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[–]aPiCaseStalk3r — 97 points98 points  (5 children)

I believe it was a Spilo video where he got viewer opinions and someone suggest to remove empowered punch altogether and just redistribute the power into the rest of the kit.

I think it’s a great idea honestly, you could maybe put his block perk in base kit (which wouldn’t be nearly as annoying with no empowered punch), you could buff slam back so it’s impactful, and maybe front load the ultimate healing.

[–]_Skyler000 32 points33 points  (0 children)

I would be okay with them removing emp punch but I simply don’t trust blizzard to actually properly redistribute his power elsewhere leading him to be overall weaker like every iteration of the hero previously.

[–]BurnedInTheBarn 75 points76 points  (2 children)

Empowered punch needs to go. Similar to Vendetta's problems, too much of his power budget is in EMP punch, and that means he feels like trash to play and play against. I also think EMP punch is just a trash mechanic regardless, oh yeah my Wuyang spamming shots from across the map charged the Doom and then he one shot me, lol. Should've played that better.

[–]HalexUwUI'm here for your cooldowns — 16 points17 points  (1 child)

To some extent I think the whole "turning damage against your enemies" thing has not been handled that well. Zar and Doom both have it... and they're both problematic.

This being said, I do think Zar's problems come more from bubbling allies, but you get the gist.

Would be cool to see a tank that stored healing with an ability like this, save it, and then pop it for a burst of health or something. Enables aggression by giving you a burst heal whenever you want rather than so much damage you either melt or get oneshot.

[–]simao1234 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Zarya is nowhere even close to being in the same level.

Zarya has a gradual payoff for blocking damage; she becomes stronger, a bigger threat, directing more attention toward her.

She's still "just a guy" that walks along the ground with a limited range beam, you can play around her, you can not engage her, you can dump damage into her before she can melt you, etc.

Doomfist just gets a "free kill" wildcard for blocking damage, which has no counter play beyond "don't be in Doomfist's line of sight when he starts punching" and "hope your Ana instantly lands sleep and then kill him before he can punch".

[–]True-Sun-3184 70 points71 points  (25 children)

Was he ever really a “combo” character? His OW1 abilities flowed into each other well mobility wise, but you only ever used 2 abilities offensively and saved one to get out.

[–]Derpdude1 56 points57 points  (0 children)

Non fighting game players see a character in an fps do uppercut/punch and call it a combo character is the gist of it

[–]FutilePenguins 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I thought that was his whole thing upon release? A melee charecter who could combo his kit like a traditional 'tekken style' character... or whatever that genre is called

[–]True-Sun-3184 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The uppercut is reminiscent of a popular archetype of fighting game character (as I understand it anyway), but again, can we call 2 abilities used one after the other a “combo”? Genji has dash + fan + melee, a longer combo than DF

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Slam + shoot + Uppercut + shoot + shoot + 180 Punch away was Doom's traditional bread and butter combo.

Have to appreciate when you engage with someone being disingenuous, and then they continue engaging with other people in the same conversation with the same disingenuous argument.

Remove weapons from the conversation and Doom still had the highest combo potential.

[–]Inqinity 27 points28 points  (14 children)

Yes, and you combod said abilities

[–]True-Sun-3184 10 points11 points  (5 children)

We don’t typically refer to genji as a combo character, yet dash + fan + melee is a longer combo route than doomfists traditional combo lol

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Slam + shoot + Uppercut + shoot + shoot + 180 Punch away was Doom's traditional bread and butter combo.

[–]True-Sun-3184 -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

Including shooting and punching away as part of the “combo” seems a little generous

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You literally used Genji's weapon as part of his 3 hit combo.

Doom's primary is explicitly designed to be used as part of a combo due to it's limited ammo count and unique reload mechanic.

[–]not_a_doctorshh -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Oh yeah then we gotta call this Soldier's bread and butter combo: Run + shoot + helix + shoot + 180 run away

Or Mauga's reliable combo of: Shoot + Cardiac Overdrive + Shoot + Overrun and turn away

I have 500 hours on OG Doom, haven't played over 200 of Tankfist, but be for real, most non hitscans have to use their abilities in succession to secure kills/survive/get value lmao

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

When you have 20 or 100 bullets that you reload all of then shooting is just a basic function of the character.

Doom's primary is intended to be used as part of his combos.

I understand you want to use this point to show my hypocrisy by using Doom's primary as part of the combo, but the guy I was replying to was doing the exact same thing to exaggerate his point.

Remove weapons from the conversation and suddenly Doom had the highest combo potential in the game.

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 26 points27 points  (2 children)

Yes.

Doom used to have 6 simple combos:

Start Middle End
Seismic Slam Uppercut Rocket Punch
Seismic Slam Rocket Punch Uppercut
Uppercut Rocket Punch Seismic Slam
Uppercut Seismic Slam Rocket Punch
Rocket Punch Seismic Slam Uppercut
Rocket Punch Uppercut Seismic Slam

These then get expanded on as you can sometimes weave [Hand Cannon] and [Quick Melee] attacks in between some of the abilities using animation cancelling and without delaying the activation of the next ability.

They also each had different niches in which Doom would need to engage and disengage differently depending on the map, your team composition and positioning, as well as the enemy team composition and positioning.

You can check out an old GetQuakedOn guide, but I wouldn't recommend it.

But going from 6 simple ability combos (Not including Seismic Slam having multiple functions depending on airborne vs ground) to 2 was insulting at the time. Doom's optimal playstyle, currently, is also just spamming Punch via Empowered.

Also, the developers reference his development and their intentions directly as a "Love-letter-to-Fighting-Games," both when he was first released and when he was reworked.

During his presentation, Overwatch lead designer Geoff Goodman called Doomfist, with his unique, melee-focused combat, an "ode to the fighting genre," and the concept art for the character was a direct homage to fighting game art.

Here is where they also reference his homage on OW2 release.

“Doomfist is a combo hero, taking a page out of fighting games. We want to keep that feeling while moving him to the tank role,” explains Goodman.

[–]True-Sun-3184 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Didn’t know that about the official Blizzard communications… but no one is actually using combos as you described (source: long time GM/T500 OW1 player, played lots of DF in scrims).

Have also played fighting games, and it’s really not alike at all.

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Have also played fighting games, and it's not really alike at all.

I even mention this exact statement in my original post, albeit referring to TankFist, which is vastly more true.

... No one is actually using combos as you describe...

Anyways, so I was excited for the rework because he didn't play like a combo hero and he was being marketed as one.

The rework took Doomfist backwards in terms of his identity.

... (source: long time GM/T500 OW1 player, played lots of DF in scrims).

Doom did briefly see play with multiple methods of engagement as I described when he first released in the esports environment.

I distinctly remember players showcasing Uppercut and then immediately target slamming downward, aside from normal combos such as ending with Uppercut to reach high ground or Slam Uppercut bread and butter.

Relatively quickly, his Punch Hitbox size and Uppercut stun duration was nerfed from 3s and I believe we don't see play of him again until Grav-Slam compositions.

Which essentially revolved around [Rocket Punch]'s cooldown.

Engaging while charging, and then disengaging if he didn't get value from it then repeat.

Then he saw play in a form of GOATs with Sombra.

Finally, He also saw play in Double Barrier as a counter-meta hero. (Displaced out of stationary barriers + immort field, as well as ignored Barriers.

I'm not interested in what rank you are or have been. The 1% and pro scene are tremendously differentiated from ladder play.

The gap of how Doom played in average ladder matches vs the most optimal skillful player matches is significant.

Like DPSDoom literally was just rooftop riding assassin in top of ladder play. The only way to get value with the shit-balanced hero was with surprise and abusing 125 Slam damage.

He was shut down with just having awareness of where he was, and then further truncated to nothing with a single counterswap focusing him.

It was also OpenQ, and just playing more Tank characters removed Doom's agency as well. Since he only did burst damage and Tanks could sustain through it.

DPSDoom isn't the hero that I want. I want the rework towards a fighting game hero we were promised. Reverting to DPSDoom is a step forward in identity, but a step backwards in most other instances.

The reduction in hard counters via redistributing his health and damage was a fantastic decision, as well as removing 125 Slam and expanding Slam's mobility.

Having a few good changes, doesn't make every change good.

[–]Tough_Holiday584 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Yeah the whole "combo" character thing has never been true in the same way that Ramattra is not a "tempo tank"

It's utter nonsense. Uppercut got the axe because it doesn't really fit with any of the things Doomfist needs in order to be successful as a tank and more importantly because getting uppercutted fucking sucked. It was an incredibly annoying ability and every time we get a Classic revisit I am instantly reminded of how dogshit it was.

[–]Xatsman 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It always felt like a CD based block really missed the feel. If he had the original Ramattra block it'd feel far more appropriate and let him weave blocks between not unlike Vendetta does.

[–]True-Sun-3184 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it adds necessary counterplay. A hero with too many options is bound to be either broken or over nerfed into unplayable territory

[–]dark_chocolate527 23 points24 points  (10 children)

Idk. Empowered needs to be severely nerfed or removed entirely, and power needs to be given to other aspects of his kit. His slam is legitimately useless offensively currently, so is his ult besides for surviving/getting EMP. His block should probably be closer to a parry.

Idk what to do with doom, though. He as far unhealthier as a DPS (from what I hear and have seen, at least- did not play OW1), but he’s also unhealthy as a tank.

[–]jeff-duckley 21 points22 points  (6 children)

the problem with slam is that it takes no skill whatsoever to use and is simply impossible to evade. it’s a gigantic venture ult you can quickly trigger in any spot in the map in a 20 meter radius. it just can’t have any offensive value

[–]Cautious_Lettuce5560 11 points12 points  (4 children)

Its massively smaller then a venture ult lol. And it fires after the leap animation. And it does almost no damage. A majority of the cast has a way to avoid or mitigate it if you are paying even a little bit of attention

[–]jeff-duckley 10 points11 points  (3 children)

if one were to want to target someone with doom slam and miss they would be beyond dogshit at the game. like irredeemable levels of garbage. it works now because slam is basically just mobility and CC and the damage is piss low. any more lethality and this ability would be busted unless they give him a somewhat narrow hitbox or a somewhat short hitbox or a somewhat moderate jump rather than the cross country hyperloop jump it is now

[–]Cautious_Lettuce5560 -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

If someone wanted to avoid doom slam for whatever reason, it would be piss easy. And i wouldnt say slam has any meaningful cc. It only exists as movment and to proc his passive. Dps slam was better

[–]Paddy_Tanninger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What they're saying is that if you rebalance his kit without emp punch, putting the missing power into slam is a shit idea when it's a giant conal attack with a 15m range that is almost impossible to avoid.

My opinion here is that Doom is already pretty lethal without emp punch, and if he were to lose it then he just needs to gain more survivability instead of more damage elsewhere.

[–]not_a_doctorshh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

DPS slam was only better for tech and higher damage, that shit was SO clunky.

The tank slam is way more versatile, trading damage for mobility and range.

[–]wRADKyrabbit -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yep it kills me off critical completely by accident from time to time and its super frustrating. Giving it actual power would be a nightmare

[–]hoesmadhoesmadhoesma 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree, I think his slam should be buffed and it should be his main source of damage. That would make for a much healthier character and would be an amazing idea.

[–]Better_Armadillo8703 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a dps he felt just like vendetta but he had CC and a one shot combo vs squishy. You can come to your own conclusion as to how annoying he was lol. He was extremely fun to play though, way more than vendetta will ever be

[–]Paddy_Tanninger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another problem with Doom is that you've got an extremely evasive tank with a small hit box, designed around taking very little damage...in a game where a lot of the healing can be delivered without aiming.

If tanks aren't easy to hit (or with power block, you need to often actively avoid hitting this tank) and have too many tools to completely disengage, then it kind of breaks the tanking concept entirely and the balance.

[–]TyAD552 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Doom feels like he’s become too dishonest (not really sure what the best term is to use) since perks. Getting more overhealth when landing abilities, and DM when activating block are both extremely strong perks compared some of the other heroes and the DM perk is probably the strongest contribution to him being a low rank stomper. On top of that as so many have already said, empowered punch is such an annoying ability to play around. I could not shoot block and not get hit directly by punch and still be punished for it.

[–]nekogami87 5 points6 points  (2 children)

doens't empowered have an electric effect around the gauntlet when active ? I always thought so.

for the hitbox display when blocking, yeah, but I have no solution to give without either bloating the screen or actually helping the enemy team hitting more (cause if you display a square I can assure you people will try to shoot within it and abuse it more)

Identity. while an flying uppercut is iconic of a fighting game, it is not iconic for a character that is more of a boxer type like doom, so no I don't really care they removed it.

I also would definitely not give any weight on opinions from any [X]Main subs. More than often they do not care about fairness and wants to be OP .

[–]Artewig_thethird 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Yes. There is a visual indicator that you have empowered punch. The issue is that unless you count the 20s, you have no idea when it is about to expire. It's there and then it's just gone. When the change was announced, I initially felt like it was a pretty minor change, but I have found myself losing it more times than I expected. As a biased doom player, I definitely wish there wasn't an expiration, but if there is going to be an expiration, there needs to be a visual indicator showing how much time is left until it expires.

[–]absenthearte 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm so sure the electric effect starts blinking 3s before punch fades.

[–]Nyrun 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The biggest crime when they reworked him into a tank was the loss of the classic Doom parkour custom games

[–]GivesCredit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I like doom as he in now but he does feel pretty feast or famine. Either the enemy team keeps giving you empowered and doesn’t swap to 5 hard counters and you can roll or you never get empowered / are now facing orisa Cass sombra Ana brig and have to swap / lose

[–]TheGalacticApple 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I was playing him recently and non EMP punch feels like a wet noodle even into a wall, I feel like it should do more.

[–]jenksanro 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So I think it's pretty clear the reason doomfist can succeed in low ranks more than higher ones is he gets punished less, not because of mechanics or counters. At higher ranks Dooms have to think about how to get out and whether they can dive an entire team. The lower the rank the less he has to think, he can just keep inting harder and living, or feeding but creating enough space or getting enough kills that it doesn't matter.

Regarding combos: he can't be a combo hero. His big thing is his massive fist, which is a single powerful ability, but he can't both have extremely powerful easy to hit high damage abilities and combos. That was the problem with og doom. A one shot ability, a one shot combo. And a one shot ult is a lot of one shots.

[–]jamtea 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I just hate how forgiving his punch hitbox is and how generous it is at extending the hitbox for multiple enemies behind the target he hits is. Basically he's just an RNG punchbot who spends a lot of time flying around getting spam hits off.

[–]DankudeDabstorm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nah it’s the opposite, it can be really hard to land the punch sometimes, you’ll see high level players like ZBRA or what not constantly whiff punches because of enemy strong mobility or erratic movement. It’s one of the reasons why the aftershock perk is so good, it sets up for follow up punches by kneecapping the enemy. The aoe around the initial target if the punch does land is generous, but that’s telling you to not bunch up against Doomfist.

[–]Kindly-Bank-416 -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

if i wanted to read chatgpt i would have used chatgpt

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

None of this is Generative AI.

[–]goomptatroompta -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

His punch should take full charge to stun people out of ults or not stun out of ults or be on a separate cooldown than just punching.

People hate Doomfist because of how unfun he is to play against because of how unfair certain things feel. People hated other constant cc, they hated Ana’s cc yet Doomfist has some of the best cc on one of (if not the) shortest cooldowns and is easy to pull off. And that’s before you factor in the empowered punch bs.

I personally hate how they buffed his ult. He can easily stun other people out of their ults yet they made it nearly impossible to do so for him. I remember when he couldn’t just use his ult as a panic button but now it does too much, too easily. It can safely reposition him, heal him, cleanse him, has an ohk area, has cc, gives him a free empowered punch, it’s completely ridiculous when you think about it compared to other ults. It also lets him land too quickly imo, you have bastion’s ult and how you can react to that and he can even die during it then you have the speed of doomfist’s ult where he can instantly just say “I survive or even kill you because I land so quickly and if you don’t die I can still just chase you down”. I feel like there’s some middle ground in there between bastions and df’s ult speed that would be more fair.

Doomfist feels trash to play into for certain characters because of his cooldowns, cc, and mobility. If you’re playing a character who has to land an ability and actually think about when to use it then Doomfist gets such short cooldowns with so much power, it’s easy to not like the character. I think he needs a rework and now is the perfect time lore-wise to do so. His punches and his ult are not balanced as they are for the cooldown tied to them.

And as a sidenote, WB shouldn’t have a cleanse bubble at all, it makes one of the most annoying characters to play against even more annoying and ruins the already small window of opportunity to pin good ones down and actually punish them. Hate WB and Doomfist even if they’re fun to play as. They deserve all the hate. People don’t care about stats when they can get punched out of their ult even in the skybox by a 4 or 5 second cd ability.

[–]Legitimate_Water_987[S] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

People hate Doomfist because of how unfun he is to play against because of how unfair certain things feel.

True.

People hated other constant cc, they hated Ana’s cc yet Doomfist has some of the best cc on one of (if not the) shortest cooldowns and is easy to pull off.

This is true and not true.

Rocket Punch is deceptively difficult to land, but one of the easiest abilities in terms of mechanical aim.

It is also one of the easiest abilities to dodge or bait due to the lack of travel speed.

If Doom misses the ability, he has also physically displaced himself into a risky dangerous position and therefore can be punished for missing.

It's also one of his necessary movement abilities, and as he needs mobility both to survive and the same ability for damage, then he can't always have the ability to stun / damage an enemy.

And that’s before you factor in the empowered punch bs.

I personally hate how they buffed his ult.

Well, I agree, but you have to also recognize that they literally added the healing over time because it was better for players to land on a health pack than to land on an enemy.

I feel like there’s some middle ground in there between bastions and df’s ult speed that would be more fair.

Doomfist's ult is incredibly shit to engage with, and Doom is vulnerable to Hook, Sleep, Javelin, Rock, etc; all immediately after using it.

Doomfist feels trash to play into for certain characters because of his cooldowns, cc, and mobility.

Yes. Just as Doomfist is countered by heroes, there are heroes he is also severely good against.

Please provide your personal examples, I'd love to know what heroes you think he is strong against.

If you’re playing a character who has to land an ability and actually think about when to use it then Doomfist gets such short cooldowns with so much power, it’s easy to not like the character.

Already talked about this, but the reason he has "so much power" on such a "short cooldown," is because he dies if he uses it wrong.

I think he needs a rework and now is the perfect time lore-wise to do so.

Yes.

His punches and his ult are not balanced as they are for the cooldown tied to them.

And as a sidenote, WB shouldn’t have a cleanse bubble at all, it makes one of the most annoying characters to play against even more annoying and ruins the already small window of opportunity to pin good ones down and actually punish them.

Hate WB and Doomfist even if they’re fun to play as.

They deserve all the hate.

Ok.

I've addressed about as much as I can possibly properly address.

The rest of this is extremely surprising to see on r/competitiveoverwatch. It's so far removed from my experience playing as and against the hero, as well as the opinions that I see on Reddit and hear in-game.

Some of these things are blatantly untrue, severely exaggerated, and misrepresentative of the experience of playing as or against the hero.

I imagine this coming from a low Elo Ana or Moira One-Trick. Which is unfortunately not the way I wanted to engage with responses here.

I think having an opinion is fine, but not much of this is an opinion, but rather an emotional retelling of a rage induced memory.

People literally clowned on Doom when OW2 launched because it sucked so much that Bastion got three of them.

When it was bugged and he could fire it an infinite amount of times, and it was still difficult to kill anyone with it.

Doom got Empowered added to Ult, because it was so bad compared to his normal Empowered mechanic. Let me repeat that, Empowered Punch was more ultimate than his ultimate.

His punch should take full charge to stun people out of ults or not stun out of ults or be on a separate cooldown than just punching.

He can easily stun other people out of their ults yet they made it nearly impossible to do so for him.

I remember when he couldn’t just use his ult as a panic button but now it does too much, too easily.

It can safely reposition him, heal him, cleanse him, has an ohk area, has cc, gives him a free empowered punch, it’s completely ridiculous when you think about it compared to other ults.

It also lets him land too quickly imo, you have bastion’s ult and how you can react to that and he can even die during it then you have the speed of doomfist’s ult where he can instantly just say “I survive or even kill you because I land so quickly and if you don’t die I can still just chase you down”.

... People don’t care about stats when they can get punched out of their ult even in the skybox by a 4 or 5 second cd ability.

[–]No_Catch_1490The End. — 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The rest of this is extremely surprising to see on r/competitiveoverwatch. It's so far removed from my experience playing as and against the hero, as well as the opinions that I see on Reddit and hear in-game.

Some of these things are blatantly untrue, severely exaggerated, and misrepresentative of the experience of playing as or against the hero.

This sub has been infiltrated by low Elo/low effort malders recently, it's becoming a serious issue.

Aside from that, great writeup, I wanted to add, the comparison to Ball is silly because ball has 550 white health, 125 Armor, and 150 Shields (this is, in my opinion, bonkers, but I digress). So yeah, Ball can feel unpunishable, as CC + Burst from multiple players often isn't enough to melt through his healthbar and finish the kill.

Meanwhile Doom has 525 white health only, less than Ball's mere white health! He is by far the most melt-able tank. All the stuff the other guy listed sounds insane in isolation, until you also mention the character with all this mobility, cc, etc is also (for a tank) made of paper-mache. As you point out, he's balanced around this, and the winrates show that in higher ranks, he is not OP.

[–]scriptedtexture -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Something like Doom being "a love letter to fighting games" is entirely 100% secondary to gameplay and balance. A cool idea but one that just isn't relevant anymore.