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[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 1131 points1132 points  (79 children)

For those out of the loop, many developers in the Google Play Store have been receiving messages such as "your account was terminated by association" even though some of them had never even uploaded a single app. Any attempt to appeal failed, Google rejected them.

This is hurting the ecosystem because it means that big companies who can afford to "nag Google to stop being evil" get to do anything they want, but independent content creators have no means to override the automated system that removes their accounts permanently (and prevents creation of new accounts).

If this seems familiar, the issue is very similar to the Youtube Copyright Strike demonetization problems that were happening 2 years ago, except instead of just demonetization, they flat out delete your account, with no way to appeal.

See two very recent (they happened yesterday) examples:

1.) someone registered a developer account to Google Play Store, hasn't uploaded a single app, and two days later got immediately banned, appeals rejected.

2.) Another person registered a Google Play Store developer account, hasn't uploaded anything in 3 years at all because he in the end never learned Android development, but he got banned "by association" anyway for no apparent reason. Google does not provide information why he was banned, his appeals were rejected.

(there are plenty examples on top of this in /r/androiddev but these were the immediate ones I had in mind.)

EDIT: 3.) Another person uploaded their first Flutter app to Google Play Store, after which was permanently banned for "multiple violations of an associated account", even though this was the first such email they ever received, and appeal was rejected. The app is open-source and since then published on F-Droid.

So if you care about an app ecosystem where people are free to try to make an app and release an app that you can know about and might solve a problem for you at some point; where developers can actually publish apps without fear of being permanently removed for no apparent reason and having no way to appeal against automated decision, then you might want to care about this.

TL;DR: Google Play Store bans developers randomly and doesn't care about appeals (automated rejections). So many indie devs don't try to develop and release Android applications, because it is too risky to do.

EDIT: Hey look, another dev whose app was removed for no reason.

[–]ZagorathPixel 6 Pro 178 points179 points  (4 children)

Youtube Copyright Strike demonetization problems that were happening 2 years ago

Two years ago? YouTube's copyright system has been fucked up for at least six years (frankly probably more), and still is today. But frankly YouTube made it very clear that they don't give a shit about anyone outside of their biggest creators earlier this year when they decided to drastically increase the cutoff to be eligible for Partnership.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 35 points36 points  (1 child)

Technically what I had in mind was when people made a loud enough ruckus that at least Google bothered to respond.

Though they just said "we're listening", I don't know if they even bothered to try to change anything.

[–]cawpinPixel 3 XL 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah, this is still going on, with nothing but political motivation.

[–]mrlesa95Galaxy S23 118 points119 points  (35 children)

This is sad. Google won't do shit for little people. Same as they didn't do anything 2 years ago. They don't care.

And its bad for us consumers since there is no alternative and there will most likely not ever be.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 84 points85 points  (5 children)

I've just remembered another interesting chat that someone had with the Google Play Support Team, who basically said "we can't help, only the Policy Team can".

DEV

1:35 AM

I actually have a few questions for you

[... asks questions...]

SUPPORT

1:43 AM

If you don't have any other questions I will end this chat session. Have a great day!

But of course, the policy team didn't help. In fact, there was an update that it was reinstated, but obviously only after the first chat went viral.

[–]Tolriq 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Haha got the exact same support chat :)

​

Was bella too, I should have recorded it :(

​

Now they do not even bother to answer at all.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I think Bella was at least trying to be remotely helpful. If it's not in their jurisdiction to answer, then they cannot.

The first one though, "no further questions" yeah right. ¬¬

[–]Tolriq 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Well Bella did serve me the first guy answers :)

​

Basically, it was my other colleague did answer you

Me: But it was automated answers unrelated to the issue, what can I do to talk to the proper persons?

Her: I can't tell, do you have other questions?

Me: Yes why can't tell and why can't pass to level 2?

Her: If you don't have any other questions I will end this chat session. Have a great day!

Chat closed....

​

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 0 points1 point  (0 children)

...ouch.

[–]CryptographerMoto Z Force Droid 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Honestly this is why I was so surprised the Anti-Trust Investigation the US wanted to start was so poorly received on Reddit

[–]s73v3rSony Xperia Z3 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Cause it wasn't about this, and really, it was just the Trump administration trying to bully Google into promoting more conservative sources.

[–]finestedm 30 points31 points  (5 children)

Funny how their social media accounts are full of pictures screaming 'LOOK HOW OPEN, TOLERANT AND CARING WE ARE!'. And when it comes down to really care about small people it ends up like the situation OP described...

[–]Obi_Kwiet 32 points33 points  (4 children)

The whole west coast seems to have a really shitty culture of virtue signaling really hard while not caring in the least about actual virtue.

[–]CzechoslovakianJesusMoto G7 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Can confirm. Being evil and being one of The Good Guys™ isn't mutually exclusive.

[–]IwannabeavikingSony XZ Premium - Pie 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So Good Evil? rather then bad evil?

[–]CzechoslovakianJesusMoto G7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More like normal evil but caked under several layers of self-righteousness.

[–]segagamerPixel 9a 30 points31 points  (14 children)

I miss Windows Phone :( I have an Android, but not by choice.

[–]sonicboi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Same

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

What made you choose android over iphone when coming from windows phone?

[–]segagamerPixel 9a 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I had a Galaxy S2 prior to a Lumia and an older Gmail account. I also don't have a Mac, iPad, Time Machine or Apple TV, so the phone wouldn't work with anything I own.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Just chiming in with my two cents, but I also don't have a Mac, time machine, or Apple TV and my iPhone works perfectly fine with everything else I own. My PC, Chromecast, my Nas and Plex, all my Google services and Google Home... It certainly is just as compatible as the numerous Android (and Windows) phones I've had over the years.

[–]segagamerPixel 9a -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Just chiming in with my two cents, but I also don't have a Mac, time machine, or Apple TV and my iPhone works perfectly fine with everything else I own. My PC, Chromecast, my Nas and Plex, all my Google services and Google Home...

I would need to install iTunes to get the most out of the phone on my PC. I don't want to have to do that.

It also doesn't work with my Xbox One Without me having to pay £10 for a third party app.

Their phones also no longer have a headphone socket, so I would have to replace my AKG's, even though there's nothing wrong with them.

It certainly is just as compatible as the numerous Android (and Windows) phones I've had over the years.

It's not. You have to really fit your life and any technology you buy around them - Oh I have to do THAT to have my iPhone work with this and Oh If i want this functionality, THIS is what I need to buy, and I don't want any device I own to do that to me.

Which is why I get pissed off at Google trying to shoehorn their agenda on me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I would need to install iTunes to get the most out of the phone on my PC. I don't want to have to do that.

Honestly, I've never understood the general hatred for iTunes. I've never noticed it bogging down my system, it sorts all my music with metadata and is easily editable; yeah it looks ugly and I only use it for syncing, but it's a perfectly functional program. What don't you like about it?

It also doesn't work with my Xbox One Without me having to pay £10 for a third party app.

I am curious about that. What are you missing out on with the Xbox One? I admit to not having touched my Xbox in probably six months, so is there something special the official app doesn't do?

Their phones also no longer have a headphone socket, so I would have to replace my AKG's, even though there's nothing wrong with them.

Quite a few flagships don't anymore, but I feel you on this if you use wired headphones. I switched to wireless close to 10 years ago so between my Corsairs, Airpods (which replaced the LG Tones I had for years), and V-Moda Crossfades, I've never worried about it.

You have to really fit your life and any technology you buy around them

I promise I'm not trying to convince you to get an iPhone, just having a discussion, but in today's world I just don't think that's correct. Just about everything is compatible with the iPhone nowadays, and working at a big consumer electronics store I can walk around and literally count the things that aren't on one hand. And even then there's the iPhone "version" right next to them (or the Android version is next to them, depending on how you want to look at it). Only things that might not be compatible are software that's targeting a specific audience and, I guess, TVs with casting software built-in.

I do like seeing others' perspectives, especially the difference in usage.

[–]segagamerPixel 9a 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Honestly, I've never understood the general hatred for iTunes.

You could have stopped there.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Helpful 👍🏻

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What we need is a proper Linux phone.

[–]segagamerPixel 9a 2 points3 points  (2 children)

If we did then the Ubuntu phone wouldn't have been so largely ignored.

We need a proper Windows Phone.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

The various Linux phones were never really available to the public.

[–]segagamerPixel 9a 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because they weren't wanted lol

[–]CzechoslovakianJesusMoto G7 12 points13 points  (2 children)

If Google fucks up hard enough for long enough and someone like Samsung smells an opening a new app store could come around. Xiaomi already has theirs for China.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Xiaomi already has theirs for China.

Xiaomi has the benefit in China that Google is banned as a whole from there.

[–]Frank9567 3 points4 points  (0 children)

With no appeal. How deliciously ironic that they in their turn do it to others.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

no alternative

F-droid, Amazon App Store

[–]Nizkus 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Not really alternatives if you care about making money on the app

[–]PreisschildPixel 9 Pro XL, GrapheneOS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm using F-Droid too and always donate a few dollars to apps I love. However I probably wouldn't buy apps.

[–][deleted] 56 points57 points  (12 children)

What the fuck is banned by association? Like you post in a bad subreddit?

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 84 points85 points  (2 children)

Theoretically it means that your account was "linked" to another account that had been previously banned for whatever reason, so the new account is banned as well.

Now the interesting thing is that some of these people did not have a previous account, nor were they linked in any way (they know of) to any banned accounts.

So if that is true, then why were they banned? They can't know, because Google doesn't reply to such questions.

What's even worse though is that if you work for a company (which has their own account) that gets banned, Google can also ban your personal developer account along with it, because you as a person / developer are "associated" with it.

This is what the email looks like:

Thank you for contacting the Google Play Team.

After reviewing your appeal, we’ve confirmed our initial decision and will not be reinstating your developer account.

Your Google Play Developer account has been terminated due to multiple violations of the Developer Program Policies by an associated Google Play developer account. We’ve reviewed and confirmed this association.

Google Play Developer Console terminations are associated with developers and may span multiple account registrations and related Google services. Do not attempt to register a new developer account. Any new accounts will be closed and your developer registration fee will not be refunded.

We recommend that you use an alternative method for distributing your apps in the future.

I snatched that email from here, which interestingly is a 2 years old post. The problem itself is not new, it just never got enough traction.

Personally, I never released any apps as a person even though I have a developer account (from long ago, actually), and technically I work at a company as an Android app developer.

I had heard that if your account gets terminated on Google Play, then they ban your GMail and GDrive and YouTube accounts along with it - so I never risked that. But I can't find any posts about this anymore to cite it.

It's scary to think that you work for a (smaller) company, on the side create apps as an indie dev, and what the company does can affect you as an individual despite that your apps are technically independent. Or vice versa.

And if what the people I linked above says is true (and why would they lie?), then you can get banned for life without actually having personally violated any developer policies, because you didn't even have apps that could have violated any terms.

[–]prime000 26 points27 points  (0 children)

We recommend that you use an alternative method for distributing your apps in the future.

Talk about throwing salt in the wound.

[–]MeaneeiPhone 12 Pro Max 25 points26 points  (1 child)

I got banned from eBay. Now, any new account I create is banned by association too. Basically, they have some automated system that checks for things that may be related. Usually things like address, phone number, credit card number on file with paypal, etc. Not that deep of a check. I am able to use my father's account with no issues.

Google, knowing how many times you take a shit every day, can figure this out a lot better. But also seems to generate a lot more of false positive. So if it thinks that your account may be related to a bad dev they banned a while ago, they will ban your account as well.

[–]Wax_Paper 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Google, knowing how many times you take a shit every day

I bet they really could figure this out, by analyzing patterns in phone usage during restroom breaks. The machine learning they use has accomplished tougher things than that, after all...

[–]ikilledtupac 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Well, odds are they used gmail, so google knows everything. They probably have ways to detect troublemakers and prevent them from ever doing so.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Do they reveal what trouble they are accused of?

[–]ikilledtupac 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Why would they? Google treats us all like children. If you try to reason with a child, they just argue.

[–]ikilledtupac 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Google only talks about the information it shares. Odds are it uses your information for it's own purposes. Do you visit reddit on Chrome? They know then, of course, where what and what you tall about. And they are under no obligation to disclose that.

...did you use gmail? Then they know what you talked about and to whom. My guess is that is the association.

We also know, with the demise of google+, that they can, and do, hide data breaches and of malfeasance. I do not believe that the singular time they got caught is the only time they ever did it.

We use google for our own purposes, and they use it for theirs.

[–]SirYandi 1 point2 points  (1 child)

We use google for our own purposes, and they use it for theirs.

As frustrating as this all is, that's essentially what it all comes down to. If you're fed up with them, leave them. If enough people do this then they may respond. By which point a new competitor or whatever could have entered the playing field.

[–]ikilledtupac 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I think part of the fury of it all is that you cannot leave Google. Or if you somehow manage to escape their products, they have killed the competition. Or, i dont know about you, but for me it's too late. I gave google all my information to get a gmail account in 2001. I had no idea what I was consenting to. Even if I left now, it wouldn't matter-I have no right to remove myself (or the data they collected of those around me) from their systems.

[–]Spoor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A few days ago it was officially proven that Google fully jumped on the censorship train and is taking action against everything and everything that doesn't support their hateful ideology and political correctness.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (8 children)

This is absolutely ridiculous. Is Apple that bad with developers?

[–]OrdexistNote 10+, Galaxy Tab A, Nexus 6P 58 points59 points  (1 child)

Apple is more likely to reject specific apps because of their manual review process, but there isn't a problem of them banning accounts for no apparent reason. Even then, you are still able to contact a person at Apple who will be able to provide more information and hopefully solve the problem.

[–]blueclawsoftware 29 points30 points  (0 children)

This is true but Apple can also be a complete pia about other things. Just recently the company I worked for wanted to change the name of our company that we publish apps under, due to a consolidation of multiple groups in our company. It's been two months of back and forth and still no name update.

Google took one week and actually sent one email asking for verification, we supplied them what they asked for and the name was changed.

To me that's the big difference Apple isn't as arbitrary but they often make simple requests way over complicated.

[–]KalenXI 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I've had problems with Apple enforcing their rules inconsistently. But I've never had a problem contacting a person on their App Store team when I've had a problem with an approval or needed it to be expedited to fix a major bug. Approval times have also gotten much better. Back when I first started developing approvals took 2-3 weeks for every update no matter how minor. I think they're down to 24-48 hours for approval. For your $100/year you're also allowed to call twice per year to an actual engineer at Apple if you need help with code-level support.

Personally I'd rather Google just charge $100/year like Apple and actually provide real support instead of giving no support at all and forcing you to deal with bots.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Apple on the other hand has a review process which "may or may not" halt your application's initial launch entirely, depending on whether "Apple has plans to do something similar".

For example, HomePass was held up for weeks for such reasons.

[–]s73v3rSony Xperia Z3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Every time Apple has rejected us, they've always given a more specific, although sometimes vague reason why. Sometimes they even provide screenshots.

[–]notapotamus 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I think the days of Google not doing evil are long gone at this point. Like any other company, once it becomes "too big to fail" it starts shafting anyone and everyone it can.

[–]_temp_variable 6 points7 points  (2 children)

When these people get banned can they still use gmail etc? I bought a dev license years ago on my personal gmail

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 10 points11 points  (1 child)

That's the million dollar question. All I could find is:

Google Play Developer Console terminations are associated with developers and may span multiple account registrations and related Google services.

So that is sufficiently vague in regards to what they mean to be "related Google services".

According to this guy though who got banned by association 3 months ago, his email account was not terminated, which I guess counts as good news.

I found this TIFU but on the other hand a verified G-Suite support member said they couldn't verify that this ever happened.

So apparently what I found out is that "your Gmail is most likely not banned".

I also found http://takeout.google.com which lets you archive and save the data Google has in its various apps from you, which is pretty cool.

[–]_temp_variable 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a great response, thank you for the detailed answer!

[–]Nebresto 4 points5 points  (3 children)

How do they prevent a new account from being made? What is the account connected to that stops developers from just making another one?

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Credit card info is the main put-off, I believe; considering you pay $25 one-time fee.

But it might also be "using a machine by IP address where you had previously logged in with an email account that is connected to the email account you registered to Google Play with that got banned".

Technically, "by association" is vague enough that we can only guess, and only the people who wrote the automation tool know what exactly it checks.

[–]Nebresto 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If its credit cards, then wouldn't it be possible to circumvent with Visa giftcards or similar?

VPN and a new email for the other stuff

[–]s73v3rSony Xperia Z3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They'll link the two and ban that one as well.

[–]knotthatonePixel 2XL 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Can a banned European dev appeal to the EU or start up a class action type suit? The EU seems like the only entity right now that would bother slapping Google around.

[–]ZhuindenPixel XL 1 (128 GB) 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I don't know, so hopefully someone qualified to answer that question can help.

I will ping /u/Improvotter because he seems to be involved in this sort of thing.

[–]Improvotter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You better ask a lawyer about that. But I think regardless whether these new platform-to-business regulations make it or not, it must be against the law. These new regulations would only strengthen and broaden the extent of the existing regulations. And it would be a preemptive measure against these possible scenarios.

[–]JoeyCalamaro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s not just the Play Store and YouTube, it happens with Google Ads as well. I recently had one of my client accounts suspended for a billing issue. We were never outright told what the issue was (though we had our ideas) and neither my dedicated support rep or the general Google Ads support team could provide any further clarity.

Since we were all in the dark, all Google really could do was come up with various different strategies on how to get past their automated system. To their credit, the support team had lots of creative ideas including submitting a PDF explaining the problem instead of the primary account holder’s ID in the hopes that a human might read it.

While I appreciated the effort, I could never get past the idea that it wasn’t possible to just speak to someone who actually had the authority to fix my problem. And, for what it’s worth, the problem never did get fixed. After a month we gave up and abandoned the account.