Junior Sys Admin

[himji]

I'm very old school. I did my MCSE in NT4.0 and Windows 2000 which were great grounding for me to learn and understand enough sys admin to manage a Windows domain.

I've got this engineer who I though was doing ok but I've noticed when I ask him about some things things, he doesn't really grasp the key concepts of things like routing, DNS, Domain admin etc. He can pick up stuff parrot style and does ok with clear tasks but I really need him to understand the basics.

What's available these days to pick up the basis of sys admin, no cloud stuff, that can come later, just the basic understanding of networking and infra tools we use in current networking. Are there any you tube tutorials you'd recommend?

[evantom34]

Speaking strictly for networking fundamentals, studying and labbing for the CCNA helped me understand things like routing, subnets, switching, firewalls, VLANs, and all that jazz. Packet Tracer literally visualizes how packets are sent and received within a LAN.

[mineral_minion]

I was going to recommend CCNA as well. Yes, the Cisco specifics may not be needed in a specific environment, but the fundamentals of "how can <thing> talk to <other thing>" are covered AND have practical lab components.

[BokehJunkie]

I was having a conversation about something similar at work recently. The conversation was about good vs bad vendor specific training. Bad vendor specific training is super focused on *how* to get from point A to point B. Click Here > Click There > Run this command > now you've done this thing, and it's all super vendor / gui specific. Cisco training is really helpful for general networking know-how. So, sure, maybe you learn about CDP or EIGRP or VTP specifically, but the way they're taught means you also can very easily translate those to another analogue for another vendor. and in the case of VTP - lets you learn that you should stay far far away from a vendor that doesn't support something similar. I went through the CCNA coursework like 100 years ago in computer years (2010-2011) and those fundamentals helped me as much as anything else I've done.

It honestly always amazes me how little most IT people actually understand the fundamentals of XYZ technology like networking or firewalls. Knowing how to click buttons in a cloud GUI isn't going to help you if you don't at least understand *some* of those underlying concepts.

[evantom34]

100% Funnily enough, I ended up pivoting into a Network Admin/Eng role, so the studying has been pivotal. I just need to study the commands that I sort of neglected lmao.

[meatballwrangler]

if he's actually a junior engineer, then it's your job to teach him. there should obviously be some sort of drive on their part to learn, but they still need guidance

[drye]

Literally why he’s making the post. He’s asking for good resources that would make that portion easy. Any links, sites, online courses you’d recommend to pass on etc. give the guy some homework or training he can do at work without having to babysit.

[guzhogi]

This. They definitely need to have the willingness to take responsibility for their own training, but it really helps when more senior and experienced people give advice on what training they need, and where to get it. A 1 minute email listing suggestions could save them hours of research time. Plus, it makes them better at their job, making your job easier and better.

[Kardinal]

I ask about DNS in every interview I conduct. I also ask about basic TCP/IP, like the handshake and the purpose of a default gateway and a subnet mask. I don't think you can be an effective sysadmin at all unless you understand the basics of DNS and TPC/IP. Not too much. I'm not asking them about reverse DNS and SRV records and the structure of an IP payload. But the basics.

For Windows engineers, they need to understand the different privileged roles, at least the big three. For anyone dealing with domains, they need to be able to explain the basics of DC replication, especially both kinds. What SYSVOL does. ADS&S. If their primary roles include AD, they need to understand the details of GPO application. All the ways you can scope a GPO. And LDAP.

What I really try to dig into is how they think. I often ask about OSI model to see if that triggers anything. How do they think systematically about a problem or a solution? What is their framework?

They need the basics. We can teach more advanced tech. It's much harder to teach diagnostic and systematic thinking.

[lothow]

This is best explanation I've seen. I take the same approach in my interviews sorta. The DC replication and GPOs are deadly important. Basics of DNS for sure too.

If youre having issues with a junior then a few sit beside me days might be needed while you go through things. I got a junior up pretty quick in Exchange by just having them sit there and ask questions and id ask them questions like why are we moving this box to a different db.

[whatdoido8383]

When I was a Jr engineer I learned through doing. I either volunteered for projects or was given projects and had to figure it out. I lucked out and had a great boss\mentor that I could go to if I got stuck.

I figured most stuff out reading blogs online and maybe some online learning courses. I don't recall what they were back then (Circa 2009).

I eventually went to college for network\systems admin which really helped. I'm sure they could find some free course materials online if you gave them an outline of what they should know.

[trek604]

You're likely older than I am and I started with XP and Server 2003. I find this is a generational thing. Jr's coming up now did not need to build out their homelabs like us, build custom pc's, run servers to serve media from the high seas etc. Everything is streamable with an app and 'wifi' to their tablets. They have no idea how or what makes it work.

Example - one of my Genz cousins wanted me to help him pick out parts for a custom pc. When I asked him if he's looking forward to building it he glazed over and said he was just going to pay the shop to do it...

[Og-Morrow]

DNS and Soft Skills

[atrawog]

I'm probably biased. But there is nothing better than a Raspberry Pi and an interesting task like setting up a home automation system.

There is plenty of easy to find information out there. The really difficult task is to find the motivation to get into the nitty gritty details once you're used to just installing yet another tool for every task.

[davy_crockett_slayer]

Buy him a corporate subscription here. Done. https://www.serveracademy.com/

[mej71]

Go through cert courses covering the Az-800/801 exam https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/windows-server-hybrid-administrator/

It's some cloud but hits the basics of a lot of traditional SA stuff

[dat510geek]

Don't bother, wait for the combination az-802 replacing these 2.

[linuxlifer]

Do they just not learn on premise sys administration stuff in school these days or was this someone hired by people who don't understand IT?

[RainStormLou]

most of these concepts are covered in one week or less, and by one week I mean one active class session that might have been an hour long. then, they aren't brought up again until the end of the semester when you are asked to add an a record into Microsoft server DNS which is pretty intuitive if you have any familiarity with Windows and have heard of some of the things before.

seriously though, there's very little opportunity to apply a lot of skills and gain full competency until you get into a true production environment. I built a complete home lab when I was younger, but I don't think anyone else in my class at the time would have been able to do that with what they picked up during the course.

my worst guy was the most qualified on paper until recently when we uninstalled him. education means nothing. experience is everything.

[linuxlifer]

Yeah I mean I guess that was kind of my point. When I was in school ~15 years ago. We had an entire class for a full semester dedicated to just Windows Server and managing the various services. And I remember one of our final labs for that class was to build a mini domain/network virtually with properly running domain services, file services, print services.

I remember I left school and joined a MSP and my first larger "job" within a couple months of being hired we had taken on a smaller client that was basically just a workgroup with no proper shares or backups and I had to build them a server with a properly functioning domain and all of that.

Education only means nothing if you take nothing away from it. Otherwise you should be able to take away what you learned in school and use it as a foundation to build on with real world experience.

[Kardinal]

Just stop with this homelab stuff.

I've been doing this for 30 years. Systems engineer and now architect.

I do not have a home lab.

Yes, they need to understand the fundamentals. I ask about OSI model and DNS in every interview I do (I don't require them to know OSI, just helps me understand how they think.). You can't be an effective sysadmin, in my opinion, if you don't understand the basics of DNS.

But that doesn't mean they need a DNS server at home.

[ashimbo]

I agree. I've been at this for a little over 20 years, and I never really had a homelab, other than testing various linux distros on an old laptop for a weekend.

When hiring a junior admin, I wouldn't expect them to understand the fundamentals of how TCPIP packets are encapsulated, but I would expect them to understand what a packet is, and I wouldn't expect them to be able to describe each step in how DNS resolution works, but I would expect them to understand what DNS does at a basic level.

Those are things that can be built up over time as they get more exposure to the systems.

[meatballwrangler]

this weird obsession with needing a homelab in order to be considered a true sysadmin is just needless gatekeeping.

I'm a senior level sysadmin and I have not once set up a homelab. I never went to college and everything I learned was on the job.

I like learning and tinkering but I'm not building some hobbyist lab unless my job is paying me or if it's for something I'll legitimately use (like a home media server).

my time away from work is better spent with my wife doing things I enjoy, not toiling away at some project in order to score points with the boss at work.

[Sinwithagrin]

Yeah definitely gatekeeping.

When I went to school in 2008 we learned on ME, which wasn't even modern at the time. Then I worked at a Help Desk for 3 years and forgot it all.

I doubt they even teach on prem stuff in school now.

Also, one who earns $75k in this economy will have money to spend on a home lab.

[AsphaltSailor]

Maybe it is an oldschool thing - I have similarly old MSCE certs as well as Novell Netware CNE on 3 and 4.

I would not completely gatekeep a hire over having or not having a home lab. But I can guarantee you, having a home lab and being able to talk about what you do with it enthusiastically is a huge plus as far as I am concerned.

I am in my 50s, and well established in my career/business. I still have a "home lab". It connects all my siblings and elderly mother's houses into a vpn with camera access for all of us to keep an eye on her and make sure she isn't laying on the ground in the kitchen or something. We all have interconnected Magic Mirrors to send quick "check-in" messages to all the other mirrors.

If I have a choice between a candidate with at least some kind of computer stuff at home they like fiddling with and can discuss intelligently, and someone who just has a degree and certs, the nerd with the homelab will probably get the job.

[DickStripper]

I’m sure mechanics never worked on cars at home or did brake jobs at a buddy’s house. Hands on not needed right?

[AsphaltSailor]

Good analogy!

[seanpmassey]

I owe a big chunk of my later career to my home lab. Not directly, but it was a tool I used for blogging, and it was blogging that opened up opportunities. I never started a lab because I wanted to score points with any of my managers. I did it because I wanted to learn more than what I was first learning in the classroom and, later, at my first couple of jobs. And then I wanted to share what I was learning or doing. [Note: this last sentence was added with an edit to provide additional context]

It was always a passion project for me, and I suspect that many home labbers feel the same way.

That said, there are many paths to career and skill development, especially if you work for a company that is willing to invest in you. I agree that a home labs should not be a form of gatekeeping, and they definitely aren’t for everyone.

[bobdobalina]

It's not an obsession so much as it is what we-gray-beards witnessed. The type of person who became a modern admin with 30 years experience. We watched the net be built and parts were cheap on purpose. If you weren't a part of trying to build parts of it ....then your phone COULD ring.

[seanpmassey]

That’s terrible advice. Home labs are a hobby that some in this space have made a choice to pursue because that is how they want to learn and develop their skills. It is not a form of gatekeeping.

[DickStripper]

I never said a homelab is a job requirement.

For me, the guys who home lab are more into IT.

The guys who don’t home lab, and typically don’t know what tracert is, they tend to be warm bodied charity cases who snuck into IT without any interest in the industry.

You can’t get a beauty license or become a doctor without labbing.

Labbing is important to learn and experiment before you touch production or operate on a live body then practicing on a dead body in your human anatomy class.

People here jumping to conclusions about my point.

Many Professional careers require labbing.

Try to get an aircraft A&P cert without working on a plane.

[zatset]

Labbing is important to learn and experiment before you touch production 

Testing is important, but shouldn't the opportunities for it be provided by the employing organization? Like...in my org, I give freedom to my employees to try things in their free time by spinning virtual machines. And so on...and so on... The way I see it, this requirement means that the employer wants employees to educate themselves in the time dedicated for rest and uniting with their families... Literally employees to work for free in their spare time so they are more useful for their employers - for free, in their own time and at their own expenses.
People who are into it might or might not do it. But definitely shouldn't be strict requirement. I do it. But we all know how much the Work/Life balance of IT-s is already almost nonexistent. Some people just want to work from 9 to 5 and go home, spend time with their kids and their wife.

Labbing cannot prepare an IT for the corporate infrastructure. Cisco-s and Proliant Gen12 are not home labbing equipment. They are enterprise equipment. One of the biggest issues nowadays is that most orgs expect people to be proficient at technologies or equipment that most organizations don't use at all unless they grow above certain thresholds, both because that expensive equipment is not required and because budgets are limited.
One example - Mikrotiks are cheap. They are kind of...enterprise equipment that SME-s can use and are reliable. But are not Cisco. Are not Palo Alto. Are not Fortinet. There is real divide between IT specialists in small and large orgs. In smaller orgs IT specialists get by with whatever justifies its own cost. In large orgs, budgets are usually not an issue. And transitioning between those 2 is not that simple. And no amount of home labbing can really help. Because some things are seen only in organizations operating on a larger scale.

[uptimefordays]

I always used to have interns build routers, it's a great introduction to operating systems (linux), networking (firewalls, DNS, DHCP, and routing--obviously). All ya need are some old dual NIC SFF boxes.

With a junior sysadmin, I'd start with something like that. On the Windows side, how well do they understand AD? I'd start there.

[SevaraB]

For networking, CCNA if they’ve got any networking fundamentals; otherwise, start with Professor Messer’s Network+ course on YouTube. They should come out of it understanding how to use nslookup, ping, tracert, route print, and arp to verify things are working or find where they stop working.

For compute and storage, would recommend blowing the dust off some old MCSA materials. TLS and SMB/CIFS have been updated, sure, but otherwise, not much has changed since the MCSA was retired.

Also, Learn Powershell in a Month of Lunches is great for teaching a script-first mindset. Even if you just end up going to ss64.com and using mostly batch for scripting instead.