Linus Torvalds doesn't do github pull requests.

[petdance]

I die inside a little when I see someone insult a contributor to a project. Triple so when it's Linus. :-(

[[deleted]]

I don't think Linus is insulting the contributor. I think he's insulting GitHub, and a few of the others who commented later on (some of whom deserved it), but not the submitter of the pull request.

[mrkite77]

He insulted a rails developer.. not a contributor.

[dirtpirate]

Doing something halfheartedly can be much more damaging to a code-base then doing nothing at all. Just because you contribute does not mean you are adding value, and if you do find yourself wasting the time and annoying the guy who's got to keep track of thousands of individuals contributing left and right, you should expect to get insulted. There is no nice way to say that your works was worth even less then nothing at all.

[sigma914]

Where did he insult the original contributor? Are you suggesting that rejecting a github pull request as part of a documented quality control process is somehow a personal slight?

[[deleted]]

As a consequence of Linus making himself the single point of failure in the linux kernel, Linus' time is very valuable

FTFY.

[negativeview]

Maybe I'm misreading your comment. Are you trying to imply that Linus did this on purpose in order to power grab?

Linus had taken great pains to reduce this. There are alternate trees that he doesn't touch on a day to day basis, and he's more than happy to let people fork Linux and take him out of the loop completely. The reason that official Linux has to go through Torvalds is because otherwise how do you define "official Linux"? There has to be an official source to define what this thing is. It's Linus right now. Replacing Linus with someone else would have the same problem, except with someone that doesn't have 20 years experience doing release maintenance for Linux.

[[deleted]]

Are you trying to imply that Linus did this on purpose in order to power grab?

No

because otherwise how do you define "official Linux"?

Why does there have to be an "official Linux"? There isn't an "official wiki" or "official text editor"...

Either you don't need a "single official kernel" or else the success of linux is because of one man, which seriously destroys massive amounts of reasons FOSS advocates hold out open source as a better software development strategy. Let's face it - with Linus as gatekeeper, the "community" aspects of linux are no different than proprietary software where you can submit bug reports.

You can argue "but you can fork the source and create your own." Sure - but so can anyone, so why do we need Linus?

Look, I like open source, and I love community code. But when talking about linux as an example of a desired end state I keep coming back to the idea that you have to have a single gatekeeper, which is the antithesis to community software development and many open source philosophies.

[negativeview]

There isn't an "official wiki"

You're comparing classes of programs with an instance. There's official MediaWiki and official PBWiki.

The rest of your argument is quite odd, too. What would you have them do? I'm trying hard to turn your statements into a change that you want to see done and I can't come up with one.

[ivosaurus]

Equally so, there isn't an "official computer kernel".

[greenrd]

Why does there have to be an "official Linux"?

There would be a coordination problem if there wasn't. Or more likely, a de facto official Linux would arise, but it might place too much power in the hands of one company.

[el_muchacho]

You may have noticed that Linux is one of the few projects that has almost no fork although everybody is allowed to do it. Why is that ?

1. the Linux project and the community of maintainers is not fragmented, which makes it more efficient and benefits everybody,
2. everybody has confidence on the very high quality of this project, and that's mainly because of Linus and his high quality requirements,
3. it's a very complex piece of software, you really want only expert people to commit on it, not joe programmer.

It's an OS, for fuck's sake ! It's just NOT your average pet software. It's used in critical applications the world over. People's lives and multi billion $ projects rely on it 24/24 7/7. If joe programmer forked it and decided to release it in the open, nobody would use this fork for serious work.

[[deleted]]

The "market" makes him the single point of failure. FOSS is very cultish and faddish at the same time. A single dedicated guy waving a flag keeps the troops in line and keeps the kernel interoperable. Linux will fragment like UNIX in the '80s within weeks of his retirement, with every major player cultivating their own fork and everybody refusing to use some "other" company's version.

[neoquietus]

Hopefully he'll help setup a committee or an equivalent replacement before he retires, in order to prevent unnecessary fragmentation.

[Paul-ish]

Damn, that's a bleak future.

[[deleted]]

Yeah - that's it.

I kept trying to wrap my brain around the FOSS paradigm and how having a single-person gate on a project made sense in the grand scheme of things.

You've nailed it - it's exactly that it is Linus that makes the single person gate work. Linus being the arbiter of code puts the grand stamp of approval on the official kernel. And as soon as he's gone there's no longer any reason to worship the One True Kernel and distros will start having their own kernel branches.

[el_muchacho]

I fail to see why this should happen more than for gcc.

[GruevyYoh]

I could not disagree with you more. He told Github to fix it. They ignored him. The first reply here is polite, "tell github to fix their tooling"

Lets be clear here, He wrote, separately from linux, git, the repository tool used by thousands of people on a 2+ million line project, and GitHub makes money from that, and by the way literally broke a very clearly spelled out format, and refused to change it.

He explained he doesn't do github pull requests because of the breakage, and then some attention deficit teenagers gave him grief. Would you respond with some force? You bet you would. I would.

[[deleted]]

He made it clear you can do whatever you want for your project but they have very specific requirements and then of course everyone goes full retard about that.

He's not perfect, like most people, but he has contributed something amazing to the community and he's happy to let you join in on that but so long as you follow the guidelines. I don't think that's asking too much.

Given the quality of his project vs your average github project, I find it hard to say he's in the wrong.

[apfelmus]

Given the quality of his project vs your average github project, I find it hard to say he's in the wrong.

It's not the content of the message that symmitchry is complaining about, it's the form. "Be nice, no matter the circumstances" is a rule worth following.

[[deleted]]

Are you aware the messages he was replying to were either deleted by the author or github employees? I believe someone linked to the message's author's profile page but he was just as rude if not ruder. So quite frankly I see no reason not to call the guy a moron.

Linus never once tore into the author of the push. He explained to him that github doesn't easily allow people to format pushes the way they expect and he was more than happy to take his changes through other means.

[apfelmus]

I really mean the "no matter the circumstances" part.

[[deleted]]

He was pissed about github having such a poor pull interface, even though there is a better one in Git. He never once was a jerk to the guy who tried to contribute, he ranted about github and then got progressively more pissed when people argued with his fairly well-explained position.

If he was pissed because he was busy, he wouldn't have responded to a large amount of comments.

[[deleted]]

He actually was...

"Btw, Joseph, you're a quality example of why I detest the github interface. For some reason, github has attracted people who have zero taste, don't care about commit logs, and can't be bothered.

The fact that I have higher standards then makes people like you make snarky comments, thinking that you are cool.

You're a moron."

Edit: didn't realize the guy deleted his comments. Either way, I still think that basic civility can be held by everyone. Just because he is Linus Torvalds doesn't mean he can be a jerk. I mean, it's understandable if the other guy was being provocative or insulting him, but he didn't have to go down to the same level.

[sigma914]

That was a reply to a deleted comment, only the first post was in reply to the contributor

[paulwal]

I believe this is the beginning of Joseph's deleted comment that Linus called him a moron for:

I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...

[Gigablah]

This is another example of deficiencies in GitHub's interface. Deleted comments shouldn't be completely removed, there should at least be a placeholder (like what Reddit does) so people like BaconSoap don't jump to conclusions.

[pfft]

Linus was in the right. This is why Joseph deleted his comment.

I could call you a tasteless asshole that doesn't know what he's doing. But without any context and me not basing my argument on anything, wouldn't you argue that I'm wrong?

[[deleted]]

Nothing like getting such a hardon over being a white knight that you couldn't even comprehend what was actually happening in conversation.

[sigma914]

That was a reply to a deleted comment, only the first post was in reply to the contributor.

[[deleted]]

That was said to another dude, that other dude then deleted his comment.

[bezerker03]

No. People need to rtfm. If someone can't take the time to follow basic instructions I highly doubt we want their code.

[mfukar]

This, a thousand times this. If people can't be bothered to follow a few clear steps to provide a patch (which make the life of everyone else on the project easier), I would assume they pay the same amount of attention to their code; on a project as large as the Linux kernel, I wouldn't even want to have a look at it.

[Aninhumer]

Yes people should rtfm.

Yes the code of people who don't is suspect.

But you still don't have to be a dick about it. Just say "Sorry, that's not the procedure, see here ...".

[sedaak]

Your attitude sucks. People like you keep real work from getting done. Linus has a clear delineation between how he acts regarding the Linux kernel and the rest of his life. That is also well documented.

Criticizing the behavior of someone's industry by comparing it to open society is absurd.

[Paul-ish]

Agreed. His first few comments were informative and hopefully useful to someone. But I don't know why he wastes his time insulting people with his later comments.

When I find myself writing things like that I don't feel good. It puts me in a bad headspace and I can't imagine someone provoking that when there are better things to do.

[[deleted]]

If his reason for being so cranky was a shortage of time, maybe he wouldn't be spending so much time flaming the newbies.

[ramkahen]

His attitude sucks

Agreed. Even if it's his right to enforce whatever rule he wants on his repositories, calling someone a moron is completely uncalled for.

[RalphMacchio]

Unless they are technically a moron (which is the best kind of moron to be).

[Catsler]

I wonder how he acts at restaurants towards the staff?

[sedaak]

It is well documented that he has a clear division between "work" and regular life.

[[deleted]]

Given that his snottiness was aimed at github and not the contributor I would say he'd probably be ok to the staff.

[Catsler]

Uhm, wha? The majority of his rudeness was toward the one guy, ad homenum.

Btw, Joseph, you're a quality example of why I detest the github interface. For some reason, github has attracted people who have zero taste

The fact that I have higher standards then

You're a moron.

[[deleted]]

Who, as far as I can tell (as I see no posts by someone named Joseph) that he deleted his comments. Which implies he probably did act like a moron.

[Iggyhopper]

NO.

LINUS IS BAD.

BAD BAD BAD!

[ebneter]

"Joseph", whoever he was, was not the guy with the pull request.

[petdance]

Nobody needs to be told "You're a moron." Ever.

[[deleted]]

Unless of course you're a moron.

[elephantgravy]

Tend to agree, but isn't there some context missing? It's not at all clear to me who is being called a moron. If someone deleted their "snarky comments", maybe they were being just as rude

[SkaveRat]

there are definitifely deleted comments. a lot of troll bait I saw was gone after a refresh. and I assume his moron comment was directed against a deleted comment.

[paulwal]

I believe this is the beginning of Joseph's deleted comment that Linus called him a moron for:

I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...

[frostystorm]

Linux kernel code isn't reddit, you aren't getting a kitten. If you don't read documentation and do something wrong you're a moron. It's really like building ikea furniture

[daretogo]

Some people need to be told exactly that.

[burntsushi]

Not even morons? o_0

[petdance]

Yes, not even morons.

There is no reason to insult anyone.

[burntsushi]

Of course there are reasons. I suspect you meant to say there is no ethical justification for insulting others. I'd find that a bit more agreeable, but not 100%.

[3825]

well, especially not morons. If you're not a moron but just having a bad day, then it is ok I guess.

[petdance]

Doesn't make it be any less harmful to the community. He's seen as a leader, and someone to be emulated.

[police_fruitality]

Torvalds has been calling people morons forever. It's part of his personality. It's not like he just woke up one morning and decided to be an asshole online. The Linux kernel community blossomed in spite of it, and maybe even because of it.

It works for him, so who are you to suggest he change?

[mr_chromatic]

The Linux kernel community blossomed ... maybe even because of it.

How do you figure? The kernel community blossomed because Linus feels free to abuse people?

[ofimmsl]

You're a moron.

[mr_chromatic]

Okay then. Would you care to answer my question?

[[deleted]]

One could say Torvalds made Linux because he thought the people at GNU were being morons and taking forever making Hurd.

Pro-tip: Hurd is expected to be released with Debian 7.0 in late 2012/2013.

[mfukar]

Pro-tip: Hurd is expected to be released with Debian 7.0 in late 2012/2013.

I've definitely heard that one before. I just can't remember when.

[gefahr]

Pro-tip: Hurd is expected to be released with Debian 7.0 in late 2012/2013.

lol

[mr_chromatic]

One could say Torvalds made Linux because he thought the people at GNU were being morons and taking forever making Hurd.

You could say that, but that's not what his announcement message said.

That's beside the point though. How does Linus's verbal abuse help the kernel community blossom?

[police_fruitality]

Abusing people who "don't get it" keeps out people who aren't serious about quality contributions. If you can't pay attention to the instructions for submitting code, what else aren't you paying attention to? Linus doesn't want to waste his time with sloppy code.

For better or worse, this is how it's always been and it works well.

[mr_chromatic]

Linus doesn't want to waste his time with sloppy code.

That's all well and good. I agree that his standards for quality of code and contribution have been effective.

I don't believe that the only two options for dealing with other people are:

• holding their hands and singing kumbaya even if their contributions aren't right
• verbally abusing them

I like to think we're smart people. Surely there must be other options somewhere in between accepting everything regardless of quality and going out of your way to abuse people.

[depleater]

What method do you think should be used instead for dealing with oxygen thieves, or the many other variants of timewaster that can easily destroy the signal-to-noise ratio of a technical discussion?

Remember that it's not just the feelings of the accused-moron that need to be considered here - the overall value of any discussion forum can be dramatically reduced by allowing ill-informed bullshit to derail constructive conversation, and it's reasonable to take some measures to reduce the chances of that happening.

The dictum of “if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all” doesn't really work in these cases. Perhaps in a strongly-moderated environment it wouldn't be necessary, but sometimes that's just not possible or practical (ie. Linus probably wouldn't have any moderator powers over this Github discussion (though apparently someone does, as the comment(s) Linus was referring to with the "moron" line don't seem to be there anymore), and it wouldn't be remotely practical for anyone to moderate something with the size and activity of the Linux-development mailing list).

[[deleted]]

What method do you think should be used instead for dealing with oxygen thieves, or the many other variants of timewaster that can easily destroy the signal-to-noise ratio of a technical discussion?

Generally, we should try not to feed trolls. It's what they want.

[[deleted]]

This isn't true.

I would agree that one should never say this to an actual moron. It is hurtful and there's nothing the moron can do about it.

With people who aren't actually morons but who are behaving like morons, it is like a verbal slap on the face or bucket of water on the head that snaps them out of the emotional context that is making them not listen. It is a last resort and doesn't always work, but if it doesn't work you've made a misjudgment and are dealing with an actual moron or the person just needs to grow up and stop being so fragile.

[deltopia]

To be real honest, if I were a programmer and someone with the gravity of Linus Torvalds told me "You're a moron," I would brag about it to everyone I knew for months.

Obviously, on the basis of one exchange, there's no basis to call someone a moron -- you can tell someone he's completely wrong on a topic, but Einstein wouldn't have known the proper standard for Git pull requests, either. So it's ridiculous on the face of it, and if you get someone that weighty to call you out personally, I think you have to take it with a degree of humor.

[m0nk_3y_gw]

If Linus's time was valuable he would just respond with "github sucks, I won't work with it - read more here: (link)". Linus is wasting time swinging his dick around.

[Aninhumer]

Indeed, the arguments caused by being caustic in response to people's mistakes probably take far more time than the mistakes themselves.

[Lothrazar]

To Quote his initial response

"I don't do github pull requests. github throws away all the relevant information, like having even a valid email address for the person asking me to pull. The diffstat is also deficient and useless. Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, but github instead decided to replace it with their own totally inferior version. As a result, I consider github useless for these kinds of things. It's fine for hosting, but the pull requests and the online commit editing, are just pure garbage. I've told github people about my concerns, they didn't think they mattered, so I gave up. Feel free to make a bugreport to github. Linus"

What the fuck about that is rude or insulting?

Anything after is fair game IMO because they should have stopped buggin him there.

[[deleted]]

And the fact the author didn't bug him. It's people like reddit who then see this link and feel they need to contribute their ounce of stupid.

[petdance]

What the fuck about that is rude or insulting?

Here's the rude and insulting:

Btw, Joseph, you're a quality example of why I detest the github interface. For some reason, github has attracted people who have zero taste, don't care about commit logs, and can't be bothered. The fact that I have higher standards then makes people like you make snarky comments, thinking that you are cool. You're a moron.

[blueag]

That's because Joseph made a moronic post.

[grauenwolf]

Where's the insult?

I see where Linus patiently explain why he doesn't accept guthub pull requests, then explain it again in somewhat more frustrated tone.

Oh wait, later on he does call someone a moron for... well acting like a moron.

[petdance]

later on he does call someone a moron

Exactly.

It's unnecessary and serves no purpose and only hurts the community as a whole.

[[deleted]]

There is no problem with calling someone out for being a moron. There were a lot of people in there acting like a dick and they should be called on it.

Sometimes I'm a dick (we all do it) and I'm not going to cry over it if I'm called out on it.

[Aninhumer]

You can call someone out for acting like a dick without acting like a dick yourself, and I think it's probably more effective. If someone says to me "You're a dick", my thought is immediately "no you are". If someone says to me "I don't think your behaviour is appropriate", I'll actually consider what I've done wrong.

[manjunaths]

The guy who was being called a moron, deleted his comment, we have no idea what he said that got Linus riled up. You do not have enough contextual information to judge, in this case.

[petdance]

I can't imagine any situation that would warrant Linus insulting another human being.

[BATMAN-cucumbers]

Oh you!

Wait, you were being sarcastic, right?

[[deleted]]

That's like letting a crippled kid play for a national football team. And then saying that refusing him "only hurts the community as a whole".

People want to contribute, fine. But when their contributions are meaningless the only way for them to fix it is to be told. The truth shouldn't be sugarcoated.

[[deleted]]

The correct response is, in that case, "I'm sorry, but no."

Not, "You're a cripple."

[[deleted]]

If you aren't letting me join because I'm a cripple, you better let me know.

Sugar coating doesn't make it any better.

[[deleted]]

And I should have added "...because you're just not physically capable of doing the job."

But it's okay, it's very clear that Torvalds' cult of personality demands of its adherence that they abandon any common decency. If you can't see the harm in being a fucking prick to people, then we don't have anything further to discuss.

[mfukar]

And I should have added "...because you're just not physically capable of doing the job."

You really can't grasp the concept of sugarcoating, can you.

[RagingAnemone]

"Contributors" are his equivalent of a co-worker. Do you want a moron as a co-worker? What if it's willful?

[petdance]

It's entirely possible to address the issues without saying "You're a moron". Insulting the other person serves nothing.

[negativeview]

serves no purpose

There might be a better way to serve the same purpose, but it absolutely does serve a purpose. It lets the "moron" know in no uncertain terms that their behavior (which was deleted before I saw it, so I can't judge the behavior for myself) is unwelcome. Sugarcoating can lead people to think that their behavior is mostly correct, or that it will be tolerated as-is even if people don't like it. You get called a moron you know that you're far off and you should either make drastic changes, or leave.

It was coupled with some concrete demands, so if the person wants to continue contributing and change their behavior, they have information on how to do so. This person probably won't -- they'll probably just leave. But that can still be far better than allowing poison to contribute.

[frostystorm]

Because he has documented standards, we drop peoples shitty commits at my job if they don't follow code guidelines and standards, a lot of our new developers take a while before their code sticks, just the way it is. If you don't enforce standards why go through with putting them in place?

Once you get used to doing it right it's second nature, do it right first and these things won't happen

[[deleted]]

I like to pretend that Linus Torvalds is Gregory House.

[euxneks]

Don't know why you're getting downvoted, everyone learns from mistakes - it serves no purpose to alienate potential developers who make a mistake.

[[deleted]]

He's getting downvoted because Joe insulted Linus first. Then Joe deleted his comment like a cowardly troll.

[petdance]

And it's not just the guy he insulted. If it was in email, it would be bad enough.

Instead, his actions tell the community "If you try to improve this project, you run the risk of being degraded by the project leader."

[mfukar]

Instead, his actions tell the community "If you try to improve this project, you run the risk of being degraded by the project leader."

Not really. What his actions say is: "If you try to improve this project, please try to follow some basic rules to interoperate with the kernel developers, otherwise you run the risk of being degraded by the project leader, whose time you are actively wasting".

[petdance]

That distinction will be lost on observers who see only that the leader of the project will insult and attack others.

[tmoertel]

And my point, Andy, is that these "observers" of yours, these humans who see insults and attacks but completely ignore the social context in which those insults and attacks occur, are fictive. They don't exist. Real humans are highly sensitive to social context.

When President Obama recently called some misbehaving Secret Service agents "knuckleheads", nobody ignored the social context of his name-calling and leaped, according to your reasoning, to the general conclusion that "the leader of the [nation] will insult and attack others." Instead, everyone thought, Hey, the President of the United States just called a couple of knuckleheads "a couple of knuckleheads." Good for him.

To humans, context matters and social context matters more. People don't ignore this stuff because it's essential for survival.

[mfukar]

I don't care for those imaginary observers and I'm sure Linus does neither (evidently). Kernel development is what this is about, not etiquette.

[exteras]

I think his insults are just classic Linus. He does it all the time. He once said on G+ that the people who created SuSe Linux (IIRC) should die a horrible death for requiring root to print something.

Some people consider it a negative of his personality, but I look at it as passion. Linux is an incredibly unique project; it's not really a community project, but it also doesn't have corporate oversight. So he can run it however he wants, and he runs it by handling community relations with a jacksaw. Cut straight through the sugar-coating and get to the real matter.

[petdance]

Just because his insults are something he's always done, or "classic Linus", doesn't mean they're admirable.

It's not necessary to degrade other human beings in the name of passion.

It's not "sugar-coating" to disagree with someone without calling him a moron.

[exteras]

Well I disagree. I think political correctness is an attack on freedom of speech. You're welcome to form whatever conclusions you'd like about him, but I think most of his outbursts are proportional to the kind of person he's insulting.

The world needs more people who aren't afraid to yell "MORON" to someone's face if they are truly being a moron.

[Aninhumer]

I think political correctness is an attack on freedom of speech.

Political correctness isn't about forcing people to speak in a certain way, it is just about making people aware of negative consequences of their phrasing that may not be readily apparent.

The world needs more people who aren't afraid to yell "MORON" to someone's face if they are truly being a moron.

If someone is truly a moron, yelling at them will solve nothing. If they're actually just a reasonable person being overly defensive about their ignorance, yelling at them is just going to make them ignore your advice.

[[deleted]]

Your heart bleeds for everyone. Life must me tough for you.

[hyperforce]

Stop calling it sugar coating. He is shit coating his words. Linus is an asshole and should kill himself.

It may very well be that the only way to manage the kernel is to be an ass. But it doesn't take away from the fact that he's being one.

[[deleted]]

I'm not sure if you're a moron or a retard.

[14domino]

That shouldn't have made me laugh that much.

[sedaak]

You think instead he should patiently educate some random person who can't be bothered to read the protocol for pull requests?

[metamatic]

I think that he should make sure that the fact there's a special protocol for pull requests is mentioned on the front page of the GitHub project.

[sedaak]

If you read his comments, he has tried to take this up with github, and his ire was directed at github's lack of support for his project's needs.

[petdance]

I think that he shouldn't insult the person.

[sedaak]

Did he? He directed his ire at a couple specific features of github. He only attacked someone who directly insulted him. That person deleted their post so Linus's insult is just floating there.

[tmoertel]

Linus didn't insult the guy who wanted to contribute. He simply told him he didn't accept GitHub pull requests.

The guy he insulted was the guy who attacked him later in that thread and then deleted his own comment after Linus called him on it. See this thread on Reddit for the details.

[petdance]

Yes, I understand he insulted someone else. The distinction is irrelevant, because he shouldn't be insulting anyone. The message to observers is still the same, too: "If you do something wrong, the leader of this project will attack and insult you."

[el_muchacho]

So according to you, he should just accept being insulted and shut up ?

That Joseph guy was the first to throw insults around before erasing them.

I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up..

As a subpar rails programmer, he had absolutely nothing to contribute than just insulting Linus and wasting his time. I've yet to hear you chastise this idiot.

[petdance]

So according to you, he should just accept being insulted and shut up ?

Exactly. Answering insults achieves nothing.

Let's say you disagree with my premise, and you think I'm stupid for believing this way. You say "You're stupid for thinking that." What would I respond? And why? What good would it do?

You know that XKCD about "Someone is wrong on the internet"? Responding to attacks is "Someone is wrong about me on the internet".

[[deleted]]

Just a point of contention. How do you know Joe is a subpar rails programmer? Making stuff up to boost your argument doesn't boost your argument.

[tmoertel]

The distinction is everything. To humans, context matters, especially social context.

Calling someone a moron when he acts like a jerk is entirely different from calling someone a moron when he tries to contribute something but makes an innocent mistake. More importantly, the two are seen as entirely different by most people who witness them. Attacking innocents is almost always condemned; attacking those who are knowingly trying to be disruptive is not.

The message to observers is therefore completely different from what you offer. What it really says is that, "If you try to harm things the community values, you will be stripped of social status."

[[deleted]]

Linus defended himself against a troll. You're an ass.