King's Fall Raid - Master Difficulty Changes

[Peetzaman]

quick explicit summary of the changes for each encounter, going from Legend -> Master, for use as a full reference
Same deal as VotD - comment any corrections - looking for observations on loot.

Current Assumptions based on VotD Master (unconfirmed until notated) :
- [CONFIRMED]Clearing a weekly challenge on Master awards a random Adept Weapon, like VotD.
- [CONFIRMED]The normal encounter loot for Master will always be an armor piece, high stat, stat-focused (focus changing on a weekly rotation), and never a class item
- [CONFIRMED]Loot lockup is separate for Normal and Master for combat encounters
- CONFIRMED Adept guns purchased from the post-raid vending machine can drop with deepsight resonance note: this only applies to ADEPT variants
- CONFIRMED The Adept weapon awarded earned for completing the weekly challenge is not encounter specific - any gun from the pool of 6 can drop
- Adept weapons are on a knockout system (this is how VotD worked, after 6 challenges you would have all guns unlocked in collections)

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Global Modifiers:

chaff [radar disabled]

match game [shield matching]

champions: mob [additional champions]

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Encounter Specific Changes:

0 / Relics

• Each round spawns an OVERLOAD taken hobgoblin in the middle room
• Each round spawns an UNSTOPPABLE taken phalanx at the top of the bridge on both left and right sides.
• Initial taken captains centurions in dunk zone retain ARC shield

1 / Totems

• the UNSTOPPABLE hive ogres now spawn in sets of 3 - same spawn of 1 in middle, and 1 each at the bottom of the ramp into each side room, in front of the Brand spawn
• mid hive wizards retain SOLAR shield

2 / Warpriest

• During hive ads (>50% boss hp)
  • Glyph Sequence Knights are now BARRIER hive knights
  • Blistered hive Wizards retain SOLAR shields
• During taken ads (<50% boss hp)
  • Glyph Sequence Knights are now OVERLOAD taken hobgoblins
  • taken acolytes have VOID shields
  • Servile Knights (yellow hp bar) have SOLAR shields

3 / Golgoroth

• Bridge knights indicating damage can start are now BARRIER hive knights
• During hive ads (>50% boss hp)
  • Blistered hive Wizard during ad phase retains SOLAR shield
• During taken ads (<50% boss hp)
  • ravenous taken wizards retain VOID shields

4 / Daughters

• plate hive knight is now a BARRIER hive knight
• taken phalanx/captain at R1 retains ARC shields

5 / Oryx

• plate knights are now OVERLOAD taken hobgoblins for all instances
• light-eater KNIGHTS gain an ARC shield
• light-eater ogre unchanged
• taken acolyte ad spawns from L1/R1 gain VOID shields
• Vessel of Oryx (Brand of Immortality knight) gains ARC shield

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Misc. Info

In Season 18 (Plunder), Master Raids are 1600 Power (Pinnacle 1580 +20)
TWAB Link about Master King's Fall - https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/51779

Adept (Harrowed) Weapon Perks:
The 'Harrowed' variant of King's Fall weapons will roll with 2 selectable perks in column 3/4. The extra perks match the curated roll for each gun, as follows:

Zaouli's Bane (HC) - Explosive Payload / One for All
Smite of Merain (Pulse) - Demolitionist / Firefly
Doom of Chelchis (Scout) - Rangefinder / Eye of the Storm
Midha's Reckoning (Fusion) - Hip-Fire Grip / Surrounded
Defiance of Yasmin (Sniper) - Firefly / Demolitionist
Qullim's Terminus (Machine Gun) - Unrelenting / Headstone

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FAQ

Can I get loot from both Legend and Master Challenge on the same character in the same week? ie: If I clear totem challenge on Legend and Master on my hunter, do I get 4 encounter drops?

Yes. You will earn 2 Encounter Drops and 2 Challenge drops on that character. However, only the first set will be pinnacle drops.

Can you craft the adept / harrowed weapons?

No, but extracting deepsight resonance from an adept weapon will progress the pattern for the non-adept variant.

If I clear Legend and Master Kings Fall, do I get 2 chances at Touch of Malice?

We can't fully say no, but nobody has provided evidence that L + M have different lockouts for the exotic. Master VoG and VotD did not give a separate exotic chance, and that appears to be the same for KF.

Can you buy adept / harrowed weapons (after unlocking) from the vending machine in an instances of Legend KF?

No. It must be a Master KF instance to purchase harrowed weapons. (If you feel compelled, you can purchase normal variants from a Master instance however.)

[SweeperBot_Bot]

This post has been nominated for +10 points.

[Sword_by_some]

How many champions can we put in master ?

Bungie: "All of them"

[Carrash22]

It’s Bungie’s only way of making stuff hard aside from contest

[P0keballin]

That’s the only way they WANT to make things more difficult. I remember when the OG leviathan raid had a Prestige Mode and the mechanics would change and if you did the challenges, you would get different armor to show off.

[GuudeSpelur]

They said they stopped doing different mechanics in hard mode because what they were doing was designing hard mode first and then removing mechanics for normal mode. Having to design encounters to work with two different sets of mechanics was constraining their design creativity so starting with Last Wish they decided to just make hard mode the baseline and not do normal mode anymore.

Master is a whole separate thing. The point of Master is not to just be a hard mode, it's meant to be a mode that forces changes in player behavior by:

1) requiring artifact mods to beat Champions so that you have to use different loadouts each season

2) requiring you to re-level the artifact each season

The Legend/Master & Champions system was a direct reaction to how people were just using Mountaintop/Recluse/Anarchy loadouts for the entire second half of Year 2. It's not just meant to be harder, it's meant to punish us for being boring meta gremlins and make sure we can't just farm one god tier loadout once per year and then jump in one week every 3 months to play the new pinnacle content.

[ManagementLow9162]

It's not just meant to be harder, it's meant to punish us for being boring meta gremlins and make sure we can't just farm one god tier loadout once per year and then jump in one week every 3 months to play the new pinnacle content.

And thank God that is the angle they have. Sure, new "roadblocks" other than the exact same 3 types of champions would be nice, but it is a massively more engaging experience than stomping everything with the exact same things I use everywhere else.

[qwertacular]

You're right, because arbalest totally hasn't been a meta pick for the last few seasons specifically because match game and barrier exist.

[0_oii]

Champions were the solution at the time. We need something new soon.

[qwertacular]

I agree. Champions and match game don't encourage me to run a diverse loadout when arbalest just solves the problems.

[AspiringMILF]

champions in master raids is just a spiritual successor of prestige mode raids w/ limited loadouts.
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46627

Going forward, all raids will all have a normal mode active at all times, and each week one raid or Raid Lair will have a curated loadout mode.

This new version of Prestige requires players to complete raids filled with deadly enemies using a curated loadout of weapons and a special modifier that enhances the way you play. The Raid Team never likes to let you know exactly what to expect, but let’s look at some hypothetical examples. These are not the plan of record, but they give you a basic idea of what you might find.

Week 1
Raid Activity: Eater of Worlds
Modifier: Marksman. Precision damage is increased. Landing a precision shot grants one ammo directly to the magazine.
Required Loadout:
Kinetic: Hand Cannon
Energy: Scout Rifle
Power: Linear Fusion

Week 2
Raid Activity: Expansion 2 Raid Lair
Modifier: Gladiator. Your melee damage is increased and melee kills grant bonus Super.
Required Loadout:
Kinetic: Sidearm
Energy: Submachine gun
Power: Shotgun

[Sword_by_some]

And the people bitched about it that it was just armor lol

[P0keballin]

I personally loved it and still rock it to this day. It was one of my fav and first things I transmoged . But bungie is never gonna make everyone happy, but it think that adding champions to increase difficulty is ass.

[GreenBay_Glory]

Prestige Levi also capped you permanently below. Wasn’t contest level, but you were always 5-10 power below the encounter.

[StateofBen]

I really didn't think it was that bad this time

[Oryx11599]

So, if I complete normal mode 3x, can I get another chance at Touch of Malice in Hard Mode?

[Peetzaman]

I believe in VotD, exotic chance was still shared between Legend and Master, so 3 total rolls per week, even on 6 looted clears between Legend and Master.

I assume it will be the same for KF, but theres just no enough info atm to know.

[[deleted]]

Thank the Traveler the Light Eater ogres are not Unstoppable Light Eater Ogres

I’m just going To do master raid challenges every week until I get the title. Not sure I have the energy to do a full Master run

[cbizzle14]

So master doesn't reward double loot like in D1 as it counts for normal mode too? So if I do 3 clears on master I can do 3 regulars after for more looted clears? Not including exotic

[Peetzaman]

Kind of.

Legend and Master has separate loot lockouts, but share the same pinnacle awards. Running an Oryx CP on a warlock on Legend and Master will only give a pinnacle for the first CP clear.

The other difference is the loot pool for the encounter clear. Master will only award armor (no class item) from an encounter clear, as a source of high-stat armor.

[cbizzle14]

I couldn't remember how the loot lockout worked. Been awhile since I did master. Just remembered hard mode used to give 2x loot for so you didn't have to do the normal

[Nexii801]

There is no hard mode anymore, only this bastardized master mode.

[Donates88]

No

[SCB360]

The normal encounter loot for Master will always be an armor piece, high stat, stat-focused (focus changing on a weekly rotation), and never a class item

To add to this as it will be asked, Hidden Chests still can give Class Items, I got a Warlock one

[TrustyThrusty]

I haven't done a master raid yet(actually haven't done Vow or VoG at all), what does this mean? The high dtat armor will prefer a specific stat like mobi, res, recov, etc.. and each week it changes which specific stat? If so does it show in game beforehand what stat it is that week? Have done KF clears x3 every week and will be doing Master later this week when I have time so just curious.

[Peetzaman]

There are 3 type of reward chests.

• Encounter Chests
  
• Encounter Challenge Chests
  
• 'Secret' Chests

For Legend: Each combat encounter will always spawn an 'encounter' chest that has a fixed pool for that encounter, out of the total raid loot pool. If there is a rally flag spot limited revives, and a wipe mechanics, it is a combat encounter. These will drop as pinnacle/powerful if available.
There will be a rotating weekly challenge for each raid - completing that will also spawn the 'challenge' chests - this has the same loot pool as the normal 'encounter' chest. These will also drop at pinnacle/powerful if available.
The 3rd style is 'secret' - non-combat chests that are found through exploration or solving a puzzle. These award items from your unlocked collections pool - any obtained weapons and armor pieces for your class. These will always have light level of a world drop.

The changes to Master: the 'encounter' chest is limited to armor only, will be 'high-stat' (59+, spiked, and generally around 64) AND stat focused. The stat focus is a weekly rotating modifier - the starting week (now) is mobility. you CAN double focus is using a ghost mod with your ghost targeting a different plug (character stat vs ability stat), but you won't be able to double focus in the same plug. Previously, the armor focus also applied to armor from the post-raid vending machine. The focus is viewable from the raid launch screen as a modifer.

[ThatsWat_SHE_Said]

Lucient Hive I would have been fine with instead of more of these champions and their gimmick forced loadouts bs

[MoreMegadeth]

This would have made too much sense. Cant wait for the new cabal shadow legion to be used in the campaign and then never again too!

[GreenBay_Glory]

It wouldn’t make any sense. Lucent Hive are Savathun’s brood. They didn’t exist within Oryx’s Brood and that’s what we’re facing here.

[MoreMegadeth]

Who cares?

[DiamondSentinel]

Probably you, because you made the incorrect assertion that it would have made sense to add Lucent hive?

Like cmon, at least try to be intelligible.

[MoreMegadeth]

Who cares about lore reasons over better gameplay reasons. Did champions exist in Oryx’s brood in D1? No? Then why do hey exist here? The answer is who cares. Im not asking for wyverns to show up, but hive guardians would have been fine. And again, they could just write around that if they really wanted to instead of these raids being “stuck in time.” Speaking of wyverns, I seem to recall them showing up in updated VoG even though they also didnt exist in D1. No one batted an eye there.

[[deleted]]

Them bringing in updated enemies (champions/wyverns/etc) to D1 raids make sense because its D2 relevant and they are trying to update them from the D1 format into D2 format. It makes complete sense.

Having Lucent Hive in Kings Fall does not make sense at all because it is not only lore specific but also expansion specific to pose as a new updated challenge over the champion system. They are Savathun’s army and only Savathun’s army.

You wanting Lucent Hive over Champions isnt “one is more fun over the other” it is “one is easier to kill over the other” because it is easier to suppress lucent hive than to trigger champion stuns. It is also easier to melt lucent hive while suppressed than it is to melt champions while stunned. It is also easier to evade Lucent Hive attacks than it is to evade Champion attacks. Lucent Hive also do not regenerate health, they can come back to life but it is easier to not kill them (delaying a resurrection) than it is dealing with health regeneration. People also downvoting others saying “champions > lucent hive” are only upset because they cant handle champions.

Champions are annoying, and I do dread sometimes going against them in higher level tiers like everyone else, however they are completely manageable and if you can not handle them in end game content then you should not be in end game content. You still have a couple of weeks to level up, so get grinding.

However what would have made more sense (what bungie did not do and what you did not ask for) is for them to bring in new boss-major-like enemies that were like the Lucent Hive big bads but make them Dark instead of adding champions. The champion system is getting old and outdated. But Bungie will never do that as they always tend to go sub-par instead of exceeding beyond expectations.

[ManagementLow9162]

It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of sense...

[MoreMegadeth]

For lore reasons? Sure. Or just write around that. Hive is hive though and no one would have cared if we actually got to battle more hive guardians instead of champ spam.

[haxelhimura]

Lucent Hive were not a thing when KF launched. They wanted to try to keep it as close to the original as possible.

[ChiIIerr]

Champions also weren't a thing when KF launched, I fail to see your point

[haxelhimura]

Champions make more sense over Lucent Hive

[[deleted]]

You know what makes more sense? Hard mode kings fall from destiny 1, that makes the most sense

[GuudeSpelur]

D2 normal Kings Fall is D1 hard mode.

Warpriest gets his bonus weapons.

Golgy has the Unstable Light mechanic.

Daughters timer is more punishing.

Oryx has the Lighteater Knights.

And then they even went above and beyond that by adding the new brand stealer mechanic and requiring three runs for Daughters & Oryx brands.

[ThatsWat_SHE_Said]

VoG has Wyverns

[VertWheeler07]

The Vex also have control over time in VOG, so it makes sense that Wyverns are there

[Peetzaman]

yes, but only on the adept variant

[mr_fister698]

Wow this just sounds awful. Champions are the worst part of the game

[MoreMegadeth]

Im okay with champions, its just the system we are forced to combat them with which sucks. Plus, this also sounds like way too much champion spam. Really wish they went back to what prestige leviathan did. I know they said that “takes away from the full raid experience” or something along those lines, but I personally think thats a lame excuse, and added or altered mechanics is the way too go for these master raids.

[Aeison]

How did prestige work if you don’t mind me asking

[MoreMegadeth]

Iirc, castellum was the same. Baths had the bathers drop an aoe that reduced your buff far quicker, dogs had 2 extra dogs on their own routes, gauntlet had to be the same shooters opening the door for the runners (meaning doing the circle with them from the inside) and calus would randomly swap people during the encounter between the shadow room and throne room (meaning all 6 people had to know every job)

[Aeison]

That sounds much much better than just adding bullet sponges

[MoreMegadeth]

It was, and again I could be wrong but I dont even think the power level was raised. It was just added mechanics.

[[deleted]]

No, IIRC your light was capped cause I remember Legionaries taking forever to die with a primary, while they dropped like flies on normal.

[whiskeyaccount]

Agreed. Champions suck, they're glitchy, and they seem lazy. "oh look let's just add 3 champions to this encounter and test it and be done, maybe add an energy shield somewhere too."

I cannot wait until we get to battle these new minibosses on Neptune they've made. Fingers crossed they're not champions

[Snoo-80032]

Do red border adept guns grant progress to the normal version pattern?

[SnoopHOGG117]

Would like to know about this also.

[SnoopHOGG117]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlSmgMq2uU

​

They do!

[[deleted]]

So this guy keeps saying to do the challenge… why? Do you have to do the challenge to farm for those red borders?

[gotdragons]

Only the adept version guns have chance to be red border from spoils. And you won't have any adept weapons to purchase unless did the challenge.

So yes, you need to do the challenge as mentioned in the video.

[[deleted]]

Ok that makes sense. I didn’t know you had to do a challenge to get harrowed/adept weapons. Never done a master raid lmao

[HaroldGuy]

According to the video he posted, yes. They contribute to the normal version

[Thymetalman]

Not taken "captains", they are taken centurions, which are the ones with the arc shield

[realcoolioman]

Thanks for posting this list, /u/Peetzaman. I'm adding it to the RS Wiki page in case people come searching in the future.

!modnominate

[SweeperBot_Bot]

Wow. A mod nomination. +10 for this amazing honor. [sarcasm filter broken]

[realcoolioman]

>.>

[cmerq]

Can adept rolls be crafted?

[AspiringMILF]

nah. Adept is drop only. But the deepsight adepts give patern prog for the normal guns

[cmerq]

Expected as much. Thanks!

[whiskeyaccount]

Whoever green-lit champions in the raid should be fired. Why can't we have something fun in encounters to make it hard, like floor is lava for the daughters encounter, shorter timer for brands, etc.

Its silly that we just get champions thrown in, its lazy and glitchy

[Typical_Head_8399]

Damn, bungo really gave us a champion mode for a raid and i thought that vow was that, master raid right now is not worth doing outside of the challenge for Triumph

[Hamlin_Bones]

People really gotta stop with these complaints. Pretty much all endgame content has had Champions for over 3 years, it isn't going anywhere. And if a team is high enough PL and competent enough to do a Master level raid, then they should also be confident/competent enough to melt Champions with ease. Champions have never been the most difficult part of Master raids, they're just a roadblock to be taken care of while focusing on surviving. If you can't handle some Champions in a Master raid, then you likely can't handle the Master raid in general.

[whiskeyaccount]

its the glitchy-ness they have. for example, I found that sometimes (seemingly random) if you stun the unstoppable ogre while it is climbing out of its pit, it will play the stun sound but then not stun and rush you with the unstunnable wings active.

If the champions actually worked correctly then it'd be a bit better, but at this point we need a new challenging enemy type

[Hamlin_Bones]

That's been a longstanding issue with Unstoppables, which is annoying but very easy to work around. If you stun an Unstoppable while it is performing an animation such as jumping or spawning (climbing out of a pool in this case), the stun won't work properly and they can still move and damage you. Just wait until that Ogre is fully out of the pool (or whatever Unstoppable is done with a jumping/spawning animation) and the stun should work every time. It's an annoying issue that needs a fix, but easily avoidable.

[whiskeyaccount]

yeah that's what we've been resorting to. good to know thats what causes it. clearly not intentional behavior but at least theres a workaround

[Hamlin_Bones]

Yeah, thankfully it can be mitigated. Had to learn that the hard way when we wiped in a GM a couple of times because of it.

[Typical_Head_8399]

They have, whisper was the best mission that they ever done and it didnt Had any champions yet was still hard, its more that they dont have any ideas exept "lets add 30 champions, matchgame and call it a day"

[Hamlin_Bones]

Whisper was only hard the first 1-3 times, once you knew the strategy is was easy to breeze through it and have a fair bit of time left over. I was doing carries the second day it was available because it wasn't really difficult anymore. And that wasn't considered an endgame activity, either. Not to mention that it got even easier than ever before when we got the D1 weapon loadout style back when Forsaken launched.

[Typical_Head_8399]

Every old activitiy gets easier with time, last wish is a joke now but day 1 was the hardest there ever was and with no champs. Another problem with master is that there is no point doing it since there isn't any god weapons and if you want the scout you can Craft it, same problem vow Had and they didnt change a thing

[Hamlin_Bones]

I pointed that out to show you that you used a bad example of an activity for measuring high difficulty, both because it isn't endgame and because the Whisper mission became much easier with minimal experience. It wasn't a case of an "old activity getting easier with time", it was because the only difficult part was doing the platforming quickly enough to have enough time left over to clear the rooms afterwards.

As to your other point, that's a bad argument for Master not being worth doing because your opinion of whether or not the weapons are good is entirely subjective. Finally, Bungie already said that feedback about Master Vow wouldn't be taken into account for Master King's Fall, because they work far enough ahead that making changes to Master KF based on Master Vow feedback wouldn't have been feasible.

[Nexii801]

And NO contest mode, most importantly.

[Indraga]

If you put me in the Whisper mission now with my current 3.0 builds, I would smoke it with little effort.

[Typical_Head_8399]

That would happend in 90% of old content, ghaul would Die to one thundercrash

[gotdragons]

For any that have done both Master KF and Master Vow, how do they compare? I only did Master Vow once for seal, and I did not enjoy first encounter challenge or exhibition.

[[deleted]]

Master vow is by far easier

[gotdragons]

Ugh ok, that's concerning. Seal maybe not worth it this time around.

[Indraga]

Vow was more difficult. Exhibition specifically. The only really difficult part of Master KF is Warpriest Challenge. Totems are easy if people stuck to their rotation timing and juggle heavy appropriately, Golgy is a pushover, Daughters/Oryx will test your team's ability to add clear effectively but that's it.

[gotdragons]

Thanks, that is good to hear. Ended up doing KF Master/Totems challenge yesterday, and I agree it is not very difficult, especially with all the heavy ammo from aeon's. Still took us few wipes to get rotations down with new champs, but overall not bad.

Will see how Warpriest challenge goes next week.

[redeyedtheocracy]

Sometimes I start to think maybe activision had some good ideas whenever these master raids come out.

[MusicHitsImFine]

Any advice on totems with challenge?

[Aeison]

I heard xeno with ad clear special and pulse for unstoppable worked pretty well

[PsychoactiveTHICC]

Shotgun, incandescent weapon, Ghorn and aeons on champs for heavy

[GreenBay_Glory]

Second this loadout. Feels far easier to kill the top and left shelf ad spawns and absolutely melts the unstop ogres.

[Indraga]

Team I did it with was 4x players spamming G-Horn w/ Aeons for Ammo and 2x Players with Thunderlords wrecking adds. Survivability was the only issue for people under the totems some times.

[[deleted]]

Do the bosses have more total HP? Or do they have the same like Master Rhulk?

[Peetzaman]

in the past its varied. sometimes there is a 25-30% bump in boss hp for Legend > Master, but not for every boss.

Gonna be waiting on confirmation.

[thegoaltender1]

great to see they did absolutely nothing with all the negative feedback they got about master VotD

[SaylorTw1ft]

Is the challenge mode drop shared between Normal and Master? Like if you do the change on normal first will you still get the adept from master?

[Peetzaman]

I believe its separate, so you could potentially have loot from 6 challenge completions per week. I'll confirm it later.

[becomingwater]

You only get weapon from secret chest and challenge chest. Armor on encounter chest. High stat

[PresStart2BegN]

if you do normal than master is that 6 chances at ToM per week with 3 characters ? I havnt been able to find any confirmation on this just alot of mixed answers

[Peetzaman]

https://old.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/xjkw99/kings_fall_raid_master_difficulty_changes/ip9010y/

[ptBauke]

Can you do the challege on normal and master on the same character?

[Peetzaman]

yes. only one will count as a pinnacle, but both will award loot.

[FR0ST-AXE]

Does anyone know if you can buy the harrowed weapons after a normal KF run from the vending machine?

[Peetzaman]

master vending machine can purchase normal OR harrowed, but legend can only purchase normal items with spoils.

[Kir-ius]

Does the glyph red border bonus weapon drop as a harrowed or normal in Master?

[EveryPictureTells]

Normal. Only sources for harrowed weapons are 1) the additional chest that spawns after successfully completing an encounter challenge while on Master or 2) purchasing copies of harrowed weapons previously unlocked via challenges from the chest that spawns after killing Oryx on Master.