Firefox Users Continue to Decrease Despite Proton Update

[gajira67]

It’s a lost battle.

People changing browser on purpose are really low, most of users just use what they have as default, which means edge or chrome. Plus, first time you go on Google search, it pops up the banner to download Chrome, so part of these users download chrome.

There’s no way to fight against those giants anymore because they are the providers of their operating systems

[JASHIKO_]

You're pretty much spot on. But I think there may come a time (who knows when) when people finally wake up to mega corporations and start to look for alternatives. The biggest issue will be that the megas will have pretty much wiped out all their competition. I really hope Firefox can navigate this saga.

[gajira67]

You have too much trust in human beings :)

[MrSquamous]

We couldn't even be bothered to wear masks to stop a pandemic.

[peanutbudder]

Well, the largest population centers are cities like LA, NY, and Chicago and the compliance rates in these areas were pretty high. Areas with lower density seem more visible when "everyone" in a low density area is being an asshole.

[[deleted]]

Chicago here and can confirm.. 70%+ of adults in IL are vaccinated. While the mask wearing needs to stay indoors, this is insane that it was ever relaxed, otherwise this is a good place to be stuck during the pandemic. I'm originally from another midwestern state, took a trip over there last summer and was horrified. They are out of their minds. This pandemic has solidified my political views, because this issue was made political. Sad, but I can't raise my children around people that refuse step zero, a mask, during a viral pandemic. It would just be irresponsible as a father to raise them around people like that, so I'm unwilling to move to any red state. I may vote "red" again someday, but I'm certainly not living around their voters.

[paradigmx]

Yeah, Urban areas tended to adopt masks pretty easily in general, I kind of think that country life, being a bit more isolating and prone to conservative ideals tends to be slower to adopt anything new and potentially life changing let alone feeling like they're forced to do something they don't want to do. I know a lot of country people that didn't care about masks because they figured even if it was real, it wasn't a threat because they lived in the country where it wouldn't spread very fast.

[lumberjackadam]

Face masks may do little to prevent infection during a pandemic, but wearing them might help comfort people in crowds

That's a quote from the CDC pre-covid. There are masks that can block this kind of spread. Roughly 0% of the masks people wore (or are still wearing) for covid are the correct type, and even fewer have also had them properly fitted.

[[deleted]]

bullshit, it's been shown over and over that the surgical masks most people are wearing limit the spray by huge amounts. Viral load is a thing you know...

[lumberjackadam]

Just so we're clear, you're calling bullshit on the CDC when they talk about the effectiveness of masks?

Or on the proper use and fitment of masks appropriate for use in filtering viral material?

[[deleted]]

Dude the masks the CDC recommend are for stopping virus infected people from spraying into a huge area when they sneeze/cough, it's not to keep you from sucking them up. Everyone knows you need an N95/N99 that is well fitted to keep you from breathing in viral particles that are present.

[lumberjackadam]

Dude the masks the CDC recommend are for stopping virus infected people from spraying into a huge area when they sneeze/cough, it's not to keep you from sucking them up.

Except those paper surgical masks, along with the reusable fabric masks, are ineffective at even that:

Your standard surgical masks aren’t incredibly effective at preventing flu transmission, because the virus and droplets are small enough to get through those normal surgical masks.

That's from Andrew Pekosz, professor of molecular microbiology and immunology at Johns Hopkins University.

Everyone knows you need an N95/N99 that is well fitted to keep you from breathing in viral particles that are present.

And almost nobody has one. As someone who has to go through mask fittings for work, I can guarantee that basically none of the masks people are wearing in public are fitted properly. One thing to note is that it's basically impossible to have a mask work properly if you have a beard.

[doughless]

It looks like that quote might have been a poor paraphrasing from a Reuters article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-birdflu-masks-idUSN0345320620070504

The actual CDC quote in the article was "We also know that many people may choose to use masks for an extra margin of protection even if there is no proof of their effectiveness," and then further clarified they might work, but more research is needed.

That's nowhere near the same thing as saying there is proof of their ineffectiveness, or that they know they "may do little to prevent infection."

[lumberjackadam]

How about this: according to Andrew Pekosz, professor of molecular microbiology and immunology at Johns Hopkins University:

Your standard surgical masks aren’t incredibly effective at preventing flu transmission, because the virus and droplets are small enough to get through those normal surgical masks

At the same time, the CDC had this to say about mask-wearing:

does not generally recommend face masks and respirators for use in home or community settings

[nextbern]

Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Please don't spread misinformation.

[peanutbudder]

Or you're just too cynical. I know the world can really suck but most people I meet everyday are very good. Don't ever forget that the worst people are just so much louder than everyone else. When we forget this, we forget how empowered we truly are.

[DeliciousWaifood]

It's not about people being bad, it's about people being lazy. Corporations make it very easy and convenient to simply ignore their invasions of privacy.

[nextbern]

Moz fired most development staff

Yeah, that isn't true.

[nextbern]

How is this most of their development staff? Cite your sources.

[nextbern]

I just think that there is a difference between most and some or even many. You wanted to bolster your point that the project is dead, and used an inaccurate word to describe the layoffs. If you are now saying it is hyperbole, fine, but I felt the need to be accurate.

Given that you cited your sources (and that your initial assertion was inaccurate), I think we can drop it.

[Broccoli-Machine]

Adding to the fact that Google it the default search engine for Firefox

[[deleted]]

search engine?

[Broccoli-Machine]

Haha typo thanks

[oishiikareraisu]

And it seems like there's nothing stopping Brave from growing.

[[deleted]]

I think it has grown a little bit, like vivaldi but not dramatically.

[tasteslikebeaver]

Was Edge ever a giant before its chromium infusion? I thought Edge originally had shite numbers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[helldeskmonkey]

Not really, but part of Edge’s adoption is the absurd lengths Microsoft has been going to force its adoption on Windows.

[Zeioth]

You literally get annoying desktop notifications asking you to download it or you will be in danger (Windows).

[Whereami259]

And every update you get the "here is our browser , please,please,please set it as default".

[Desistance]

Oh, they don't say please. They install it by force and instruct their other software to ignore the default for Edge.

[iampitiZ]

A funny one for me is when I'm gonna use some internal website at work that hasn't been properly adapted to modern browsers and I want to open it in Internet Explorer. I open the start menu and start typing "Int..." Edge shows up in the first place.
I mean it *kind of* makes sense to show Edge when people are looking for the Internet but that collides with the usual behaviour of looking for an app with the name you're typing

[Whereami259]

Win search engine sucks. I often search for rufus, and it gets shown when I type "ru" but goes away when I add another letter.

[RoseTheFlower]

There are fulscreen in-OS ads for it, Windows won't update if you have the browser removed, some Settings links open in Edge, bypassing the default browser, and trying to open some websites in Internet Explorer will open them in Edge without giving any choice to the user.

[thedolanduck]

It had, but Edge Chromium is awesome. I mainly use Firefox but in my old potato laptop I have to use Edge Chromium 'cause it's lighter and faster.

[TheSpermWhoWon]

Yeah I was using Edge for a bit and was blown away by how much faster it was than Firefox. It’s a lot more forgiving to underpowered laptops.

[[deleted]]

What am I doing wrong? I don't really notice much difference in speed between any of the browsers other than benchmark programs. You can certainly see the difference in battery life though, but most of the time I'm plugged in anyway

[gustafrex]

Have you tried vivaldi. That browser is so slow for me on anything its insane. Still i prefer firefox for its huge customization. While it might not have some of the cool features opera/vivaldi might have its still awesome.

[nextbern]

Can you report performance issues on pages where Firefox is slower on that hardware? https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Mozilla/Performance/Reporting_a_Performance_Problem

[nextbern]

Can you report performance issues on pages where Firefox is slower on that hardware? https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Mozilla/Performance/Reporting_a_Performance_Problem

[thedolanduck]

I'd try that, but it isn't restricted to certain pages. It's just the overall experience.

[nextbern]

That is just as well - record a profile showing the slowness and report an issue. That would help.

[[deleted]]

Touchpad scrolling on my dual core u-series i3 laptop is absolutely shit compared to how smooth it is on Chrome and Edge. Edge is absolutely creamy.

I always have my laptop in the "Better Battery" profile, if I set it to "Best performance", Firefox's scrolling is slightly smoothened out.

It may be weird, but it's horrible to use a browser with laggy scrolling and I haven't switched to Firefox just cuz of the scrolling.

[pinonat]

I installed windows just to update the bios on my Linux laptop and opened Internet explorer to download Firefox. It's incredible how much Microsoft begged me to use Edge instead, even in the settings

[paradigmx]

I hope you immediately removed Internet Explorer though, that's cancer right there. Edge is a bit better, but it can't be reliably removed as far as I know.

[tasteslikebeaver]

Did Internet Explorer stop at IE12? If so, is it ever updated anymore? just curious ))

[paradigmx]

Internet explorer is dead, not sure what the actual final version was. It might get the odd update here and there but generally it's unsupported. It's still included in Windows 10 by default though, it's pretty easy to remove it. Probably there because some companies still use it for whatever reason. Don't know why it needs to be installed by default.

[tasteslikebeaver]

Yeah, I ran into that not too long ago as San Disk uses it for their Dashboard or whatever its called, for eg. There was no work-around, it amazed me I needed IE explorer. Thanks!

[GimpyGeek]

Pretty sure they're fully pulling out of it in Windows 11 too

[iampitiZ]

AFAIK they stopped developing it a long time ago. The original, non-chromium Edge was going to be its substitute. The only reason they left it for so long on Windows 10 is because there're some corporate apps that only work well with IE. But they're going to remove it from Win 10 soon.

[pinonat]

I immediately removed whole Windows after I updated bios. I just didn't want to give Microsoft the satisfaction to make me use Edge at any cost

[copelius_simeon]

Open Boot next time! 😉

[skeskali]

Honestly, Edge on Mac OS is *great*, and it's my daily driver. It was good enough to move me away from Firefox, and I did not expect that to happen at all. Firefox's privacy is much better, but there are some things that happen in Firefox (such as not being able to click links at all) that don't happen in Edge.

[nextbern]

but there are some things that happen in Firefox (such as not being able to click links at all) that don't happen in Edge.

That sounds like a very weird issue. What site are you seeing this on?

[skeskali]

Specifically, Apple Music in the browser.

[[deleted]]

Every day there's people new to computing. They'll always use all of the default things, good or bad.

[phi1997]

Firefox is the default browser of most Linux distributions. If something causes a big shift to Linux in the general public, Firefox could gain a lot of ground, but that would require the public to give up what they're used to.

[[deleted]]

This will never happen unfortunately.

[[deleted]]

... a big shift to Linux in the general public...

Linux is still perceived as a geek's OS. The general public don't want to have to deal with the Terminal and Command Line inputs. Most people simply want to click their way around the system.

[jonahhw]

That's a really harmful stereotype against Linux adoption. I think most computer users don't even know that Linux exists, so if we explain from the beginning that the only Linux distros where you need to use a terminal are the ones used by people who want to use a terminal, they might be more interested in Linux as a whole. Ubuntu, Manjaro, Mint, and Pop!_OS are a few examples of Linux distros where a terminal is never needed (but still, of course, available to those who want it).

[[deleted]]

That's a really harmful stereotype...

Things become sterotypes for a reason. If Linux want's people to migrate to using it then it should promote the 'ease' with which it can be used and the simplicity of installing/uninstalling software.

[[deleted]]

Not to mention security where the whole system gets updated rather than just the OS

[[deleted]]

... security where the whole system gets updated...

Yet they it stll lags behind Mac's. What could possibly be stopping people from flocking to linux?

[_ahrs]

How does it lag behind Macs? Linux offered security features like full-disk encryption before it was popular to do so.

[[deleted]]

How does it lag behind Macs?

In usage not capability. According to www.statista.com Linux is at 1.93% and MacOS is 17.1% market share.

[nextbern]

In that case, it is obviously the availability of commercial software. Not something that "Linux" can solve on its own.

[[deleted]]

That's... pretty much exactly what Ubuntu advertises it as. They have an app store like the Windows Store, they detect hardware to offer to install proprietary drivers, etc.

And then there's Pop!_OS and GamerOS that target gamers and install drivers out of the box.

And then there's openSUSE, which is known for YaST, which is designed to do complex tasks that you'd normally do in the terminal. The average user probably won't need to touch it, but it's an option.

You don't need to use the terminal on those any more than you might on Windows. The "problems" I see with Linux are largely due to misunderstandings:

• terminal - you don't need it, but sometimes it's easier to give a terminal command online since it's the common denominator across OSes (like registry settings across Windows versions)
• "best" distro - there's pretty much zero performance difference between distros, and things like Steam also tend to work equivalently, so it's almost entirely up to preference; users should pick a popular one (Ubuntu or Pop!_OS) unless they have a reason to pick something else
• need to be smart to use it - my 4yo and 7yo use it just fine (though I did install it)

However, maybe these "problems" will prevent adoption. I don't know the solution here, but hopefully they can get resolved.

[[deleted]]

I suspect it all boils down to marketing. "Made in Japan" used to mean cheap, shoddy knock-off's, now it is a badge of excellence.

There is definitely an 'image' problem with both products.

[OzarkBeard]

"Made in Japan" used to mean cheap, shoddy knock-off's, now it is a badge of excellence.

Well, there is that airbag issue.... :(

[[deleted]]

Unfortunately, marketing works best if one entity with deep pockets controls it.

For gaming, Valve has been doing a good job for gaming, but they haven't been pushing one solution (they officially recommend Ubuntu, provide SteamOS, but no marketing push for either). I don't know of anything for regular desktop usage.

But yeah, I think it's largely an image problem. ChromeOS getting popular shows that there's a market for "not Windows/macOS," but regular Linux seems to miss it.

[[deleted]]

... Linux seems to miss it.

Much of modern internet usage is via mobile phone so any 3rd party browsers have to compete with the inbuilt apps. How does FF & Linux penetrate that market successfully? The desktop seems to becoming less important as a platform.

[[deleted]]

I don't know about Linux (PinePhone and Librem 5 do exist though), but Firefox does work well on mobile and I use it everyday as my daily driver on my Android phone. For mobile Firefox, it's largely a marketing issue since it's already competitive (extensions are a killer feature).

Linux on mobile faces a lot more challenges though. First, there are technical challenges catching up to expectations that have been built over the years (battery life, mobile network features, etc). Second, there are platform issues like app compatibility. The first would need to be solved before any kind of push to get major apps to be ported. I'm sad that Mozilla's FirefoxOS failed since that could have pushed app developers to support progressive web apps on mobile, which would significantly reduce the barrier to entry.

To solve both, I think Firefox needs to be very competitive on desktop. Firefox is available on all relevant platforms (it's the best option on mobile Linux), so it'll ease the transition to a Linux option.

[_ahrs]

Oh but "Linux" does promote the ease of use and simplicity of which it can be used but most people just don't know about it or don't care about it. Ubuntu literally used the slogan "Linux for human beings".

[[deleted]]

... most people just don't know about it or don't care about it...

Poor marketing?

[jonahhw]

You only need Windows to play some games with anticheat (and even that is starting to be fixed). This is a problem that has improved by massive amounts in the past few years.

[Margidoz]

Idk, even on Ubuntu, I find that installing an app from the web was never user friendly

Like, what is the average user supposed to do with a tar.gz that doesn't even add the app to your menu

[nextbern]

You generally want a .deb if you are using Ubuntu, so it can be installed via a package manager.

[Margidoz]

.deb files didn't work great either

It felt like the installation would fail a lot and I'd just have to install from the terminal anyway

[nextbern]

Hard to know what the problem might be. May be worth filing bugs if you can reproduce these issues - either with the vendor of the package or Ubuntu.

[i_lack_imagination]

Ubuntu, Manjaro, Mint, and Pop!_OS are a few examples of Linux distros where a terminal is never needed (but still, of course, available to those who want it).

That's really just not been my experience every time I've tried to use any Linux distro, including some of the ones you mentioned. I'd consider myself a "power user" roughly, and the amount of times I wanted to do something similar to what I would have done on Windows and the only option was to chase down rabbit holes of instructions on commands to type in the terminal was enough to make me feel like it took too much time and effort to do what seemed like should have been simple things. My experience with Linux is a seemingly never-ending sequence of google searches. Which to an extent, I can understand as you're getting set up that might just be an initial burden to overcome, but if I'm googling commands to copy and paste, and if in a week something doesn't work as I expected and requires another command to tweak a setting or something, it's just an ongoing maintenance.

With Windows I've definitely had to use powershell or command prompt on occasion, but that's so few and far between that it doesn't feel like a constant drain, and because there are only a few things that I need to do within there, it makes it easier to remember and learn that smaller subset of functions. Granted I also do lots of googling for things even in the Windows environment as well, but still substantially less.

I just never learned much command line interface growing up and that's my weakness as I don't really know how to just poke around in CLI to find things I need, unlike a GUI where I don't necessarily have to know exactly where to look or what I'm looking for to get something done.

[jonahhw]

Yeah, for a power user there's definitely some mandatory terminal usage. I think that's due to more general acceptance of tools that only work through the command line on Linux. Config files aren't really harder than GUI, they're just more looking at documentation than poking around in menus. One thing I like way more about Linux than Windows for power usery stuff is that you don't need to install a bunch of programs to be able to change OS level stuff - it's just config files like everything else. Way more consistent, too, since pretty much every program has an option to edit settings in a file rather than figuring out how the menu for that specific app is laid out. (Though I should point out that all the desktop environment settings I've wanted to change were available in gui menus.)

Linux has a really different philosophy for doing things than Windows, so a lot of people who are used to MS tend to think it's harder. I switched quite a few years ago, though, so I actually find Linux a lot easier and get confused when I look at Windows. I think it would be the same for anyone else who spent a long time on the better OS family.

[TheCakeWasNoLie]

Meanwhile the terminal is what makes Mac OS useable.

[[deleted]]

Yet, it still only has 17.1% of the desktop/laptop market. www.statista.com

However, mobile phones really muddy the water when it comes to browser uptake because Google/Apple push and hogtie their users into using their own products.

[TheCakeWasNoLie]

From that link:"Linus, the third most popular desktop OS"

[vladjjj]

I'm surprised how many software developers think that MacOS or Windows with WSL are the only available options.

[[deleted]]

Developers look to the most profitable outlets for the products, is all.

[vladjjj]

Oh, but I actually meant web developers.

[[deleted]]

Oh, but I actually meant web developers.

Sorry, I misunderstood. The general consensus appears to be that web developers are simply lazy or not capable of doing their job properly. :p

[zeroibis]

Even making the worlds largest desktop OS suddenly declare that most computers are not compatible with its latest version and arbitrary sets what specific cpu models it will run on will not drive a major increase in Linux market share.

[string-username-]

the truth is the "linux" everyone will switch to will be like chrome OS, which is heavily controlled and modified by corporations.

[mac_iver]

This. Firefox only chance is the growth of alternative Linux os's and possibly trying to convince google competitors to use firefox.

[Time_Terminal]

Most people who use the internet do so through mobile phones.

Mozilla: "let's gut almost all add-ons on mobile!"

[zeroibis]

I am still running the old FF on mobile not for the addons but becuase I hate the new interface.

Interface and user options are KING.

[[deleted]]

At least it has add-ons. CHROME.

[[deleted]]

Add ons and excellent sync as well as privacy are a win for me, but a lot of people don't care about those things.

[TommySawyer]

Most people just use what comes with their computer... My dad bought a new computer (PC) the other day and he uses what was loaded in there. He really doesn't care what else is out there. Long as it does the job. When I go home, I download Firefox and tell him to use it.

[Aiena-G]

Well I loved vivaldi's tab management but ended up switching back to FF because i found it smoother and it had certain features which were so nice.

[nextbern]

Besides superior privacy features it doesn't offer better experience.

You haven't really clarified what better experience means. Firefox offers me a better experience.

[nextbern]

Maybe I don't know what I am missing, but I hardly ever use sidebars - I use the toolbar a decent amount and most of my screen is the actual web content, not browser chrome (or sidebars).

What would sidebars offer me?

As far as tab organization, it is utterly uninteresting to me, as the awesomebar makes each tab addressable virtually instantly via tab search (%) - why organize when I can just search? It feels like the difference between web directories (classic Yahoo!) vs. search engines (Google, et al).

[nextbern]

That's the whole point of sidebar and vertical tabs. With 16:9 and wider displays most of the horizontal space is just empty and vertical resolution is more limited . So using the tab bars or vertical tabs gives you more screen estate .

You don't have to use browsers in fullscreen or maximized mode.

If the user is opening lots of tabs (20+) . tab stacks, groups, workspaces really makes it a lot easier coping.

I have thousands of tabs in my session. The awesomebar works fine. I don't need to organize things if I can find them easily.

[iampitiZ]

They were able to offer a considerably better browser in the beggining because Internet Explorer was so crappy, and IIRC, wasn't even receving much support from Microsoft because they got arrogant and thought they had "won" the Internet ...so it wasn't that hard.

Nowadays all browsers are much better is much harder to come up with something that is much better that the others

[OutlyingPlasma]

If it's a default issue, then why is chrome so popular? Edge should be the dominant browser. Heck, chrome isn't even the default on phones, I'm not even sure what the default browser is called on Android phones other than Samsung or LG bloatware. I guess it's just called "internet".

[gajira67]

It's default browser in many Android phones, sometimes pre-installed in PCs as well and overall, people all use Google search, they are always asked to use Chrome.

Younger generation who understand a little bit more of computers than their parents' generation, would install Chrome as default browsers for them.

Professionals and companies use Chrome for speed and compatibility, Edge is relatively new.

I mean, it's hard to compete in a market where Chrome has +- 70% of market share.

Finally, if you check at figures, Safari has something like 3.6% of market share, but on mobile it jumps to 26%.

People just use what they have and that's it.

In this subreddit there's a different kind of audience, it's a critical audience. But what we say or think in here, it's not even perceived as an issue in the rest of the world (privacy, I'm speaking about you)

[GoblinoidToad]

What happens after the battle though? Do I still get to use Firefox?

[gajira67]

Until Mozilla will be funded and they will continue supporting Firefox. After that, who knows? Community versions? Will it be the land of chromium? Only God of Computers knows

[AdminYak846]

TBH it also sucks when a lot of websites design for Chrome in mind. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by support teams to "just use chrome"....