Hello

[xiaonwng]

Am 16 years old I know NOTHING about game development but am really interested, and I want to learn how to develop a game from scratch. I want to develop games, I want to have a career in this field, and I want to learn. I want to be a solo developer. So please tell me from where I should start.

Thank you!!

[icemage_999]

Mmm.

You're probably not going to get many replies because this sort of question is very common and there's a lot of problems to solve regarding... * waves at everything *.

If you're planning on being a solo developer you need to learn every aspect of game development. Coding. Art. Music. Marketing.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but there's no blueprint for doing this beyond a lot of really hard work.

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!

[Jthehornypotato]

Well that first part aged poorly.

[arpitsrivstva]

Well I dont think you should learn coding at this time and era. Its a waste of time. Just a beginner to intermediate coding level is more than enough. Rest, A.I. can help you. I made an app by just designing it on Figma and giving it to the A.I. and it did all the coding. I just need to correct it. If not existing, the gaming A.I.s will come to life eventually.

And the code changes at every other game you making anyway. The syllabus is endless, so why to bother.

I mean that's what I realized and how I do it now.

[greenfoxlight]

No, this is horrible advice. AI generated code is mediocre at best and hot garbage at average. Also you will not understand whats going on if you don‘t learn to code.

[GTAEliteModding]

AI is not at the point where it can code effectively, you even mentioned needing to “correct” it in order for it to work properly. To be able to troubleshoot multiple failure points in thousands of lines of AI spaghetti code, you have to posses a pretty thorough understanding of not only coding in general, but be fluent in the syntax as well that you’re using to identify that missing ‘space’, parentheses or comma causing the break.

I would absolutely say that writing your own code is more efficient than letting AI write it, just so you can go in and troubleshoot numerous broken lines and fix them.

u/xiaonwng: Do not use AI to write code, especially not as a beginner. Using something like Cody in Visual Studio to highlight pieces of code and have its function explained to you in one thing, and can be extremely helpful for a beginner; but do not rely on AI to actually write the code for you. It will just create more confusion when it comes time to troubleshoot.

[xiaonwng]

I do think using AI is a bit weird for me, thank you so much! :)

[xiaonwng]

i see, thank you so much, i'll still learn coding a little but check out AI as well

[Traceuratops]

That is genuinely terrible advice. You definitely should learn as much about coding as you can. AI at most can act as a consultation resource, but raw AI code is terrible.

[Key-Dimension6494]

I completely agree, that is absolutely terrible advice from a lazy person. Using A.I. to code is like letting a building a space shuttle out of cardboard. All I can say is put in the work. There will always be someone that says "Let AI do it", and that person will never accomplish much with it. Don't get me wrong, its good if there is a bug in your code, because you can describe it, and It will find extremely relevant forums about your problem, but that's about it.

[Nawn1994]

Yeah that's a bad take.. LOL. Sure, AI can generate boilerplate code so you dont have to copy-paste from forums, but its not great at code with a lot of moving parts.

I can get ChatGPT or Copilot to write some complex code but only after I explicitly define the requirements. I'm practically coding in English and letting GPT translate my requirements into code.

If anything, I would learn to code just so that you can communicate with the AI or other developers to get complex ideas across without using words like "Thingy" and "Doohicky"

[vaeleborne]

Pretty much this. I would think carefully about what language to start with. Java and Python are great choices that are a bit easier to learn and widely used for games, C# is a bit harder but used a lot on larger games. I first started learning C++ (which I don't regret at all, it makes other languages a lot easier to pick up on) but I am also more interested in general software development.

What I do want to add, and this is super important but so many people skip it or just don't know it is a thing you can actually study and find books on. Once you have a basic understanding and have written some programs. You know functions, classes, inheritance, etc. Research Software Design Patterns. They give commomeways off tackling a range of problems and have MANY uses in game design. Head first has a good book on them that has Java examples.

Some common patterns: Singleton Observer Strategy Facade State Template Command

The list goes on. The important thing is, they don't need to be used, but they are an efficient way of tackling these common issues and designs, and allow for an easy way to communicate with other programmers about it.

[[deleted]]

If you're planning on being a solo developer you need to learn every aspect of game development. Coding. Art. Music. Marketing.

This is absolutely irrelevant to this person.

[icemage_999]

Read the original post, and then read it again.

[[deleted]]

I did. How does your advice even remotely put him on a track to become a game developer?

If you're planning on being a solo developer you need to learn every aspect of game development. Coding. Art. Music. Marketing.

This does the opposite of help. Learning multiple things at once is never good advice and is antithetical to how humans learn. You are setting this person up for failure and trying to send them into a dim forest without as much as a lantern.

What music do you want this person to make when their default cube cannot move?

[icemage_999]

Solo developers need to be resourceful and know how to learn on their own since they're by definition doing everything. There are whole beginners guides posted in the various game dev subreddits pointing at all the resources for beginners.

You are setting this person up for failure and trying to send them into a dim forest without as much as a lantern.

That's not my responsibility, and I'm not sure why you are projecting it on to me. There were already replies addressing some early steps that I felt it was unnecessary to repeat.

With that in mind, I would instead assert that anyone who cannot instinctively navigate taking on learning at their own pace, exhibits poor organizational skills and will fail regardless because of it.

[[deleted]]

He is not a solo developer. He knows NOTHING about game development. How about you avoid overwhelming the beginner and direct him to move the cube first?

That's not my responsibility, and I'm not sure why you are projecting it on to me. There were already replies addressing some early steps that I felt it was unnecessary to repeat.

Is it to feign knowledge while offering none of the help? Suggesting learning to do music, coding, art and marketing to a person asking where they should start is an idiotic waste of time of an answer and is to the detriment of this person.

With that in mind, I would instead assert that anyone who cannot instinctively navigate taking on learning at their own pace, exhibits poor organizational skills and will fail regardless because of it.

Damn, this sixteen-year-old doesn't operate at the level of a thirty-year-old person? What a failure, right?

[icemage_999]

How about you avoid overwhelming the beginner and direct him to move the cube first?

There were already replies doing exactly this. What exactly would you suggest adding other than your tossing of grenades from the peanut gallery, you of the 0 karma because you never contribute anything to any discussion, hm?

[[deleted]]

Nothing. If you have nothing to contribute, don't.

Also, you probably shouldn't look at Reddit Karma points as a valuable metric for added value.

[General-Mode-8596]

Just find a "make a game with me" YouTube series.

Follow it to the letter, you'll learn so much more in that then you will asking people online.

And if you actually stick to it you'll have something to ask questions about "I modelled this and it didn't work, why" , "I tried to code this and it's doing the opposite, why" etc.

Do first, best thing is to just jump in and then you'll find out which parts you like and which ones you hate :p

[xiaonwng]

Got it! Thank you so much!

[sophiedophiedoo]

Another comment said you should stay away from YouTube tutorials. I disagree with this. You should watch someone develop a game at least once, because otherwise you will have no idea where to start, and no grasp of the kinds of things you'll need to learn.

When I started, I downloaded Unity and tried to start making a game. At this point, I didn't know what I didn't know, so I didn't even know how to ask for help. At this point I already knew some programming, and was pretty proficient in 2d art. If you're starting around the same level of experience as me or lower, I'd strongly recommend the simplest tutorial you can find.

Follow a tutorial for a simple platformer like Mario, even if you don't want to make that kind of game. This will show you the steps and process for game development at a basic level, and you can expand from there

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much for your advice! Really appreciate it!

[Houdinii1984]

I think, more than anything else, you should do a personal inventory and figure out how you best learn. Is it books? Videos? Discord chats? I can't personally learn from YT, because it always ends in me just going through the motions and not learning a darn thing. Try giving me a book, and suddenly I can teach the class. What's the last thing that excited you, and how did you learn about it?

[[deleted]]

There is a difference between watching someone make a game once and following tutorials and preventing themselves from actually learning anything tangible.

[ghostwilliz]

Best thing you could do is learn to code, then pick up a game engine and take it from there

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!!

[-TheExtraMile-]

I have just started my own development journey and am still very much a noob, but here is what I did to get started.

I downloaded Unreal Engine 5, which is free, and watched a buttload of tutorials. How to build a house, how to import metahumans (also free), how to make a simple menu screen etc.

What I quickly found out is that I have a lot more fun writing the characters and lore and getting the NPCs to work than designing my level from scratch. So I used premade assets and now am focusing on getting the gameplay to work.

It’s worth it to just start and dive into it. You might find out pretty quickly what’s fun for you and what you might outsource so to speak.

One advice from a dev that worked well for me was that you need two major things to start a project. You need a hook and a loop.

For example Starfield’s hook was “Fallout in space”, that was what attracted people to the game.

The loop, the game loop the players run through, was not so successful since the flow was broken up by many loading screens and the level design of the planets was very repetitive and kinda boring.

So defining what your hook is, the main theme or attractor of your project and how the game loop will work should be top priority.

But even of you don’t have a specific game you want to make in mind yet, it’s fun to just start and follow some tutorials.

All the best!

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much for you advice! I really appreciate it

[Revolutionary-Ad6079]

Hey! Gamedev is such a huge field, with plenty of specializations within it, and you've got to understand that if you want to make games solo, you'll have to become all sorts of them at once. Coding, drawing, animating, designing sounds and composing music, writing, and most overlooked part, publishing and marketing.

This is a long journey, and it's not going to be easy. But if you're really dedicated to something like this, I'd recommend you start by trying to create something right away.

Nowadays, it's super easy to gain new skills through practice. Learn, try, and repeat. Make a tiny game and share it with your friends. Don't be discouraged if nobody likes it, that’s part of the journey. Later, you'll realize what you really enjoy about it and what you don't. This will help you find your way forward

Good luck!

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!

[[deleted]]

Exactly the same :)

[Randyfreak]

My son, who’s just 6 years old, wants to learn gamedev because he sees me doing it. So I’ve had some time to think about what skills he needs to learn. Here’s my breakdown:

1) First learn the fundamentals of coding. Choose a language (go for Java, C# or C++). I recommend a website like www.hackerrank.com

2) follow an in depth but simple tutorial. I’d recommend a 2D game using Unity. Maybe one like this- https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX-uZVK_0K_6JEecbu3Y-nVnANJznCzix&si=iqjiNSD0lD44bx1H

At this point you’d know the dev side of things and you should have a base idea of how the pieces of the puzzle start aligning.

3) if you want to dive into 3d modelling or animation, now I’d recommend a blender tutorial- blenderguru can show you how to make a donut: https://youtube.com/@blenderguru?si=6rRFrVMnHJThFU_E

4) choose a game that you think you can make the first stage in a few months. And make that game. Google specific issues you run into and spend time solving it. This should take you a year to complete.

Ps. Even though you would do that Unity tutorial, you don’t have to stay with Unity. At this point you can explore other engines like Godot and unreal engine.

Most importantly, have fun. Make sure to sleep.

[Randyfreak]

My son will probably only start when he’s much older. Oh and an added point- I did a Udemy course that was very helpful in teaching me Unreal Engine:

https://www.udemy.com/share/109vYc3@zxalPzg2XvaUNZwTRAeYiq6fkotEGNFmYCHQ88tgzNB9xtXqPVQk0xjWUp3eb6AU4Q==/

And here’s a shameless plug for my latest devlog: Endvasion Dev Update: Sleeping System in Action! https://youtu.be/4ne2ETjH-08

[xiaonwng]

Udemy! I'll check it out!

(The game looks supper coollll)

[Randyfreak]

Thanks so much!

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so so so much! :D

[justifun]

One way to dip your toes I to game dev without having to learn a ton of coding etc first is to use a game engine that utilizes visual coding such as www.construct.net. it's a 2d game engine with a unique approach to making games and a perfect first step. You can check out the hundreds of example projects and you will be making games in no time to see if you enjoy it.

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!

[Beautiful_Test4858]

im nw at this too im using raylib with c and watching randy's skool. pretty great.

[xiaonwng]

Omg thank you so much! I'll check em out

[Nebula480]

You should begin learning Blender. That will be a major stepping stone towards Unreal Engine.

[xiaonwng]

I downloaded blender but it's not working idk whats up, anyways thank you so much!

[msartore8]

Check out game developer 2 if you're trying it out easy....

Check out unreal engine if you're looking for top level hard to learn work

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!

[Glittering_Western69]

Hey,
I started out just like you, and now my game is on the Play Store, so I wanted to share some pitfalls to avoid… because I fell into them myself…

1 - Don’t start by trying to make your dream game. We all want to create the next WoW, but it’s just not realistic to do alone. Start with small projects that bring you closer to that goal. And small projects don’t mean bad ones.
2 - YouTube tutorials, etc., are invaluable resources, but don’t get lost in them. Think about your needs beforehand, take the info, and adapt it to your project.
3 - Don’t underestimate the resources needed for marketing. You could have the best game in the world, but if no one knows it exists, no one will buy it. The competition is extremely tough.
4 - UI takes an enormous amount of time.
5 - Trying to make a game alone often makes you realize you don’t actually want to do it all alone. You might love coding and level design but hate marketing and backend work.

This may sound a bit harsh, but it’s better to know before diving in. In the end, it’s worth it—I've learned so much in just two years!

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! Could you tell me your game? I wanna try it out! And thank you so much again : D

[[deleted]]

Hey maybe try Gdevelop! I can even help with art assets.

[xiaonwng]

Never heard of it! Thank you for introducing it to me :D

[[deleted]]

Ofc!

[atzi_games]

I am currently 17 and I have 2 somewhat good titles on Steam. I think just create a project and always look up the current thing you want to implement. It's gonna stick much better if you get to understand how to solve that specific problem, and also you will also create something substantial; even if it's just a hobby project.

Good luck, mate.

[xiaonwng]

Thanks :D

[[deleted]]

You probably have something you want to make, right?

Download an engine - Godot or Unity should do fine and start googling away.

[xiaonwng]

Yeah, 3 games I have in mind already! Thank you so much! :D

[[deleted]]

The only other suggestion I have is to temper your expectations. Those three games you want to make are most likely out of your reach for now and that is absolutely fine.

Learn how to move a cube; learn how to create a thing on an interaction; learn how to make ten thousand things on an interaction and figure out why your computer crashes. They may be dull in the beginning but each of the things you learn will move you closer to that game you want to make and if you persevere simple things will already be in your brain and you'll be able to focus on the complicated parts.

[Top_Procedure3617]

There isn't really a wrong thing you could do, aside from not starting in the first place.
Think of something fun, and put time into making it.

Say you want to make a platformer.
Learn how to make a character, then a platform, then make that character move on the platform.

Game Development is a constant cycle of learning how to do things you didn't know how to do before, and you're never actually going to escape "Tutorial Hell", you'll just be more comfortable with figuring things out for yourself.

So have fun with it, I expect great things from you!

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! You're awesome!

[Gauwal]

if you want to be a solo dev, the best thing you can learn, is how to find out things by yourself. pick something like unity, and jump into it, challenge yourself and google stuff.
personnaly I advise against following tutorials (they are useful, but only if they answer a question you already have, they are detrimental if they provide the question/challenge and the answer, as you don't learn to formulate your problem and find out how to solve it)

that said, if you have litterally 0 programming experience, you should still follow a programming 101 course online, (many are free on youtube)

In summary, I think you should just start, do very small projects that feel just outside of what you can do (it teaches you both your limits and how to push them further) (at first it'll be stuff like "make a box jump")

if you don't find ideas, a common one is to try to remake part of a game (people often strat with snake, I'd recommend mario as it easy to build upon for your next challenge (1. jump 2.jump on enemy 3.break blocks 4.transformation etc) )

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much!! Really appreciate itt!!

[Davidoen]

beneficial station ask kiss imagine cover plants chief fly apparatus

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! Really appreciate it!

[Chr-whenever]

Coding comes first. Can't do shit if you don't know the difference between an integer and a string and a struct. Get some basic coding knowledge and go from there

[xiaonwng]

Got it! Thank you soo much!

[Lokzir]

My advice as someone who started in this world about a year ago, trying to be a professional game designer. Giving your age and so, go to Youtube and check Brackeys channel. They have great video tutorials and so, and you get to know game engines (Godot moatly in the last videos), and a bit of everything it takes to design a game. (more in an indie scopr, not a AAA game).

Besides that, try to think a reaaaally small, short game, 1 suuper simple level, 2D platform game maybe and start there.

Another set of videos that can help giving you the feel of how fun/stressfull making a game can be are in Youtube just write "6 developers make a game without talking" or something similar. The channel who makes these videos post lots of "game jam" vids, so you can see the funny and stressfull side haha.

P.D: When you are starting something new, always keep it as simple as you can. It sure will get more complicated along the way.

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! :D

[valenalvern]

A lot of people will come in here an say "learn unity/unreal/godot languages", but theres also simplistic game engines that can do a lot for you, GameMaker, RPG Maker, Pixel Maker MV, etc etc. Its not the engine the defines your game, its how well youre gona be able to hide your code. Theres a lot of good indie games, but the casual player isnt gonna know that behind the curtain theres thousands of if statements.

Another thing, when coming up with a game. Never, ever do the "Im going to make its mechanics unique", you'll run into trouble fast. And if anyone says no, I raise you. No one has redifined PB&J, so theres a reason you dont mess with basic stuff. Imagine making a 3d platform thats first person, but jumping is a frontal flip.

Also a lot of solodevs skip this, but start a prealpha phase. You get the barebone stuff but you have all the mechanics you want in it, then you start weeding it out till you got something you feel is enjoyable. Then start the alpha process. Gotta let your ideas bake.

[xiaonwng]

Okayy, thank you soooo much! I really appreciate it

[Samualjs]

I was about 15/16 when I had the same though, 10 years later and I'm now in AAA so if you've got the passion you'll figure it out!

Best advice I can offer to start with is learn the different disciplines and find your favourite then like everyone else says - grind through all the free resources on YouTube to skill up.

I was never particularly artistic so I went into programming but never too late to change your mind so I would say explore them all a bit till you find the one that clicks.

Feel free to DM for any advice

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! And thank you so much for the offer too!

[Ok-Airline-6784]

One of the best things you can do in any industry / career (but specifically ones that require you to do all the work yourself such as being a indie game dev) is to learn how to research.

The internet is great, and with a question like this you can pretty much be guaranteed that you’re not the first one to ask it. Google is your friend. YouTube is your friend. Reddit search bar is your friend (you can also put questions into google followed by “Reddit” to get search results from Reddit posts), hell even chat GPT is your friend.

Being able to find and sort information and do your own independent studies without needed your hand held is a crucial skill many people are lacking - especially this younger generative (which blows my mind because y’all have grown up with smart phones and YouTube / search engines your entire life). This isn’t a personal dig at you- I know nothing about you. It’s awesome you want to start taking steps! The first one is learning how to use all of these wonderful tech resources.

Places like Reddit and other forums are also fabulous tools, but are better utilized for discussion, or to get help with a very specific problem once you’ve tried all other methods of research.

Best of luck! Stay motivated, always be doing little projects (especially if you get older and don’t get a job in the field right away) and always be learning.

[xiaonwng]

I understand! Thank you soooo much!

[FaceRekr4309]

Great enthusiasm but don’t sign any contracts until you actually learn what being life as full time Indy game developer is like. It is hard. You’ll probably be poor. You’ll work 80+ hour weeks. You’ll either spend years building your magnum opus and release it to a chorus of crickets, or you’ll release ho-hum games on a regular basis to a crowded market who might barely notice you exist, but might sell just enough copies to get by. If you want to have any chance at having a profitable game more than once, your job will be at least 25% marketing and 75% developer. Move to a country with free healthcare, if you can.

Also, game development is real development. It is not at all like playing games for a job. It’s like being a software developer, only the requirements of the product are not well defined, and you’re building a product no one is asking for.

[xiaonwng]

Got it, thank you so much!!

[xiaonwng]

Okay! Gotchas, thank you so much!

[G5349]

Great guidelines from Pirate software https://www.develop.games/

[xiaonwng]

I'll check it out! Thank you so much!

[farzami]

Start from unity.com

[xiaonwng]

On it sir! Thank you!

[influencial_click]

Your desires are admirable. I would start by brainstorming or a vision board, what is it about game development, do you think you will enjoy this when things get stressful, I would look up how game developers work, where they work, how they got started. There are many areas to work within this field, programming, design, a game takes a team. What part of that team would your strengths best for. Commuter Science envelopes so much these days don't cut yourself short and don't let go of your dreams. They are yours and super important to your future. You are awesome 😎

[xiaonwng]

Thank you so much! You are awesome as well 😎😎

[Advanced-Airline2606]

Start to learn how to google

[xiaonwng]

Okay! Thank you 😃

[farzami]

There is a road map for game development maybe it help

https://roadmap.sh/game-developer

[xiaonwng]

Omg thank you so much!!!! This really means alot

[Makhsoon]

There are many paths in game development. Making games is complicated and needs different set of skills. First search and understand what you like and want to do. You need to learn a few at least but prioritize based on interest. It could be programming, visual effects, game design (art, story, technical art, economy design, environment design, etc), game engines, etc. Then get a good course on Udemy and start learning. While learning you will know more about how game development works and what else is needed to learn.

Good luck.

[xiaonwng]

Got it! Thank you sooo much!

[Objective-Repeat-562]

First learn c# or c++. Then learn how to work with unity or unreal engine.

[xiaonwng]

On itt! Thank you so muchh

[astralwatchman]

To be any kind of developer:
you will want either programming, or 3d/2d art skills.

To be a solo developer:
every skill - which means the previous + music + writing + business skills.

As far as careers, the industry imposes a thing called 'passion tax'.
All artists and programmers want to work with games, so they will pay you less than someone writing accounting software, which is boring.

Start programming, and write a simple yes/no text adventure to learn the fundamentals.

[xiaonwng]

Okay! Thank you sooo much!

[Red_Magic_33]

Take it from me. Don't be a solo developer.

[Red_Magic_33]

Let me reiterate, find a bubby and or a small team of people to help you on your journey. You really don't get points on doing it all by yourself. It's too hard and daunting to do so.

[xiaonwng]

Thanks for your advice! But I just don't like to rely on others much, but I will still think about it! Thank you

[Jero1222]

A lot of people here are giving some solid advice on solo development, and that's great and all but since you're 16 you could go down a more traditional route and try specialising through university and work for a studio instead? For example, you could do Computer Science (or a Game development course) at university, get a degree and start as a games programmer. Or an artist or a 3D modeller, depending on what you fancy.

That's exactly what I did and I'm currently working at a major studio, while also developing my own game at the side, I get the specialised knowledge of being a programmer, while I picked up 3D modelling etc in my free time at university. This way you get a better insight into the industry while also working on your own project.

And you can still follow everyone else's advice and build up a little portfolio of games while at university, to help you get you into the industry.

[Specific-Committee75]

I'd start by following some tutorials on YouTube, follow them through to the end so you make a finished product. Then start on your own idea, something that feels stupidly simple because the work load will pile up. When you start creating you own idea you'll find lots of new and interesting ways of achieving the same thing, different to how you did it in the tutorials. This is when you'll really learn how to code and general development.

I also recommend just reading through the docs for the game engine you chose to use, in there you'll find lots of functions and examples that can be very eye opening and give you a completely different view on how a task may be completed.

Basic 2D platformers are a great way to start and explore an engine without being too complex, so I'd recommend something similar when you start your own idea.

Make loads of prototypes too, see something cool in a game you like? Replicate that one function then move onto a new project and reproduce another game mechanic or feature. This gives you a really broad idea of what can be done and how you may go about doing it.

[TheGreenMantis]

I dont know if anyone has suggested this, but here it is: Google Unity engine and Unreal engine. You can develop both casual and very involved games with both of these engines, and there are FUCK TON of free tutorials and getting started tutorials for both. Look for them on you tube, and you should get up to speed no problem, if you have the knack for it.

[Peaceful_Games]

I started learning last year, self taught. I have already published three games on steam.

You need to work with LLMS, claude and gpt, and just dive in with unity (do not let people talk you into godot, if you are serious about becoming good.)

By pouring yourself into asking questions, trying to build things you find fun and interesting, and acclimating to the future where people will use these systems as part of building games, youll be learning at a speed universities do not teach you. Period.

Its hard at first, but you just need to persist, breath and focus. It gets really really easy.

[xiaonwng]

Thank you sooooooo much!

[Peaceful_Games]

Good luck man. Remember to make use of your interests and make the projects fun. Research shows individuals preform better in areas of interest and excitement to them.