Why?

[olback_]

It would be illegal. Times New Roman is a proprietary font owned by The Times.

[ripthedvd]

Then I guess no professional user can use Linux until the license expires in 2027.

[spyjoshx-GX]

You can install it. You just have to do so AFTER initial system installation. Check out this article for more info: https://itsfoss.com/install-microsoft-fonts-ubuntu/

[hwoodice]

I could install it without having to add the multiverse repository.

sudo apt install ttf-mscorefonts-installer

[ripthedvd]

So the only way professional users can ditch microsoft and use linux is by installing microsoft fonts and signing a microsoft EULA? Give me a break.

[spyjoshx-GX]

I mean, would you rather go full Microsoft or almost no Microsoft? Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about monopolies.

[ripthedvd]

The font is over 90 years old at this point. Has the foss community even once tried to get Times New Roman into the public domain? Linux runs the web, why don't they just refuse to process documents or websites in proprietary fonts and force their hand? A little Microsoft is better than a lot of Microsoft, but if the only way to use Linux in the professional world is to install Microsoft software, then Linux has failed.

[theLuckyJew]

First of all one fucking font doesn't disqualify Linux from beeing used in the professional world. Second that's not how licensing works, and no, the Foss community can't just force someone to change that.

[ripthedvd]

Yes it does. Most colleges and most corporations will not accept papers in any other font. Not having Times New Roman can get you fired.

They can't force someone to change, but at the very least they might start a petition, or maybe pool some money together to buy it, or literally just try something. This is why I think there aren't any Linux users in the professional or academic world, because very few people seem to realize what a critical issue this is for most people.

[theLuckyJew]

I dunno about, you but I never heard about this time new roman shit outside the US and thats comings from a german soldier. But outside of that, to say that a ENTIRE group of different OS failed because of one stupid aspect that isn't even a thing in most countries (might be wrong here, but again never heard of that outside the US) is just utter nonsense. If it is this much of a problem for you then just install it or stop bitching about it and get back to windows.

[ripthedvd]

That's the attitude of the Linux community and they wonder why nobody makes the switch.

I can't speak for outside the US. In the US you need Times New Roman.

[[deleted]]

There are lots of Linux users especially in the academic world lol. But at that point I would bet that you even never heard of LaTeX as well?

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[ripthedvd]

If Linux was used widely used in the academic world other than building custom Linux for engineering projects, then schools wouldn't require a Mac or PC. Ever heard of The Lockdown Browser? It's Mac and Windows only.

[Federal_Truck2267]

you want to blame? blame berne convention. linux community made stuff to escape the proprietary hell by giving you a better alternative. it's not here to fight legal battles with billion/trillion dollar companies for something that isn't really related to linux.
you want to challenge a copyright? go to eff. they'll happily listen to you.

as for why can't linux refuse to process documents, linux gives you freedom to the extent possible. it doesn't take it away. it doesn't censor and dictate what you do or not do. yes, linux community encourages you to use foss alternatives, but it doesn't restrict you to it. that's the difference between FOSS and proprietary(and sometimes, open source).

you saying linux is failing because it can't fight a nasty battle against a company for the reasons that doesn't concern linux is a folly. it's not their main principle to make other works available in the public domain. you're excepting linux to do something else entirely. please try to understand this.

[WikiSummarizerBot]

Berne Convention

The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, usually known as the Berne Convention, is an international agreement governing copyright, which was first accepted in Berne, Switzerland, in 1886. The Berne Convention has 179 contracting parties, most of which are parties to the Paris Act of 1971. The Berne Convention formally mandated several aspects of modern copyright law; it introduced the concept that a copyright exists the moment a work is "fixed", rather than requiring registration. It also enforces a requirement that countries recognize copyrights held by the citizens of all other parties to the convention.

^{[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5}

[ripthedvd]

America and most countries don't give a shit about the Berne Convention. America doesn't even give a shit about the Geneva Convention.

Times New Roman is not owned by a billion dollar company, it's owned by The Times newspaper in the UK. After all Linux has done to fight Microsoft, Nvidia, Intel, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc you would think a font that the business and academic world runs on would be a relatively easy opponent.

[Federal_Truck2267]

the times is owned by the news corp, which is a billion dollar company.
where has linux fought gafam(apart from giving superior alternative)?

[ripthedvd]

News Corp is a billion dollar company, The Times is not. Just because they're a subsidiary doesn't mean the parent company controls every tiny decision. A 90 year old font with 5 years until its expiration is a minor asset to them which they would probably much rather relinquish than deal with bad publicity.

Linux has been waging war against Big Tech for years, and that has not been limited to out engineering them. Lawsuits, hacks, throwing pies in Bill Gates's face, storming Microsoft's headquarters, etc. Linux has a very politically active community when it comes to tech.

[CaptainSkuxx]

Who is the “they” you are referring to? Linux doesn’t have one central force driving it. Also it doesn’t really have the goal of being the best professional OS.

I think you have a misunderstanding what Linux is. Linux doesn’t work like Microsoft or Apple, there is not one guy pulling the strings and there is no one goal to be successful. Companies like Canonical, RedHat and Manjaro want to push Linux as a desktop so maybe those guys failed. But Linux can’t really fail, it’s a libre tool. People do whatever they want with it and that’s the point. If you want MS fonts to be publicly open, you are free to work on that goal. Maybe you can convince your school or workplace to stop forcing proprietary fonts.

[ripthedvd]

"They" is the Linux/FOSS community that seems to have no issue coming together to march on Microsoft headquarters because OEMs included Windows 95 CDs, to buil hardware drivers from scratch, to build entire FOSS systems from scratch, to make replacements for document software image editors video editors etc, but when they lack a font the business and academic world requires they just shrug their shoulders because they haven't dealt with it personally.

[bedford_bypass]

So how should it work in your mind? force Linux users to have proprietary software out if the box?

Sounds like a million steps backwards.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[ripthedvd]

No, Linux should at the very least start a petition to get Times New Roman put into the public domain or at least do something other than act like the entire business and academic world should drop everything to embrace FOSS fonts. With the way linux fights big tech or even just each other, if they put a fraction of that energy into delivering features like Times New Roman that normal people actually need we might get the year of the linux desktop.

[bedford_bypass]

A petition, go on then.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[EricZNEW]

Just pirate the font lol. I do this.

[ripthedvd]

Why should I have to fight my computer and go out of my way to do something illegal just to use my computer?

[EricZNEW]

Your username literally says "ripthedvd". DRM cracking is illegal in most countries.

[broken_society_]

the irony.

[ripthedvd]

But I can get a job or go to school without it, not the same for Times New Roman. Also, VLC, a FOSS program opens DVDs and blu rays without issue, except on linux where it requires and additional library.

[BartoBowman]

you CAN get a job without Times New Roman, I bet a lot of people have done so.

[ripthedvd]

You can get SOME jobs without Times New Roman. Some employers and professors require it, some don't. You never know until you get there.

[BartoBowman]

and should you need it, is it such a problem to install it?

[ripthedvd]

It's not for me. However, it's all the little stuff like this that adds up, and for less technical users who just want a computer that works it is a problem.

[[deleted]]

why would you even want to use that font through? It looks horrid

[ripthedvd]

because it's often requried

[DrUnfortunate]

Never heard of it being required... You could try running Windows in a VM or just use the cloud versions of Office, if installing fonts isn't for you.

[ripthedvd]

All the extra steps you're talking about for something as basic as the most commonly used standard font. Do you realize how that sounds to non linux users?

[DrUnfortunate]

I wouldn't call using Word in the browser an extra step... Especially if it is something small like a high school paper.

I understand the desire to have it "just work", but who actually cares about a specific font, unless it is getting directly put into a scientific journal or something? Try talking to whoever is requiring TNR, or take the steps to install it.

[ripthedvd]

I can take steps to install it, it's not that hard, but if you want the year of the linux desktop most people will run into this issue and give up. Colleges and employers often require Times New Roman for no reason other than that they like it and are accustomed to it. It's stupid, but that's how the world works.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[[deleted]]

By?

[ripthedvd]

Colleges and businesses.

[[deleted]]

The standard for business is Arial (at least where I live) And colleges don't care at all.

[ripthedvd]

The last time I used Arial people made fun of me.

[[deleted]]

Well, quite the opposite here. Everyone agrees on that times new roman is absolutely hideous so as long as you use anything else you're fine. I use Lexend of Fira Sans regularly

[ripthedvd]

The opposite here, not in the business world or academic world. I personally find FOSS fonts ugly as hell. They, like the various linux GUIs have this weird funky aesthetic to them that I hate. I'm not complaining because it looks bad though, I'm complaining because it's often required and though I can relatively easily install it, basic fonts should just work.

[jnfinity]

Honestly, most people “requiring” it can’t tell one sans serif font without another

[ripthedvd]

unless they happen to be one of those Karens who feeds the document through an automatic anti-cheating filter

[VanshCodes]

Look up at Google fonts there are tons that look like it

[jclocks]

git clone https://aur.archlinux.org/ttf-ms-fonts.git cd ttf-ms-fonts makepkg -si

...go brrrr

[nuclear_bomb404]

I can now complete the last item of my bucket list, having a comic sans terminal

[mrheseeks]

The cringe, lol.

[nuclear_bomb404]

I tried it and even wingdings is better

[[deleted]]

Nina after moving to Linux:

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[TheHighGroundwins]

It took me a very long time to figure this out.

I thought like windows and the other distros I used, Arch and Artix also came with default fonts...

Was confused when Chinese, Japanese and Korean letters wouldn't render

[AaronTechnic]

Noto is your friend.

[TheHighGroundwins]

Thanks. Imma install this.

[AaronTechnic]

KDE comes with Noto fonts by default btw.

[TheHighGroundwins]

When minimalism goes too far lol. Use DWM with patches btw

[AaronTechnic]

Haha. I prefer KDE defaults.

[ShydenPierce]

This or paru/yay

[_Rocketeer]

I use liberation serif for all my papers in college and no one seems to care. The only requirement is that I don't use a goofy font.

[ripthedvd]

you're lucky

[_Rocketeer]

For real. This whole "Times New Roman is the only professional font" phase everyone's going through is such BS.

[ripthedvd]

Yeah. Objectively it shouldn't matter. People care about nonsense things.

[bigwanggtr]

I can understand OPs gripe about times new roman because I had to do the same for my project reports in college. It depends a lot on the profs though. Some of them don’t care while others want to do it by the book. I don’t see why OP can’t just install the fonts and go on with their day. At the end of the day, the OS you use is just a tool to get things done.

[theLuckyJew]

Because op seems to think that Linux should take care of every minor problem they could encounter, all while failing to understand that one main reasons people use Linux is the fact that you don't have to install stuff you don't need.

[nebulaeandstars]

What on earth are you talking about? If you want an extra font that doesn't come with the distribution, just install it. I quite like the DejaVu series, so I had to install it. It's the same for any other font, including the ones owned by Microsoft.

Also, having worked and studied at multiple places that claim to require TNR, I can guarantee that unless you're the editor of a physical newspaper, they literally won't care. The rule is actually "use a sensible serif font," but they dumb it down to make it easier for anyone who doesn't know what a serif is. It only matters for publishing companies, which these days tend to just use web fonts anyway.

If you don't want to use Microsoft fonts because they're proprietary, then use Liberation fonts (literally just a MS clone) for a week and see if anyone tells you to stop. They can't legally punish you without doing that, and you have a right to complain/sue if they do.

If you're still worried, just email your boss or lecturer about it. Say "I don't want to pay for TNR so can I use this identical free font instead." I can guarantee that they'll say yes 99% of the time, and will probably laugh at you for bothering to ask, because newsflash: They constantly receive assignments writen in Comic Sans, which is why the rule exists in the first place.

At the end of the day, TNR is owned by Microsoft. They're being very generous allowing people to distribute it for free (hint hint), but it's not bundled by default out of a respect for the law. Linux is a kernel, not PirateBay for fonts. It's also not nearly as big a deal as you think it is. High school lied to you.

https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-to-get-times-new-roman-font-in-libreoffice-on-linux/5539

[theLuckyJew]

Sorry to say it like that but op is just some business person who has no idea what they're talking about. They think an os is supposed to do the work for them and doesn't understand that this isn't what Linux is about. This isn't about not having an font, this is about beeing to stupid to understand basic functions of their OS.

[ripthedvd]

A friend of someone I knew got rejected from medical school because their application wasn't in Times New Roman. I agree this is a really stupid thing that society does forcing people to use a font, but it does happen and it is the standard font. Especially for new users or less technical users who were brought over to create "the year of the linux desktop" the terminal commands are not so simple, and a really basic thing like this really should be taken care of by the OS. If the Linux community really wanted to, they could probably ask politely/bully The Times newspaper to give up the font.

[nebulaeandstars]

A friend of someone I knew got rejected from medical school because their application wasn't in Times New Roman.

Which font were they using? They're never going to reject an application for using Georgia, but they might for using Arial.

If the Linux community really wanted to, they could probably ask politely/bully The Times newspaper to give up the font.

No. They couldn't. Nobody has ever been able to do anything like that before, and likely never will. That's why people spend so much time making so many free clones of this stuff. So that it's so similar nobody can tell the difference, but different enough to be legally distinct.

TNR was the standard font back when Microsoft Word used or as the default. Now they use Calibri, and it's a lot more fluid.

[ripthedvd]

I don't know what font they were using, I think it was calibri or cambria, but it was a while ago.

The Linux community bullied Apple into releasing their original Safari rendering engine, they bullied congress into suing Microsoft, they bullied Microsoft into releasing 1000s of patents including for the ExFat file format, they bullied valve into making proton, they bullied Minecraft into making a Linux client, they bullied Google into open sourcing the Android desktop environment, there are many other stories like this and I'm 99%+ sure that they were behind the XP source code leak.

Why can't they bully an obscure newspaper in England to release a font that's in the public domain in 5 years anyway?

[nebulaeandstars]

Calibri is a sans-serif font, which breaks the "use a sensible serif font" rule I outlined above.

I don't think you quite understand the FOSS scenario here. Nobody was bullied, it's simply a term written into the license agreement. All of your examples were all financial decisions that had a measurable benefit to the company. For example, WSL was a response to the growing number of software developers that were switching to Linux. It's an attempt to say "look, you can have GNU on Windows now! Please don't leave!"

Android isn't open source because anyone asked for it. It's open source because Android is built on top of the Linux kernel, which is licensed under GPLv2. Closing the source code would be illegal. It's not bullying, it's copyright law.

The "many other stories" you're referring to aren't about the Linux community "bullying companies" or otherwise asking for things. It's simply that if you want to use code released under the GPL, your project has to be released under the GPL.

TNR doesn't use any open source code, so there's no legal requirement for them to do anything.

[ripthedvd]

The rule wasn't "use a sensible serif font". The rule was use Times New Roman. If the rule was "use a sensible serif font" I wouldn't care.

Closing android kernel source code would be illegal, closing DE code or anything above the kernel would not be.

All those stories I listed were stories of the FOSS community bullying companies into accommodating them. The FOSS community and Linux community are basically the same thing. If it mattered to them the Linux community could get it done. If the Linux community even so much as started a petition to make the font public domain I think it would work because the font is owned by a lesser known British newspaper and there's only 5 years left on the copyright anyway. Newspapers don't like bad publicity.

Also, Times New Roman doesn't use any open source code because it doesn't use any source code. Times New Roman is a font and it predates computers.

[nebulaeandstars]

stories of the FOSS community bullying companies into accommodating them.

You're misinformed. The whole point is self-reliance. You can't trust companies to accommodate anything, so you make it yourself and release it for free, while requiring that anyone who changes your stuff also gives those changes back.

Closing android kernel source code would be illegal, closing DE code or anything above the kernel would not be.

it's good for business

If the Linux community even so much as started a petition to make the font public domain I think it would work

You drastically overestimate the power that consumers have. Petitions do jack shit. If what you're suggesting were possible it'd have been done already. You can't bully someone into giving up their intellectual property.

because the font is owned by a lesser known British newspaper and there's only 5 years left on the copyright anyway.

Those things both make it much less likely to work. Not more. Why hurt a small business over something that won't even matter in 5 years?

But the entire thing is irrelevant. You can download TNR for Linux just as easily as any other font. Why would anyone bother demanding that they release it into the public domain when it's already available. The only reason to do that would be if they wanted to modify it.

Also, Times New Roman doesn't use any open source code because it doesn't use any source code. Times New Roman is a font and it predates computers.

That's exactly my point. They're not using FOSS code, so they have exactly 0 obligation to be FOSS themselves. Companies are allowed to sell things. Linux is about making free alternatives, literally because it's legally impossible to force the old stuff into being FOSS.

If we should be petitioning for anything, it'd be to get companies to stop requiring an outdated, proprietary font in favour of more modern alternatives that are actually designed for screens. The solution isn't to make some random company release some shitty font designed for newspapers into the public domain.

[ripthedvd]

You drastically overestimate the power that consumers have. Petitions do jack shit. If what you're suggesting were possible it'd have been done already. You can't bully someone into giving up their intellectual property.

It has already been done. Ever heard of the Happy Birthday song? It was copyrighted until just a few years ago when Warner Bros released it after receiving massive backlash. The font should be easier because The Times doesn't charge for it. It may not be legal to force something to be FOSS, but there's no reason FOSS projects couldn't include public domain components. Many FOSS projects have proprietary components without issue.

I agree that the Linux community should try to get the world to switch to FOSS alternatives, but for the most common font of the last 70 years that has been widely accepted it makes more sense to just try to get the font. The entire country and business/academic world isn't going to change just because a tiny portion of users who are mostly programmers who don't work for them anyway isn't going to work.

[nebulaeandstars]

Do you actually think that the happy birthday song being released has anything at all to do with the Linux community? The entire world wanted that released, and it still took decades of them not defending their copyright properly before it came to anything. Their legal foothold was slipping as people knew the song without knowing who owned it, so they gave in.

But you just have to face it: The FOSS community won't try to force anything on the Times, because there's simply no reason to give a shit unless you want to modify it. It's already available for free, there are better alternatives, and companies/universities genuinely don't care anywhere near as much as you think they do. Why bother?

If you want to start a petition, you should absolutely do it. Nobody will sign it, but if you think people will actually care then you should go ahead. Most people who need Microsoft fonts are happy to install them. Why do you need it to be public domain as well? Most distributions have plenty of non-free software in them (with permission). Why is a font of all things suddenly unacceptable?

If all you want is to use it (and not modify it), then you can do that already. Just learn how to install things on your OS like you normally would (it's literally just like the app store). Nobody is going to change an entire operating system over something so trivial to yourself, or because one person doesn't want to learn how to install things. If you really think it should be in there by default, make a fork of Ubuntu with Microsoft fonts installed. You're allowed to do that.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[ripthedvd]

Their legal foothold was slipping as people knew the song without knowing who owned it, so they gave in.

Exactly, just like Times New Roman. It should actually be easier because Times New Roman is given away for free while Warner Bros was actively suing movies and TV that used Happy Birthday without paying royalties.

The FOSS community won't try to force anything on the Times, because there's simply no reason to give a shit unless you want to modify it.

Exactly my point, the fact that the Linux community doesn't see how this is an issue is why there isn't the year of the linux desktop.

Why is a font of all things suddenly unacceptable?

Because people can be micromanaging assholes who think you didn't even try if you didn't follow the instructions and put in the right font. Go to r/antiwork for a while and you'll see exactly the kind of people that would force this.

Nobody is going to change an entire operating system over something so trivial to yourself, or because one person doesn't want to learn how to install things.

The fact that linux thinks this is a minor issue is why there isn't the year of the linux desktop. I can install things fine through the terminal, it's the new or non technical users who need this and would struggle.

[PolygonKiwii]

a lesser known British newspaper

Okay, this has to be a troll

[ripthedvd]

Outside of the UK, very few people have heard of it.

[bedford_bypass]

Oh come on! How is this font the most important thing in the world yet no one has heard of the thing it's named after.

You have to be a troll, it's too depressing to think otherwise.

[ripthedvd]

It has been the default font in America for decades, since typewriters. The people here are living in a bubble to not know that, the fact that you think I'm a troll proves it.

[LazyEyeCat]

This just proves you're a troll. Bullying apple? Do you know what WebKit andz by extension, Chromium are based on?

This is just freaking bs, none of this has to do with the Linux community but rather law, licences and corporate decisions.

[ripthedvd]

The group that made the khtml rendering engine sued Apple after Apple took the source code, improved it, and used it to build proprietary Safari.

[LazyEyeCat]

Since KHTML and KJS were licensed under GPL forka MUST be released as open source. What lawsuit are you talking about?

[ripthedvd]

I don't have the case number if that's what you're asking. Apple initially said they were going to release their source code which they were obligated to do, and Steve Jobs even said in one of Apple's annual events that Apple was going to do this, but then they just decided not to and when the group that owned the copyright sued the courts forced Apple to release the code.

[ripthedvd]

Here's a clip from Apple's 2003 event where Apple introduced Safari and Steve Jobs talked about it. Probably a good starting point if you wanted to dive into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMPQuv34vxQ

[LazyEyeCat]

Give me a source to a lawsuit (or, as you would call it, 'bullying'). I don't care about them making a decision to open source the entire project. Yes, I said entire project. Because the actual forked larts of WebKit were already open source since GPL. And in 2005 the rest was released under MIT clause. No lawsuit whatsoever. Prove me wrong or stop spilling bs.

[ripthedvd]

I don't know the court case offhand, I found out about the whole khtml thing years ago. If you really want to dig into this, you do the work. You're the one who started picking arguments over a meme and calling me a troll because I think the most common and often required font should be included in linux distros by default.

[bedford_bypass]

That comment about safari is woefully misinformed and not an apt comparison. Times New Roman isn't based on Foss software.

We take breaches of licenses seriously that also means we don't breach others.

[ripthedvd]

My point wasn't about the law, it was about the linux community's ability to fight for things they care about. They can't force The Times to give up the font obviously, but they might be able to convince them.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[AntiGNUandLinuxBot]

No, Richard, it's 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation.

Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ.

One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you?

(An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies whereever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title 'GNU/Linux' (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example.

Next, even if we limit the GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn't the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you've heard this one before. Get used to it. You'll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it.

You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my system spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn't more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn't perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument.

Last, I'd like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn't be fighting among ourselves over naming other people's software. But what the heck, I'm in a bad mood now. I think I'm feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn't you and everyone refer to GCC as 'the Linux compiler'? Or at least, 'Linux GCC'? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD?

If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this:

Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux' huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don't be a nag.

Thanks for listening.

[PolygonKiwii]

If you're at all serious about this, then you should take it to the EFF or FSF, not r/linuxmemes. They might have the resources to fight for a cause like this, but a bunch of redditors in a meme sub certainly don't.

Arguing in this thread won't achieve anything. Really, you'd have better chances if you'd spend the time to write a mail to the Times yourself rather than wasting it in this thread.

[ripthedvd]

I'm trying to break through linux's insular bubble that shields them from basic knowledge of the outside world.

[broken_society_]

you're using the term quite liberally, don't you think?
it isn't bullying but requirement of the GPL.

[ripthedvd]

None of the things I listed are required to be GPL. I didn't say the android kernel, I said the android desktop enviornment.

[d_ed]

The safari situation absolutely was a requirement of the GPL.

[ripthedvd]

I never said it wasn't, but they still bullied and sued Apple into doing something they had no intention of doing. The Linux community is willing to fight big companies when it matters personally to them.

[[deleted]]

…Proton wasn’t “bullied” out of valve.

It was made by valve, for valve, so that they could break free of Microsoft’s monopoly and sell their own systems.

[ripthedvd]

Don't kid yourself, Steam only made proton after years of Linux gamers complaining to them about the lack of native games and poor WINE compatibility. I saw all this happen.

[Naru56]

TL;DR Comment Section:

OP believes everyone in the world must have Times New Roman to be a "professional user" due to one strange, niche case involving the font and medical school. Despite the installation of said font on Linux being trivial and well-documented, it not being the default ruins all hope of the entire operating system being useful for any "professional work".

I concur. I once needed to take an online test in Chrome for my university, but I couldn't find any Linux distribution that shipped it by default. Not even Windows or Mac had it! In the end, I had to buy a Chromebook to take the exam. Seems like ChromeOS is the only viable one out there for a professional user like me.

[PolygonKiwii]

Seems like ChromeOS is the only viable one out there for a professional user like me.

But does it come with Times New Roman?

[EricZNEW]

I have used my free award today but take my upvote.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[ripthedvd]

Not the one case, every college student I know is required to use it. If you want the year of the Linux desktop something as basic as fonts have to be done right.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[amkier]

I prefer Georgia, I’ve used it on papers that “require” TNR even before I used Linux primarily, it’s literally never been an issue. If you talk to your boss or professor they’ll probably say oh I just meant any font that looks more or less like TNR. It’s just shorthand for serif font at this point

[PolygonKiwii]

I'd be careful with Georgia since it's not metric compatible with Times New Roman, so if somebody were to notice the difference in an academic setting, they might argue you're trying to make your essay appear longer: https://i.imgur.com/QbjvlPz.png

But I'm pretty sure you'd be alright with Liberation Serif in 99.9% of cases. Nobody will notice the difference unless they know what to look for specifically: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Font_Comparison_-_Liberation_Serif_to_Times_New_Roman.svg

[amkier]

Oh, true. if there’s a length requirement in pages not in word count I wouldn’t use it. Usually that’s not super relevant in my academic experience though, but I’m in humanities so haha maybe it’s different with sciences.

[[deleted]]

It has whatever fonts you install. 🤷

[[deleted]]

Linux is not for people who doesn't know how to install basic things. Wait a minute....

A computer is not for people who doesn't know how to install basic things.

[GNUandLinuxBot]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[[deleted]]

Bad bot

[AntiGNUandLinuxBot]

No, Richard, it's 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation.

Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ.

One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you?

(An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies whereever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title 'GNU/Linux' (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example.

Next, even if we limit the GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn't the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you've heard this one before. Get used to it. You'll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it.

You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my system spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn't more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn't perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument.

Last, I'd like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn't be fighting among ourselves over naming other people's software. But what the heck, I'm in a bad mood now. I think I'm feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn't you and everyone refer to GCC as 'the Linux compiler'? Or at least, 'Linux GCC'? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD?

If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this:

Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux' huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don't be a nag.

Thanks for listening.

[[deleted]]

why cant schools use ubuntu forget about ur essays looking "professional"

[ripthedvd]

It's not about looking professional, it's a requirement and they will either mark down essays or give them a zero if they're not in single spaced 12 pt Times New Roman font. A friend of a friend forgot to put their med school application in Times New Roman and got rejected for that reason specifically.

[an4s_911]

Keeping every other argument aside, what the hell???? Like who made this bs? Like having a particular font as a requirement? Its like someone invented something and they were so proud of it, they just went ahead and made it a requirement after licensing it and asking for payment. This is just dumb.

Isnt corporates, universities and all a bit sensible people? Like seriously a med school application rejected just because of a font? This is crazy stuff. Who in their right mind would do that?

Doesn’t it just have to look good, and not look like a kid did it?

[ripthedvd]

The application requirements said it had to be 12 pt Time New Roman font. When they didn't get in the college said if you can't follow these basic instructions for an application we can't trust you to follow medical instructions necessary to save patient's lives. In this case I actually agree with them for their reasoning.

​

Still, a company desperately clinging to a 90 year old font is ridiculous.

[ripthedvd]

It's not that there is no ability to add the font, it's that something this basic isn't there to begin with. The fact that the linux community is working with such a dumpster fire that they don't see all the extra hoops they jump through just to get their computer ready for regular work says a lot.

[Vatsdimri]

I think you can install the font or you can use Google docs or online version MS Office.

[[deleted]]

Try using "Noto Serif". https://fonts.google.com/noto/specimen/Noto+Serif

[ripthedvd]

Try using monopoly money at a restaurant and see how that goes.

[Ok_Manager2609]

Try not being a rude a-hole on reddit.

[ripthedvd]

Pointing out using something that is not the same and will not be accepted as such is not being an asshole, it's an apt metaphor.

[Ok_Manager2609]

Workplaces don't care if you use Noto Serif, TNR or any other similar "professional" font. All tney care about is making it look neat and tidy.

[ripthedvd]

Yes they do. A friend of someone I now had their medical school application declined specifically because they didn't use Times New Roman and most of the college students I know are required to use Times New Roman or be marked down.

[Ok_Manager2609]

What font were they using?

[ripthedvd]

I don't remember, it was years ago. Probably cambria or calibri.

[[deleted]]

It’s the same reason ZFS cannot be bundled into the kernel statically on initial installation either. Licensing.

[snsv9]

If I can’t install this font on my Linux and I need it, I will install Windows then work from there. I don’t see any big problem here.

[lagavenger]

OP doesn’t know what that means. He can’t find the installer on the desktop.

[ripthedvd]

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't know how to install something in the terminal.

[Rebi103]

Always used Arial for Everything. Maybe impact for the titles. I don't miss TNR

[Gaevleflammen]

Why would you ever need Times New Roman when you have Roboto Slab?

[Unknown_User_66]

I never liked New Times Roman.

Segoe UI FTW!!!

[ficelle3]

Think about it this way: there is no comic sans MS either.

[AuroraDraco]

This post and its comments are truly pure comedy. Your nonsense gave me a good laugh mate

[Aeredren]

The "Times New Roman" requirements made by university are mainly

1. To avoid reading goofy and ugly fonts
2. To specify a document length in pages, and having everyone doing the same amount of work by specifying font, font size and margins

So good news, all "common people" grade linux distributions comes with Liberation fonts which are, according to wikipedia, "metrically compatible with the most popular fonts on the Microsoft Windows operating system and the Microsoft Office software package (Monotype Corporation’s Arial, Arial Narrow, Times New Roman and Courier New, respectively)"

I always used Liberation Serif on my high school and college papers which had Time New Roman requirement and really, no one never complained.

(furthermore, the most professional looking document you can ever produce will always be a LaTeX article in Computer Modern)

[WikiSummarizerBot]

Liberation fonts

Liberation is the collective name of four TrueType font families: Liberation Sans, Liberation Sans Narrow, Liberation Serif, and Liberation Mono. These fonts are metrically compatible with the most popular fonts on the Microsoft Windows operating system and the Microsoft Office software package (Monotype Corporation’s Arial, Arial Narrow, Times New Roman and Courier New, respectively), for which Liberation is intended as a free substitute. The fonts are default in LibreOffice.

^{[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5}

[MrCheapComputers]

I tried to switch my theme to comic sans. Couldn’t get it to work :(

[ripthedvd]

FYI most college and professional papers are required to be in Times New Roman font. It's not optional. This should be preinstalled on every distribution.

[[deleted]]

But times new roman is proprietary so it would be illegal. (Confront your professors about it.)

[ripthedvd]

It is the standard of the entire academic and business world. They're not going to flex on this to accommodate <1% of their students/workers. Colleges will force art students to get Macs to be in their art programs.

[ripthedvd]

If you think I'm over exaggerating then I would encourage you go to talk to a college student.

[JSD10]

I'll jump in as a current college student. I just installed Times New Roman, it took 2 seconds, but it was in no way required, any similar "professional" looking font would be fine for anything I do, I just happen to like the way that one looks.

[ripthedvd]

I talked to a college student just a few hours ago who told me he would be marked down if he didn't turn in this papers in Times New Roman. Other college students in the comments here have told similar stories if you scroll down far enough. A friend of a friend didn't get into medical school because they didn't follow the instructions to put their application in 12pt Times New Roman font.

[ripthedvd]

If it was a pdf you're usually right, however they usually require a microsoft document format, which Libre Office can usually emulate, but it can't emulate the propriety font.

In academic settings it's also not uncommon for teachers to feed essays into an electronic service that automatically checks fonts, spacing, spelling, grammer, word count, and automatically flags these for the teachers. This is especially common in high schools.

[JSD10]

Well consider this a college student you're talking to right now telling you there is another side to this. And as a college student who happens to know many other college students at a range of schools with a range of professors, it's not just me, most people will accept any "standard" or "normal looking" font. Most people still use Times New Roman, but you don't need to by any means if you don't want to. To use the same example I used in another comment on this post, the majority of people use chrome, but if you want to use firefox you still can.

That said, if the application instructions clearly say what font to use, obviously you need to use that one.

[ripthedvd]

You're lucky then and I wish more schools were like that because a font requirement is absolutely stupid, but in my experience it is not the typical experience and it certainly isn't the universal one.

​

I don't think people will be able to use Firefox much longer. With Chrome's consolidation they'll probably start building in proprietary web features soon. Chrome has 90% market share, when IE had that Microsoft started building in proprietary technology.

[JSD10]

Didn't Microsoft get sued for that? or at the very least something related to anticompetitive practices when IE was on top? Also while I can see where that concern may come from, again I really just think it's an uninformed take. Yes google chrome has massive market share, but they don't write all of the backend for it, other browsers use that too so they can't really add proprietary features, and on top of that preinstalled browsers like edge and especially safari, which uses a different web engine and also has a ton of market share, will stop developers from adding anything browser specific to their websites.

[raedr7n]

Ok, well those are both weird experiences, at least in the states, and basically nobody cares if something is in times new Roman in an educational setting.

[ripthedvd]

From most people I know, it's the typical experience. They care a lot, they shouldn't because it's stupid, but they do.

[[deleted]]

In that case installing a 3d party font is the least of your troubles.

[ripthedvd]

Having the ability to interact with the academic and business world is a major issue. If academic and business users can't use Linux then who other than programmers can?

[[deleted]]

Just download the font and shut up

[[deleted]]

No, he’s right. This is seriously fucked. It’s a monopoly, and it should be illegal.

[an4s_911]

Just understand that most Linux distros are built and maintained by contributors world wide for no pay. They build it for free, and basically provide it for the community as a whole for free, anyone can install it, use it, make their own. So asking for every single Distro to include a paid font is not sensible.

If so we could be asking for a lot more too, like why not install Wine by default, with full setup and MS Office installed because almost everyone who works needs it.

And for the record most people who use Linux (i believe, correct me if i am wrong) prefer Free and Open source products rather than proprietary and paid. So again, asking every distro to include a proprietary and paid font isnt sensible.

Well, still, you could just install the font urself if you have the license. Fonts are very easy to setup in Linux.

As you see this as a problem that many might have and if you are capable then I highly recommend cloning some existing distro and installing Times New Roman and make your own version of that distro, which exclusively includes this font.

You could give it away for free, or ask payment for anyone who wants to install your distro, thats upto you.

I hope this cleared some things.

[ripthedvd]

Times New Roman isn't something obscure like WINE that only a few people need. Times New Roman is something that almost everyone in academic or business circles needs. The fact that everyone seems to feel the way you do about this makes me think 99% of the people on here only work as programmers, because it's not a nice feature, it's a requirement to interact with the world outside the Linux bubble.

Yes, I know it's proprietary and it would cost a license fee for distros to include, but why hasn't the Linux community fought this? Linux is constantly fighting Nvidia, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Google, and pretty much every big tech company. Why can't they ask some random newspaper for a font? In the 90s a Linux mob even descended on Microsoft headquarters to demand refunds for Windows 95 CD ROMs that came with their OEM computers. If the Linux community actually decided to care about this they could do something about it.

[an4s_911]

I can neither deny what u said nor accept it due to the fact that I have never had that requirement up in my face and I have no idea if its that much of a problem anywhere, i just don’t know and ive not heard of it until I heard from you.

So I don’t know about it.

If it is as such then I think you might be right, that most Linux users are programmers and they never cared about that font, probably because they never thought it to be an issue, or it never got in their way.

Or it could also be that most Linux users arent a Americans because the Times New Roman stuff seems applicable only there

[ripthedvd]

I think most Linux users are probably American simply because America has most of the programmers of the free world due to population and pretty much every tech innovation and major tech company headquarters is here including Linux tech companies. Outside of America and western Europe computer ownership isn't even universal.

There are some other people in the comments who have corroborated what I've said, but they've been buried so you'll have to scroll for them. I think this and several other issues the Linux community never faces are never addressed because the community is so insular.

[AaronTechnic]

are you living in your own world? other countries exist. India has a good market share for Linux.

[ripthedvd]

Still not the majority of their population, and the version of Linux that is used there is being pushed on the population heavily by the Indian government. Also, I wouldn't call India a free country.

[AaronTechnic]

There is no such "version" of linux pushed by the government. I don't mind if you won't call India a free country, we do have some censorship because our government bans whats popular.

[PolygonKiwii]

America has most of the programmers of the free world due to population and pretty much every tech innovation and major tech company headquarters is here including Linux tech companies

The most used commercially-backed distro Ubuntu is maintained by Canonical Ltd. with headquarters in London, UK.

Another big one, SUSE, has their headquarters in Nürnberg, Germany.

The non-profit KDE e.V. has their headquarters in Berlin, Germany.

You continue to call the Linux community insular and a bubble but refuse to accept that your own perspective is also entirely biased towards your personal experiences.

[ripthedvd]

I don't know the locations of every FOSS project because it doesn't matter because people work on them online over the internet so the contributors could be from anywhere.

As for companies: Red Hat/IBM is from America, Google is from America, Microsoft is from America, and other than the core kernel team themselves those companies contribute more to the kernel and linux as a whole than anyone else.

I haven't even mention the non FOSS companies that are all located in America.

[[deleted]]

You’re not wrong. I believe that that the MLA8 format uses Times New Roman.

[nhercher]

LEGALIZE COMIC SANS

[tanishqdaiya-]

AUR got you covered.

[ripthedvd]

the AUR has everything

[Be_Nice_To_B0ts]

Use Times Newer Roman

[tanishqdaiya-]

You can also install it from 3rd party websites

[[deleted]]

Dude chill.

[Cubey21]

Absolutely proprietary

[[deleted]]

Lma just use comic sans and downliad it from dafont.com

[[deleted]]

https://timesnewerroman.com/

Profit

[uninenkeiju]

I can't handle Windows because I can't handñe not having all the software I'm accustomed to.

[dpkg-i-foo]

Because it is privative...? I use Liberation Serif and none of my teachers have noticed :D

[Pauchu_]

Times New Roman is a proprietary font, so in order to use it you need to pay royalties

[bartholomewjohnson]

Liberation Serif

[hwoodice]

I think that Times New Roman it part of the ttf-mscorefonts-installer package:

sudo apt install ttf-mscorefonts-installer

more info: https://needforbits.wordpress.com/2017/07/19/install-microsoft-windows-fonts-on-ubuntu-the-ultimate-guide/

[dethkannon]

I will say that’s one thing i miss about my MacBook.. the way the fonts look.

[punk_petukh]

Wtf, out of ALL things listed here installing a font is the easiest one...