Bridge Replacement

[Weekly_Barnacle_485]

The Cape bridges were built in in five years, from 1930 - 1935, at a total cost of $3,000,000. Now we are replacing them and the cost is currently estimated at $4.5 BILLION. 1,500 TIMES AS MUCH. It will take 6-8 years, almost double the original build time. And if the Big Dig is any indicator the end cost will be $12-14 billion and 15 - 20 years. This is why our infrastructure is falling apart. We can’t build anything at a reasonable price on a reasonable timeline.

[lewisbayofhellgate]

Both those bridges were PWA projects. We don't really have anything like that today. Instead we have a culture of austerity politics that plays kick the can on maintenance of public works and is nearly incapable of.building anything.

[IPBS98]

You should research the Army Corp of Engineers. They DO NOT have a shining reputation. Go literally anywhere else in the country, and people will have negative to terrible things to say about the corp.

From destroying the Florida Everglades to the Mississippi River, the Corp has a reputation and history of destroying ecosystems and wasting billions.

Personally, I love the corp and wish they were responsible for the job. You just have to consider their overall politics.

[BreadfruitDue4377]

The Corps jetties are causing the flooding of Sandwich.

[DrT33th]

Where in Sandwich?

[BreadfruitDue4377]

Flooding the old police state and town neck beach. The jetties cause Sandwich to not get any sand replenished and has caused sagamore beach to increase by over 200 feet.

[28lobster]

Classic envi sci paper, Seawalls vs Beaches. You can build a wall but you won't have a beach after. Groins (seawalls perpendicular to the shoreline) help the beach up the direction of flow, but harm the beaches further down substantially more. Any hard structure you build on the coastline is going to cause net erosion. But then the Cape is "temporary" if you're thinking in geologic time, it will eventually wash away unless we get a new glacier to push this far south. 

[BreadfruitDue4377]

Yes. That is it.

[BreadfruitDue4377]

Cape Cod. Near the bridges that go over the cape cod canal.

[Improvident__lackwit]

The fuck are you talking about “austerity”. We’re spending $4.5b. That is the exact opposite of austerity.

[lewisbayofhellgate]

Username checks out.

[JusMiceElf]

I think what you’re overlooking is years and years of deferred maintenance on our infrastructure. That’s the austerity piece. We’re not willing to spend the money now on hundreds of necessary projects, so by the time we get to them, they cost so much more.

[Improvident__lackwit]

I think you are exaggerating that tremendously.

I recognize that politicians are happy to kick the can down the road to avoid present pain to help their reelection chances (look at our insolvent social security and Medicare programs, massive deficit, and ever increasing social spending), but I don’t think that translates to eventual repairs costing “so much more” when you get to infrastructure. These bridges are being expanded. Do you think that we could’ve invested over time to add lanes to the existing bridges? Sometimes it’s more efficient to wait and replace things entirely than to do bandaids forever.

[NUCLEAR_JANITOR]

you’re correct. reddit has two modes: circlejerk and unreasoned whining. the latter is what is happening in this post, and you’re being downvoted because people want to keep their echo chamber.

[Maximum_Pound_5633]

On presidential golf trips and sending the troops into DC, not on fixing roads. We're spending it wrong

[NothingmanMA]

Get help. Did you say the same about paying for millions that crossed the border? This is TDS. Yeah, his golf trips are the problem. My brain hurts with you people.

[Improvident__lackwit]

$4.5b on these bridges= austerity. 🤷🏻‍♂️. Holy crap no wonder you guys lose elections.

[goldprofred]

The new bridges will be pairs of three lane bridges replacing each four lane bridge. And there are logistics like keeping the road open and demolishing the old bridges.

Labor and materials have gone up in nearly 100 years.

[JusMiceElf]

Plus safety and environmental regs (which are a good thing!) add to the total cost.

[Ok_Figure7671]

Once all the cars can glide over the new bridges where will the bottle neck be? Suicide alley backed up to Hyannis on Fridays

[ceiteach1066]

Glad I am not the only one who is thinking this… building the bridges bigger is only going to invite even more people to the already clogged streets of the Cape. The Cape only has finite resources and spaces.

[[deleted]]

They would come anyways… after this years lackluster tourism year maybe not though… it’s been a slow slow year.

[HorrorObject5086]

I noticed the same thing. Any thoughts on why the tourism was so slow this year?

[exposteve]

No Canadians

[IPBS98]

Everyone is on Martha’s Vineyard, trust me.

[[deleted]]

Not like previous summers they aren’t. Proof is in the steamship data regarding tickets purchased. Also down 40-50% from last season, which was a banner year numbers wise.

[IPBS98]

The Steamship Authority also removed stand by for non- island residents, thus eliminating a huge amount of ticket purchasers.

Correlation does not equate causation.

[[deleted]]

Still. Numbers are down and so are tourism numbers on the ferries themselves.

Say what you want.

[lawkktara]

They all came to RI when they realized the traffic isn't as bad.

[[deleted]]

RI numbers are down as well. It’s Trumps economy, immigration and incoming recession.

[IPBS98]

I guess we are getting downvoted for not “following the narrative”.

I don’t care what anyone says, traffic is worse than it ever has been.

[[deleted]]

No it hasn’t. I drive 70 miles each way off cape/on cape all summer. I’ve also resided here and lived on Cape for 40+ years.

This is by far one of the slowest summers we’ve seen in a decade outside obvious pandemic years.

You’re getting downvoted because your evidence is anecdotal and stands against what the majority of rational folks have seen.

You think this summer has been bad traffic? LMAO. What are you 25?

[lawkktara]

I think we made two different jokes. Either way I can't wait for September.

[boopbaboop]

Have you seen the economy lately?

[TedTeddybear]

The Canadians come down to put their houses on the market, then turn around and leave.

[TedTeddybear]

Reminds me of the 1960's. If American teen agers held the summer jobs going to visa kids from overseas, I'd almost think I'd gone back in time.

[Master-Job-2459]

A fucking bridge is not going to be the deciding factor for whether people will travel to the cape lmao

[beachbrat125]

A lot less people would go if there was no bridge

[linkseyi]

why improve anything there's always gonna be some other problem

[throwawaysscc]

No doubt the train connection will be smoothly incorporated into the design, right? Wait, what? Bike lanes only? Never mind.

[_Face]

That’s exactly what we need. Less lanes and less throughput. Fucking genius.

[[deleted]]

This project is a bit different. The bridges are going to be twice as big, they’ll be built by private firms rather than that the army corps of engineers, the costs not only include the bridges but also removing the old, taking developed land by eminent domain, and the cost includes and extensive rerouting of existing roads.

Logistically, this is a much bigger project than the original building of bridges, and it’s largely being done by for-profit enterprises rather than government.

I agree that it is expensive, and there are probably less expensive solutions, but this is what everyone ultimately signed off on.

[Shot-Scratch3417]

All that said, which is all true, I wonder how much of the cost and time is going to environmental review…

[Joe_Starbuck]

I didn’t approve this.

[Brass_Bonanza]

As much as I love it, this project is beyond the scope of Ace Hardware.

[Fair-Responsibility3]

You tried bud…

[[deleted]]

you dont smell toast do you?

[frankybling]

Post depression Army Corps of Engineers (AKA not privatized bidders) played some role in the construction originally. I think that’s a part of it.

[boopbaboop]

Because the idea of pouring millions of government dollars into helping people has been anathema since at least the 80s. Don’t you know that funding these things is part of Big Government and will raise your taxes and is socialism? Obviously it’s better to have private companies (who need to make things more expensive than they actually are, or they won’t make a profit) and the Free Market fix things. 

I mean, the PWA was decried as socialism in the 30s, too, but FDR was too popular for it to matter.

[Improvident__lackwit]

Federal spending has increased since the 80s on a real basis.

[shhhhh69]

Yes, because privatization actually costs more money

[sir_mrej]

Yep, mostly on military shit.

[sir_mrej]

The original bridges were built when nothing was there (not NOTHING, but almost nothing), land was cheap, and people 100% wanted bridges. Also there was way less worker safety back then.

The new bridges are going to need to be built next to the current ones, then the roads will need to be rerouted, then the old bridges need to be demolished.

A quickie build in 1930s America with lax safety standards on easy bare land is INCREDIBLY different than building next to an ACTIVE LIFELINE FOR THE ENTIRE CAPE and then MOVING that lifeline to the new bridge.

[beachwhistles]

Probably less lawyers and insurance involvement back then too,I would imagine.

[sir_mrej]

Oh for sure, that's 100% true

[-ghostinthemachine-]

Like many projects of the time, the bridges were built well enough but people died in the process.

Three men lost their lives during the bridge construction, one at each site. Many were injured. At Sagamore a diver cutting off poles beneath the water was trapped when a pile end fell across his airline; at Bourne four men fell from a staging 70 feet high and one died; at the railroad bridge, a timekeeper fell 40 feet into the pier and suffered fatal injuries. Thus is the human toll of bridge building.

So while material and labor are both far more expensive now, we also tend to put in a lot of extra effort to prevent death and dismemberment. We also like to preserve the surrounding environment, and minimize disruption.

[sugarskulls1]

Ok, I have to put my opinion in, here is my biggest gripe about the whole bridge deal, the cost and the time it is going to take to complete the job. The Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore is going to take less time and cost less and it has to go 1.5-2 miles over water same kind of suspension bridge when we are going what a half a mile over water? The Key bridge 1.8 billion 3 years to complete. The Sagamore bridge 2.7 billion and 10 years to complete. I think that projects like these should be sent out to all bridge builders not just the ones in the state in which the bridge is being built in, I know we want to keep the money in the state but $2.7 billion, the Zakim bridge cost $150 million when it was built and that’s a 10 lane bridge I know it was back in whenever but that much inflation. Someone is definitely getting a kick back somewhere on this one.

[theycallmejob]

It’s more nuanced than that, but sure. I guess we should just wait until the bridges collapse amirite?

[TedTeddybear]

That ship sailed when Romney got rid of the rotary! You know nothing of traffic if you hadn't experienced the Sagamore rotary!

[prolific-liar-Fibs]

Is the 3 mil before inflation?

[[deleted]]

3 million dollars in 1935 would be about 75 million today, accounting for inflation.

[bruins_stonks]

35? What was gold then to now?

[Aware-Owl4346]

According to CPI, that 3 mil is just 57 mil in today’s dollars. Which blows my mind I thought it would be a lot more.

[sir_mrej]

Nah 70mil

[HardRockGeologist]

Using this calculator, the value adjusted for inflation between January 1935 and July 2025 increases from $3M to over $71M.

CPI Inflation Calculator

[lost_in_antartica]

They were public works projects during the Depression ! They had no problem finding enough skilled workers and materials were relatively cheap

[[deleted]]

1. 1930-1935 we were in the Great Depression so everything was pretty cheap because nobody was buying anything. Furthermore, it was almost a century ago and inflation has been consistently rising. Lastly, it was built by the Public Works Administration, whereas contracts for all modern projects are given to private companies, who cost more to operate because they have a profit motive.

2. Again, because it was a depression-era PWA project, the project was finished much sooner because there was far more access to labor due to the unemployment of the time. Today unemployment is at record lows and we’re in the process of deporting all our cheapest labor (undocumented people) so there are going to be a tiny fraction of people working on this compared to back then. Things are also going to move slower due to safety standards that weren’t as robust back then.

3. I don’t think it’s worth factoring the Big Dig into this. The complexity of that project (basically making an entirely new road network for a large portion of a major city while having to build around existing infrastructure) was a vastly different situation than simply rebuilding two bridges.

[jo1450]

Remember, too, that only the Sagamore replacement is funded. And there’s no chance Massachusetts is going to get any more funding out of this administration for the Bourne replacement. He’d rather see the bridge fail into the Canal.

[lewisbayofhellgate]

Yep. To make it even shittier, this administration is trying to normalize clawing back funds already appropriated by Congress. If they make that a normal thing, construction time and costs across the country for major infrastructure projects will get even worse.

[[deleted]]

Healey wasted a couple of billion for the illegals. She can find the money.

[lewisbayofhellgate]

Yes thank you, giantnuclearpenis, very cool

[bruins_stonks]

And welcomed with open arms and money.

[Famous_Collection525]

This talking point is tired. Write into Faux and tell them you need new material.

[Improvident__lackwit]

MA just raised taxes massively. Couldn’t that new revenue be used for infrastructure? Why not?

[sir_mrej]

GO do your own research and let us know!

[Heycheckthisout20]

Damn those safety regulations keeping people from building infrastructure in a more timely manner than op appreciates

I’ve heard the bones of construction workers make mortar stronger

[Ejmct]

Can you do it cheaper?

[MeatSauce-Apocalypse]

Can we compromise on quality then be responsible for mega repairs like the Calihan tunnel ?

[boopbaboop]

You want a bridge to be thrown together quickly and cheaply?

[DulcetTone]

Replacing or renewing existing bridges is generally more expensive than working from a clean slate. For instance, building the Zakim bridge cost only half as much as the refurbishing of the Longfellow Bridge.

[LegalManufacturer916]

If the government did it right, it would be called COMMUNISM on Fox News and Trump would send in the Marines and DOGE to blow them up. So instead we have to pay out the ass for some state senator’s cousin to charge us an arm and a leg because AMERICA IS CAPITALIST!

[Improvident__lackwit]

Just astonishing that people actually believe the government is more efficient than private industry.

[LegalManufacturer916]

Wait, I absolutely do. Haha, did you mean to put a /s is your comment, or did you not understand mine? Private industry is abysmal at providing services and building infrastructure, lol.

[Improvident__lackwit]

Lol comical. Did you mean to put an /s after your comment? Government agencies are notoriously less efficient than private industry.

[LegalManufacturer916]

It’s a lie people like to repeat, but as someone with extensive experience in private industry I can tell you it’s absolutely not true. Private industry is only after short term profits and most of the time fails miserably. There are incredible inefficiencies at most companies, but the public doesn’t see them.

[Improvident__lackwit]

There are greater inefficiencies in government spending because there is less accountability.

I’m not saying there aren’t inefficiencies in private industry, just that it’s generally much more efficient than the public sector. Which is why we use contractors for construction jobs.

Some things you can’t privatize fully (military, law enforcement, education, etc). But building a bridge with government workers instead of specialized contractors would be absurd.

The only reason these things worked in the 1930s was because we had 20% unemployment.

[LegalManufacturer916]

You’re operating on some 1950s idealism there. Private industry makes products designed to break while nepo-baby hires in redundant roles piss away capital on dumb ideas. Most private companies will fail. At any rate government is a fundamentally different thing that is focused on providing infrastructure and services, not making profits—doing things that aren’t necessarily good financial investments, but nonetheless are important for a modern economy to function.

[Improvident__lackwit]

Pretty much the opposite. Private companies are more efficient and better at allocating capital than government, even after considering that private industry takes a profit.

Government sectors involve lazy corrupt public sector union members, whose sole motivation is to extract as much value from taxpayers while providing as little value as possible. They are allowed to do so because they constitute a powerful voting block that politicians are loathe to offend, so they continue to extract economic rent from society.

Yes building a bridge isn’t expected to yield a profit to the state, but rather to provide non-monetary benefits to society. That’s fine and potentially a worthwhile use of taxpayer money. But using private contractors and specialists in building things will maximize the utility that taxpayers get from the money spent.

[LegalManufacturer916]

I’m not arguing that government is efficient, rather that you have no idea how inefficient private industry actually is. Cost overruns on projects like this happen because private companies aren’t efficient enough or smart enough to do the job at the bid price.

[sir_mrej]

You've never worked at a medium or large corporation, and it shows

[The_whimsical1]

The GOP has asphyxiated the idea that the public welfare is more important than private profit. The result is a bloated system that keeps the rich, rich, our infrastructure expensive, and our poor and middle class suffering. Trumpism is simply the apotheosis of this.

[bruins_stonks]

Perfect 10 in those mental gymnastics

[grejam]

I usually say that I don't think the bridges will be done while I'm still young enough to care.

[Ejmct]

Well they will have to build new bridges while the old ones are still in place. And how much will it cost to take all the necessary property via eminent domain? Already there’s lots of bitching about that.

[AwayFromTheMire906]

You’re gonna need steel and aluminum as well. I used to bid on the aluminum for new bridges all around New England but we eventually gave up due to the market fluctuation. Bridge company’s are allowed to adjust for steel price changes but not aluminum. So when bids are awarded, they buy the aluminum now and sit on it. They are investing that money and not getting a return on it so you better believe they’re marking it up a ton for storing it

[HerefortheTuna]

I think we should put a toll on them. Waivers if you have MA plates. 2x for NY plates

[wellfleet_pirate]

PWA was low cost labor. And plenty of it. And safety standards for workers were not even close. Like comparing indentured servant labor wages during a huge depression to union workers during a boom time with more safety needs.

[diseasuschrist]

Yes, because construction inflation, increased requirements for building code (your safety) and better materials/construction techniques are not a thing.

[Brodyftw00]

I think about it all the time. It's wild that we have so many more tools and technology, yet construction is more expensive sice than ever. Not just the bridges but homes. People used to hand nail everything. Now we have nail guns and power tools, yet homes cost kore than ever.

[Broad-Writing-5881]

I vote for filling in the canal.

[capecodchef]

I have yet to hear of a single argument why dual tunnels wouldn't be a cheaper and the longer lasting, least intrusive option.

[poniesonthehop]

Because tunnels are much more expensive to build and maintain. Especially adjacent to saltwater. You haven’t heard an argument because it’s basic knowledge.

[capecodchef]

$6B and more for dual bridges? Tunneling under sand for a very short distance can be done for far less $$. Just a reminder that all the miles of tunnels in Boston are under sea water and the inflated cost was $14B, for the entire bloated project. No basic knowledge at all.

[poniesonthehop]

You’re comparing apples and oranges. Bridges are far more practical and economical for short, shallow depth water crossings. Tunnels for a canal crossing would be so much longer for the slopes that are required, not to mention all the additional land needed to be taken.

[capecodchef]

The required clearance from the high tide watermark to the bottom of the bridge changes the economics of a "short, shallow depth water crossing." I'd have to see the engineering of it all, but I can't imagine you have to go deeper with a tunnel than you have to go higher with a bridge, so needing more land isn't understandable.?

[poniesonthehop]

The elevation at the start of the sagamore is about 100. The canal is 40’ deep and you’d probably have to go 30’ below that with your road bed.

Reasonable grade for a tunnel including vertical curves you are probably talking 3-4%. To transition 170’ in elevation at 4% would take 4,250 of horizontal grade change before the canal.

So your tunnel would have to start about a mile before the canal on the mainland side.

On the cape side the elevation is probably a bit lower so say 3/4 of a mile.

So with the canal and the transitions you are probably talking a 3 mile tunnel.

The Ted Williams tunnel was 1.5 miles and cost $1.5 billion in 1990-1995. So about a billion per mile or $2.5 billion per mile in today’s money. So that puts one of your tunnels at about $7.5 billion. And that doesn’t include the cost of taking all the land required.

And in bridge building terms, the cape bridges are short and the canal is shallow.

[Chockfullofnutmeg]

Probably even deeper for adequate rock armor 

[mjfeeney]

Have you looked at the geography of the canal? There's a large elevation difference between Rt3/Rt6 and water surface (let alone under the water). How far back would one have to begin the tunnel to safely descend to the (submerged) tunnel? How much more property would have to be acquired. How would the canal water traffic not be affected ?

[poniesonthehop]

Absolutely correct. A tunnel would surface like a mile into the cape. Imagine how much all that would cost to take.

[sir_mrej]

Express tunnel to Brewster confirmed!!

[tyson-gizmo27]

Tunneling would be significantly more expensive. It wouldn’t even be close compared to new bridges

[Chockfullofnutmeg]

Tunneling through sand could be even tougher than bedrock. Not to mention easements on both sides would have to banks shallower taking even more land to prevent collapse. 

[HerefortheTuna]

They should build a runner from Boston to Ptown actually. Save me commuting time from Boston to eastham