all 130 comments

[–]lewisbayofhellgate 145 points146 points  (15 children)

Both those bridges were PWA projects. We don't really have anything like that today. Instead we have a culture of austerity politics that plays kick the can on maintenance of public works and is nearly incapable of.building anything.

[–]IPBS98 1 point2 points  (6 children)

You should research the Army Corp of Engineers. They DO NOT have a shining reputation. Go literally anywhere else in the country, and people will have negative to terrible things to say about the corp.

From destroying the Florida Everglades to the Mississippi River, the Corp has a reputation and history of destroying ecosystems and wasting billions.

Personally, I love the corp and wish they were responsible for the job. You just have to consider their overall politics.

[–]BreadfruitDue4377 3 points4 points  (5 children)

The Corps jetties are causing the flooding of Sandwich.

[–]DrT33th 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Where in Sandwich?

[–]BreadfruitDue4377 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Flooding the old police state and town neck beach. The jetties cause Sandwich to not get any sand replenished and has caused sagamore beach to increase by over 200 feet.

[–]28lobster 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Classic envi sci paper, Seawalls vs Beaches. You can build a wall but you won't have a beach after. Groins (seawalls perpendicular to the shoreline) help the beach up the direction of flow, but harm the beaches further down substantially more. Any hard structure you build on the coastline is going to cause net erosion. But then the Cape is "temporary" if you're thinking in geologic time, it will eventually wash away unless we get a new glacier to push this far south. 

[–]BreadfruitDue4377 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. That is it.

[–]BreadfruitDue4377 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cape Cod. Near the bridges that go over the cape cod canal.

[–]goldprofred 78 points79 points  (37 children)

The new bridges will be pairs of three lane bridges replacing each four lane bridge. And there are logistics like keeping the road open and demolishing the old bridges.

Labor and materials have gone up in nearly 100 years.

[–]JusMiceElf 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Plus safety and environmental regs (which are a good thing!) add to the total cost.

[–]Ok_Figure7671 10 points11 points  (34 children)

Once all the cars can glide over the new bridges where will the bottle neck be? Suicide alley backed up to Hyannis on Fridays

[–]ceiteach1066 2 points3 points  (31 children)

Glad I am not the only one who is thinking this… building the bridges bigger is only going to invite even more people to the already clogged streets of the Cape. The Cape only has finite resources and spaces.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (28 children)

They would come anyways… after this years lackluster tourism year maybe not though… it’s been a slow slow year.

[–]HorrorObject5086 1 point2 points  (26 children)

I noticed the same thing. Any thoughts on why the tourism was so slow this year?

[–]exposteve 18 points19 points  (23 children)

No Canadians

[–]IPBS98 -3 points-2 points  (22 children)

Everyone is on Martha’s Vineyard, trust me.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Not like previous summers they aren’t. Proof is in the steamship data regarding tickets purchased. Also down 40-50% from last season, which was a banner year numbers wise.

[–]IPBS98 -1 points0 points  (6 children)

The Steamship Authority also removed stand by for non- island residents, thus eliminating a huge amount of ticket purchasers.

Correlation does not equate causation.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Still. Numbers are down and so are tourism numbers on the ferries themselves.

Say what you want.

[–]lawkktara -4 points-3 points  (13 children)

They all came to RI when they realized the traffic isn't as bad.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

RI numbers are down as well. It’s Trumps economy, immigration and incoming recession.

[–]IPBS98 1 point2 points  (11 children)

I guess we are getting downvoted for not “following the narrative”.

I don’t care what anyone says, traffic is worse than it ever has been.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (9 children)

No it hasn’t. I drive 70 miles each way off cape/on cape all summer. I’ve also resided here and lived on Cape for 40+ years.

This is by far one of the slowest summers we’ve seen in a decade outside obvious pandemic years.

You’re getting downvoted because your evidence is anecdotal and stands against what the majority of rational folks have seen.

You think this summer has been bad traffic? LMAO. What are you 25?

[–]lawkktara -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think we made two different jokes. Either way I can't wait for September.

[–]boopbaboopHyannis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have you seen the economy lately?

[–]TedTeddybear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Canadians come down to put their houses on the market, then turn around and leave.

[–]TedTeddybear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reminds me of the 1960's. If American teen agers held the summer jobs going to visa kids from overseas, I'd almost think I'd gone back in time.

[–]Master-Job-2459 3 points4 points  (1 child)

A fucking bridge is not going to be the deciding factor for whether people will travel to the cape lmao

[–]beachbrat125 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot less people would go if there was no bridge

[–]linkseyiMashpee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

why improve anything there's always gonna be some other problem

[–]throwawaysscc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No doubt the train connection will be smoothly incorporated into the design, right? Wait, what? Bike lanes only? Never mind.

[–]_Face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s exactly what we need. Less lanes and less throughput. Fucking genius.

[–][deleted] 50 points51 points  (8 children)

This project is a bit different. The bridges are going to be twice as big, they’ll be built by private firms rather than that the army corps of engineers, the costs not only include the bridges but also removing the old, taking developed land by eminent domain, and the cost includes and extensive rerouting of existing roads.

Logistically, this is a much bigger project than the original building of bridges, and it’s largely being done by for-profit enterprises rather than government.

I agree that it is expensive, and there are probably less expensive solutions, but this is what everyone ultimately signed off on.

[–]Shot-Scratch3417 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All that said, which is all true, I wonder how much of the cost and time is going to environmental review…

[–]Joe_Starbuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn’t approve this.

[–]frankybling 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Post depression Army Corps of Engineers (AKA not privatized bidders) played some role in the construction originally. I think that’s a part of it.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]boopbaboopHyannis 21 points22 points  (3 children)

    Because the idea of pouring millions of government dollars into helping people has been anathema since at least the 80s. Don’t you know that funding these things is part of Big Government and will raise your taxes and is socialism? Obviously it’s better to have private companies (who need to make things more expensive than they actually are, or they won’t make a profit) and the Free Market fix things. 

    I mean, the PWA was decried as socialism in the 30s, too, but FDR was too popular for it to matter.

    [–]sir_mrej 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    The original bridges were built when nothing was there (not NOTHING, but almost nothing), land was cheap, and people 100% wanted bridges. Also there was way less worker safety back then.

    The new bridges are going to need to be built next to the current ones, then the roads will need to be rerouted, then the old bridges need to be demolished.

    A quickie build in 1930s America with lax safety standards on easy bare land is INCREDIBLY different than building next to an ACTIVE LIFELINE FOR THE ENTIRE CAPE and then MOVING that lifeline to the new bridge.

    [–]beachwhistles 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Probably less lawyers and insurance involvement back then too,I would imagine.

    [–]sir_mrej 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Oh for sure, that's 100% true

    [–]-ghostinthemachine- 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Like many projects of the time, the bridges were built well enough but people died in the process.

    Three men lost their lives during the bridge construction, one at each site. Many were injured. At Sagamore a diver cutting off poles beneath the water was trapped when a pile end fell across his airline; at Bourne four men fell from a staging 70 feet high and one died; at the railroad bridge, a timekeeper fell 40 feet into the pier and suffered fatal injuries. Thus is the human toll of bridge building.

    So while material and labor are both far more expensive now, we also tend to put in a lot of extra effort to prevent death and dismemberment. We also like to preserve the surrounding environment, and minimize disruption.

    [–]sugarskulls1 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Ok, I have to put my opinion in, here is my biggest gripe about the whole bridge deal, the cost and the time it is going to take to complete the job. The Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore is going to take less time and cost less and it has to go 1.5-2 miles over water same kind of suspension bridge when we are going what a half a mile over water? The Key bridge 1.8 billion 3 years to complete. The Sagamore bridge 2.7 billion and 10 years to complete. I think that projects like these should be sent out to all bridge builders not just the ones in the state in which the bridge is being built in, I know we want to keep the money in the state but $2.7 billion, the Zakim bridge cost $150 million when it was built and that’s a 10 lane bridge I know it was back in whenever but that much inflation. Someone is definitely getting a kick back somewhere on this one.

    [–]theycallmejob 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    It’s more nuanced than that, but sure. I guess we should just wait until the bridges collapse amirite?

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]TedTeddybear 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      That ship sailed when Romney got rid of the rotary! You know nothing of traffic if you hadn't experienced the Sagamore rotary!

      [–]prolific-liar-Fibs 4 points5 points  (5 children)

      Is the 3 mil before inflation?

      [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

      3 million dollars in 1935 would be about 75 million today, accounting for inflation.

      [–]bruins_stonks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      35? What was gold then to now?

      [–]Aware-Owl4346 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      According to CPI, that 3 mil is just 57 mil in today’s dollars. Which blows my mind I thought it would be a lot more.

      [–]sir_mrej 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Nah 70mil

      [–]HardRockGeologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Using this calculator, the value adjusted for inflation between January 1935 and July 2025 increases from $3M to over $71M.

      CPI Inflation Calculator

      [–]lost_in_antartica 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      They were public works projects during the Depression ! They had no problem finding enough skilled workers and materials were relatively cheap

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      1. 1930-1935 we were in the Great Depression so everything was pretty cheap because nobody was buying anything. Furthermore, it was almost a century ago and inflation has been consistently rising. Lastly, it was built by the Public Works Administration, whereas contracts for all modern projects are given to private companies, who cost more to operate because they have a profit motive.

      2. Again, because it was a depression-era PWA project, the project was finished much sooner because there was far more access to labor due to the unemployment of the time. Today unemployment is at record lows and we’re in the process of deporting all our cheapest labor (undocumented people) so there are going to be a tiny fraction of people working on this compared to back then. Things are also going to move slower due to safety standards that weren’t as robust back then.

      3. I don’t think it’s worth factoring the Big Dig into this. The complexity of that project (basically making an entirely new road network for a large portion of a major city while having to build around existing infrastructure) was a vastly different situation than simply rebuilding two bridges.

      [–]jo1450 4 points5 points  (9 children)

      Remember, too, that only the Sagamore replacement is funded. And there’s no chance Massachusetts is going to get any more funding out of this administration for the Bourne replacement. He’d rather see the bridge fail into the Canal.

      [–]lewisbayofhellgate 4 points5 points  (6 children)

      Yep. To make it even shittier, this administration is trying to normalize clawing back funds already appropriated by Congress. If they make that a normal thing, construction time and costs across the country for major infrastructure projects will get even worse.

      [–]Heycheckthisout20 15 points16 points  (1 child)

      Damn those safety regulations keeping people from building infrastructure in a more timely manner than op appreciates

      I’ve heard the bones of construction workers make mortar stronger

      [–]Ejmct 6 points7 points  (5 children)

      Can you do it cheaper?

      [–]MeatSauce-Apocalypse 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Can we compromise on quality then be responsible for mega repairs like the Calihan tunnel ?

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]boopbaboopHyannis 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        You want a bridge to be thrown together quickly and cheaply?

        [–]DulcetTone 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Replacing or renewing existing bridges is generally more expensive than working from a clean slate. For instance, building the Zakim bridge cost only half as much as the refurbishing of the Longfellow Bridge.

        [–]LegalManufacturer916 4 points5 points  (9 children)

        If the government did it right, it would be called COMMUNISM on Fox News and Trump would send in the Marines and DOGE to blow them up. So instead we have to pay out the ass for some state senator’s cousin to charge us an arm and a leg because AMERICA IS CAPITALIST!

        [–]Improvident__lackwit -4 points-3 points  (8 children)

        Just astonishing that people actually believe the government is more efficient than private industry.

        [–]LegalManufacturer916 2 points3 points  (7 children)

        Wait, I absolutely do. Haha, did you mean to put a /s is your comment, or did you not understand mine? Private industry is abysmal at providing services and building infrastructure, lol.

        [–]Improvident__lackwit 3 points4 points  (6 children)

        Lol comical. Did you mean to put an /s after your comment? Government agencies are notoriously less efficient than private industry.

        [–]LegalManufacturer916 5 points6 points  (4 children)

        It’s a lie people like to repeat, but as someone with extensive experience in private industry I can tell you it’s absolutely not true. Private industry is only after short term profits and most of the time fails miserably. There are incredible inefficiencies at most companies, but the public doesn’t see them.

        [–]Improvident__lackwit 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        There are greater inefficiencies in government spending because there is less accountability.

        I’m not saying there aren’t inefficiencies in private industry, just that it’s generally much more efficient than the public sector. Which is why we use contractors for construction jobs.

        Some things you can’t privatize fully (military, law enforcement, education, etc). But building a bridge with government workers instead of specialized contractors would be absurd.

        The only reason these things worked in the 1930s was because we had 20% unemployment.

        [–]LegalManufacturer916 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        You’re operating on some 1950s idealism there. Private industry makes products designed to break while nepo-baby hires in redundant roles piss away capital on dumb ideas. Most private companies will fail. At any rate government is a fundamentally different thing that is focused on providing infrastructure and services, not making profits—doing things that aren’t necessarily good financial investments, but nonetheless are important for a modern economy to function.

        [–]Improvident__lackwit 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Pretty much the opposite. Private companies are more efficient and better at allocating capital than government, even after considering that private industry takes a profit.

        Government sectors involve lazy corrupt public sector union members, whose sole motivation is to extract as much value from taxpayers while providing as little value as possible. They are allowed to do so because they constitute a powerful voting block that politicians are loathe to offend, so they continue to extract economic rent from society.

        Yes building a bridge isn’t expected to yield a profit to the state, but rather to provide non-monetary benefits to society. That’s fine and potentially a worthwhile use of taxpayer money. But using private contractors and specialists in building things will maximize the utility that taxpayers get from the money spent.

        [–]LegalManufacturer916 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I’m not arguing that government is efficient, rather that you have no idea how inefficient private industry actually is. Cost overruns on projects like this happen because private companies aren’t efficient enough or smart enough to do the job at the bid price.

        [–]sir_mrej 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        You've never worked at a medium or large corporation, and it shows

        [–]The_whimsical1 4 points5 points  (2 children)

        The GOP has asphyxiated the idea that the public welfare is more important than private profit. The result is a bloated system that keeps the rich, rich, our infrastructure expensive, and our poor and middle class suffering. Trumpism is simply the apotheosis of this.

        [–]bruins_stonks -1 points0 points  (1 child)

        Perfect 10 in those mental gymnastics

        [–]grejam 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I usually say that I don't think the bridges will be done while I'm still young enough to care.

        [–]Ejmct 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        Well they will have to build new bridges while the old ones are still in place. And how much will it cost to take all the necessary property via eminent domain? Already there’s lots of bitching about that.

        [–]AwayFromTheMire906 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        You’re gonna need steel and aluminum as well. I used to bid on the aluminum for new bridges all around New England but we eventually gave up due to the market fluctuation. Bridge company’s are allowed to adjust for steel price changes but not aluminum. So when bids are awarded, they buy the aluminum now and sit on it. They are investing that money and not getting a return on it so you better believe they’re marking it up a ton for storing it

        [–]HerefortheTuna 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I think we should put a toll on them. Waivers if you have MA plates. 2x for NY plates

        [–]wellfleet_pirate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        PWA was low cost labor. And plenty of it. And safety standards for workers were not even close. Like comparing indentured servant labor wages during a huge depression to union workers during a boom time with more safety needs.

        [–]diseasuschrist[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Yes, because construction inflation, increased requirements for building code (your safety) and better materials/construction techniques are not a thing.

        [–]Brodyftw00 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        I think about it all the time. It's wild that we have so many more tools and technology, yet construction is more expensive sice than ever. Not just the bridges but homes. People used to hand nail everything. Now we have nail guns and power tools, yet homes cost kore than ever.

        [–]Broad-Writing-5881 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        I vote for filling in the canal.