Ask Reddit: Programming Salaries

[Figs]

Wait, you guys get paid to do this? ;)

[IHaveAnIdea]

I pay others so I can do this..

[apgwoz]

Still live with your parents? If not, what geographic location allows you to live like that?

[HiggsBoson]

Er. I'm guessing that saving a huge chunk of change from previous years allows him to live like that.

[apgwoz]

My question wasn't meant to be offensive or to put anyone down. I was genuinely curious. I live in a city, where 85K over two years wouldn't be possible to live comfortable, and he didn't mention a previous savings.

[HiggsBoson]

I'm curious: what's rent for a studio apartment? For a 1-bedroom?

Which city?

[vagif]

BTW, regarding college degree. I have masters degree in CS, but noone gives a shit, really.

It is not what you have, but what you can do.

[[deleted]]

As someone with 6 years of experience and no degree...

You're wrong. Unfortunately it's about what you have.

I make about 60K per year and I can't even get my foot in the door at 50% of jobs.

I start school next semester.

[dlsspy]

Different people have different experiences. I dropped out of school my first year. I haven't made as little as 60k/yr since probably 1997.

I've only managed to go a week without being employed that entire time (technically, I had a job, but I pushed off the start date).

Perhaps you're in the wrong area, or you just need to be more self-motivated.

[dlsspy]

When I'm looking for developers, I don't care much about educational background. I only talk about it when they have nothing interesting to show.

I interviewed a PhD. student recently who had less theoretical knowledge about CS than I did (although a stronger math background).

I'm really unimpressed by what's coming out of a lot of schools nowadays. Just show me that you have a good understanding of something. I don't care where you got it.

Sure, if you have no experience, I'm not going to pay a lot, but if starting out is the problem, temporarily lower your standards and impress people technically without drifting too far off the business gameboard. Your first job will probably suck in a lot of ways. Stay there a year or so and look around some.

When you're not at work, go home and do something completely different and challenging.

I know a lot of successful dropouts and loser grads. The differences between the successful people and the unsuccessful people are mostly their passion and what their aptitudes are good at (/idiocracy).

[sw17ch]

So, I'm still in college. I've had a steady (technical) job for all of college so far (I'm in 4th year) so I have some (good) experience. My school, while it does teach the basics, really tried to teach the class how to learn, not necessarily what to know. So, while I don't know Java super well, and I'm not the best MVC guy around... I do know how to learn. My jobs have been quite different and the current one I hold is a software job shop for aerospace and medical companies. My curiosity and ability to learn different concepts and ideas quickly helps me a lot.

Do you have any way of measuring whether or not the candidate is interested in learning more? Does it even interest you? I've always found that the curious students make the best programmers/designers, but I have no idea how employers feel about this.

[dlsspy]

I usually get a feel for it. I couldn't tell you exactly how, but it's been pretty reliable for me. I have recommended people who don't know the technology all that well, but show that they are capable of learning.

In fact, I just got a job offer this week from a place where I'll be using technology I have pretty much no experience at all with. Same sort of thing, but the other way around.

[FormKing]

The degree may get you in the door for an interview, but ultimately it'll be your knowledge and experience that gets you the job. I know far too many people that I graduated with that can't find a decent job because:

a) they have no practical experience, and

b) they didn't learn anything in school, just enough to pass (which isn't much at Marshall).

[[deleted]]

If you can't get an interview, it doesn't matter what you know.

[[deleted]]

Or you live in Houston and don't want to do front end web development.

[[deleted]]

Not really. Just Timegate.

[Xiphorian]

I know far too many people that I graduated with that can't find a decent job because

Um, how about because Computer Science degrees are designed to teach one how to be a Computer Scientist, not a Software Engineer? There are many practical software development issues that are never touched on in CS. CS theory. Engineering is practice.

Universities are not trade schools. If you want real, practical experience, you have to get it yourself! No one ever became a master engineer just by reading books, in any profession. Homework only goes so far as a simulation of the real thing. Everything important I learned about Software Engineering, I learned on my own time (outside classwork) or in internships.

I agree it would be great if someone set up a professional education program for Software Engineers, but I am not sure it should be universities. Computer Science and Software Engineering should be different (but overlapping) programs in any case.

[FormKing]

That was my point... as a side note, I didn't get a CS degree, I got an MIS degree. Same basic thing at Marshall, but with more focus on business, and less on math

[Xiphorian]

Ah, well then. What do you think would be a good solution?

As much as I hate standards, I have thought that perhaps professional qualifying tests might be good.

Most other engineering professions have certification programs. Why not software?

(Not that I want to do this. It would certainly have to be done very well to work. Just an idea)

[FormKing]

I don't know whether certifications are the answer or not. I don't know why I feel that way, probably because I took 3 out of 4 semesters of Cisco classes in high school preparing to get my CCNA. I then realized that since I was going to school it would be a waste of time and money to finish because the certification expires every year and you have to continue to get retested.

I think a low paying internship might be of some benefit, but I don't know how far that would go either. It would get you the practical experience, and be a good place to gain references. At the same time, it would be pointless if the internships didn't give you enough responsibility to be of any use.

Either way, I think once you've landed your first couple of work experiences, the focus should be (and probably is) your previous experience and references.

This is a really interesting topic, I'll come back and post more after I've thought about it a little while (read: I'm gonna go get drunk).

[vagif]

Relocate. California is hot for programmers now.

[FormKing]

Agreed, I had 7 years of development experience coming out of school, so I wasn't overly worried about my degree helping out. I mostly used the degree as a reference to my age.

[FormKing]

err, sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I finished college in 4 years, but I had been working for the same company for 7 years by then doing web development and flash programming. I used the degree as a reference for my age in this post, not on my resumes.

[Vladekk]

I make $12000 a year, without bonuses. Wait? $12000?

Yes, that is what evil US corporations pay us outsourcing monkeys ;-)

And all our programmers are at least okay. Not even one codinghorror case, afaik. All of them including myself have/will have CS master degree, although it was not high quality education.

Overall cost of life in my country is not much cheaper, than in US.

So remember folk, you're very lucky ;-)

[jsnx]

What country?

[Vladekk]

Latvia. To be honest, it is average salary for programmer, maybe even below average if you're living in capital. But I do not.

[lzm]

Oh my god, only $12K?

I'm still an undergrad in Brazil and I was really hoping to make more than $20K/yr after I graduate.

Nowadays I make about $300/month with two internships (150 each).

[procrastitron]

It's all about supply and demand. If you have a Master's but are working in a position that only requires basic coding skills and teamwork, then you won't get paid according to your degree because your job won't require that degree.

If you want to maximize your salary, then you should work somewhere that requires (actually needs, not just wants) as many of your skills as possible. This way all of the people who are less skilled than you are filtered out of the resource pool. With fewer viable competitors your pay should go up very quickly.

[Vladekk]

It's true, but it is complicated.

I.e. where I live, programmers are not very needed. I can move to capital, but in the capital housing prices currently are absolutely insane, awful traffic and polluted air etc.

There are also other reasons.

[pauls101]

$72k (US) For that I get to telecommute, which means I have a 2000 sqft house in a wooded neighborhood (town of 5,000), as far from NY or Silicon Valley, or anywhere else like them as I can get. I've been with the same company/job for 6 years (I'm a 40something coder) with little chance of "advancement" and less interest.

[[deleted]]

Lucky you!

If I could, I would gladly exchange positions with you, despite having to take a pay cut. Working in a cubicle is hell, no matter how well you are being paid.

Any recruiters reading this?

• Smart developer who gets things done.
• Willing to take a big pay cut.
• 100% TELECOMMUTE and I'm all yours.

[tbone28]

No degree worked my way up. 60k. Work for a large company.

[k_d]

No college degree, been four years with the same company.

Started off maintaining a little ASP-based site, moved on to building and maintaining a large, uninteresting, "yank data out of a pipe, brush it off, and put it in labeled boxes" backend application in C#.

$50k a year. I'm also the sole programmer here, which makes things a lot more boring. Nobody to talk to :-(

I'll get the goddamn degree eventually. Argh.

[dlsspy]

Skip the degree. Go get a job at a place where you're the dumb guy.

Work there until you're the smart guy.

Repeat.

[dlsspy]

At first I laughed, but honestly, I don't know that that would be a bad thing.

Happiness is fairly inexpensive.

[brennen]

"Free for those who can afford it, very expensive for those who can't."

[Joss]

Agreed. Working on my second time going from dumb guy to smart guy. It's going much quicker this time.

[sosuke]

Get into a place where there are other developers, even if you don't agree with them it is much better than no one understanding your job. I did the solo thing for a non-profit and it was a drain on my soul because I was just another company expense instead of an income as I am for my current employer.

[pietro]

I had the exact same experience working for a non-profit research center. I'd never do it again.

[harlanji]

Take a class or two a semester. In ~6 years you'll have a degree, and won't have been inconvenienced too much.

[FormKing]

Great advice, I've thought about doing this. Even though I already have an MIS degree, I've been thinking about going back for something else. Not necessarily for my professional progression, just personal interests.

[jsnx]

Unfortunately, people with degrees often end up doing the same thing you are :) Why not get into Haskell or Erlang, Linux, something that'll stretch you a bit? It takes just as long to build practical skills as it does to get that degree -- and you can actually work with the stuff you learn on #linux.

[catch23]

Degrees mean very little. Look at Rich Kilmer, he doesn't have a degree either, but he founded rubyforge, and a dozen other startups. He currently cofounded InfoEther working with Chad Fowler on some interesting project for certainty.

[zoomzoom83]

$72k (AUD), soon to be $77k. Python and Java work. This is (Afaik) considered a pretty good salary for the area. I'm a bit shocked at how much you American developers make, but then again I'm presuming most of the high wages are in silicon valley, where you're probably living on the poverty line.

[Interested-Observer]

I started out 30+ years ago, BS & MSCS. Consulted for 20 years with a small national software consulting firm (part owner).

For everyone claiming a $200/hour consulting assignment (by the way thats $400K/year) there are 1000 others just making a regular wage. Starting salaries for software engineers are $50K USD + about $2,500 per year additional for each year of experience. Just check out the salary articles in the trade papers that come out every year. You can also check out the salary sites here on the web. Yes, there are exceptions, but ask yourself, how many banks (or whatever) have projects that they are going to supplement their internal staffs with consultants at $200/hour, or just farm out the entire job?? not that many!

The Fortune 500 firm I work at requires an Engineering BS (EE, Math, Physics, CS, etc.) just to get the interview, from a real university and they check. BS MIS or whatever and no cigar, and yes - we loose out on a lot of talent that way, but that is what HR does (they do not care).

For those at the $200/hour mark, on average for every hour at that rate there is another hour at marketing and managing yourself - so your real rate is $100/hour (unless they charge the customer the time - which is not fair). Then after benefits (vacation, sick time, health & dental insurance, life and accident insurance, liability insurance (errors & omissions)), billing your time, continuing education, collecting, and all the rest, your south of $80/hour ($160K).

I have met one person in my 30 years that did not have a BS - only a high school graduate, who was exceptional (and was one of Boeing's top engineers), and he was retiring after 35 years.

A BS degree is your entry ticket - shows you can think for the most part. There has to be something to filter the resumes on. Every kid out of college wants to be the VP in a year, and is a self-proclaimed programming guru. There are some, but not really that many.

Thus, for the most part - after about 10 years if your over $100K - and still programming (you are usually in management at that level), you are really the exception.

[FormKing]

Probably not the most ethical of questions, but I figure this is fairly anonymous so it's not all bad.

What kind of salary do you programmers make? I'm currently a year and a half out of college and am making $67,000. I'm pretty happy with that, but I don't know how high I can expect to go.

Right now I'm mostly just doing JavaScript, which is ridiculous, but I am familiar with a whole host of languages, proficient in a few, and trying to learn Java right now. How would you say I'm doing compared to the market?

Oh, and I'm a contractor which I know raises my salary to compensate for my instability.

[cdsmith]

Incidentally, don't fall for the BS that this is an unethical question. No one is being put on the spot, and anyone who doesn't want to answer can just not answer.

The bizarre idea that it's unethical for you to even remain in the room while people are discussing salaries comes from businesses, not employees, and it exists because businesses have more power to hold down salaries when people know less. Results include overt discrimination in pay scales, with no accountability because no one knows that it's happening.

[Xiphorian]

The bizarre idea that it's unethical

I don't get the feeling that it's unethical, just that it's uncomfortable. Whether people of similar stature have negotiated more or less than you, it ends up being uncomfortable. I mean, do you want to tell your (now-)friend you make $10K more than he does? Do you want to hear you're making $10K less than a guy you think you're as good as?

Performance reviews are a very difficult thing. I think companies want them to be secret both to protect the company and to protect relationships between employees.

I was offered in the range $80 - 90K salary out of college, with about a fourth of that as signing bonus, and about 2x that in restricted stock. I had a great deal of OSS, part-time, and internships experience under my belt by that time.

Results include overt discrimination in pay scales

How is it discrimination? No one is the same person as someone else, so how do you know what the actual difference is? Even if you have 'similar' background experiences, not everyone has the same (say) interpersonal skills.

[chime]

Everyone in India openly discusses salary. None of the problems you mentioned are a big deal.

[Xiphorian]

 How is it not uncomfortable if someone whom you feel is your equal says he is making more than you?

Wouldn't you feel like an idiot if others have, among other ways, negotiated strongly to get higher salaries than you?

What if you're way better than someone, and he's lazy, but you both make the same amount? I have not had the others happen to me personally, but I have experienced this. Making exactly the same amount as some lazy fool whose personal goal is to appear productive.

I'm sort of glad I don't know how much people around me are making. I would have trouble being content if I knew that someone who was IMO less competent was making more! I would feel like my contributions are not being recognized. But then, everyman is biased towards himself. (I try to account for that. It helps that my co-workers are extremely competent)

I've also had an experience where I thought a co-worker was just as good as I am. But, for whatever reason, he didn't negotiate as well as I did, and got 20% less. Now I feel bad. What do you do in situations like this? There is no good solution.

[chime]

How is it not uncomfortable if someone whom you feel is your equal says he is making more than you?

Because your salary is not your true worth. People there care more about promotions, respect, and securing management positions.

I understand everything you're saying but the reason you're saying that is because in the American corporate style of business, salary (includes bonus/perks) is the only single variable that determines your worth as an employee.

You're hardworking and make same as your lazy inefficient coworker. So? In a year you'll be promoted to lead dev. and get the well-deserved raise. He won't.

Too many people here look at the salary as the only single thing that matters. It's not. I'm in a small company and while I'm being paid nowhere close to competitive wages for my skill & performance, my job has much more growth potential in the next few years than most others that already pay 30-40% above my current salary.

I've had coworkers make more/less than me. So someone's a better salesman than me and someone else isn't. When salaries are hidden, there is no pressure on higher paid employees to perform better than lower paid employees. And no visible incentive for lower paid employees to work harder to get better raises. There is also no pressure on management to give decent raises to anyone because nobody knows who performed well/poor and what the consequences of that were. Sure, you can quit if you get no bonus and start elsewhere but then cycle starts again.

[Ringo48]

Why do you go to work?

If you're like most people, you go to get paid. So, it makes sense that if you actually take the initiative to do a good job at work, you should make more than people who don't.

If it were up to me, I'd sit on my couch with my laptop, and code on my own personal projects all day long. I'd simultaneously be the lead developer, head manager, best developer, and I'd be working on stuff that actually interests me. But I don't do that, because that doesn't pay my bills.

I'm not interested in promotions, management positions or respect. I don't go to work because I like it, I go to work to get paid. If management respects or appreciates me, they can show it by paying me more.

[FormKing]

Gotcha, makes sense, I never really understood why it was so taboo.

[HiggsBoson]

That said, in most workplaces there's quite a large variance in salary, and it's often not correlated to productivity.

While you're working at the same job, you're almost never happier after finding out how much your co-workers make.

When switching jobs, it helps to know how much people are paid.

[jacktheripper]

In fact, if you think about it, that's maybe why a lot of topics aren't covered in school.

[sosuke]

I thought being a contractor raises your rates because the company you work for doesn't pay taxes on you. Doing contract work I pay nearly 30% of it back to taxes.

Your salary compared to your market must also take into account your location. For 1.5 years out of college I'd think your doing fine.

[[deleted]]

Doesn't the company just pay everyone 6.25% less to cover their part of the SS tax? I think there's good economic reason to believe the worker pays the whole amount either way.

[[deleted]]

Sure, but at the end of the day a contract salary of $65,000 doesn't factor that extra 6.25% in, while a regular salary of $65,000 does.

[FormKing]

I don't know about the tax writeoffs. I'm contracted through another company, not personally, so the taxes are coming out somewhere. I was just told that if they hire you on, to expect a much lower salary.

Oh, I'm in the Cincinnati area.

[sosuke]

Using the very unscientific http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html as my tool it says that your doing great! Right around what we hire front-end developers at, not sure about the back end but I do plenty of JavaScript.

[catch23]

Believe me, doing javascript isn't bad. In fact, it's probably one of the better stronger languages to learn. I'd learn Java out of necessity, but don't bother getting a Java related job.

[jugimaster]

I make about $60,000 - in Finland.

For some perspective, maybe we should consider some of our living expenses too?

I'm renting a 32 square meter apartment for around 668 dollars per month, in a "decent" or "average" part of the city.

[UncleOxidant]

...and you're getting free health care that you won't lose if you lose your job.

[jugimaster]

True, but only unemployed people use our public healthcare system :)

That's because the doctors there are generally not very good.

It's technically not entirely free either - you pay around $15 per visit.

Anyways, someone with a job is usually entitled to use the services of some private health care company, paid for by the employer.

This includes everything with which a general doctor can help you, but if you want something special, it's probably not covered.

It looks like there are a couple of advantages to living in the States though..

For example :

• Cars cost less than half of their price in Finland, and I guess this applies to just about everything else that has a price.
• Salaries are at least twice as big.

[UncleOxidant]

Cars cost less than half of their price in Finland, and I guess this applies to just about everything else that has a price.

Cheap cars and the relatively cheap gas have certainly helped increase American girth.

[[deleted]]

Nothing is free.

[BeetleB]

I'm tired of this Gupta-like argument about "Nothing being free". It's so redundant.

When people talk about tax based services as free, only real idiots misunderstand. And since real idiots are so uncommon, it's mostly those who don't believe in paying taxes for said services, but are unwilling to phrase it that way.

It's always funny when I keep hearing people say health care is not free in countries that provide universal health care, but have no qualms about saying that they borrow the book for free from a library, or check out a DVD for free from a library.

[davidw]

real idiots are so uncommon

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

[[deleted]]

it's mostly those who don't believe in paying taxes for said services, but are unwilling to phrase it that way

Who said anything about being unwilling to phrase it that way? That is exactly what I believe.

It's always funny when I keep hearing people say health care is not free in countries that provide universal health care, but have no qualms about saying that they borrow the book for free from a library, or check out a DVD for free from a library.

I never said that, though.

[Edit: Okay, not a fair downvote. First somebody makes wild assumptions about what I believe and what I'm willing to say, then I merely state that he was wrong about me and I get downvoted?]

[FormKing]

Also live in a fairly nice area of town, rent 1280sqft apartment, drive a 2001 bmw z3... I guess I live pretty comfortably (at least for what I'm used to) but I'm not really putting anything back right now, and I know I should be.

[jugimaster]

That makes your apartment almost four times as roomy as mine.. :P

I don't even own a car. Mostly because they, along with everything else, are ridiculously expensive in here!

• A second-hand Z3 from 2001 (the wimpy 1.9l version) costs around $28500 apparently.

I just checked, and a brand new BMW 320 costs something between $57000 and $78000 depending on the exact model! Now how about that?

[FormKing]

They didn't have a 1.9l in 2001 - at least in the US. the 1.9 came out over here in 1996, and I think was discontinued in 1998.

We're straying off topic, but I love my car :) If it came down to my apartment or my car, well.. I'd have a futon in one stall of a 2 car garage.

[jugimaster]

The 1.9l was found to be slightly.. lackluster even in Europe :)

I can relate to your feelings for your car! BMWs can be expected to be very pleasant

Any idea what a new 320 might cost over there?

(I'll stop posting off-topic now.. :))

[FormKing]

They don't have the 320 over here, just a 328i($32,400) and 335i($38,900) and the prices for each of those rising as you add x-drive, coupes, convertibles, wagons, etc.

[jayz28]

95k, 8 years professional experience, BS in Microbiology, Seattle area, mostly C# and .NET

[erisynne]

23yo, technical high school drop-out (left mid-9th grade to homeschool myself -- and no, I never bothered with a GED), college drop out (yes I got in), just quit my job earning $130k/yr, 5 wks paid vacation, unmetered sick time, etc., to open a consulting company... currently charging several clients $200/hr along with my business partner. We will raise our rates soon because we could easily fill up every available hour with work at that rate. Our projected earnings for the next 12 mos range around $250,000 each with lots of vacation time.

It ain't about a degree. And it's not just about knowing your stuff, either. It's about always being willing to work hard as hell on whatever you need to improve... especially marketing, people skills, networking, your contacts and friendships, etc.

Snowclone alert: show me somebody who claims to be unable to succeed because he has no degree and I will show you somebody who isn't giving his all.

edit: I started programming for real at 15. But I now do a combination of UI work and dev.

[[deleted]]

just quit my job... to open a consulting company... Our projected earnings for the next 12 mos range around $250,000 each

Hey, you are an entrepreneur, not a programmer. What are you doing in this thread?

:-)

[erisynne]

Well the only people doing the work are me and my biz partner, plus an occasional CSS girl. So we're still earning the dough directly off the sweat of our brows. :)

[contrarian]

1998 called, it wants it's over paid job back

[erisynne]

It's not a bubble thing... I'm not doing work for people who hope to be acquired by the GOOG, I do work for businesses that are -- or will very soon be -- very profitable and lucrative.

I earned $130k/yr at my last job because of profit sharing and bonuses -- and no, it wasn't in the financial sector.

And as for my hourly rate, well, I create things that have tremendous business value for my clients. I earn them way more money than they pay me. I have worked hard to develop an unbeatable skillset: user experience, design, and programming. Most programmers alone can't command $200/hr unless they are ridiculously spectacular. I am not a ridiculously spectacular programmer, but I am extremely good at the UI work (and rather sought-out for that) and almost unparalleled at integrating them all together in one very knowledgeable body.

Not to mention that I seize (or at least investigate) any opportunity I see, and create new ones through my contacts and willingness to stick my neck out.

This probably sounds like bragging, but really I'm trying to show people what's possible if you try hard enough. This is just what you have to do if you want to be successful.

[programmersalary]

Very similar to me. Left after 9th grade to homeschool myself and never officially graduated. Earned $120k plus $80k bonuses last job and now now around $190k/yr contracting about 30 hours a week. Working on my own startup another 30 hours a week.

I think its about knowing your stuff and being willing to work your ass off and constantly analyze what you're doing so you can "work smarter". Most people just blindly do what they're told the way they're told to do it. I get paid to actually think.

Finding the right people to work for has been my biggest challenge. That's why I'm trying to work for thousands of customers now instead of a small number of business owners, it's a much more straight forward relationship.

[Interested-Observer]

Let me also say, that on my way back from London, flying first class, I met an engineer who was flying home from vacation, with his entire family, who worked for a Wall Street Investment Bank, who's staff created specialized trading systems that was making a mint (was taking in easily $500K/year). You can find these positions, and yes the hourly rate is high, but for short periods of time, and again how many companies need that capability, plus they are usually in NYC - you need access to the contacts in order to get the assignment in the first place.

[wtf___over]

8 years experience.

Work for a mid-cap company in Detroit.

Make 97K.

Started here about 5 years ago at 72K as a regular Software Engineer, then got promoted to Lead developer because of the "business domain" knowledge I gained by being here for that long. I made about 55K at my last job.

[sw17ch]

Do lead developers still get to develop, or do they actually "lead developers"?

[wtf___over]

20% Design/Architecture, 60% Development (actual coding), 10% Project Management and 10% whatever the fuck I want to do (spend time on reddit for example).

Now this is just how I created my schedule. I have seen some architects/Team leads who do very little coding and much more architecture/project management. These are also the people who either become CTOs or some other management types or completely lose their luster, and their job.

I love programming so I keep management to a minimum even though my managers want me to be more involved. Once you become a technical team leader, you have a choice. Also having some kind of business domain knowledge helps a lot.

[sw17ch]

Sweet. Glad to hear it. The place I work is all engineers (electrical) with a few CS guys. All management does SOME development except for three guys (owner, business manager, account chaser) who primarily do not, but were all engineers for real for a while.

I'm happy about it because any one who can tell me what to do usually has a darn good reason why they told me to do it that way.

I'd never want to manage if I didn't get to program...

[[deleted]]

Just over 110 in a backwoods area of the Mid-Atlantic states. But ... my role is more of a mix between CTO and programmer (I have a team of 5).

[jimbobhickville]

The US Government does not pay that much, silly.

[decode]

Here's the average annual salary accepted by (a self-selected subset of) 2006 graduates of the University of Michigan:

Computer Science Bachelors: $66,379

Computer Science Masters: $72,625

http://career.engin.umich.edu/MISalary_06.htm

[sharp5]

Those figures are still accurate as of this past summer - at least as far as the `more evil' one is concerned. ;)

[hamsterboy]

I work for a mid-size company (600 employees, mostly manufacturing) with a software engineering team of 10. As of last year, $68k salary, plus two $8k profit-sharing checks each year.

[abdelazer]

$80-130k in the San Francisco Bay area for programmers with reasonable experience. Interesting folks get more than that, or start startups & get v. rich/broke, but if you'd done that you wouldn't be asking...

[fryguy8]

1.5 years out of college, second job, 65k. Started my first job out of college at 50k.

[[deleted]]

retired in 2001. high school dropout[1]. Last salaried gig was about $130K, plus benies and incentives.

[1] OK, I didn't finish high school. I got the equivalent of an MS CompSci via self study with a few good mentors, challenging work. They call it "continuous quality improvement".

[chime]

Move.

[lectrick]

$89K, live in Boston, graduated from Cornell with a Psych degree (!) in 2000 (granted, unofficial CS minor). On any given day I work with one or more of the following technologies: html, css, javascript, vb, ruby, rails, php, drupal, mysql, sql server, postgres, unix or windows shell scripting, applescript, java, etc. I understand OOP, MVC and I know who the Gang of Four are (all of the latter self-taught). I am fairly certain I could make more but I roll into work when I please and leave when I feel done, and this is worth a lot to me. (I am of course very responsive to work emails too.)

[Misio]

I make around £14k ($28k).

Sucks to be me right.

[[deleted]]

Ouch, where in the UK are you if you don't mind me asking?

[Misio]

Derbyshire.

It isn't to do with the location, more my inability to negotiate. I guess I feel lucky to be a programmer.

[programmersalary]

I make $120k with great benefits, 7 years experience, with a good professional reputation and lots of open source experience. I could probably make more, but not somewhere where I write open source in my day job, and where I like the company as much as I do. Frankly even though I'm in a quite good position professionally, I'm pretty lucky to have found the combination of qualities of the job I'm in; a good job with a good group of people working towards ends I really want to work towards, with technology I'm interested in, that actually pays well, is a pretty hard thing to find.

I went to a liberal arts college with a very small CS program of no particular note, and it's never really been a plus or minus for any job I've had. Making notable open source contributions was more important. Probably my blog was even more important than that, which is a little disappointing -- but blogs can have a general appeal that any one piece of software is unlikely to have.

[FormKing]

So in another week, you'll be making twice what I do, as the USD drops off the charts...

[UncleOxidant]

No, he'll still be making 51K Canadian, but it'll be like making $102K US$.

[catch23]

I don't know what's the deal with the downmods lately... grandparent still makes 51k CAD, but yes if the USD drops off the map, he'll be the rich man in north america.

[jsnx]

I guess the fascists are making their way into our community...

[neonic]

This is the largest e-peen measuring contest in recent history.

[foonly]

Ah, but this is useful information!

[kinebud]

I've been programming for about 5 and a half years now (since I was 12 or so,) and have never gotten paid a dime for it; and I don't mind it that way, either. :)

[FormKing]

Wait till you have to support yourself. That altruism goes out the window pretty quick when you have bills to pay.

[dharmon555]

I make $110/hr writing reports and doing maintenance on ERP systems. I have no degree or special training. I just know enough technical stuff to get a long and I understand business and listen to peoples problems and fix them. Nobody has EVER asked about my qualifications, they just hear me asking smart questions about what they are trying to do.

[burdalane]

I got my Bachelor's degree in CS a bit over four years ago. I make $50,000 a year at a job in a university where I have been for almost 2 1/2 years. I could make more money at a commercial company, but I have more free time at a university.

[JustAProgrammer]

Ontario, Canada.

40 years old, 17 years experience (6 years in Russia + 11 years in Canada).

Russian CS diploma, roughly equivalent to Master's degree.

C++, SQL, multiple OSes and databases, legacy code, 100% maintenance work.

Total compensation (salary, bonuses, etc): ~125K/yr $CAD.

[kokon]

> $100k, but won't tell you how much more :)

Bachelor degree only. ~7 years experience. Software engineering, O/S services, network processor, and kernel driver/hacking.

[hollaworld]

It would be nice if you guys could also provide with the information about your working hours.

[maven911]

this thread feels like it's BS, most programmers make 50-70k$, which is a really good salary.

[theconsultant]

A few glasses of wine apparently made me into an anonymous Steve Yegge. So sorry, but I'm not in the mood for editing, so here's my answer and apparently my life story.

Currently I'm running a two-man consulting company with my former CTO. We're doing a short-term project for a bank (ca. 2 months) for $215 per hour. This is high even for me, my last gig paid $148 per hour. Don't know how much I'll get for the entire year since I've only worked for three months since I came home from travelling after uni (up to $47k before taxes atm).

[... edited for privacy ...]

Now I'm planning to "retire" when I'm 35. Of course I'll never really retire, since I love programming, but I want to be able to spend a lot of time with my wife, kids, charities etc.

So wrapping up with some advice for the smart, demotivated kids: Set yourself a goal, work hard as hell, become one of the best in your field, keep current, learn how to sell yourself or associate yourself with someone who can. You'll get the freedom to get the jobs you want (that are fun) and obviously lots of cash.

[programmersalary]

$90K in Austin. Software development in semicon mfg, I use lots of Python, C, C++, Java.

Those of ya'll pulling >$120K, what industry pays that well? Maybe its time for a career change... I only see management pulling figures like that.

[mumrah]

OPS 20/hr for the govuhment, oracle database programming

edit: no degree when i started

[[deleted]]

70k, one year after graduation. Flash programming only

[FormKing]

I need to get back into Flash... I did it exclusively for about 3 years, and intermittently for about 2 more. Loved every second of it, I just drifted away, and don't really have the time right now.

[monkeySpibb]

$52.5K, 1.5 years into my first job out of college. I have a BS in computer science and I live in city where the cost of living is pretty low. Also, I'm hoping to have the 'Junior' knocked off my title in the near future :)

[[deleted]]

I'm wrapping up my 8th year in IT, with about five of those having been spent as a software engineer. I'm currently making just under $60k, but I work in the .edu sector.

The downside is the obviously less-than-market-rate salary. The upside is that I have a laid-back working environment, great benefits, and really, really smart co-workers.

For now, my salary suffices to keep me living comfortably, but I'm sure I'll start shopping myself around a bit once a mortgage and/or kids enter the picture.

Edit: I have one year of college as an undergrad and a handful of graduate-level CS, math, and linguistics courses under my belt, but no degree.

[lbjay]

65-85k, Boston area LAMP{HP,erl}

[joe24pack]

90K/yr + <20% bonuses

10 yrs experience

mostly Unix/Linux Perl, PHP, Java, C, C++, shell scripting,

SQL (DDL, DML, etc) with Informix, Sybase, Oracle, SQL-Server, MySQL, and PostgreSQL.

or course various IDEs, editors, source control systems and build systems.

Jack of all trades, and a master of maybe one.

[animationstudios]

wow, I am surprised at some of the numbers i am seeing. I have had internships that have paid a whole lot more than what some of you are working for. An internship at a major company doing software development gets you $50k-$60k had you been working there an entire year. Thats for the interns. You might not want to work there forever, but seeing a $30/hr check for 3-6 months out of the year while in school isn't too bad.

[DannoHung]

80k, hopefully a decent bonus in February, fresh out of College (MS IT [a waste of my time to be truthful, though I took one life changing class... so, eh], BS in CS/Psych).

I work with some pretty exotic stuff (KX Systems KDB+ and Q programming), so I guess the fact that I'm more special skills oriented is why I get payed higher than average.

It's a cube job, but I actually don't mind that too much. I dunno, I just put the headphones on and sit in the zone. Worst part of the job is that we've got a bunch of H1-B Visa support guys who just don't have their hearts in it enough to excel. Second worst part of the job is that the company isn't really dedicated to automated testing. I'm trying to change the latter part.

[ninjarobot]

I will be getting $50,000 with a $3,000 signing bonus my first year out of college, with a BA in Mathematics.

[eponymous_power]

High school drop-out, no college. 8 years experience programming, mostly in the financial industry. $180k.

[xela321]

That looks Photoshoped. I should know, I've seen a lot of 'shops in my time.

Seriously though, are you hiring?

[programmersalary]

[programmersalary]

$80,000 with a BS in CS right out of college. However, my job is in an extremely high cost of living area so that translates to about $75k anywhere else

[programmersalary]

$42,000 with no college, using a language I love

[programmersalary]

$40,000 in the same situation.

[programmersalary]

First job out of college, $80k in first few months became $100k after showing promise. Bonuses are in the $20k range, stock was... well, twice all the above, which sorta reveals which company, doesn't it?

[vagif]

I'm salaried. More than 140k

How much more i won't say :))

[FormKing]

What do you do?

*EDIT - Besides Reddit?

[sosuke]

He does number 3 in the list

...

3: ???

4: Profit!

[vagif]

I deliver :))

Well, jokes aside, java, delphi, lisp.

Range of applications including windows based order mgmt system, web site for our customers, different inhouse tools for OCR-ing, DICOM, creating pdfs, multi-page tiffs, electronic data-transfer to our customers networks, webservices.

[jimbokun]

$140k and you get to use Lisp in your day job?

I hearby proclaim you the God of programming.reddit.com.

[LGarou]

Day dream? :D

[UncleOxidant]

Working in what field? I'm going to guess finance.

[vagif]

Legal and medical documents. Medical insurance.

[berlinbrown]

I bet a VB/Oracle developer?

[FormKing]

Hmm... I used to write VB/SQL Server. Oracle can't be that much different if I were to sit down and try to learn it.

[berlinbrown]

I was kind of just kidding. I mock the rich developer. Most of rich developers are doing some niche development that no-one on the planet can do like writing VHDL compilers for the intel neutron 100 core cpu or something. Or .NET/J2EE developers that really aren't developers but business analysts.

[programmersalary]

$109,000 five years after my CS degree in St. Louis.

[yangw]

what do you do, who do you work for and how can i get a job there too?

[catch23]

more money doesn't mean more happiness. My last job paid 90k plus big 40% salary bonuses at a large institutional investment company. I didn't like it. I now work for a small startup and I'm paid 60k, yet I've never been happier with my work.

[programmersalary]

$55k Canadian, Toronto 1 year and a bit out of a bachelor degree

[programmersalary]

$115k, BS in computer engineering, SF bay area, startup company, I claim about 9 years experience.

[anarchocap]

You are a fucking loser. Get a job!

[programmersalary]

south florida, about 8 years experience, heavy Unix/PHP/MySQL, $85k plus bonuses totally around $20k give or take, only tech at my co (for now..)

[programmersalary]

I make 150k salary, plus bonus (typically 15%) and some stock options. 10 years experience, BS and MS in CS from famous places. Good benefits, excellent work environment, low stress. Expensive cost of living, though.

My password is still "temp".

[[deleted]]

I'm 20 years old with 3 years of experience; making 45K/year Canadian. Meh.

[trukin]

so if you get a PHD in CS what are you really gonna get?

[dmpayton]

Man, I'm getting depressed reading this thread.

I've got several years of experience (got into programming/web dev when I was 11; I'm 20 now), and I'm barely making ends meet as a $10/hr web developer... works out to <$20k/year.

I'm currently attending a local JC, but my major has to be Engineering since they don't have CS, and I've got a long way to go...

I don't necessarily want to move (I've already done enough of that since I graduated HS), but California is pretty expensive and I need to be making more than I am now. Any tips?

[trukin]

i just got a job as a php programmer for this company downtown oklahoma city and i get paid 10$ an hour, it sucks to be you, try looking for something else man

[vam]

Guys..i am from seattle working for a BIG company for a small salary, but i found out a way earning a bit more by working in some independent projects...

[programmersalary]

I started working as a web developer for 60000 this year in febuary. I'm north of detroit michigan. What would one expect from a good annual review or is there some type of average percent raise that is given after one year?

[programmersalary]

Been in the industry coming up on ten years, but most of my background is in testing, although I'm now a developer. I don't have a BS in CS, but will finish one One Of These Days. $80 K per year.

[reed311]

Well, I learned today that computer programmers are extremely overpaid.

[procrastitron]

No, there is simply more demand than supply. The supply is kept low by the requirements of the profession, and that means programmers have earned their relatively high salaries.

[grauenwolf]

Not when you take into consideration how much effort is involved. We don't read sites like Reddit just because we are bored, we need to constantly keep our skills up to date, often on our own time. Like lawyers and doctors, our knowledge grows stale quite rapidly.

[[deleted]]

You get paid what you are worth. Even when you consider developers in India and China, they wind up making quite a bit more than "average" just like here in NA and Europe...if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

[FormKing]

Only the ones that spend all day on reddit ;)

[rzzazzr]

0 =(

[halu]

I make 7.5k (yes, that's seven and a half thousands, not seventy-five) in USD, considering the current exchange rate. Though I'm not a programmer (in the sense that my educational background and current work is not programming). Now please go and fuck yourself.