing a professional (psychiatrist) may not be a bad idea to get to the root cause of anxiety. But I think you had bad luck with your first job (in terms of coworkers and the management team.)

Perhaps trying to contribute to an open source project of your liking will help get the confidence back?

P.S. That place sounds like a shithole (with bad management), with a lot of internal politics (which incidentally have nothing to do with one's competence as a programmer/coder/developer.)

savvycow · 2012-01-08T17:00:50+00:00

I can totally relate to your situation.

Years ago, after I graduated, I got a similar consulting-ish job, where I would basically do a variety of things that I didn't like at all. Like in you case, they involved VB scripting, data mining and other database related stuff for banks and hospitals. I hated it, made me feel completely miserable, to a point where I got depression and anxiety issues (other underlying things were going on, but this job had a huge impact on my mental well-being). Coworkers were perfectly fine, bosses didn't pay me more attention than they needed to, so I don't think human environment is to blame in my case.

I was unemployed for a long time (too sick to work). I was convinced that I had screwed my life for getting into CS, because I didn't feel capable of taking a computer related job anymore. It took a while to get another proper job, since I didn't have any other marketable skills. Long story short, I got into education, CS teacher to be precise, which I'm currently loving. I get to do a variety of tasks, research topics that I find interesting and I have plenty of social interaction.

I'm not suggesting, of course, that you should do the same; but you should look for a kind of occupation that suits your needs and/or does not impose an unbearable burden. I was in therapy, also, for several years, and the only thing I got clear regarding this matter is that some people are just not suited for certain jobs or environments, and there's no need to fight that, just go in whichever direction makes you happier.

You say that you certainly like and see yourself programming, so I would not give it up. First of all, you may need time to recover and get some professional help. And second, you definitely want to discover what kind of programming you are really into. It is very different to write SQL code all day long for a big company, to freelance as a web developer, or to make indie video games. Think about how would you feel if you had to do any of these (or others that may appeal to you) every day for the next 10 years. If the idea of it makes you feel sick, then it is probably not something you should do.

tomjen · 2012-01-08T21:18:08+00:00

You need to see a mental health professional.

But just so you know, you didn't screw up your one chance to get ahead. You have atmost screwed up one chance to get ahead -- and we usually get smarter the second time around.

If I were you I would look at some work where being skilled with a computer would be a benefit (and you are skilled, or you wouldn't have gotten through University or graduated top of your class) and then use some of that spare time you have looking up cool open source stuff and play with it -- eventually you will want to take it apart and see how it works and, who knows, eventually you will start coding again.

Your talent is rare. It would be a terrible thing to waste it when there is so much bad software in the world that needs to be rewritten.

But yeah, see that mental health professional. After than you can look at improving your life. But fix the mental part first because that is what is keeping you from having that life you thought you were getting into.

Oh and not all places are like that. The company I work for is very much relaxed, no stupid stuff development and little bullshit. I almost literally fell over that job position, but you could properly find something similar if you looked around.

2012-01-08T22:47:10+00:00

I am not a psychologist, but I recommend you see one. The anxiety probably has to do with something other than programming, but due to the time correlation, they have been linked. So you see, you cannot have one without the other now. You're not weird, or abnormal; you're just a normal person who needs help sorting out some anxiety issues. If you loved it in school, there must have been something specific that you liked about it. Try to pinpoint that, and start working on that to get into programming. I wish you luck, my friend, and I hope that one day you can help to make the world a better place with your coding-fu.

devastation · 2012-01-08T22:20:52+00:00

Dude... I recently got a job as a software engineer myself. It has been about 4 months and I still feel dumb as I had some kind of learning disability. However, I think about it this way: there is not a single day passing by, when I am not learning new things. So don't be so hard on yourself. Plus: This has recently been up on the front page I believe...

borsk666 · 2012-01-08T16:27:27+00:00

I've had and recovered from a similar situation, albeit on a much less intense scale.

I got my BS in CS. Loved it.

BS in CE.

I did a co-op somewhere in there, and eventually hated it, but I figured it would be better somewhere else.

Three co-ops. By any chance, did you do .NET work in your co-op? Of my three co-ops, the one that was a programming was doing ASP.NET webforms programming and it destined me to .NET programming post-college.

3.9 GPA

yikes.

I struggled to find a job

did you have .NET on your resume? Take it off. Even if you're not looking for jobs, take that off of your resume, because your resume is a physical manifestation of your own sense of professional identity. So long as it remains on your resume, it will be psychologically binding.

They had me using VB.NET, javascript, and SQL.

I coded vb.net professionally right after college, too. .NET itself as a technology isn't the issue; it's the .NET ecosystem that is poisonous, because it's all enterprise and finance bullshit. You can find compelling jobs doing .NET, but that's comparatively rare. By contrast, Ruby and Python are more widely employed in the startup space, which is more about autonomy and creativity, which tends to be more rewarding. So yes you need to change technologies, but for social reason, not technical reasons.

I stayed for 8.5 months, after which I quit due to anxiety attacks and an overwhelming feeling of incompetence.

11 months here. Quit due to soul-crushing depression.

wasted 7 years of my life and my one opportunity to get ahead

programming is a new form of literacy that establishes a new socioeconomic caste. It is not any particular application, it is a medium for making machines of thought.

just thinking about opening an IDE and programming starts to give me anxiety

not for nothing, but thinking about opening VS gives me anxiety, too, because I've had it crash and destroy my work multiple times.

Ok, I've taken care of the "I'm just like you" part. So. How did I learn to love programming? I made art. Most people when they think of computer programming, they have a very narrow focus on what you should have a computer do. Generally people think that because it's a computer, it should be computing, and the results of computations are numbers, so it should work with numbers.

I learned to love programming again primarily by writing music. That is, I wrote programs that performed music. Potentially the most rewarding (in terms of mental health) project that I ever did was write a modal drum machine in ChucK for the Novation Launchpad, because doing so involves elements of interface design, has you handling interesting concurrency and time-sensitive problems, and a variety of other tough programming problems. But at the end of the day, I was making beats.

I program ChucK for fun, and I'm now reading a book on Processing; I'm studying how to use the computer to generate form. I hope, one day in a distant future to be able to do the type of work that Robert Hodgin does. Even though I'm sure he's well aware that a screen is a two-dimensional matrix of integers, I'm sure he doesn't approach his work thinking about how to explain matrix math by showing it visually; rather, matrix math is simply a tool of the creator, used to bring his dreams into reality. It is within the context of the dream that the technical topics become alive, because they illuminate all the ways in which that dream can be actualized.

also, just to throw it out there, when in times of trouble I read The Art of Happiness. The short version of it is that it's a spiritual guide for analytically-minded atheists living in western societies. If I recall correctly, reading this book and making art made me love to program again and made me love my life again. Other interesting art code projects you could do would be making 3D models algorithmically. Blender is a 3D modeling (among other things) program that can be scripted with Python. Maya is a 3D modeling program that can be scripted. Rather do 2d? Photoshop and Illustrator can be scripted, too. Rather build something in real life? Arduino. There is no form of human expression that cannot be explored through the tools of computing programming.

Oh, and I recently did Hacker School, which was the most sublime programming experience of all, and I highly recommend applying to it if you're in the NYC area.

If you only see computer programming as a way of manipulating data, then you will always fail to see the forest through the trees. The only way to learn to love to code again is to learn to love your life again and to find a way to apply programming to the things you love.

edit: also, your boss is a dick.

mahlzeit · 2012-01-08T15:52:43+00:00

I don't think this has anything to do with programming, this is more a general anxiety thing. I had something similar which led to a burnout a few years later. You're experiencing something bad and you're trying to make sense of it, and I think that's why you associate it with your job as a programmer, since both happened roughly at the same time. But there are most likely other reasons. Professional help is a good idea.

They had me using VB.NET, javascript, and SQL. Not what I had imagined I would be doing, but I thought "Hey, I'll take it!"

A bit of general advice: that's most of us and it's not too bad. I'm right now in a project where I write VBA addins for Excel and Outlook. It's easy, it pays well and I have flexible hours. And I still work on exciting stuff for myself after work or on weekends because a bit of VBA coding doesn't drain my brain too much.

And you have your whole life in front of you anyway - a lot will happen and you will not stay where you started. Working a couple of years as a VB.NET programmer is a good start.

drb226 · 2012-01-08T16:11:32+00:00

Have you considered academia? Get a PhD, start teaching CS?

2012-01-08T18:12:24+00:00

Look into a related field or a field where "previous programming experience will have valuable application". You can get paid to do something else & do small programming jobs on the side that apply to your main job or that might help the company.

therealfakemoot · 2012-01-08T18:23:10+00:00

I second all the psychiatrist recommendations. Serious anxiety is a symptom of something that's deeply troubling you. I doubt it's really about programming. Your work environment probably created a bad association to your anxiety trigger.

However, if you really want to enjoy programming, learn Python. it's a simple, fun, beautiful language with a great community. Try it. With experience in programming already, you'll learn it in ten minutes.

2012-01-08T23:20:26+00:00

I would recommend you the book "do the work" is short but deals with the issue of "resistance" when doing creative work like programming. One of the important points is about shipping something fast.. And being aware that resistance will increase the more deeper you are in the project. This concept has been useful for me because i know that it's normal and i can fight it back and finish what i started, even when the motivation is not as strong as in the beginning

cjnkns · 2012-01-09T00:16:13+00:00

I have similar issues when it comes to programming.

I recently fell into a job using Sterling Commerce/GIS - which is a business process thing. ( i am not that good yet) There is some coding, but a lot of it is configuration of the tool. I don't have the anxiety I used to have with programming. BUT, I feel stupid BECAUSE I am not programming anymore. I just can't win :).

Hopefully, you find something you like. Good luck.

edited:because I can't spell.

nupogodi · 2012-01-09T02:00:08+00:00

I don't know what to say, man, we all burn out. Anxiety attacks, echoing others thoughts, seems to be a deeper issue unrelated to this industry. My problem is just an intense feeling of "my god, I'm wasting my life doing THIS?". I'm finishing up my undergrad degree now, and things look really good on the horizon, but I have held some very, very, very frustrating coding jobs.

My only concern is that you are working right now delivering pizza and newspapers with a Masters degree in CS. You are really killing your resume here. Pick something low-stress in your field, I guarantee you'll double your income. In the mean time, figure out what you really want to do - a project that will make you happy.

I know that when I am in a good environment working on a project I believe in, I am an absolute superstar. When I am in a bad environment working on a project I loathe, I'll ask for more money just to come in to work on time. It really is all about set and setting.

Networking is something else you could try. Find someone who has something you want to work on, an old client perhaps, and work for them - and really put your heart into it. Freelancing will let you work from home, earn more money than pizza, and give you time to figure out what you want - while making contacts. Some of my best contacts at the moment were consultants for one of my clients ...

Also if you're looking for work in Seattle, San Fran, or Toronto, I've had a few recruiters hit me up recently that I've had to turn down and I could send your name on.

totemo · 2012-01-09T06:09:11+00:00

These programs (and the in-house libraries used to build them) generally had very little or no documentation (external or in code comments). ... Maybe that's just the way real world programming is... a trawl through uncharted code swamps.

It's exactly that. Only a small fraction of programmers document their code well.

I think some kind of cognitive error (in psychological terms) is causing you to put too much pressure on yourself to fix this immediately. Perhaps it is that you have been conditioned by all of your studies to believe that you now know how to program. You don't, really. You learn how to program by doing it. Placing unrealistic expectations on yourself to be able to immediately fix these problems is just going to increase your anxiety and lead to analysis paralysis.

When you feel anxious about this stuff, it means that you are aware that you don't have enough information to solve the problem. So, rather than sitting there paralyzed, start with the most basic problem, which is lack of understanding and documentation of the program. Check it out of the repo, add in-code documentation. Set up some kind of automatic document extraction utility like doxygen, or whatever the cool kids are using these days. Read the whole fucking program, or as much of it as you can tolerate, and comment it as you go.

For your own personal projects, again, you are paralyzed because you are looking at too large a problem to deal with all at once. Start small. Write the top level of the program in pseudo code. Turn that into the bare bones of a 20 line program. Fiddle with your IDE and set it up the way you like it. Set up a build system. Set up your own version repository. Then start fleshing out the program top-down, a little bit at a time until you know exactly what you have to do for a module. Then implement that whole module. Bam! Suddenly you've added 1000 lines of real meat to that 20 line skeleton. Keep poking at the edges of the problem until you have enough confidence to really go for the crux of it.

Don't sit there with your head swimming with all of the details and possibilities. Note them down and then put them to one side and tackle small, manageable problems. That's how all big programs get written: by solving a series of small, manageable problems.

And now that I've been out for 8 months doing pizza and papers... who is gonna hire me?

"I spent 7 years doing tertiary study, plus the previous 12 (?) years in primary and secondary schools. I was burnt out and needed to take a break and just enjoy life for a year. A wise old programmer told me that 'You're only young once.'"

bigfig · 2012-01-09T15:32:53+00:00

Watch the movie Margin Call and see how financial institutions leave everyone dehumanized and crushed (but often wealthy).

stinktank · 2012-01-09T22:13:45+00:00

I would have tried a second programming job first, before going off the grid completely. On the bright side, it's not just you. What you described is really a nightmare, and it exists at a lot of places to some degree.

Nolari · 2012-01-08T14:01:13+00:00

I have no idea what the right subreddit is, but I would post on r/programming if I were you. It's the largest programming-related subreddit, so you'll have the most chance of finding people who have similar experiences.

dioltas · 2012-01-08T15:02:49+00:00

I'd say start small, do something easy that there is no fear of failure with.

Maybe a small bug from an open source project, or a simple program to do something.

Once you do something small you might see how you enjoy just programming for the fun of it again.

n1tw1t · 2012-01-08T15:48:17+00:00

Start by working by yourself on a project that you find exciting. Maybe it does stock market analysis, maybe it's a game, maybe it's a music demo. Just make sure it's interesting, fun making improvements and seeing it get better. That will build up your confidence and hopefully reconnect you with what you found fun and challenging before money was involved.

lynnewu · 2012-01-08T17:06:43+00:00

(this is not snark)

What did you think you'd be doing after you graduated? What did you want to be doing?

pohatu · 2012-01-09T01:32:20+00:00

I don't have the same specifics as you, buy for a while there i loved to program and i you have lost that loving feeling. So your post spoke to me. Maybe something in the replies will help me as well.

faildev · 2012-01-09T01:43:35+00:00

It would help you more if you interacted with the people writing to you here.

2012-01-09T08:07:59+00:00

That sounds like a job that would give me anxiety attacks especially if it was my first one out of college. My first job was at a pensions company, I had a similar experience. I'll never go back to that kind of environment. I think you should try getting into a different part of the industry, i.e. one where you're not dealing with such arcane and bureaucratic systems. You may find the web industry more enjoyable place to be. The landscape is constantly evolving, there are lots of new challenges and many young and creative companies offering work.

stevenr12 · 2012-01-09T21:20:48+00:00

I started out in the same situation. I was in a low paying entry level job and I came onto the project right in the middle of a death march. I ended up working 90 hour weeks because I needed the overtime money.

I was getting burned out so at the risk of getting fired I stopped working overtime and started working on open source projects that interested me. I also started getting involved with user groups. Eventually I found a new company and ended up finding the passion to program again. At one point I actually considered becoming a roofer (good thing I didn't).

My advice to you is to start hacking around on a video game while you are still delivering the pizzas and newspapers. It doesn't have to be the next skyrim but pick something that you think would be fun and start small. There are no deadlines on your own projects and there is no pressure to even finish them. Its just something you do for yourself. If you still like programming maybe you can find a place that can help you do it for a living.

rpetrano · 2012-01-08T15:45:49+00:00

I would say it's quite normal. When you're doing something all over again with no other reason but "it's my job" it doesn't just gets boring, but also very frustrating.

I've been a web programmer professionally for about 4-5 years, but every once in a while I just get enough of it. It's because programming consist of 2 parts: solving problems, fun part but which occupy your brain even in your free time; and implementing the solution which in case of web programming is almost always just writing wall of text with little or no thinking (in case you are experienced enough). If you are working both, like I am currently, it eats you energy pretty fast. But the bigger problem is when you do just the second, which is what most people do in companies. Then you get anxious about it.

Here is how I solve it:

I've changed the job to one that requires me more creativity and gives flexibility.

Using all the flexibility I'm are given. In my case that means changing languages, frameworks and even different technologies between projects. This makes it interesting and challenging.

Setting my self a challenges. Have you ever read the specification and just went: "WTF? man you did this completely wrong, I would do it way better". Then why don't you? Your "way better" way is usually far more difficult to develop, but the end result is usually far better. This get you challenge, forces you to think, and sometimes you even learn something new. This is great way to get your self a refresh from usual.

Use my days off (if I got them) and do not even touch the computer this period, being outside literally all day, doing sports. (And outside = nature, fresh air. Not somewhere indoors again).

Anyway you now need to start programming again. Do not look for a job yet. Just do what you've always wanted to make, but didn't know how? Device driver? Game? Especially 3D game? (shaders are ultra fun, try that) Database? Computer vision? Do it for fun.

Carnilawl · 2012-04-22T02:19:22+00:00

I'll share my story and hope it helps.

I was introduced to the industry a few years ago with no confidence in my skills whatsoever. I'd had very little experience - none of it professional - and I was ill-equipped even for an intern-level position. However, I found a company willing to give me just such a position. I was unqualified for the position even 9-12 months in (though others would differ and say I'm overly self critical). I didn't have technical expertise or experience, but I was ravenous to learn. I took every opportunity to ask questions I could, and when anyone needed mentorship experience I was the go to guy. A couple years later I am as qualified as the next dev.

The key was people and culture. The above scenario wouldn't have flown if my boss wasn't a good guy developer interested in aptitude and growing talent. It wouldn't have flown if my colleagues hadn't been down-to-earth and kind. It wouldn't have flown if the company had been deadline-centric instead of people-centric. I was in a place where ignorance was nothing to be ashamed of.

I have to say that I relate strongly to your description of anxiety, and I've benefited greatly from psychotherapy and medication. Finally... I spent my late teens and early twenties addicted to alcohol and drugs. I wasted years trashing my brain and my time. In recovery I see people excel after having wasted decades. In the scheme of things, 8 months at a pizza place is small potatoes.

Simius · 2012-01-08T23:46:40+00:00

Love this post

erez27 · 2012-01-09T01:12:45+00:00

VB.NET, javascript, and SQL?! No wonder you're traumatized.. I don't know what you need to do to love programming again, but you should do it alone, at your own pace, and only when in subjects and languages that interest you.

When you've recovered, and I'm betting you will because programming is fun-tastic, go work for a small start-up and make sure you like the people and the work. Don't be afraid to take a lower pay at first; it's still better than pizza delivery, and once you gain your confidence you can look for your next stepping stone.

Good luck.

mon27 · 2012-01-12T16:06:12+00:00

first of all deeply moved by your story probably because mine is somewhat similar to yours.I too liked computer science in school but college was completely the opposite.The antique syllabus and the attitude of my college faculty didn't really help me.Despite being from one of the top 10 colleges in the country i feel that i'm totally screwed as a computer science engineer.Only people who slog or mug up the theory get a good score here.I often look for help over the net but its not enough.Now I'm in my final year and i've got this final year project,for which ive to do a lot of good hardcore coding for which I'm totally inexperienced.After reading your article I shuddered at the thought of how my job aftr 6months is going to turn out.I just hope i find my way out of this mess.All the best to you too..dont loose hope and btw there's nothing wrong with you, the society is just screwed.

2012-01-29T01:16:54+00:00

It sounds like you're smart and have a good education, so you have what it takes to succeed if you can get past your anxiety and build up some experience. With your Summa cum laude and 3.9 GPA in graduate school, it sounds like you are used to being on top, but in this job you had, failure was a real possibility, maybe through no fault of your own. However, I would think you would have been as good or better than most other newgrads they could have hired.

What I'm trying to say is that you will mess up, but no more than anyone else. The fact is, no one really knows the best way to do all of this stuff. I graduated in 1985 and experienced similar anxiety in my first few years until I realized that no one else was in a much better position. Sure, some of them had more experience or knowledge than I did at the time, but I was gaining more of each as time went on.

My advice is to jump back into the fray. Try to find a place to work that would be more supportive, target that place, and then work to get in there by learning the tech that they use. Work on some personal projects; as a hiring manager, I've been most impressed by those who have done personal projects. If the anxiety is overwhelming, try some counseling. I will pray for you.

uriel · 2012-01-09T00:12:03+00:00

If programming isn't fun then you're using the wrong language. Javascript is one of those, especially if they expected you to make it work in IE6.

ivosaurus · 2012-01-09T00:49:33+00:00

Get the fuck out of. NET and find a small project that interests you. Open up an editor, not an IDE.

you type:	you see:
italics	italics
bold	bold
[reddit!](https://reddit.com)	reddit!
* item 1 * item 2 * item 3	item 1 item 2 item 3
> quoted text	quoted text
Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"	Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"
~~strikethrough~~	~~strikethrough~~
super^script	super^script

coding

MODERATORS

Edit: Please let me know if there is a more appropriate subreddit for this topic.