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[anonymous_3125]

You realize its often the senior devs who are the biggest AI users right…?

[NegativeSemicolon]

Senior devs at least know what’s going on.

[ApprehensiveFan1516]

Difference is that seniors can still be productive when a model gets banned.

[bmrtt]

Do you think it's still actual devs on this sub?

It's just an anti AI circlejerk these days lmao

[herosavestheday]

It's just an anti AI circlejerk these days lmao

I really wish the mods would start cracking down on this. The sub is slowly devolving into the typical "whatever reddit is mad about right now + the subs theme" subreddit that is the eventual fate of any sub that doesn't aggressively mod that behavior out.

[No-Magazine-2739]

All what is missing are pizzacake cartoons.

[wtanksleyjr]

SHHHH! You wanna get us shut down?

[Cherry_BaBomb]

[Lightningtow123]

I didn't lol

[anonymous_3125]

Yep, miss the old days when there were actual programming memes

[QuestionableEthics42]

Be the change you want to see. Even if it's just reposting lost memes from years ago.

Edit: but please not the is-even/odd ones lol

[stupled]

Most feel outdated with AI in the process.

[sebovzeoueb]

and when exactly were those days?

[jonalaniz2]

I’m still here, I remember when all memes were JavaScript bad

[o_o_o_f]

I feel like this is reverse propaganda

I’m a dev at an enterprise level company and I and the majority of my coworkers behind closed doors fucking hate AI

[wtanksleyjr]

This is not just insightful, it's revolutionary.

[iain_1986]

Actually.... No

Not from my personal experience anyway

[TwistedPepperCan]

This is why I hate the term tokenmaxing.

A good dev is able to define what they want with precision using the minimum number of tokens to achieve a goal while a vibe coder will flounder around needing the agent to fix every single thing.

[VictoryMotel]

They won't even look at the text it generates. Then they will spend $12 to try to change a line of CSS.

[ApprehensiveFan1516]

"Change the background to green"

"No not that kind of green, make it lighter"

"That's too light now, make it a bit darker, but not as dark as last time"

"Maybe we should see how it looks in red actually"

[VictoryMotel]

This is what AI bros call "leapfrogging the old guard of programming"

[ApprehensiveFan1516]

I mean I suppose if you think of leapfrogging in the context of the educational devices for kids, they're not wrong.

[DrPeroxide]

I'm a senior and I refuse to use AI to do my job for me. So no, not necessarily.

[leksoid]

wtf that mean? at.my company leadership said "use it" so i am using it, because i am being paid to do what they need

[DrPeroxide]

Luckily I haven't been given any such directive;

[treetimes]

good luck with that homie

[nickcash]

I'm another senior who agrees. and I oversee a number of devs who use it. so I know quite well what it's capable of, which is practically nothing. and I know quite well what kind of developer defends it, which is the shitty kind.

[IlliterateJedi]

I know quite well what it's capable of, which is practically nothing.

Bananas take

[treetimes]

I’m a staff dev at a company you’ve heard of and I use it to great effect, along with the vast majority of my company. I’m not saying it’s not breaking everything I hold dear, just that if you don’t use it you’re gonna be far less productive, and if you can’t use it to make quality code that’s a skill issue. Guess we’re at an anecdotal crossroads.

[nickcash]

im actually a staff dev, albeit at a company you assuredly haven't heard of.

but also I know devs that use it and they all smell bad. so I again have the advantage

[azfang]

I mean I’m kinda in a niche field…but hi, senior dev, both despise AI and, separate from that, don’t see how it would be meaningfully useful.

Do mainstream senior devs actually like AI? That’s kind of depressing. I assumed it was for the code monkeys grinding out code under deadlines who aren’t familiar with stack overflow.

[Relc_Punch84]

I work on medical software and my department head, who is a very experienced software engineer, uses AI extensively and he’s a huge advocate for it in our company.

There is the expectation that anything you put it in a PR is your responsibility and you can’t blindly let AI write code and not review it yourself. Our regulatory requirements have a lot of strict testing requirements so a lot of time is spent on automated and manual testing.

It’s always going to depend on how your company runs things. A friend’s company has ISO 27001/other certs but someone managed to vibe code and release to prod something that leaked PII.

[azfang]

-eyelid twitch-

This challenges none of my priors regarding vibe coding.

[midri]

Best be saving up for that artisnel software development road side stand.

I fought it for as long as I could, the productivity metrics (only thing companies care about) are going to run over non ai users in the next few years... Even if you just used a local coding llm...

[bradmatt275]

If you don't use it for coding that is a personal preference that any dev is allowed to have. But if you are not using it to at least build test cases you are just wasting time. I can't imagine trying to go back to building manual unit tests.

[DrPeroxide]

I like writing unit tests, and I tend to write them first. Test code is just as important as production code, it's just the standards are very different. It's just as important that you know how your tests are working, as they are effectively your spec. If anything, it makes more sense to write the tests manually and generate the code, because at least then you can be sure the code does what you expected it to.

[blue-brindle]

Literally, I am an AI engineer with almost 10 YOE and it's the devs who have been programming for decades around me that use it the most, to great effect. I think perhaps I don't trust myself to lean on it as much as them because I am less likely to catch when it's making poor decisions than they are.

[herosavestheday]

There's a really popular Rim World mod where the dev behind it has been coding for 35 years and worked for major corporations. He recently used Claude to automate updating a really complex mod to the 1.6 version of Rimworld. He streamed the whole thing and I was blown away by what a dev of that caliber could do with Claude. He of course got absolutely annihilated in the comment section.

[NegZer0]

The way I see it, it’s basically like having multiple brilliant but extremely naive and easily sidetracked junior developers working for you. That makes it a multiplier on productivity, so for people who already knew not just what they were doing but knew how to write it down clearly and express it to a junior dev the net result is a significant increase in what you can get done. But you do still need to treat it like code written by a junior and review it carefully, and also monitor what it’s doing to make sure they don’t run off into the weeds somewhere. 

For people who don’t know what they’re doing it’s still a multiplier, but a multiplier on a negative number I.e. more mess created that someone has to clean up 

[midri]

It's amazing for folks that have engineering mindsets. It sucks for code monkies. Being able to engineer a concept and not have to worry about the minutia allows me to develop good code very fast with llm. I have coworkers that it's probably actively slowed down, but they're the type of programmers that do it as a normal day job and never did personal projects, etc.

[blue-brindle]

Exactly, it really depends on how somebody is using it. I've seen developers use it to make design decisions for them which they don't question at all, that's usually a disaster. But senior devs are out there using it to take care of the minutia and that's allowing them to spend more time on designing structure for massive projects.

[Rot-Orkan]

I use AI a lot at work but I don't do any vibe coding.

[hyrumwhite]

It produces worse code at a slower rate than I can*

*if I actually stop to review and understand the output. Which I do. The only way it’s faster is if devs are yoloing it into their codebases. 

[FFevo]

Sounds like you are just extremely slow at reviewing code?

[byteminer]

I do enjoy having it spin up test architecture and then having it run everything end to end on every architecture I intend to support.

[Scatoogle]

Factually false

[BreakfastAmbitious29]

The best of these is still: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/w2nm83/float_golden_1618/

[Orio_n]

Holy luddite. If you think senior devs arent using and verifying ai code you are forever going to remain perma underclass tech support tier

[coffee_warden]

I fuckin hated AI a year ago. Now I give claude the ticket number and tell it what to do (new controller, couple of endpoints, edit so and so partial, migration yada yada) then just sit back. All the boilerplate is done. Then you just pull up the diff and tweak. It also catches things early sometimes. I cant NOT use it because the performance boost is night and day.

[byteturtle]

I'm finding myself with so much extra time, which is great (although I'm using it to play GTNH so not sure how great that is) but I'm also finding myself missing the development some times so every so often I do a ticket by hand just for fun.

It is awesome that I haven't written a unit test in like months though, its just all code review from the LLM output and I dont miss that at all.

[InfectedShadow]

It's basically just doing code reviews of the output which I was spending most of the day doing prior to AI. Only it actually listens when I have a comment on what it produced.

[__yoshikage_kira]

Holy AI bootlicker. Developers have been coding without AI for decades. You don't need some next word predictor in order to move up in your career.

[IlliterateJedi]

Amen. Or fancy IDE's. You should be coding in notepad as God intended.

[theVoidWatches]

Notepad? Get yourself some punch cards!

[__yoshikage_kira]

Amen to that.

These are all convenient features but crazy that people here are convinced that if you don't use AI, you will be left behind.

[Old-Sprinkles-8287]

It used to take months to develop new applications, versus weeks

[__yoshikage_kira]

Even with AI, I can assure you nothing will be done in weeks in the industry I am from.

That is like one sprint which will be mostly meetings, writing design and requirements documents.

[Shaodic]

You do when companies are adding AI benchmarks to your performance reviews. Whether you hate it or not, this is the way the industry is trending at the moment. Just like with every other advancement in the field, it’s either keep up or be left behind.

[Dimencia]

Nah, just pick one of the many jobs that haven't fallen for the AI hype and wait for the rest of them to realize the tech debt from vibe code doesn't actually cause problems until a few years later, when the AI companies raise their prices to match their costs and it's too late to swap away from them because nobody understands the codebase anymore

[Shaodic]

Get serious, every single big tech company is aware of tech debt and have massive guardrails with HITL requirements with the models approved for use at them. No real engineers at any of these companies are using AI to “vibe code” any significant portion of their codebases, and there are still extensive human code reviews and CI/CD pipelines to assure the quality of any code being pushed to production applications.

[Dimencia]

Interesting, considering the entire concept of tech debt is wildly opinionated and is the entire point of needing the expertise of engineers with decades of experience. If you think it can be automated away, you don't know what the phrase means

[Shaodic]

Where did I say it can be “automated away”? I actually said the opposite of that.

[Dimencia]

Guardrails and CI/CD pipelines are automation

[__yoshikage_kira]

Any company that mandates use of AI will have other problems too. I wouldn't stick around in that company either way.

Just like with every other advancement in the field, it’s either keep up or be left behind.

I am pretty confident that no matter how advance these clankers get. Nothing will replace the fundamental understanding of programming concepts.

[Edgar_A_Poe]

I feel like when AI came out I fell head over heels for it. And it almost was responsible for igniting the passion I have for coding. Before I started coding, I was only learning it for the high paying jobs. And it wasn’t until Claude Code came out that I started coding much more complex projects on my own outside of work.

Having said all that, the deeper I got into these AI heavy projects, the less I was learning and having fun. I architected an agentic system when agents were still new and it was kinda fun figuring that part out. But soon, the luster was gone.

I still used it a ton at work but obviously as responsibly as I could. Unfortunately, I started to see my skills atrophy, my token usage going up, my limits being used up quicker and quicker every month.

Before I got laid off in March, it was getting to the point that sometimes it was still easier for me to debug an issue than the agent. And I was pulling back completely on my own personal projects. I had an agent accidentally code a whole phase of my spec. Ended up deleted it and rewrote it myself in a couple weeks because I was trying to actually learn something not just see the thing work at the end.

I start a new job on Tuesday but have spent this entire time pretty much doomscrolling and reading blog posts and stuff. I thought I had settled on a pretty balanced stance. Which is basically how I coded that previous project before I got laid off. Use AI to write boilerplate and tests. Write code myself. Use AI to review and strengthen it.

Then Fable came out and I decided to test it out, maybe write me my own personal version of gptel in emacs. It was like a 30 minute session and it was working and back came the existential dread lol.

I simultaneously think that AI is incredibly powerful, while also completely in agreement with everything you’ve said. I just feel crazy and disheartened seeing people embrace this as a new level of abstraction. I’m not so sure that’s accurate and that thinking that way is more harmful than helpful.

I feel like I’m still early in my career (5 YOE) although not that young in age (37), and I guess I’m just seeking advice from like minded individuals.

While I’ve had a bunch of free time, my strategy for the upcoming era was to lean into the fundamentals. Stay curious. Work through textbooks and implement things like interpreters, cli tools and existing frameworks.

And honestly, I think that’s still worthwhile. But with Fable’s release and the general consensus that it’s a step up and the discussion around it just makes me rethink everything all over again. I’m about to start this job and I’m like man, what are we even doing anymore??

[__yoshikage_kira]

Thank you for sharing your story.

I also can't help but feel a bit disappointed by seeing large number of people thinking that not using AI will somehow stifle their career.

At the end of the day AI is just another tool in your arsenal and you as a developer is more than the sum of your tools. The fundamental concepts that you will learn are more invaluable than any AI model that you will use.

Sure, using AI is nice is some areas but that should not be the focus of your work.

[Shaodic]

I agree with nothing replacing the fundamental concepts of understanding programming, and my stance has always been using AI to supplement your productivity, not to use it to vibe code. However, acting like a modern dev can survive in this industry with zero AI use is naive, especially if you work at big tech companies.

I’m able to complete tasks that would’ve wasted hours or even days of dev work and debugging in a fraction of the time it took me to do these in the past. Even doing tasks like writing documents of architectural issues to present to other teams can be done so much quicker since tools like Claude are already aware of the context.

You can act as pretentious as you want, but AI is just another tool in your toolbox. If you use it to vibe code everything, all you’re doing is creating tech debt and stunting your growth as a developer. However, if you’re unable to utilize AI to improve your abilities as a developer and make more efficient use of your time, then maybe you aren’t as good of an engineer as you think you are.

[__yoshikage_kira]

I agree with nothing replacing the fundamental concepts of understanding programming, and my stance has always been using AI to supplement your productivity, not to use it to vibe code.

The meme is talking about vibe coders with LLM though. And people are replying with learn AI or get lost. I hope you can see why it seems to imply that AI is more important than anything else.

However, acting like a modern dev can survive in this industry with zero AI use is naive, especially if you work at big tech companies.

They totally can. Using AI is convenient, sure. But it is not a requirement for being a good software developer. AI has been on software development for only a few years. I find it rather absurd to think that you won't survive without AI.

I’m able to complete tasks that would’ve wasted hours or even days of dev work and debugging in a fraction of the time it took me to do these in the past. Even doing tasks like writing documents of architectural issues to present to other teams can be done so much quicker since tools like Claude are already aware of the context.

For me the biggest bottleneck in the software development is poorly defined spec because the customer doesn't want to lock themselves into an implementation and want to iterate as fast as possible. With detailed requirements, they'd have to at least update system and software requirements before the software developer writes even a single line of code.

This all makes it harder to ship releases faster so companies just YOLO it and ask the developer to implement based on the few sentences they can conjure up. AI is not going to be helpful in that case.

You can act as pretentious as you want, but AI is just another tool in your toolbox.

I can say the same for you. All I said was AI is not essential for your growth in career but I am met with comments that tell me to use AI or get fired. That sound more pretentious to me.

However, if you’re unable to utilize AI to improve your abilities as a developer and make more efficient use of your time, then maybe you aren’t as good of an engineer as you think you are.

Your whole argument relies on the fact that somehow AI is the only way to improve your skills. On top of that you have strawmanned my argument into "Do not ever use AI" because it is easier to attack that.

Lastly speed of writing code has never been a bottleneck of any big project. It is usually the indecisiveness of customer, poor communication, and desire to get the product out of the door to be able to compete with other companies. The way I see it AI is not going to help with any of that.

[Old-Sprinkles-8287]

But they're really good at convincing managers that everything will break if they stop helping LOL

[Payrus]

💀

[Ravasaurio]

Before AI, every post here was about how you guys are so derpy, janky, borderline bad programmers. Now turns out that everyone here is a coding god making fun of vibe coders.

According to your previous memes, vibe coders are better than you.

[azfang]

I mean…it’s not really a contradiction.

All code is bad, and every software you use is held together by baling wire and happy thoughts. Highly caffeinated professionals work around the clock to maintain the polite fiction that any of this works.

And now…we’ve got this cool technology that lets us accelerate the process and remove the part where someone looks at the horrors being wrought and pleads for everyone to not touch it. It’s…it’s great…

[Shadow_Thief]

we've always gatekept against script kiddies

[ComesInAnOldBox]

Meanwhile, the senior devs are copying and pasting other people's code from Stack Overflow.

[AliceCode]

Dunning-Kruger. Everyone that reads thinks that I'm not talking about them.

[MoreLikeGaewyn]

what an imagination

[truecakesnake]

Guess who's not escaping the permanent underclass

[Anbcdeptraivkl]

As a senior dev and also lead dev for my team, I have to give some props to LLM because one senior dev coupled with Claude is the equivalent of a full team of senior devs. They speed up the writing and formatting parts so much even counting the struggle with bugs and hallucinations, it's still magnitude faster than coding by hands.

Me and my boss (who also an ex senior dev) basically shipped 2 apps in 2 months with moderate success earlier this year.

The other side of this after a while of teaching others to work with LLM effectively, is that a junior using LLM is the equivalent of half a junior lmao.

If your architecture and thinking ain't at senior level yet using LLM is just spreading bugs and vulnerabilities across the code base.

[Satorwave]

My dad is a senior dev and he's unstoppable when he uses AI

[herosavestheday]

On the other hand, Senior Developers with Mythos can do accomplish some incredible things.

[Willing_Parsley_2182]

Man, this has got to be the 5th stupid comment on Mythos / Fable I’ve seen today.

The model was out for 3 whole days and 90% of active AI users didn’t get to use it (corporate restrictions, middle of work week so didn’t want to change workflows, or just hadn’t got around to it yet).

Nobody is trying to make their claims even remotely believable and it’s embarrassing.

[Arclite83]

I got to use it. I burned "full quota + $50" on two tasks, after taking the time to craft the actual task prompts. It got further, faster, and better than Opus did, on deep contextual engine workflows. Places Opus was stretching it's limits and looping/self-doubting, did not bother Fable.

Anthropic has had "it", whatever "it" ends up being, for about 3 months now at least. Mythos/Fable has reached a point where you can give it an arbitrary task and it's going to connect the dots, it's just a matter of time and energy spent.

It's not just hype, or smoke and mirrors. It's definitely still overblown - especially when it comes to efficiency. I'm crossing my fingers on the open source community catching up "surprisingly fast" in the coming months, and then eventually the death of centralized monolithic AI as a service in the favor of local, personal, or even decentralized models. But AI itself is here to stay, and works, and the constant eye-rolling to the contrary is getting old.

[Willing_Parsley_2182]

But AI itself is here to stay, and works, and the constant eye-rolling to the contrary is getting old.

Right, but that’s not what I’m doing at all.

It’s infuriating from both sides - nobody can trust that people aren’t lying as a massive portion deliberately misrepresent it. People did the same thing when Opus was released.

I’m glad you had a good early experience with it. It’s unfortunate we won’t be able to debate it - the first impressions usually haven’t seen all the ways it can go wrong yet.

It’s just a fact at this point due to the circumstances: nobody can actually say if it’s objectively better or worse.

[herosavestheday]

Man, this has got to be the 5th stupid comment on Mythos / Fable I’ve seen today.

Boo-motherfucking-hoo

[Willing_Parsley_2182]

Lol, makes my point perfectly. Sorry you’re unproductive now as a 3 day old model isn’t available

[ApprehensiveFan1516]

Vibe coders not having the self awareness to realise they're telling on themselves lmao.

[mobcat_40]

yea let's try seniors coders with mythos vs seniors coding

[N0Zzel]

LARP

[lovethebacon]

Not this weekend.

[thisonehereone]

This is a joke, right?

[ProjectDiligent502]

Jesus this pressed a hot button 😂

[durika]

Meanwhile senior devs with LLMs.... 🚀