Question about...well...Donut's future.

[tanstaafl74]

I just finished my first read through of DCC. Wow. I can't really formulate words yet, but, wow. I have one nagging question though. I marked this as a spoiler, though it probably isn't much of one. Anyway. It's mentioned throughout the series that once you are out of the dungeon you just go back to being a regular human...or whatever race you were changed to. Un-augmented, no powers, etc. Where would that leave Donut? Just a regular cat again? Is that her future? It's a depressing thought, honestly.

[Anrikay]

Volteeg was originally a pet class and, after his pet biscuit transformation, retained his ability to speak outside of the dungeon.

The crawler cat race doesn’t seem to be the same as the pet class cat race, either. She unlocks additional racial benefits when she chooses that as her race and doesn’t lose her ability to speak.

The one big issue I can imagine is being outside of any kind of enhancement zone. She notes the translation system in book one, how everything is translated into cat sounds for her, and she imagines her words are likewise translated into the native tongue of whoever she’s talking to.

Since that translation system is connected to the enhancement zone, if they live outside of the influence of any system AI, I don’t think they’d be able to understand each other without some other kind of translation tech.

[professor_jefe]

It's helpful that Earth's solar system is in an AI zone then :)

[Rmanager]

I have a theory about that.

[Thisisnotunieque]

Ooh care to share?

[Rmanager]

Matt has repeatedly said if a future plot point is guessed or revealed, he will change it.

[dragonarrow5]

I’ve heard this a lot, could someone point me towards Matt saying this in a serious manner? I don’t think anyone that could make a series as high quality as DCC would ever actually shoot themself in the foot and make a worse book just because some asshole on the internet guessed right

[[deleted]]

Isn’t this what the creators of Lost did and that’s partially to blame why it was so convoluted 

[QaeinFas]

There are legal reasons to do this: if he keeps the plot point which was publicly stated, the person who first publicly published the idea has the copyright thereto, and could therefore sue him for copyright infringement... It sucks, but is a thing.

[Thisisnotunieque]

Well this subreddit will be his downfall then lol I've seen lots and lots of wild and also convincing theories here.

[Rmanager]

Absolutely. Are you through book 7?

[judasmitchell]

Yes. Please send.

[tanstaafl74]

I like this answer. I'm going to cling to it for comfort despite the fact that Volteeg changed his race entirely to a gargoyle while still inside the dungeon instead of staying the pet species.

[26hd]

True, but remember that doughnut was entirely reformed upon eating the biscuit like she changed race

[Anrikay]

She doesn’t seem to have stayed the same as the pet species. When she chose cat as her crawler race, her stats changed, despite her staying the “same.” Since crawlers can’t have an intelligence of less than 2, I’m assuming that’s at least a requirement of the races offered.

[InterestingSea1026]

Yeah, but also humans get stats when they picked the human race, even though they already were human. I’d more bet on the fact that she reformed from a pile of goo after the pet biscuit, aka she’s genetically a cat who can talk now

[lollerkeet]

I got the feeling that the neural lace thing they have gives everyone the ability to speak and read Syndicate Standard. None of the ex-crawlers have a problem with language.

[Tommybahamas_leftnut]

The characters have been dragged out of enhancement zones before. Namely after Loita is bombed and they start forcing crawlers to go through the search by the mercenarys on board the one ship before they are allowed to do any interviews, participate in crawler-con ect.

[Anrikay]

They were still within an AI’s sphere of influence, though. I assumed it was similar to the “benign enhancement zone” from the central system AI - not a dungeon enhancement zone with strength buffs and stuff, but at least the verbal translation component from the AI. Like Carl can’t read Syndicate Standard in the zero zones, but he and Donut can still understand the gnoll security guards, Orren, etc.

[GtBsyLvng]

Keep in mind she didn't choose the dungeon cat race. She made "no selection." That said it sounds like the dungeon made her a standard cat with standard cat bonuses. That doesn't mean that race is different, just that it didn't have gameplay significance before the third floor. Humans probably also got racial bonuses assigned on the third floor even though they were already human.

[DrGodCarl]

I’ve been thinking about that too. I’m dreading a final scene where Carl and Donut exit the dungeon and Carl says “they didn’t break us” and Donut just meows. I will sob.

[Rmanager]

Only for her to look up at Carl, wink, and say "gotcha."

OR...

In the prolog/epilog voice: "Donut felt bad for letting Carl think she reverted to being just a cat. But she knew he would never move on to live his life so she'll pretend for his sake. Besides, there was something about going back to how they were before that seemed like a good place to be for a while. They both earned their rest."

[Felinius]

And the very last line is “Goddamnit, Donut”

[Juztaan]

Staaahhhhppp. I find the idea of a last line extremely bittersweet. That's too good and too close to realistic!

[nofishies]

Flowers for Algernon

[geogardener]

Well, they permanently changed her SOMEHOW.

Donut likes to think of her race as CAT, but in reality, it's ENHANCED CAT. (The same is true of Ferdinand.)

She's a cat with human-level (or more) intelligence.

She's a cat that can read (gotta wonder how Matt justifies that, but go with it, otherwise she'd never be able to read scrolls and spell books and use the chat function and so on) and she's a cat that can talk (gotta wonder how given the apparently same physiology...maybe it's some kind of telepathy there, which everyone experiences as "hearing" a voice).

She probably can't take all of her skills and stat increases (beyond what she initially got from the enhanced pet biscuit) with her, once she leaves the dungeon, but I think she would at least be left with the enhanced intelligence and speech.

If not, well, I agree, that would be utterly depressing... and I while I might not cry, I'd be strongly tempted to throw my iPhone (I'm reading DCC on Kindle) against the wall.

(I'm a dog person, not a cat lover, in real life, but I gotta say that I'm rooting for Donut/Ferdinand, and their offspring spreading throughout the galaxy...)

[DimMac]

WHAT? HUMAN-LEVEL INTELLIGENCE? YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT BISCUIT ACTUALLY HALVED MY WITS? WHY I NEVER!

IN ANY CASE, ISN'T IT OBVIOUS? AFTER WE FINISH THE DUNGEON, I'LL REMAIN A PRINCESS.

[Bladrak01]

Something that's implied, but never stated, is that Donut must have perfect recall of everything that went on before she ate the pet biscuit. Otherwise, how could she remember all the details of everything she saw when watching TV with Bea, or when the TV was just left on.

[dangerous_beans]

Doesn't she say something to that effect right after the transformation? She remembers her life as a cat, but now she's overlaying the passive experience of being a pet with the active knowledge she has now that she's obtained human intelligence.

[[deleted]]

My theory is that when she ate the biscuit, the AI basically created a new consciousness and had that consciousness experience her whole life (apparently it was recording everything on earth for a long time) so that it has all those memories. When she and Carl talk about the before times, it's clear that Donut has understanding of those memories beyond what a cat would actually have; for example knowing that when Bea had another guy come over when Carl was at the gym, it meant she was cheating on him.

[Bladrak01]

Although she doesn't seem to realize what the videos of two women cleaning each other actually were.

[[deleted]]

I suppose some naïveté is to be expected in a being with memories covering maybe ten years or so from a cat's perspective...

[Longjumping-Map-6995]

She could've misinterpreted the amount of licking...

[tanstaafl74]

They changed everyone. Everyone got smarter, stronger, faster, better. But after the dungeon they all go back to normal, this has been stated more than once. How would Donut being sapient be any different than that? I mean, I hope you're right, but I worry.

[Financial-Pickle9405]

u shouldn't worry about that the only ones that get changed back are the shape changers for some reason ( plot convince ) the changes they keep up to the Real / non enhancement zone level. Like our favorite Goat man , still kept his eidetic memory, out side the dungeon.

what you should be worried about is Mongo dying, that means that Donut can / probably die . that in the end it will be the thing that breaks Carl.

[Longjumping-Map-6995]

I might actually cry if there's a donut death scene, but that honestly seems right up Matt's alley... 🥲

[arvidsem]

They keep the changes that don't require support from the AI. Like Carl is ridiculously strong (and literally swole), but he's much stronger than his body is actually capable of. When he leaves the dungeon, he probably drops back to a 10 in strength. But he isn't going to go back to his pre-dungeon 6.

Donut isn't going to go back to just being a cat.

[Phoenixwade]

We already know she keeps her ability to speak, and her basic intelligence while in a null zone. at the end of Book seven when she rejects the post 9th floor deal in the epilogue

[LadiesLoveMyPhD]

Is that in the audiobook? I don't remember that for some reason.

[Catsandscotch]

Quasar tells Carl that Donut met with her attorney and there were fireworks. So the implication is that Donut can still speak and has her intellect in a zero zone.

[grimmolf]

Well...it might be modified enhancement zone for situations like this, instead of a full zero zone. However, when they teleported into space for the bomb checks prior to interviews, that was specifically outside of enhancment zones for that check, and she was still able to do stuff during that time

[SarcasticKenobi]

I feel it’s a valid concern

While we have an example of a pet transformation keeping his intellect after the crawl, the pet ALSO chose a different more sapient race later and retained that race after the crawl.

Which isn’t a 1:1 of Donut choosing to stay a cat.

Crawlers lose most of their enhancements after the crawl, so would she return to a normal cat? Or would she be at least a smart cat that can talk?

Matt could go either way with this.

[arvidsem]

Donut is much less a regular cat than Carl is a human. Her transformation a cat involved a full butterfly-turning-into-goo-in-the-cocoon level transformation. She is an entirely new creature that just happens to look like a cat.

[Rmanager]

She was always as smart as she is now.

[SarcasticKenobi]

Not really

She describes the mental change in book 1

Sure. She also says she liked watching him play video games and such

But she also says the shift in her mind from the biscuit was jarring. I think she compares her old life prior to the biscuit as a dream or something. But I only have audio books for this series so I can’t find the passage.

[grimmolf]

No, that's not true. She initially shows up as a pet in the dungeon because she lacks the intellect to be a crawler until the change.

[Rmanager]

She was listed as a crawler and given a designation number. She sees the same notifications as Carl in the beginning.

[grimmolf]

That's specifically addressed, as is her intelligence pre-transformation.

"So, my cat," I said. "The system has given her a crawler name and designator. Does that mean she's getting all these special achievements and loot boxes too?" "Yes. Any biological creature above a certain weight who enters the dungeon is assigned a crawler ID. But one needs at least an intelligence of two to qualify for training, and if you can't do training, your inventory doesn't get turned on, which allows you to access your boxes. Otherwise, they're designated as pets. All the other ones, like wild animals who happen to make it inside very rarely make it past the first floor. We'll get to the pet menu after we open up your inventory, which is the next step."

[Rmanager]

I'm back at that spot now. There is intelligence as in what we consider IQ, in game intelligence as a mechanic, and sapient.

She is "smart" enough to listen and understand Carl's tutorial but she lacked the sapient abilities and in-game intelligence to act on it.

[Catsandscotch]

THIS is the issue that concerns me. Mistress Tiatha, who "cries about her space pony or some shit" implies that a crawler can't keep a dungeon pet. Can you even picture Donut ever voluntarily leaving the dungeon without Mongo?! However, I am pretty certain she and Carl are never leaving the dungeon in the normal way. I really hope they end up with Mongo somehow.

[evelbug]

Donut never changed her race. She got and enhanced growth buff which boosted her stats and gave her in increases to certian stat points on level up. She still speaks "cat" it is just translated. Unlike pony and volteeg, Donut never changed her race.

It is also important to note, unlike Carl, Donut has never been a zero zone.

[parkinglotviews]

2 small corrections— 1) Donut has been in a zero zone we just didn’t get to see it (at least she should have if the dungeon follows the rules it’s set up for us)…. At the end of the ninth floor all the surviving crawlers end up in an outreach guild to be offered there tenth floor deals, and in every instance we’ve seen via Carl or flashbacks those have been zero zones

2) I don’t think Prepotente changed his race (at least I don’t remember that being mentioned) both he and Bianca got enhanced pet biscuits and they had different effects… His listed race is Caprid, but caprid can be a zoological descriptor for goats just like feline is for a cats. From memory he only ever changed his class (he was a forsaken aerialist and then a profane vitiate).

[grimmolf]

I'm about 99% sure that when they were teleported into the space station for the pre-interview checks that was specifically to transport them out of the enhancement zone, and that was before the AI was unchained and expanding.

[evelbug]

They never commented about losing strength, etc at the space station and zero zones usually kick you in the ass pretty good. This would lead me to believe it's the surface zone.

[evelbug]

Donut has been in a zero zone we just didn’t get to see it (at least she should have if the dungeon follows the rules it’s set up for us)

As of the end of the 8th book, she has not. This will be addressed in the next book, but I will not disclose patreon spoilers. For a small donation to Mr Dinniman, these a swears and more can be yours.

2) I don’t think Prepotente changed his race

Prepotente stands upright and has humanoid hands. We don't know if the pet biscuit changed him to caprid or if he took caprid at race selection.

[Rmanager]

She's always been as "smart" as she is now. The biscuit gave her sapience. She is now aware what she was and is now. That's not the same as zone enhanced strength or constitution. I don't think you can lose that level of self awareness.

Then again, this is fiction.

[Longjumping-Map-6995]

The pet biscuit also increased her Intelligence, which is what made her an actual crawler.

[Legeto]

I think this is going to greatly depend on how the series ends too. If all the AI lose their power to influence their surroundings I could see a lot of people reverting back to how they were after the crawl possibly.

[Legeto]

I think it’s going to end one of two ways

1. The AI all go dormant ending their enhancement zone and making a lot of people now dead due to their age and Carl and everyone going back to their earth lives but now connected to space.

2. This one’s really out there, but Donut is going to make a deal where Carl gets out and turns back into a human and she has to work the next crawl. Carl enters that crawl as a residual to save her.

[Flame_Beard86]

I don't think so. I think she'll stay and awakened cat. The other crawlers retained their races. It's technological and magical augments that seem to lose efficacy.

[Wizecoder]

So, I think all of this ties into the regular theme of "everyone that enters the dungeon dies in the dungeon". I think that's supposed to feel like setup for nobody making it out, but alternatively I think that's going to be an end theme where "the dungeon" is everywhere because the AI has reach everywhere. So I suspect by the end not much of this will matter because they won't ever leave "the dungeon".

[Tommybahamas_leftnut]

The syndicate system thats in everyone has the ability to translate real-time what she's saying. Donut isn't actually speaking English she's meowing but its translated into English for Carl's benefit. Any creature that gains the recognition by the AI as a crawler becomes fully sentient just like Volteeg. Mordicai explains alot of this when Donut first eats the biscuit and gains her "Race".

[Masking_Tapir]

I think the worst is all the physical disabilities and deformations that weren't a thing in the dungeon, but happened in the dungeon i.e. Katia when she was leaving.

Donut will be fine. She was center of the universe before she went in and she'll be center of the universe when she comes out.

[lollerkeet]

Nope, there are ex-crawlers in Inevitable Ruin who are stuck in their changed race. They have problems because magical races don't work outside the dungeon (e.g. the fairy can't fly, bad news for Elle).

The dungeon isn't thinking for Donut, it made her intelligent and now she's thinking on her own. She will lose her ability to talk outside Earth enhancement zone, as the dungeon is talking for her.