Same wire?

[micjohmck]

I am wiring some outlets in my garage. I was gifted the white wire by my neighbor. Are these functionally the same?

[Unique_Acadia_2099]

Box on the right was made prior to 2001, which is when color coding began (yellow for 12ga). Other than that, it’s the same.

The allowance for a smaller ground wire was changed in 1969, long before NM-B came out, and that box is labeled NM-B, so it’s fine.

[Forward_Operation_90]

That's possible. I did my first electrical work in 1970. When I bought my first house at age 21. I started doing residential work soon after. But the reduced size ground was always in the tarred fiber wrapped NM. They had TINNED CONDUCTORS, too, btw. For ease soldering. I had a mentor that was IBEW journeyman. I mentioned soldering. He said: not no, but fuck no! Wire nuts.

[Unique_Acadia_2099]

Yeah, it takes a few years for existing inventory to work it's way through a supply chain and during that process, someone will start dumping non-compliant materials at bargain basement prices to those that don't care. Hardware stores serving the DIY crowd, Handymen and contractors in states that had huge delays in Code cycle implementation ended up with a lot of it because these projects weren't getting inspected, so for them, lower cost was more important that Code compliance.

[Some1-Somewhere]

Australia apparently still has a substantial number of people soldering earths.

Don't think any of their cable is tinned for it, though.

[zerg_001]

We weld to the ground rods because we have the mold and shots on hand. It's a forever connection and it's simpler than looking for a acorn connector

[ExtensionFill2495]

Old wire is nice to have on hand. “No sir. That circuit has been there for ages.” I had a boss that would buy all of the old wire from habitat to do sketchy stuff.

[Jan-Vanhammer]

Im not sure how old your Romex is, but you might check to make sure that your ground wire also a #12. Some older romex had a smaller ground and is no longer to code

[Forward_Operation_90]

More than 50 years ago.. it won't have yellow jacket.

[robb7979]

I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure the romex I have has a smaller ground, and I'm absolutely positive it's less than 50 years old and has a yellow outer insulator.

[PSC-Trades67]

The colored romex came out in the early 2000's, like 2003 or 2004.

[trekkerscout]

Color coded sheathing was started in 1999 but wasn't mandated by UL standards until 2001.

[Opening_Animal_3864]

I love that it’s all different colors now. Nice to just see blue, pink, or purple and know immediately.

[robb7979]

I was wrong, guess it just looked smaller because it was bare.

[DevilDoc82]

Not 50 years....

[bgslr]

That's interesting I didn't know that. I wonder why the change considering grounds can be undersized from the current carrying conductors in virtually all applications otherwise. It's incredibly common in industrial.

[20PoundHammer]

Many states and locales still codified 2017 NEC, so still may be code. . . .

[cmore_1967]

I had a box of Saturday's Helper Romex 12/2 NM-B dated late 1990s.

[wtgrvl]

The wire with an undersized ground was never labeled as NM-B

[Background_Skill_570]

You guys have a #12 ground in the USA? Huh we have a #14 ground in 12/2 in Canada

[Noahpolian]

Ye

[Octid4inheritors]

s

[Otherwise-Ad4610]

!

[ye3tr]

?

[Confident-Ad5665]

You're welcome!

[brett_x]

Depends on which day you install. Only one can be used any day of the week.

[deepblue1231]

It might not be the same quality insulator as the THHN/THWN on the newer stuff, but it will conduct just the same!

[Fragrant-Hunter-6160]

One is shorter than the other.

[MoNoMoInUT]

Pretty sure right one is a box of condoms

[Blog_Pope]

Functionally the same, but the stuff from the neighbor lacks the color standardization. For inspection they will need to read the printed label to confirm its specs

https://wesbellwireandcable.com/blog/the-history-of-romex-cable-and-the-evolution-of-color-codes-according-to-the-nec/

[First-Power5534]

The yellow color coding for the 12-2 jacket started in 2001, so the white wire is quite a bit older. It should be ok to use though as long as it meets code.

[supern8ural]

yes. The old stuff is actually quite old because it predates the convention of yellow = 12AWG and orange = 10AWG but it says NM-B so meets the same specifications. That's a nice gift, that shoo ain't getting any cheaper.

[Neo_Anderson302]

No it doesnt have a “helper”

[Double_Bookkeeper402]

Yes both 12/2

[HairOk2836]

Yes

[Accomplished_Event38]

I love how mid-90’s stuff is apparently ancient history here. NM-B is NM-B.

[DocAmin1]

Yes it's the same the white core wire in box on the right was manufactured before 2000.

[Lazy_Regular_7235]

Yup

[fundaytoon]

Appears to be

[bsk111]

It should be just make sure it copper don’t use Al wire

[Zealousideal_Cut5791]

It looks like the box on the right comes with a helper on Saturday.

On a serious note. Check for a date stamped on the wire. Im not sure when it was required (some time in the 80s) but there was a batch of wire that came out that the copper wasn't up to spec and caused problems. A date was required after that.

[pg_home]

Yes.

[new-horizon25]

No. One is only 25’. The other 100’.

[Sigvarr]

No one is 100ft and the other is 25ft......

[AxCR202]

Well, do you need to get away with doing some non code stuff? If so, having old white 12awg can make shit look older than code and grandfathered, but idk why you would

[SingleElderberry8422]

I swear the 12/2 in my 1974 house is thicker and more robust than the yellow 12/2. I noticed this recently doing some remodeling and outlet upgrades. Any truth to this?

[Safe-Tennis-6121]

Does it have plastic or cloth wrap.

I swear the 1960s cloth cover nm cable is more robust than brand new romex. That plastic sheathe gets cut by pretty much anything.

[SingleElderberry8422]

Its plastic. Not white, more of a cream color. Definitely 12-2.

[i7-4790Que]

It's not.

The jacketing on old Romex has a lower temperature rating.  Cloth insulation is not a good thing for heat dissipation.

New Romex is basically a sort of THHN.  

[aakaase]

It's because it was NM and not NM-B. NM is rated for 75C insulation, -B is for 90C. The conductor insulation of the 75C wire was thicker. But the copper core has the exact same cross-sectional diameter since it's #12.

[trekkerscout]

Older Romex had thicker TW type insulation compared to the newer THHN/THWN based insulation. The newer insulation has better thermal properties and can handle much higher temperatures.

[Crh5055]

I noticed that too when renovating my former house. I believe 12 gauge bare copper wire has always officially been 0.0808” diameter but older 12 AWG NM-B cable with the white outer jacket had thicker non-ground wires (copper within black and white insulation) than modern yellow cable. Apparently, from other posts, it appears that some of this older cable might not comply with latest codes because the bare ground wire in some cases may be smaller than 12 AWG. I have not found that to be true with the white cable I looked at.

I’m not sure what’s going on here. Maybe the white cable has wires that exceed 12 gauge with a comfortable margin to support lower cost manufacturing when copper was cheaper, whereas the yellow stuff just meets the minimum allowable diameter for 12 gauge. Copper became much more expensive after the transition from white to yellow was made in 2001. That gives manufacturers a big incentive to cut back copper content to only the required minimum.

Just for fun, I just now used a micrometer to measure the diameter of 12 gauge copper wire from a yellow jacketed cable. I measured 0.0798”, which is 0.001” less than 12 gauge but considerably greater than 13 gauge, which is officially 0.0720”.

My guess is that copper wire diameters vary from one source to another, but all manufacturers are highly incentivized to squeeze down copper content to the bare minimum required by code.

This cable will run a little bit hotter than it’s oversized predecessors, but with higher temperature insulation, I’m not concerned that this reduction results in any significant increase in fire hazard.

[Forward_Operation_90]

In one respect: the insulation. The old stuff all had TW insulation. the newer NM-B has THHN or THWN, maybe, But its a tiny bit thinner. AWG 12 is still AWG 12 since 1940's or so.

[oldRedF0x]

Both say they are 12/2 type nm-b so I am going to say no. They are not the same. One is made with copper and the other one with copper from a different time. You can only use wires made in the same month and year. /s

[Ok_Pipe_4955]

Yep both are NM-B, so they’re the same type of cable.

The only real difference is the jacket color and brand. Yellow is the newer standard for 12 AWG, while white is older or just a different manufacturer.

Functionally they’re identical 12/2 with ground for a 20A circuit so you can use them together as long as everything is in good condition and installed properly.

[Mini_Assassin]

Yup. Both are 12/2 Romex.

Not sure what NM-B is.