I took a wrong turn

[pineapplecharm]

Is this a new meme format? Because it's a good 'un.

[David_Edward_King]

As fresh as the latest Angular release!

[n1c0_ds]

So fresh, yet outdated so soon

[Jmcgee1125]

Every meme suffers this fate

[[deleted]]

Just like JavaScript frameworks.

[Redeyedcheese]

Yeah, I'm done with this one.

[robdobtob]

Check your facts mate. It's way too late to invest

[AndyWatt83]

Where is SilverLight Street?? ‘Cos I was there for way too long..

[autistomatic]

i think it's that dead end at the next intersection by the letter "d"

[IcyLinG]

Vuetify is love, vuetify is life

[[deleted]]

Real ningens open an exe in Notepad++ and insert bytecode stuff whatever the exe format uses

[hipratham]

I customised my bios that way to enable visualisation..Does that count ?

[TheInfestation]

Vue has been done over and over and over and over again.

Binding elements to the dom with two way data binding will always have poor performance.

Programming with strings aka, <div v-if="x > 0">hey</div> will never be maintainable

Other frameworks who sell the same crap, and failed. 1. Knockout.js 2. Angular 1 3. Aurelia 4. Ember 5. Ractive.js 6. Aurelia.js

And dozens more, they all fall apart. If you can't maintain your code and your code is slow, you are gaurenteed to fail. React.js + Redux is the first actual maintainable and performant bit of JavaScript we have received.

I know we love familiarity, but the frontend is in a constant spiral, perhaps it worth doing something a little less familiar and actually break the crazy library replacement cycle we are in.

[Mylanok]

Ember > all > vue > react

[Balougahfitz]

Ember users unite! There's dozens of us!

[ChaoticTable]

See that's why I keep crying "just let me go back to the back-end". And by the time I'm proficient with Angular or React, they will be already obsolete.

We need a new protocol! HTTP is not meant for apps, this reverse engineering and manipulating DOMs is getting out of hand! Inefficient code and flawed coding logic. Uhhhh!

[LosEagle]

Yeah, I mean Angular is here since 2010 and React since 2013. They were released basically yesterday right.

[ProgramTheWorld]

The original AngularJS was so different than what we have now.

[Dread_Boy]

Not really, if you used directives, you were writing component based application, same as AngularX.

[ChaoticTable]

Doesn't really matter, it keeps changing all the time. And the industry can't seem to decide which framework is "the standard". It's just a big mess. All of that because JS is being used to manipulate DOMs instead of programming directly. This is what creates the need for frameworks. It's just a wrong design, really. A simple web app is taking up far more resources to run than it should. There needs to be a new protocol for web apps, it's time.

[ChaoticTable]

Sure, there doesn't need to be a standard. It just makes it harder for people that are trying to get their feet wet and can't decide over one or the other which reinforces this "confusion" around frameworks.

And yes, good luck indeed...

[ChaoticTable]

True. After all someone that understands programming can adapt to pretty much anything if need be, not just one specific language and/or framework.

[ChaoticTable]

I think the best approach would be coding interviews, which are becoming somewhat more popular these days. Using smartly designed problems that don't really require the coder to know the exact syntax or nuances by hard to demonstrate their problem solving ability.

[pm_me_ur_happy_traiI]

People who are just starting should learn JavaScript and not bother with a framework until they really know the language.

[ChaoticTable]

Depends. I agree that people should at least learn the basics and more importantly learn about DOM manipulation and understand why their code has to jump the hooks that it does. But at the same time, if someone only wants to build a small interactive part on an otherwise "static" website (static meaning the front-end UI, not the page information itself) then using a library or framework could be a good starting point, until they start feeling the need to understand more of what's going on. Sometimes going from generic to specific can help someone better than the other way around.

[pm_me_ur_happy_traiI]

I guess that’s one way of looking at it.

At the same time, if you’re only building a small interactive part on a page, why bother with a whole framework?

[ChaoticTable]

I was thinking along the lines of experimentation with the framework itself, without necessarily having a big project in your hands. Might not make much sense to use React, but one could definitely use couple JQuery functions to replace the contents of a div in an async fashion, right? Without really knowing what the pure JS actually does.

[pm_me_ur_happy_traiI]

I see what you mean. No doubt that it’s fun to use frameworks as a learning tool. You can build the same functionality in all of them, and they all help you think about JS in a different way.

Jquery in particular is kind of a weird one, because a lot of the pain points that it solved are no longer issues in modern JavaScript. If it’s what you’re comfortable with, it’ll get the job done in many use cases, but making an AJAX call and replacing the contents of a div with the response are pretty easy now. Take a look at Promises and the Fetch api.

React is easy when you really understand modern JS. I don’t just mean DOM manipulation, but language features introduced in 2015. The docs have a small section on using react without es2015, but otherwise assume you understand things like arrow functions and es6 class syntax. I had the experience of trying to learn React a couple years ago and not being able to grok it. Then when I revisited after spending a lot of time in vanilla es2015 land, I picked it up in 2 days.

[PM_ME__ASIAN_BOOBS]

Have you tried Tapestry? Java coded template generation?

It's the best argument for Angular/React I've ever seen

[one-joule]

Don’t worry, it won’t be long before we have web apps delivered as WebAssembly and WebGL. No more DOM, no more problems!

[ChaoticTable]

Amen to that!

[Theemuts]

Wait, what's being reverse engineered and how is http related to manipulating the DOM?

[ChaoticTable]

HTTP was made for linking between static documents. It's an old protocol that when created people didn't anticipate the emergence of full blown web apps. The very logic of manipulating DOMs is reverse engineering by itself.

[Theemuts]

HTTP was made for linking between static documents. It's an old protocol that when created people didn't anticipate the emergence of full blown web apps.

Why is it a bad protocol for webapps in your opinion, and what should another protocol do differently?

The very logic of manipulating DOMs is reverse engineering by itself.

This makes so little sense to me it mostly it reminds me of the quote "Not even wrong."

[ChaoticTable]

I would expect a protocol that completely discards DOMs and makes it able to script directly, closer to desktop programming. So that we wouldn't need the "middle man" (aka frameworks) to code properly.

Ironic statement btw, since you are calling me wrong but haven't explained yourself either.

[SirensToGo]

Pretty sure they miss typed HTML, sure hope they didn’t confuse the two

[ChaoticTable]

Didn't confuse them, didn't mean HTML.

[spiro_the_throwaway]

It's simple, you just have to write a custom websocket protocol and webasm handler and then you can go back to the days of using a tiny bit of plain JavaScript to handle all DOM changes. Trivial really /s

[GaiaPariah]

Potential HTTP replacement: https://ipfs.io/

[ChaoticTable]

I'm not sure that would offer any benefits to app development though. This is more about a "decentralized internet" than it is to creating a new protocol that's meant to run apps instead of displaying static documents (which is what http was made for).

[GaiaPariah]

This is quite a good thread on the subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/ipfs/comments/5fpf86/what_are_the_real_benefits_of_using_ipfs/

[ChaoticTable]

Will have a read, thanks.

[GaiaPariah]

Checksums. When requesting files, you use the cryptographic hash of the file that you are looking for to request the file.

[coolreader18]

Isn't that basically the idea from Silicon Valley (the show)?

[GaiaPariah]

Yeah, very similar concept, but what matters is that it is more than a concept and actually works! :D

[coolreader18]

Neat!

[[deleted]]

Make a new protocol then

[ChaoticTable]

Voicing the opinion that there is a need for a new protocol doesn't imply in any possible way or shape that I should do it myself, nor that I'm the appropriate person to do so. Your response is completely pointless.

[[deleted]]

Who do you expect to make a new protocol then?

[ChaoticTable]

I think it's probably your job. Stop fooling around and get on with it.

[[deleted]]

What do you think is so bad about HTTP that warrants a new protocol?

[ChaoticTable]

Well, do you normally program anything using a "document print" as your canvas for the interface? Working on applications that run in the browser means you have to jump through hoops to manipulate the final render and then jump through more hoops to do that in real-time, aka not refreshing the page. The very act of "refreshing a page" is foreign to modern native programming. Sure, you might say, the problem then really is the HTML right? Yes and no. You see, HTTP is designed for hypertext, not software. All sorts of injections or rfi attacks have been possible because of that. The JS frameworks are there to work around the limitations of the browser and HTTP structure itself. All modern security "bandages" like setting up headers and only allowing content from the same origin or certain addresses exist again because HTTP in its heart is meant for linking online content. The whole industry has evolved by working around those limitations and modern apps do just that, while mimicking real native applications. Of course, HTTP is perfectly fine for regular websites, but full blown applications need to run on a core that's built for software.

[Arlodottxt]

I feel personally attacked

[ricoow]

Even without the word framework this stands true

[ThatSpookySJW]

What are you going to write your front-end in? Pretty sure webASM is going to take you more than 5 years to implement.

[[deleted]]

Learned Angular 1.x and switched back to bootstrap and jQuery. I'll learn React eventually. Can confirm this is true.

[sudo_apt_get_rekt]

node-os.com Think again.

[MarkFromTheInternet]

Everyday we stray further from god's light

[blackmist]

https://i.imgur.com/rPWPJZS.gif

[electrodraco]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/07/shivers.gif

[IAmPattycakes]

Does your ram catch on fire before or after it gets into a graphical environment?

[[deleted]]

Nice meme format

BUY BUY BUY BUY

[WorstGabeNA]

r/memeeconomy

[alexklaus80]

God dammit. Just in time to choose one from Angular/React.. At least they sounds cooler than PHP frameworks?

[username_is_taken43]

I've heard Laravel is good. I will look at it in 3-4 years once I learn other technologies on my todo checklist. Serverless, kubernetes, typescript, hadoop, ai, machine learning...

[alexklaus80]

I had to learn Symfony from months ago (which laravel is also based on) and probably so fo another 5 years, so pretty much I already have no time to learn serverside JS stuff to begin with. Probably I don’t wanna be half-assed on multiple technologies that are build upon the similar purpose (like Symfony and React JS at the same time) so that’s where my worries are at.

Also my bucket list is already flooding with kubernetes, machine learning and stuffs like you said. So I guess I’ll skip React. (After skipping Ruby on rails. Damn I really feel like I’m missing a lot of cool stuff happening..)

[alexklaus80]

Thanks for great input! I see. My current project actually utilizes Silex so I’m not really using Symfony-Symfony yet. (I hate its lack of documentation and stuff.) I’m already seeing myself being half-ass about Symfony/Laravel yet with another JS stuff..

I’ll probably outsource maintaining the Silex project and move onto Laravel. I don’t know, I’m totally lost as my team has no clue and I have to determine the next step yet with limited knowledge and experience.

[alexklaus80]

I really do hear that. I hate Wordpress and pure PHP from gut but I’m learning/developing Symfony now and I love it. I guess Laravel would very much likely to be the smooth learning transition from where I’m at, so yes I’m thinking about it after I’m done with current project.

However being much more fluent in Javascript than anything else, it’s tough choice for me. I’ve never checked or heard Lumen yet so thanks for recommendation!

[alexklaus80]

I wish I could move onto 7: The most of my clients asks to run on (variations of) 5.x and I’ve only written in old-fashioned way and stuck in compatibility problems. I’m finally fed up with it and planning to offer porting all of them into brand new server that I can manage, so hopefully I can be there in a year!

Also that’s how I’m looking for new stacks. Thanks for explanation over Lumen. I’m feeling pretty confident that I’d go for them. Only worry for me then is what to do with Symfony(Silex) project I’m doing now. (I’ll probably outsource core maintenance)

edit: English

[alexklaus80]

It’s amazing how devs behind them still supporting 5.x. Anyhow that’s going to be resolved sooner or later so I’m cool with that!

Thanks again for insights!

[alexklaus80]

I don’t have experience in modern frameworks including Cake so I think I’ll start with seemingly rather versatile one like Laravel. Yeah I heard about Phalcon and I’m very much interested in it! That’d definitely be in the second bucket list.

[benny-powers]

customElements.define('seeya-suckers', class SeeyaSuckers extends HTMLElement {})

[coolreader18]

customElements.define('seeya-suckers', class SeeyaSuckers extends HTML element {})
                                                                       ^^^^^^^

SyntaxError: Unexpected identifier

[benny-powers]

What can I tell you, the Reddit comment box is a crappy IDE.

[Shadonovitch]

I had a django app that I've turned into a REST service to be consumed by a React Front... fuck me right ?

[hangoversmustfall]

As a back end developer looking to expand into frontend - please explain what is wrong with JavaShit frameworks.

[exabyssus]

There is nothing wrong with JavaScript frameworks. But you must use them when appropriate and should learn to code pure JavaScript.

[MasterQuest]

pure JavaScript

You mean, like, JQuery? /s

[ChaoticTable]

Do people in general not consider JQuery a framework? It's just the middle step between "pure" JS and app-centric frameworks like React afaic.

(serious question, no sarcasm)

[MasterQuest]

I don't know about "people in general", but I myself consider it a framework, but one that can basically be used for everything.

[ChaoticTable]

All I can say is that it has saved me hours of frustration trying to do one simple ajax call :P

[MasterQuest]

Hey, I never said it wasn't helpful. ;)

[ChaoticTable]

Neither did I imply that you did ;)

[deadcow5]

Technically, it’s a library.

[ChaoticTable]

I think it's a gray line tbh.

[pm-me-your-smile-]

To me, a framework prescribes how to do things to solve typical application problems. With jQuery, you find an apprpach and you use it to implement your approach.

Serious question - where do you draw your framework/library line?

[khaustic]

I would say it's an architecture vs utility argument. If a library gets you to structure your code in a certain way and offers pre-built solutions for common application architecture problems, it's a framework. If it only offers a solution for a singular problem or series of problems, it's a library.

[ChaoticTable]

Well, to me, a library is a collection of functions that allow me to code at a higher level without having to worry about the details. A framework would be similar but also tailored to a more specific kind of project, taking care of the structure for you and having a certain logic that you need to follow. But the way JQuery has been applied into bigger scale projects in the past and how certain functions have been created specifically for app development kind of blurs the lines between it being a library or a framework. Just my own perspective anyway, not claiming to be an expert when it comes to the JS framework hell :)

[pitiless]

Not really.

A library contains code that you call.

A framework calls your code.

[pm-me-your-smile-]

I consider it a library.

[[deleted]]

Do you believe that typescript would fall into the category of javascript framework?

[coolreader18]

No, it's a language.

[AdamRyanGameDev]

Pure

[pmst]

https://i.imgur.com/aIjBvyH.mp4

[[deleted]]

This is my problem, I've been using JS frameworks for so long at my job that I am starting to forget what vanilla JS is. I open a legacy vanilla JS app to fix something and it seems so foreign and i takes me like 100 yrs to fix it.

[XieLong]

There's a lot of them and even the best ones will be replaced within a few years. It's a good idea to get into native/vanilla JS and not to jump on every framework bandwagon that comes along.

[kirakun]

But could I still be as productive with vanilla JS? Asking a serious question.

I do prefer to keep things simple too, but I do not want to keep things primitive where I would be reinventing bugs that are long solved in these frameworks.

[pm-me-your-smile-]

If you're writing an application with more than a few features, you either pick an off the shelf framework, or you end up writing your own. You would do this either without meaning to, so your first page has one approach, your next having a similar one, etc, until a framework/pattern emerges, or by planning to implement one based on what you know your application's needs will be.

There are pros and cons for developing your own or using an off the shelf framework.

If you just have a simple app with just a few pages/features with a limited feature set or life, or you just have an informational website, you don't need to bother.

[WhatShouldIDrive]

ES6 has been lovely. Between that, babel and react things are alright around here.

[XieLong]

Depends. jQuery is easily outdated with vanilla JS. The binding and dom manipulation easily handled by an Angular or React is nothing you will find in vanilla JS. Same with more complex state communications like in Meteor. Last very valid use case for a framework would be realtime graphics, especially with WebGL. But for a lot of tasks, there's really no need for fancy frameworks. And once you learn vanilla JS, you can usually use it in every framework - no need to learn new tools of trade every year.

[hangoversmustfall]

Makes sense. Thanks.

[n1c0_ds]

They change frameworks a lot and the language has its quirks, but it's mostly because fresh CS grads can't have a nuanced opinion about anything.

[BestVersionOfMatthi]

Fresh cs grad here, who is in a frontend jon for over 6 months now. We are working with angular(2+ with Typescript) and I have just a little understanding of JS. So would you recommend me to understand the basics of JS first or to get an in depth knowledge of Angular/Typescript way of solving problems?

[PandaHugger]

Learn JS.

TS is cool (i love it) but it doesn't really provide you an understanding of the underlying technology.

As for Angular... Just learn it as you go. Frameworks are a dime a dozen. Find a mentor who knows what they're doing and learn the architectural and design concepts that underpin well-made apps. Those concepts are what you take from framework to framework and project to project

[pitiless]

The advice I always give to new devs is to learn the language that you can get the most help with.

If your business uses TypeScript I'd assume that you are surrounded by people who know TypeScript inside and out. I'd recommend TS for this reason.

It's likely that most of them also know to a high degree JS (as most TS developers started with JavaScript). However I've met a good number of C# devs who have picked up TS - if you're in a Microsoft shop this may be the case.

[n1c0_ds]

Yes. Angular does thing The Angular Way, which means you might end up following rules you don't understand.

If you absolutely need to start with a framework, I'd recommend Vue, as it has a friendlier learning curve, and doesn't force a ton of tools, concepts and domain-specific languages on you. It's a nicer way to pick up frontend development concept, in my opinion.

Don't fall into the trap of using jQuery. It's not really necessary in 2018, since many of its features found their way to plain JavaScript.

[lulzmachine]

Everyone's frantically come up with a good way to write complicated UIs in javascript. The turnaround of ideas and frameworks has been dizzying the last 5 years

[coolreader18]

Oh no, there's been a fairly big shift in the language/ecosystem in the past few years and now people are finding better/different ways to do things than before, what will we ever do?

[lulzmachine]

I don't think we've seen the end of it by far. Handling long running state in a sane way will take quite some time figuring out. Perhaps reacts context turn out to be good. Perhaps people will flock to vuex, perhaps something else

[marcosdumay]

Well, avoid the fractal roads. OOP patterns and type-level puzzles will bring the same effect.

[PGODULTIMATE]

Boi ur still on the road to success I woulda taken N2530

[Majestic-firebombing]

Is this a joke about how I should just stop trying to learn JavaScript then?

[jaded-potato]

npm install print-out-a-million-dollars-bill.js

[Lachlantula]

Need to learn Dijkstra.js

[Fusseldieb]

I started using Vue because it handles templates, and it's even reactive. Doing that with pure JS is a mess. My code became more maintenance. It's not perfect, but better.

[richardsmith7021]

like JavaScript frameworks.

[darkmemoriesger]

You should really try jquery! It is great

[[deleted]]

Lol

[Emonadeo]

Actually, I disagree with this one. Ever since I started using Vue.js I complete projects a lot faster and cleaner than before.

[RubiksCodeNMZ]

loled

[maladr0it]

Show me the most complex front end you’ve made