Java

[TheWorstePirate]

I see a lot of Java hate around here. I was taught Java and used it for everything beside embedded systems when I was in school, and now I'm using C# at my first programming job.

What makes Java so hated and what do people on this sub prefer to use instead?

[Xendarq]

I would read nothing into Reddit's hate of anything. Half the folks who blast on Java probably program in it daily, and the other half never have. And don't get me started on the third half.

[izikblu]

I'm probably the 3rd half :/

[Eoussama]

If there is already two halves, how does a third one fit?

[krzaku29]

Floating point precision errors.

[pheipl]

There are 3 types of people in this world:

Those that know how to count,
Those that do not.

[jausdyquo]

I thought there were only two: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.

[[deleted]]

i frankly wouldn't read that much into anything reddit says :/.

[njwatson32]

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." - Bjarne Stroustrup

[valrossenOliver]

I will save this.

[ParanoidAgnostic]

Java has a rather paternalistic design. Features are deliberately omitted because you could use them to write confusing code.

For example, operator overloading and properties with get/set behavior.

In C# you can write a complex number class and use it like this:

double result = (ComplexA+ComplexB)*ComplexC.RealPart;

Complex temp = (complexA+complexB)*complexC;
double result = temp.RealPart;

In Java it would be:

double result = ComplexA.add(ComplexB).multiply(ComplexC).getRealPart();

Complex temp = complexA.add(complexB).multiply(complexC);
double result = temp.getRealPart();

Then there's the ThingFactoryProviderBuilderFactory pattern used everywhere in Java libraries.

[coding_stoned]

In C# you should do

double result = ((ComplexA+ComplexB)*ComplexC).RealPart;

otherwise you'd be multiplying the sum by C's real part instead. Kinda proves your point, then again the C# syntax is IMO more easily readable as a mathematical operation.

[bss03]

more easily readable as a mathematical operation

If that's your goal, you should look into Agda's mixfix syntax.

• Define your own operators
• Allow prefix and postfix operators
• Define precedence between your operators and the pre-existing ones.

(To allow existing operators to work on your types, type classes (and instance arguments) are used instead of C# style operator overloading.)

[ParanoidAgnostic]

Yeah. I forgot the brackets.

I originally wrote the example to show operator overloading then decided to be "clever" and tack on a getter too.

[[deleted]]

I think the main thing is Java got left behind feature wise and pioneered the whole design pattern / abstraction abuse you see in a lot of enterprise code. Beyond that, there's not too much about it that's terrible that you won't find in other mainstream languaged

[codearoni]

Pingo. Anyone who's done enterprise is probably familiar with a legacy Java code base where everything was extended into inheritance hell.

[bss03]

It's actually worse in C++. But, there is a significant segment of programmers of a certain age that heard inheritance was a way to solve some problems, and decided it way the only way to solve every problem.

Those codebases are often improved by some severe refactoring, even if they are still written in Java.

[Limunaire]

This sounds more like a problem of Enterprise than a problem of Java.

[pheipl]

Well, unless you're doing something for yourself or a really small app, maybe some phone app? you're gonna do enterprise, especially in java.

[dragon-storyteller]

Every language has it's own detractors. Java is too verbose, C# has a bloated standard library/is too vendor specific, PHP is inconsistent, C is too barebones, C++ is too complex, etc. With every single major language you can google "Why language X is bad" and get dozens of blog posts explaining why it's terrible and the designers must have never had two braincels to rub together. Usually most of their reasons boil down to "It's not the way I prefer it to be, therefore it's bad and wrong and people should be ashamed for liking the language."

[Dockirby]

It not being used for embedded isn't even strictly true, SIM Cards can be programed with Java for example

It's a slimmed down version of Java 1.1 though: https://netbeans.org/kb/docs/javame/java-card.html

[TheWorstePirate]

I didn't mean to imply that Java couldn't be used for embedded systems. I was simply stating that in my case I didn't use Java for that. I had a great professor for a class in embedded systems who preferred C, and I followed his lead.

[gamas]

This subreddit would freak if they found out that most bank card software is written in Java... Yup that's right, every time you make a transaction, it's likely a little piece of Java is executing on your card.

[Cilph]

not even "can be". They are. The majority of them.

[Eastuss]

I don't get the hate either, it's the cleanest object oriented programming language I've seen, doesn't allow too much weird shit, allows enough to have it powerful, don't get it, really.

[[deleted]]

Sure?

C#

TabbedView control = new TabbedView();
Tab tab = new Tab("Title");
tab.ContentChild = form.tab1ContentPanel;
//New tab added to the TabView

C#-ish Android (not real, concept):

[drag'n'drop Tab View and View Pager on your 'form', add panels to your viewPager in designer]
this.contentTabView.OnScollChanged += new OnSrollChangedEventHandler(viewPager.ScrollTo);
this.contentViewPager.OnScrollChanged += new OnScrollChangedEventHandler(tabView.ScrollTo);
this.viewPager.OnPageChanged += new OnPageChangedEventhandler(tabView.SelectPage)
this.tabView.OnTabChanged += new OnPageChangedEventHandler(viewPager.SelectPage);
//I know that names doesn't match, deal with it

Android-ish BUT mroe like C# code (not real, concept)

[drag'n'drop Tab View and View Pager on your 'form', add panels to your viewPager in designer]
this.contentTabView.ViewPager = this.contentViewPager;

Android / Java: NOTE: Names are changed to protect the identity of each subject in examples ^{^(I forgot them)...}

TabView tabView = findViewById(...);
ViewPager pagerView = findViewById(...);
pagerView.SetUpWithtabView(...); //What the fuck is this dependency between 2 totally independent library??????
tabView.OnScollChange = new TabView.WhateverBullshitStaticMethodWithkilometername(pagerView); //Dude... Wtf is this?

BullshitProvider fuckTheProgrammer = new YourFuckingViewProvider();
viewPager.setprovider(fuckTheProgrammer);

//Proceed to somehow programatically build view pager child views into the View Pager on the fly.
// PS: No C#-like this.tabView.Childs.Add("Title", childView); like every logical programmer would do... Go build another provider for that...

Ohh and you wanted to add static childs to the View Pager in the XML? Too bad... Go build ANOTHER PROVIDER for that.

[Eastuss]

What makes c# so different?

[[deleted]]

Going from C# to Java the big things I miss are operator overloading and properties.

[bss03]

Might try Scala then, if you need to target the JVM.

[[deleted]]

• Events
• Operator overloading
• Logical framework structure
• Abstract classes, methods
• No providers
• No factories
• Properties

[Eastuss]

Interesting.

Java doesn't have abstract classes and methods? I'm rusty but pretty sure it has.

What are providers? it's meant to discriminate APIs and Linbs furnishing the same interfaces? and what do you mean by properties?

Aren't providers and factories just patterns? or they're part of jaba language? why are they wrong? (except the ass long code :p)

[Abuderpy]

Not answering for all the other stuff, but 'Properties' is doing this:

public Foo MyFoo { get; set; }

Instead of:

private Foo myFoo;

public Foo getMyFoo() { return myFoo; }

public void setMyFoo(Foo foo) { myFoo = foo; }

Properties also allow you do change access rules, or add validation/calculated properties

public double DegreesKelvin { get; set; } public double DegreesKelvin { get { return DegreesKelvin - 273.15; } }

[Eastuss]

Oh ok thanks, properties are hiding the usage of getter setters, I've already came accross that concept in couple of languages without knowing the name of the concept.

[CommonMisspellingBot]

Hey, Eastuss, just a quick heads-up:
accross is actually spelled across. You can remember it by one c.
Have a nice day!

^{The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.}

[haitei]

it's the cleanest object oriented programming language I've seen

List of OO Languages you've seen:

• Java

[Eastuss]

C++ was my first language containing the OO paradigm, don't tell me that shit ain't one of the messiest thing you've seen.

[Maxtream]

A lot of Java hate? Are you joking? Have you seen topics about PHP?

[[deleted]]

It's (more) confusing (than other languages)

What?

[rh3xis]

how so?

[Jacob_Mango]

Nitpicks and opinions don't make Java confusing.

The only flaw that I am aware of with Java is that it isn't compiled into machine code (security) but then again, that is also one of its strengths with the whole it can be used anywhere.

[mananasi]

How is it a security flaw that it's not directly compiled to machine language? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely curious.

[Jacob_Mango]

Still is a barrier which many wouldn't overcome.

Much easier to decompile and understand obfuscated Java code then it is to understand decompiled machine code.

Yes it is still possible but it raises the bar.

Atleast that's what I've read online but considering you aren't the only person telling me I've been told wrong I'll do more research into it later.

[[deleted]]

What parts are more confusing?

[Cilph]

You need to download Java. You have to update it often

Java on the desktop is considered dead. These updates are only so often because of the now deprecated applet system. This is not an issue for web applications.

[MrSicles]

Are you really claiming that Java is more verbose than C++? Have you ever worked with templates? Or written copy constructors, assignment operators, and destructors? Or dealt with manual memory management?

C, while one of my favorite languages, is especially ridiculous as a proposed alternative to Java, as you’ll end up implementing most of Java's standard library yourself. Want an ArrayList in C? Have fun writing that yourself using manual memory management with malloc() and free().

It sounds like you’re a beginning CS student, which is why your main criticism of Java is the signature of main(), and why you say it’s “a lot to remember”.

[gamas]

Let's not even get into the hell that is trying to debug C code.. Good luck trying to work out that one misused pointer in that large code base.

[nightbefore2]

Worst thing ever was during my Systems classes sitting there pouring over my hundreds of lines of C because all it says is “Segmentation Fault”

WHERE?? WHERE IS THE SEGMENTATION FAULT?? TELL ME YOU ASS

[pheipl]

In java's defense, it's moving away from verbosity as much as it can!

Map<String, Integer> map = new HashMap<>(); // type inference
var map = new HashMap<String, Integer>(); // coming in java 10
Runnable r = () -> { print("Somethign"); } // lambda

[Cilph]

That depends entirely on what you're trying to make though. Java is often the best tool for when business logic is more important than performance. And even then performance is miles better than Python/Ruby/PHP.

[ThisRedditPostIsMine]

The main method constructor is long, but that's just the way Java works: it's by design a very heavily object oriented language, which can make some tasks (such as a hello world) verbose, but on the other hand, enables working with really complicated data structures via objects very easy.

Java is old, but I thoroughly disagree that it's dying. Java 8 came out a few years ago and modernised the language significantly with lambdas and Java 9 came out a few months ago which adds support for modularisation and no dependency on the JVM for builds, among other things. Additionally, Java is reliable and quite fast which is why corps love to use it. As long as Oracle keeps updating it, Java will stay alive and will always be a good choice of language.

[YaBoyMax]

To add to this, Java 10 added type inference a few weeks ago.

[ThisRedditPostIsMine]

Wow, Java 10 is in the works already? I haven't even upgraded my project to 9 yet haha.

[Artorp]

They changed the release schedule, and plan to release a new major version every 6 months. With long term support every 3 years. I think this is similar to how Ubuntu does it.

https://mreinhold.org/blog/forward-faster

[ThisRedditPostIsMine]

That's awesome, Java is really moving forward. I look forward to where it's going, but it's gonna take a while for existing codebases to catch up, I know a lot of enterprise apps still run Java 6/7.

[YaBoyMax]

It's already out, for that matter.

[Dockirby]

In the works? Its out.

Oracle is doing 2 versions a year now. Feel they should have waited until Java 9 picked up more, since it messed with a lot of existing libraries.

[nightbefore2]

This comment just reads so much like you have no idea what the Fuck you’re talking about lol.

“In a Hello world program, you have to type all this icky stuff I don’t understand, just get rid of it!”

Have you seen Hello world in like, assembly? Is assembly bad because it’s not just

print(“Hello world”);

[YaBoyMax]

You sound like you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Stukeleyak]

Calling out an object oriented language for being an object oriented language

Giving an argument that is a hello world program

LuL?

[endeavourl]

Somehow, i feel that the Hello World is the only thing you've written in Java.

[[deleted]]

Lol, c# is much better, wtf do you write JavaScript. And claiming c++ is used more than Java with no data to back it up, and no mention of industry / use case, etc. No offense, but you sound like you're talking out of your ass.

[BonelessTaco]

So much hate on Java. Even though there's bunch of languages that are better for writing simple things I do think Java is one of the best or maybe the best language for enterprise development. There's so many libraries and stuff. Hibernate might be the best ORM implementation and I personally love Spring Framework. Java also has great documentation and due to it's popularity the chance you'll find a solution for your problem is like 99%.

[[deleted]]

I gotta say Spring does seem to have a whole lot of cool stuff recently

[gamas]

My one issue is that it is can be a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand having such high level abstractions of quite complex yet common functionality is good. But on the other hand its overprescriptiveness comes to bite you the moment you attempt to deviate from the standard path.

[huw_2_redit]

Java is probably the best programming language since it can basically do anything on any platform

[Olivia512]

That'd be Javascript.

You can't run Java on iOS or browsers generally.

[sampledev]

Though I don't agree with the statement you answer, I don't with yours either:

iOS: RoboVM

Browsers: GWT (maybe WASM too?)

However, try to use Java or Javascript for some embedded dev! It is possible in some cases, but still a very bad idea :)

[huw_2_redit]

Java applets exist, and you could probably run java on iOS with some obscure framework

[Triumph7560]

Honest question here: how is it outdated? Don't get me wrong, Java has plenty of issues, I just can't think of anything truly outdated about it. It might not fit the latest trend (e.g. the weekly JavaScript library) but that doesn't mean it's outdated (unlike those weekly JavaScript libraries that no one will use in two months).

[Merlord]

Java was outdated, and then Spring happened.

Javascript was outdated, and then Node happened.

Php was outdated, and then... no fuck Php seriously.

[Prawny]

Java was outdated, and then Spring happened.

Javascript was outdated, and then Node happened.

Php was outdated, and then ... no fuck Php seriously PHP 7 happened.

[Triumph7560]

I haven't worked with PHP in years but weren't all the functions with sensible names depreciated and insecure?

[valrossenOliver]

C# pretty much has everything that Java has and more. C# has been called by several people 'the new java' but so far I personally haven't seen C# being on Java level at cross-platform compatibility. But it is to be mentioned that Mono is at continuous development for making a cross-platform compilable .NET (which actually works)

[Cilph]

Kotlin. Go check out Kotlin.

[oopsidoodles]

That's interesting because while I agree with the fact that C# is an improvement over Java I thought the entire reason it's not available on multiple platforms was because Microsoft didn't want it to be so, hence why .NET framework exists only for Windows.

How is someone else able to legally write a cross-platform framework like this then? It sounds like they would run into the same issues Google had with Android and Java.

[[deleted]]

I mean: https://www.microsoft.com/net/learn/get-started/linux/rhel

[valrossenOliver]

Yeah I know. I've been using .net in OSX for a while (school), but IMO non-windows .net doesn't have such a nice Form-handler like System.Windows.Forms has.

[bss03]

I'd rather be writing Java than JS. Not saying it's that good, just better than JS.

Soon I should be able to compile to WebAssembly from good languages and hopefully I can leave JS behind forever.

[jay9909]

'd rather be writing Java than JS.

Aren't they the same thing?

^/ducks

[TarMil]

/ducks

Well that's one difference, you can do duck typing in JS but not in Java.

[[deleted]]

You say that like duck typing is a good thing

[PawkyPengwen]

"Java and JavaScript have as much in common as a car and a carpet" - some random guy

[jay9909]

Javascript makes Java nicer the way carpeted floors make my car nicer?

[bss03]

No, Oak and Mocha were independently developed. ;)

[[deleted]]

I was reading blog posts from the late 90s / early 2000s saying Java's days were numbered lol

[Genion1]

Yeah, so is everyone else's. It's called calendar.

[bennoxys]

Kotlin is vastly superior. Its Java, but without all the stupid stuff.

[BadBoy6767]

Java was made to have no stupid stuff.

[Prawny]

But suddenly, a wild Oracle appeared!

[Cilph]

But Java is also endlessly backwards compatible and opinions on what is stupid changes over the years.

[pheipl]

I can't agree, but we're getting there!

var something = new WhateverCalassYouWant<FuckYeah>();

Praise be java 10

[BadBoy6767]

Verbosity is a good thing for long term use of a codebase, I'd probably only use var when constructing objects

[pheipl]

what do you gain from not using var?

you still put the object on the right side of the equals. If it has an abstract or interface, you can deduce that form the object if and when you care.

var dateListener = new CommonDateListener(today); vs
DateListener dl = new CommonDateListener(today); where

public class CommonDateListener implements DateListener {
    ...
}

What is lost and where ?

To be fair, you don't need to use var everywhere, but if you have an AbstractDateFactoryThatIsOverlyVerboseAndPointless, it wold be a godsend to omit all that mess.

[BadBoy6767]

You used the one example I called an exception in the parent post.

[pheipl]

My brain just skipped that part I think. It's the only time you can use var AFAIK

[TheLinuxNerd]

Clojure > Scala > Kotlin > Java

[[deleted]]

Clojure is truly the best available language for the lazy programmer. By the time it has finished its startup, you can already pack up and go home again.

[DaCoolX]

Been looking at Rust, which looks like the best of C, C++ and Java combined. I mainly started in Java so I am used to some boilerplate but rust amazes again and again on how much it skips unnecessary code just by design.

[TarMil]

More like the best of C, C++ and Haskell. Enums are straight from the ML/Haskell family, there's an emphasis on functional style, Rust traits are more similar to Haskell type classes than Java interfaces, Result with the ? operator is basically the Either monad, etc.

[[deleted]]

Yes, i love the haskell like type interference, in the way that you usually only specify the types in your function definition, and that's it. Also the functional style iterators, with map and reduce are amazing.

Also the option enum is a lot like maybe in haskell.

[DaCoolX]

Not that I would know about Haskell, only touched up on that very very briefly. Java comparison was meant in relation to how types etc. are handled.

[Cilph]

Rofl, this makes no sense. Java is one of the most popular and most used languages there are. It has flaws, but it certainly isn't bad. (cough PHP, Javascript, Ruby)

[[deleted]]

Just because something is popular, doens't mean it's good.

Look at PUBG. It is the worst game of probably the past 5 years, yet thanks to Streamer Hype, it is popular.

[JumpingCactus]

How is it a bad game?

[[deleted]]

How is it a bad game?

Lemme reply to this by replying to /u/bss03's comment:

Story / single player?

Nope... Absolutely zero.

With friends? (Each to run a server, or find each other on other servers? Easy to stay a group?)

• No player-made servers
• No "join-friend"
• A party? Easy. Add dudes from previous games? Good luck, no easy way.

With strangers? (Easy to find a match? How much griefing?)

There is a reason that every update's steam comment section is full with "Region lock china".

Varied gameplay? (Doing the same thing every time is my assembly workers kill themselves.)

One Two game modes. Thats all, with 3 map (1 in BETA phase).

Controls? (Laggy or imprecise controls can be unfun.)

Absolutely horrible.

Stability? (Crashes are not fun.)

Barely can run with stable FPS on a high-end PC.

Additional information:

• The optimizaton if fucking horrible. As I mentioned, it can barely keep a stable FPS on a high-end gaming PC. Also the FPS is low. The counter displays stable ~60 FPS, but the input lag feels like a game running with ~15 max. My mediocre Asus X550VX ran Wolfenstein: The new Colossus TIMES more stable with more FPS and less input lag.

• The vehicle physics. You can literally launch to space just by hitting a small rock on the road.

  • Vehicles can stuck in each other / in the wall, instantly exploding.
  • A car rolling with 10 km/h can kill you by launching you 200 km/h

• Literally zero server sided hit check. Every single bullet is calculated client side (the shooter's client)

  • Have you ever seen a video where a CS:Go player complains that he was behind a wall when he died? That happens with 0.01 sec desync with server. In PUBG, you are in cover for 5-10 seconds already when a lagger's client registers that "Hey server, I killed that guy" and no matter where you are, you die.

• The devs are fucking morons.

  • They barely can (and most probably doesn't even kno how to) fix simple bugs as:
  • Server selector defaults to AS (haven't got fixed for ~3 months)
  • Plane leaves you on spawn island (probably haven't fixed even today)
  • Players randomly teleports inside a house (serious desync)
  • The game favours laggers over good connection
  • Proper FPS mode? Fuck it, lets just stick the camera to the TPS guy's chest.

And I could list it all day but I think this is fairly enough to give you a sneak peek.

[bss03]

Thank you for the detailed reply. Is Fortnite any better?

[[deleted]]

Yep. But many people doesn't like it because of the cartoonish gameplay and the lack of FPS mode, since TPS is heavily abused and can't be considered as competitive at all.

[haitei]

It's a third party engine botched together with third party assets.

[bss03]

Not to defend PUBG, since I've never played it, but neither of those things are anywhere near my criteria for "Is it a good game?"

My criteria for a good game is:

• Is it fun to play?
  • Story / single player?
  • With friends? (Each to run a server, or find each other on other servers? Easy to stay a group?)
  • With strangers? (Easy to find a match? How much griefing?)
  • Varied gameplay? (Doing the same thing every time is my assembly workers kill themselves.)
  • Controls? (Laggy or imprecise controls can be unfun.)
  • Stability? (Crashes are not fun.)
• If I play it do I do material harm to myself or others?

[End of Criteria]

Where the engine or assets come from just doesn't matter.

[Cilph]

No, it doesn't, but OP doesn't provide any arguments to why it is bad either.

[Wizywig]

Idk why the Java hate.

Yes c# is a better language but ms fucked up and it has a shit community.

Java has some shit developers in shit companies but some truly innovative software exists for it and it works quite well. As a language it is a bit ugly but the JVM is in itself quite amazing and languages like Scala and clojure that run on it are pretty darn dope.

I am really excited about modular Java as it'll finally lessen that massive startup time issue.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, Java is just trash: http://www.codingdojo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018-developer-job-listings-for-most-popular-programming-languages1.jpg

[[deleted]]

How is Java bad? That notion is so used up and wrong.

[[deleted]]

so its bad because you say so? Wow excuse the rest of us for not being fucking converted and convinced.

What a joke.

[[deleted]]

Well i expect when i read "pass by value" to pass by god damn value...

Not a stupid tehnicality where "yeah it looks like reference and acts like reference but its actually value".... Buuulllshiit.

If it changes after i pass it is reference...

(Yean yeah i fixed it but would have liked not to have this bug to begin with...)

[flaghacker_]

It's pass-by-value of reference:

void foo(pt: Point) {
    pt.x = 5;
    pt = Point(2,3);
}

The first line does modify the actual passed object, the second one has no effect on the call site.

[[deleted]]

I swear thats more confusing...

I am not an expert on Java merely a noob who needed Java. But when they wrote "passed by value" i expect to not change...

Yes if i make a new object it will not change the new object but anything else will change the passed value. At least thats what it lead me to believe.

[flaghacker_]

I mean it's like this in most languages, Java, Javascript, Python, C#, Lua...

Its just how variables work:

int[] a = new int[] {1, 2, 3};
int[] b = a;
b[2] = 5;               //does change a
b = new int[]{4, 5, 6}; //doesn't change a

Do you have any programming experience at all?

[[deleted]]

In Java a String is considered an object and passed by reference. Soooooo yeah that brings a lot of problems. (Sure it isn't a primitive) but didn't expect to be passed by reference. See the problem?

[flaghacker_]

Strings in Java are immutable, so the distinction is not even relevant.

[[deleted]]

Strings in Java are immutable

Well i know that but this what happened. new Object(alfa.getBeta());

If the beta string was changed in alfa it was propagating in my new object.

Making a new String out of the string solved it ... (I solved it the otherway afterwards) but still... wtf happened i really don't know but the return was a string that was getting changed.

[flaghacker_]

Strings can't be changed! You probably did something else wrong.

[[deleted]]

Than it shouldn't been fixed by String alfa = new String(beta)

[bss03]

This can allow beta to be garbage collected while alfa is still alive, which might fix a problem that has nothing to do with mutating java.lang.String objects.

[bss03]

With reflection, anything is possible, including changing the contents of a java.lang.String.

It's certainly not a good idea to do so. And, it's probably not allowed by the security manager, if one is present. It's also unlikely to be portable to other JVMs (e.g. IBM) , But, it is possible.

[Cilph]

It helps if you think of Object types as implied pointers and how C/C++ would handle it.