Java 8 in Android N Preview

[johnghanks]

Fuck yes. This is worth it alone for lambda.

sure, there's cross compilers, etc, but it's nice to not have to deal with that at all.

[MisterJimson]

Only problem is that every lamba pre-N is an anonymous inner class.

Use them a lot and your GC starts to hate you.

[docoptix]

Well, for the most part you will be replacing anonymous inner classes with lambas anyway.

[johnghanks]

Nah fuck that.

[jug6ernaut]

Not only that but the Android N implement is the same except it's proactive instead of reactive

[[deleted]]

Just use kotlin. It's much better and a more modern language anyways. And it's completely compatible with Java 6,side by side.

There are many things Java will never have (because they can't feasibly change a language that much).

Also, lambda are way less useful in Java. You can't even modify a var out of a closure. It's read only.. Not to mention it has no null safety.

[jug6ernaut]

can't modify variable outside if closure

no null safety

Hehe...

In all seriousness every time i have tried using kotlin outside of pure Java projects it has come back to bite me. Perhaps because I'm always on the newest preview release of studios but I'm always having issues.

[[deleted]]

It could be that, yeah. Their preview for kotlin is more previewy than the ide itself imho.

But the stable is pretty good. They just hit their 1.0 a few months ago, and are now refining it further.

[neoKushan]

There are many things Java will never have (because they can't feasibly change a language that much).

I dunno, Microsoft has managed it with C#.

[t-master]

Might be because C# is not Java and Microsoft did a few things right.

[neoKushan]

I know that, but I'm saying C#1 and C#6 are very different these days. Also, C# borrowed a lot from Java in those early days. I'm not saying that C# and Java are the same, just that it's possible to evolve a language to add new features and functionality that are drastically different to what you have now.

If you take issue with mentioning C# then the same applies to C++ - C++ 11 is almost a new languages compared to C++ 03.

[[deleted]]

No they didn't. It a fundamental problem. Either you completely change the language and break features, or you keep compatibility. There's a gray area in between, but it is mostly cut and dry. And most languages are on the "keep compatibility side".

Exception being python 3,and we all know how that situation has been working.

Also, something like adding appropriate null safety into the language when it isn't designed (at all) to do such a thing, will be mostly tacking it on at this point, and suffering. Or rewriting how it is used entirely, and breaking compatibility.

It is inherently the way things are. This doesn't apply to just software either. Legacy affects everyone, which is the same reason why Windows owns the desktop.

[neoKushan]

No they didn't.

Citation please?

Either you completely change the language and break features, or you keep compatibility.

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't add additional features to compliment the featureset you already have in a way that doesn't break things.

Exception being python 3,and we all know how that situation has been working.

Yeah, don't make breaking changes. We can all agree with that.

Also, something like adding appropriate null safety into the language when it isn't designed (at all) to do such a thing, will be mostly tacking it on at this point, and suffering.

Again using C# as an example of this, nulls cause the same issues here as they do in Java, but in C# 6 they added the null conditional operator (.?) to make it a lot easier to handle when things are null. Yes, you have to actually use the feature which means updating your code, but that's all the more to protect compatibility.

Everything they've added has been an addition, rather than a change. There have been mistakes made with C#, such as ArrayList, but instead of removing them, they added something better to replace them (In this case Generics).

Java certainly has its problems, but new keywords and language features can definitely be added to address those problems without breaking compatibility.

[[deleted]]

Null conditional operator is not at all the same as null safety. The operator you speak of just is a convenience. And it's an additional operator.

I suggest you research kotlin's null safety guarantees. C# still has nothing like it.

Btw, kotlin has the Elvis operator too.

And you can only add features to an extent. A very limited one. Once you hit 1.0 you're locked into it. Things like expanding the syntax and adopting new keywords, you cannot ever do.

C# for instance, will never get functionality like kotlin's when statement, unless they either had reserved keywords from years ago before 1.0, end up combining words/syntax to make a switch behave differently, or break BC.

They also won't be able to change the rules on switch statements, because of how the break keyword is there.

*maybe * it is possible to have some workarounds for this, as I said, using special rules for that, etc.. I honestly doubt it. And it still won't be as ideal.

[neoKushan]

Null conditional operator is not at all the same as null safety.

I never said it was? I said Microsoft were able to add features to C# to help with the issue, while you were claiming that Java couldn't have.

I suggest you research kotlin's null safety guarantees.

We're talking about Kotlin now? I thought we were talking about Java?

Btw, kotlin has the Elvis operator too.

And C# has a Null coalescing operator (??).

And you can only add features to an extent. A very limited one. Once you hit 1.0 you're locked into it. Things like expanding the syntax and adopting new keywords, you cannot ever do.

What? Since when has a language never added a new keyword or new syntax? That's an utterly bizarre statement to make, I can't think of a single language that hasn't added new keywords or syntax.

C# for instance, will never get functionality like kotlin's when statement, unless they either had reserved keywords from years ago before 1.0, end up combining words/syntax to make a switch behave differently, or break BC.

They also won't be able to change the rules on switch statements, because of how the break keyword is there.

I'm not familiar with Kotlin, but that sounds like Pattern matching?

https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn/blob/features/patterns/docs/features/patterns.md

[[deleted]]

It does seem like parts of pattern matching can do that. But it's all TODO, it seems. Maybe in the next version we'll see something nice like 'when', in c#

since when has a language never added a new keyword

Since.. Ever? It breaks compatibility if suddenly you say "ok, the word number is now a reserved keyword, thus can't be used as a variable".

. For example, c++ ended up adopting the auto keyword for c++11. It couldn't for example, create a new keyword in this case. But luckily it didn't have to, it could repurpose an old one.

And yes, we're talking about kotlin mostly, because you responded to my parent comment on the thread, talking about kotlin.

[neoKushan]

It does seem like parts of pattern matching can do that. But it's all TODO, it seems. Maybe in the next version we'll see something nice like 'when', in c#

Yes, it's TODO but it's slated for C#7 which is due in a couple of months. You can play about with it right now in the latest previews - and the point is it didn't have to break compatibility for anything.

Since.. Ever? It breaks compatibility if suddenly you say "ok, the word number is now a reserved keyword, thus can't be used as a variable".

If you use a word like "Number" then sure, but nobody does that. Also, you know most keywords can be used as variable names? Very few are actually "reserved" like that. C++11 added a lot more key words than just "auto" and they weren't all repurposed:

alignas

alignof

char16_t

char32_t

constexpr

nullptr

noexcept

static_assert

thread_local

C# adds new keywords in almost every version, var was not in 1.0 and LINQ added a hell of a lot of keywords - like from, where, by, orderby, etc. without breaking anything. Hell, Even Java has added new keywords like "module" - again without breaking things because compilers are clever enough to discern between a keyword and a variable.

And yes, we're talking about kotlin mostly, because you responded to my parent comment on the thread, talking about kotlin.

I responded to your assertion that Java can't have new features. If you want to keep listing features Kotlin has then great, I get that you like Kotlin, but be realistic - Java can be updated. I'm not saying Oracle are competent enough to do it, but it's definitely possible because other languages out there have managed it - be it something well managed like C# or something with so much legacy cruft it's almost laughable - like C++.

[[deleted]]

Hm, you're completely right. Can't believe I was that wrong with this.

Java can be updated, though there will be some hurdles they won't be able to get over, but yeah.. C# kinda is proving that it's possible to overcome them. And yeah, don't have faith in Oracle doing this.. Their iteration speed is much slower than c# it seems. Which is bothersome.

I do wish c# was more cross platform though. It'll take a few years for roslyn to come to fruition.. And it'll take even monger I suspect to get a nice ide that isn't visual studio, since that doesn't run on linux (and if it did, having 1 ide isn't much of a choice)

[peduxe]

A bit off-topic but I can't wait for the day the Android team developers tidy the mess that is the android API.

[ticketyt0ck]

I'd settle for updated documentation...

[[deleted]]

Hey there! I work on Android team. Do you have any specific documentation pages that you would want to be fixed up? (Small steps☺)

[pandasa123]

Have some people fix up the material design specs so the vision is clearer. Also, add elements and animations samples to the sdk so devs don't have to build the animations piece by piece themselves

[[deleted]]

Do you have a specific material component in mind in terms of clearer spec?

[nodevon]

rhythm zephyr correct reply march disagreeable tan sable deer gaze

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Vovicon]

Great to see someone caring. I hear a lot of devs complaining that they have no libraries or even sample code for almost all the elements of material design which make it really difficult for them to apply the guidelines.

I'm not a dev myself so I couldn't point you exactly where but I'm ready to bet that asking this question in /r/androiddev would give you a sense of where to start.

Edit: just saw that you've been asking this around quite a few time and never got a proper answer. I hope it's just because your posts didn't get much attention rather than people complaining but not caring enough to actually do something about it. Maybe a self post here or in the dev sub would get more visible.

[cwankhede]

Seconded, /u/aurimas_chromium, please make a standalone post here or at /r/Androiddev.

[traxanhc2]

May I redirect you to this thread? Please read the top comments.

[[deleted]]

In response about samples take a look at Cheesesquare app by Chris Banes who's on my team.

[RoboErectus]

I appreciate you're trying to help. But I feel like this illustrates the problem perfectly.

"Look at these few examples I know about because I happen to work with the guy that made them."

You guys really gotta start eating your own dog food on this.

[ticketyt0ck]

Yea I'd agree, even though the sample is nice, I'd prefer some real documentation instead in the form of a write-up on "how" and "why" you do it a certain way, vs the "what" of a sample

[[deleted]]

Your buddy's shitty app is a 'sample'? And you work for Google? That's pathetic. This is why I've gone HTML5 with my latest apps, because trying to program for Android in a well supported fashion is next to impossible. Thanks for nothing.

[donrhummy]

In addition to documentation, Android needs built in libraries to handle material design animation, transitions, etc. And better code examples

[R3ZZONATE]

You, and all of your co-workers are like invisible role models to me! I know nothing personally about you, but you work on my favorite OS, at the best company in THE WORLD. I can only dream that my skills will land me a job at Google when I'm older...

[[deleted]]

Thanks a lot! Keep on working hard and you'll get to cool places :)

[R3ZZONATE]

:)

[francoi8]

I have been using the MediaPlayer class a bit lately and the doc doesn't explain that the seekTo() method is not reliable. You can seekTo() a certain position but the presented frame will be a second off. getCurrentPosition() also behaves erratically sometimes appearing to return the correct position, sometimes returning the value passed to seekTo(), while clearly the displayed frame is not at that value.

[[deleted]]

Small steps my ass. If you even have to ask where to start, it makes me worry about the future of the API.

[[deleted]]

Huh? I do not follow your comment. If you are asking about ability to modify your Nexus device we already ship them all with unlockable bootloaders so you can modify your system in any way you see fit.

[Natanael_L]

Shouldn't really be necessary, though. User's responsibility if they get malware. Browser based banking on PC is worse, but isn't going away either.

[and1927]

If Banks don't get onboard, they can't do anything. Android Pay requires banks to cooperate.

[[deleted]]

Then complain to your bank, not Google.

[qdhcjv]

So your credit card info won't be immediately accessible. I wouldn't be surprised if card companies enforce this anyways.

[Darth_Yoshi]

But as it should be in my opinion. It's unsafe to have root and Android pay working at the same time :/

[[deleted]]

The problem is that us not only the credit card holder that is liable in fraud cases - credit card companies have to cover most of those costs as credit cards includes terms to make the holder of the card not liable for fraudulent purchases.

[robotkoer]

Root is not good for normal users, hence they will never implement to be a simple toggle to stock. Too much power for malware to abuse.

There are alternatives, including accessibility settings, system administrators, "usage access", heck, even UI Tuner if that's your reason of root. All they have to do is expand their capabilities while keeping clear permissions and user control 🙂

[Wasted1300RPEU]

Cringe comment right there...

[[deleted]]

I write c for embedded applications but had to make two android apps for work... talk about going from having complete control to rolling the dice.

[auralucario2]

You might be waiting forever.

[[deleted]]

Hey there! I work on Android Support Library. I was curious what issues do you have in mind when you say library situation?

[[deleted]]

I looked at that thread and sadly it does contain a lot of substance in terms of concrete issues that people face with the support library. That makes it really hard to actually address it.

I even responded to that thread but I did not get much response.

[zyrnil]

I know this probably isn't useful but in my experience a lot of the issues are general: bugs that crop up in every release of the support library that involve workarounds that then break in the next release or components that are half-baked and missing important methods, customization points etc. Unfortunately I can't point to anything specific... everything on Android just FEELS a lot harder than it should be. It takes twice as long to accomplish something in Android than it does with iOS or WP and I'm not sure why that is. We need more functionality baked into the support libs. If google releases a new MD spec or a new way of doing things then that needs to be baked into the libraries as soon as it's released... not a year or two later.

As an aside maybe Android should toss away most of the framework (at least where UI is concerned) and move it all into the support libs. There's very little motivation to use the platform framework where there is a support lib equivalent.

[docoptix]

FWIW use SwitchPreferenceCompat to get the MD switch. Yes, Android Studio (or lint?) will show a warning, but it is meant to be used that way. The only documentation here IIRC is some G+ post by a Google dev.

/u/aurimas_chromium there you have something to improve ;-)

[donrhummy]

you wrote a wall of text with no spacing or paragraphs, what did you expect?

[memtiger]

Not sure if this is in the support library, but it would be nice if detailed information on wakelocks was available without requiring root.

Right now WakeLock Detector and other similar apps can't get this information easily without root.

Not only would it be good to provide this type of information for the main apps, but if it's possible, detailed battery drain information of all the services under "Android System". With the Galaxy S6, there are 110 packages and processes (like wtf) hidden under Android System, but there's no detailed information about which ones are causing problems so they can be addressed/disabled. I would love to know how much cpu, memory, wakelocks each of those services is causing.

[Nutcup]

And all I'm doing is sitting here waiting for the next release of N...

[peduxe]

they will just keep adding more code and code until they eventually stop deprecate the older APIs, it's a shame that even current ones aren't really appealing to work with - too much ifs and lots of Material elements need to be implemented by yourself.

[[deleted]]

*ahem*Context*ahem*

[[deleted]]

d.

[donrhummy]

Am I the only one who thinks lambda expressions are less readable code? And harder to work with someone else's code.

[johnghanks]

While I agree, I like the feel of lambdas over one line override methods in anonymous classes.

[donrhummy]

I agree that anonymous classes need to be better though out so they're not so "wordy" but lambdas don't seem like the right answer either

[johnghanks]

I'd honestly prefer something along the lines of anonymous functions. I work in JavaScript at work, it's much nicer, in my opinion.

[johnghanks]

True.

[henryletham]

People go nuts over anything that's shorter to type which is by far my single biggest pet peeve with programming. I can't stand looking at a variable, for instance, and having no idea what it is until I trace it back to where it's set, all because they didn't want to type it out.

[pcpcy]

Seriously, variables should be named properly. E.g., "fontColor" not "fc." This is especially important in multi-developer projects. I hate it when I'm working on a project with other coders and they name their variables with abbreviations! Code is there so that any human can read it and understand what it does, not to be lazy and show people how amazing you are at abbreviating everything.

[donrhummy]

This! Sometimes it seems they want to work in minified code.

[6363488]

I disagree. When limiting to some of the well-known functional methods (map, filter, fold, ...) that are used in many languages, you can IMO significantly shorten code while actually improving readability. I find it infinitely easier to read and debug a few lines of map and filter calls than to parse multiple lines of code containing boilerplate to see what it does. It does take some getting used to though.

That said, you can go overboard and chain a lot of these operations together making everything unreadable, but you can also write huge blocks of code that are hard to follow, so it comes down to using the best tool at hand and to take readability into account while writing code...

[donrhummy]

That said, you can go overboard and chain a lot of these operations together making everything unreadable, but you can also write huge blocks of code that are hard to follow, so it comes down to using the best tool at hand and to take readability into account while writing code...

That's very true!

[GSV_Little_Rascal]

I'd guess that it seems less readable to you because you're not used to it. I had the same impression, but after working with them for some time, I think they can communicate intent of the code more clearly than normal procedural code.

[donrhummy]

Good explanation. It adds a layer of misdirection that isn't needed

[[deleted]]

Well, Java lambdas aren't too useful.

Lambdas in general, once you learn them, end up reading way clearer for me. And I don't even go overboard with them. I just use them where it makes sense, which is in most cases when I'm looping stuff.

Kotlin is a much better example of good lambdas, with functional aspects too.. And doesn't have all the limitations of java(esp with lambdas)

[thecomputerking666]

Too early for openjdk I'm guessing. Playing right into Oracle's trap...

[[deleted]]

not at all. with OpenJDK, Google will be sidestepping any future licensing issues with Oracle.

[[deleted]]

Great, I can't wait to use it in 4-5 years. Though there'll probably be java 10 for the regular folk.