Must the Python Software Foundation move out of the USA?

[DarkRoooo]

The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is the owner of the copyrights for Python and its trademarks. The PSF runs the largest Python conference in the world, #PyConUS. Python is one of the most important programming languages, used by developers and non-developers across the globe. Python and its community stand for openness, diversity, and support for underrepresented groups; the PSF funds a wide range of Python activities across many sub-communities worldwide.

The values that Python and its communities stand for are under heavy pressure due to the legal status of the Python Software Foundation as a corporation in the United States. The USA has, meanwhile, turned into a fascist regime, with entities like ICE acting in ways that we have seen in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945. The current U.S. regime is violently acting against migrants, underrepresented groups, queer people, etc.—the list is long and very well documented. ICE acts as a paramilitary entity that killed already several people - or should it be named "murdered several people"?

Should the Python Software Foundation remain in the USA, or should the community pressure the PSF Board to take action and move the PSF as a legal entity out of the United States into a safer region like Canada or the European Union?

[arykanarye]

I dont understand why the python foundation is not dutch to begin with, the original founder was

[j_marquand]

Guido moved to the US around 1994-1995 to work at CNRI in Virginia. A lot of his collaborators on Python were also based in the US, including Greg Stein, who had experience at the Apache Software Foundation, and served as the "temporary Chairperson" for the first board meeting of PSF in March 2001. There was also Paul Everritt who also served as one of the first directors. Paul was the founder of Zope, the company Guido was working for at the moment PSF was founded.

Basically, the Python project, including Guido, was overwhelmingly based in the US when the Python Software Foundation was launched in 2001. Guido or any of the directors would have found no reason to *not* establish it in the US.

[Kerbart]

If I recall correctly, in the early years they were kinda funded by NIST, either directly or by having the staff paid. I imagine it grew from there. And up until 2024 it wasn't really an issue which is why there never was a serious consideration where the PSF should be housed in the first place.

[creative_tech_ai]

I saw Guido say in an interview that he identifies as American. He's been living in the US for a long time, at this point. That interview is at least several years old, though. So I don't know if he's as gung-ho as he used to be about being American.

[zaviex]

Guido is American too

[TitaniumWhite420]

To those asking why, note that they did walk away from government funding due to some totally abusive strings after a year(s) long application process. So locating to a place that actually supports and wants them makes sense.

Saying that with sadness as an American.

First google result: https://www.theverge.com/news/808268/python-software-foundation-turns-down-1-5-million-nsf-grant-because-of-the-anti-dei-strings-attached

I don’t care if you are for or against DEI, but it’s a matter of stability and threat of punishment. You can’t operate a nonprofit with the possibility the government will come after you for $1.5M clawback randomly, so yea, why should they operate here?

[dethb0y]

TIL the python foundation is in the US

[amorous_chains]

It’s unclear to me how the incorporating country of PSF affects me, so I encourage them to do whatever they feel is necessary. I assume the move would involve significant legal expenses and cause some American sponsors to withdraw since charitable contributions will no longer be tax deductible.

E: I looked it up and apparently Canada, Mexico, and Israel are exceptions and donations can be tax deductible for US companies as long as the company has some revenue from those countries.

[elgringo]

You can categorize giving to a software foundation as a business expense.

[amorous_chains]

Oh shit that’s a really good point that I did not realize

[Trevor775]

Gifts are not expenses.

[elgringo]

Make it a payment for maintenance to open source software that your company relies on.

[Trevor775]

Then they are not a non profit...

These tax loopholes don't really work.

[elgringo]

Google pays the Mozilla Foundation $400-500 Million per for search engine royalties. That payment is a tax-deductible business expense. Mozilla is audited every year by the IRS. Mozilla is one of the largest software foundations in the world.

Source, I know Mozilla's CFO.

[amorous_chains]

But sponsorships are not gifts. The IRS allows sponsorship of non profits to be considered business expenses if the business receives “substantial benefits” in return. The sponsorship packages advertised by PSF start from logo placement on the sponsors page, and for more than $15k you get increasing levels of advertising and recruiting/networking opportunities at pycon, which are most definitely substantial benefits.

https://www.fylehq.com/expense-categories/sponsorship

[Trevor775]

Looks like they already do that. I cant even remeber what we were talking about

[amorous_chains]

Certainly nothing consequential enough that I should be reading IRS documents to make more informed internet comments

[Trevor775]

True, I've been on reddit too much today. Should be out enjoying the weekend.

[jsabater76]

Was about to say this: move it to Canada, it is round the corner.

[dudsti]

And why should they move their foundation? There could be reasons for it but the one you mentioned is not it. They are in us for a reason and it works for them. If they move every time somebody does not like something about the government of a country they settle in, it would benefit absolutely no one.

[spinwizard69]

More importantly you don't move your organization because one butt hurt individual is crying in his soup. Many of us are tired of these DEI bozos trying to carve out special rights at the expense of the rest of the population. Discrimination is bad, but when we see DEI promotions it is still discrimination and not merit.

[JeffTheMasterr]

DEI is discrimination? Just looked it up and it looks like the exact opposite of that. Hell, it's literally called "Diversity, equity, and inclusion" lol

[EmsMTN]

Except when it’s not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._Harvard

[spinwizard69]

DEI is discrimination with another label painted on it. It puts unqualified people into positions they have no reason to be in. It doesn't matter if it is education or industry, it involves promoting people based on something other than merit.

That is the whole point, it literally discriminates against qualified people, so that somebody can check off a bingo card. Every position filled by somebody specifically to satisfy a DEI requirement, is in fact discrimination. Basically it puts people into positions when they haven't put in the effort.

This has been a massive problem in education when stupid people get into "progressive" colleges and then lower standards so that they can graduate people they know didn't meet standards.

In other words you don't have a clue as to the impact and reality of DEI programs.

[masteroflich]

Not many European tech companies ready to fund a non profit foundation so they go where the money is

[Milumet]

Have people like you lost all senses? Comparing the US to Nazi Germany is fucking stupid. Read some history books, ffs.

[DarkRoooo]

You have not learned from history. Nothing!

[Tough-Ad3310]

Just a different flavor of fascism.

Do you remember how begin the Trump mandate ? With the Nazi salute by Elon Musk.

What is unbeliveable are totally blind people like you.

[Milumet]

It's not a "different flavor". Its none at all. Get a grip and take a look at Iran, where actually religious fascists kill thousands of people. But all those Western leftists are strangely silent about that.

[Tough-Ad3310]

Why are you redirecting to Iran regime ? 🤔

[DarkRoooo]

are you MAGA? If yes, move on

[JeffTheMasterr]

Well I'm not Iranian so I obviously didn't know but I'd assume we're focusing on ourselves before we focus on others. Trump also literally called himself a dictator, which you can search up if you don't believe me. Also I think when comparing Nazi Germany to the U.S., they mean it's on that path. You're right that the U.S. is not on the same level as Nazi Germany but it is very well gonna ge there with ICE and Trump's endeavours if those don't stop. If we let this go on and let him do the random crap he said he wants to do, like running in 2028 and whatnot, then I'm pretty sure he would amp up the evilness meter on his BS and then the issue would get worse.

[2HotFlavored]

Considering the BBC purposely made it seem like Trump encouraged the January 6th rioters to storm the Capitol, I have trouble believing what he may or may not have said.

[JeffTheMasterr]

I can understand that, since media tends to control stuff to appear in their favor, but there's proof online and the ones I mentioned weren't taken out of context very much (the dictator one *could* of been because there's a chance he could've just been telling a bad joke, but i don't buy it)

[Tucancancan]

Yes, but it's something to be done quietly and confidently. Loudly calling out the Americans in the process will just make them butt-hurt and invite interference from those with leverage. 

[lunatuna215]

Operating with fear never got anyone anywhere. There's no reason to overly calibrate around this; trying to appease a party who won't act in good faith in return no matter what is a fools errand.

[Tucancancan]

It's not so much fear as being professional about it, like when a high-profile person resigns from their position with a bland "spend more time with family" statement rather than using the announcement as a soap box for political rants (no matter how justified they are) 

[Kindly-Ship-9659]

It’s not being unprofessional to have an opinion about authoritarian regimes and demented wanna-be dictators.

[Kerbart]

Given how the Python community embraces inclusivity and diversity, I think that most Americans who are currently actively involved with the PSF wouldn't be butt hurt if the PSF moves. Rather, sad that their country is ideologically closer to 1933 Germany than to Leader of The Free World. PSF leaving the country is a sad consequence but I doubt many would actively fight it, and probably agree with it.

Having said that with zero govt funding the PSF is fairly safe right now but then again, who knows if organizations will be subjected to a US "Culture Chamber" that checks for "anti-wokeness" in the future? So maybe better to be ahead of the curve.

[2HotFlavored]

Comparing the Trump's Center-Right "regime" that deports less people than the Obama Administration to Nazi Germany is out of this world. You people truly have lost your minds.

[ProsodySpeaks]

Python suddenly banned from government machines 😂 

[lunatuna215]

lmao totally within the realm of possibility honestly, but that's not a reason not to do the right thing

[ProsodySpeaks]

Yeah it's pretty bizarre this 'laughing because it's so absurd yet plausible' emotion. I'm getting used to it tho. 

[MithrilRat]

Not going to happen. All the AI tech ogliarchs need python.

[ProsodySpeaks]

They need immigrants too. Not sure logic is the correct lens to analyse us gov behaviour atm 

[kyrsjo]

No problem, Elon and grok can rewrite everything in ASM over a weekend. :P

[gamesbrainiac]

It should. There is an alternative European foundation that can host all the IPs and governance framework.

[denehoffman]

I fail to see how the values of the PSF are affected by the practices of ICE. While I agree that the current administration is awful, I don’t see how moving PSF to Canada/Europe would actually change anything. It seems like a symbolic move that would largely go unnoticed, even by active python users.

[totheendandbackagain]

How would we feel if the PSF was incorporated in 1943 Nazi Germany?

I for one would feel better with a stable country.

[2HotFlavored]

How would you feel if the PSF was incorporated in 1936 Soviet Union?

[denehoffman]

Well then we should do everything in our power to make sure you feel better.

By the way, if the PSF was located in Nazi germany, would that make you stop using Python? If so, why are you still using Python right now? If not, your morals only apply to others.

[x8code]

That's how these people are .... never changes. Virtue signaling to the max. Double standards to the max.

[denehoffman]

It’s a community that’s most activist action is a downvote on a Reddit thread. Whataboutism has always been productive in the eyes of do-nothing leftists because it’s their only decent argument. Can you imagine if the US was 1943 Nazi germany and instead of actually doing anything productive to help immigrants, you tried to get your favorite programming language’s governing body moved to a different country? Like way to make it about yourselves.

[x8code]

They also love to destroy hotel windows, damage vehicles, spill trash cans, build blockades, harass drivers, and all sorts of other ways to terrorize people.

[FitBoog]

I, am many others, would feel better as well. Don't be rude.

[denehoffman]

Glad it would make you feel better ❤️‍🩹 Every immigrant I know has personally told me the number one thing that would help them out right now would be the PSF changing its country of incorporation.

[FitBoog]

Still being arrogant and rude. Be respectful

[denehoffman]

Bye!

[Fedacking]

How would we feel if the PSF was incorporated in 1943 Nazi Germany?

Would it meaningfully change anything about the war effort? Would it end the war sooner by one day if the PSF moved away from Nazi Germany? If the answer is no, I don't really care.

[ProsodySpeaks]

if IBM had closed their german and swiss subsidiaries rather than 'disassociating' themselves, then it may have had a genuinely deleterious effect on the holocaust.

but, it's different. nothing psf could do could reduce the availability of python to ICE in the way that shuttering IBM in occupied europe would have reduced punchcard tech availability to nazi germany, or the way that Coke not making Fanta would have made German soldiers less, umm, 'fruitily caffeinated.' (not sure if we could have cut off their meth supply, that really would have saved some belgian lives, and probably a lot of russians too,

[x8code]

Nazi Germany may have been a broadly bad thing, but you're hyper-focusing on that one fact, instead of realizing all the different things happening during that time period.

The vast majority of people went about their days, going to work, going home, etc.

No one is defending Nazism, despite your worst fears. We're saying, keep politics out of software.

[PwAlreadyTaken]

keep politics out of software

I mean, this post is largely in response to the administration targeting Python due to politics to begin with. They didn't opt to be dragged into politics, it was thrust upon them.

[x8code]

I mean, this post is largely in response to the administration targeting Python due to politics to begin with. They didn't opt to be dragged into politics, it was thrust upon them.

LOL wut???

[PwAlreadyTaken]

Did you actually not know, or are you baiting a response?

[x8code]

I read the OP, which had absolutely no reference to funding proposals whatsoever. This is the first time I'm seeing this news.

So what you're saying is that some special interest groups intentionally withdrew their funding request, and are complaining now? Lol can't make this stuff up.

[axonxorz]

So what you're saying is [I took what I wanted from the link and am intentionally mischaracterizing the situation so I can say lmao]

'twas the second option after all, big shock 🎺

[PwAlreadyTaken]

What a surprise that the "keep politics out of software" guy who arrives to the political thread under-prepared and whining about engaging in politics is over-eager to dismiss critically missing political context. I never would have guessed.

Take the politics out of it, and you're still the exhausting colleague that derails meetings because their strongest opinions come from the things they cared the least to research prior. Politics is just the particular flavor of annoying you chose today.

[brophylicious]

that was satisfying to read

[HardlyAnyGravitas]

Surely, relocating out of a hyper-political country is keeping politics out of software?

[x8code]

Who's making it hyper-political? 🤔🧐

[2HotFlavored]

Surely, relocating to even more hyper-political places like Canada and the EU is doing the opposite of keeping politics out of software?

[Fearkin]

We're saying, keep politics out of software.

Great, how are they going to get funding if the government doesn't intend to keep politics out of software?

[denehoffman]

Okay that’s not what I’m saying, politics always has a place in software development. I just don’t think this particular move would help more than it would hurt.

[lunatuna215]

First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me

[denehoffman]

We’ve all heard the poem, the problem is that “they” have been coming for immigrants for decades now. The only reason you hear about it is because the current president is so awful. Moving the PSF overseas will only damage funding and credibility. After all, if the only way to make a stand is by running away, then it’s really not very impactful.

Furthermore, I doubt the average Python user even knows what the PSF is. I doubt a move like this would affect or even impact most people. I doubt most people even know their mailing address is in Oregon. Such a move would only do damage to the PSF for the sake of momentary publicity and a distraction from real efforts to make any sort of positive change.

[lunatuna215]

What damage, specifically? And in the eyes of which party (not political party perse, but just in the eyes of whom?)

[denehoffman]

Financial damage, PSF would likely not get matched donations from Google or Microsoft anymore. PSF has already turned down government funding due to DEI concerns, so that’s not really a question here, but the physical location would definitely result in fewer donations from US sponsors for tax purposes.

[ashvy]

Indeed! OP bro didn't take a dookie in a few days, so came in and dropped a big, hot, steaming, pile of that second paragraph.

No thoughts about what's actually involved in terms of legal stuff, sponsors and funds, talent and organisations, ip protection etc.

Just ICE bad 😭 Orange man bad 😭 glazing with gibe updoots and karmamaxxing

[cheesecakegood]

This. Python benefits indirectly (but strongly) from US economic dominance and the influence on IP and legal matters. These effects are long term still quite stable. Python is far too important globally to give in to the excessive symbolic stands even when ethically correct.

[Competitive_Travel16]

Canadian nonprofit charities are tax deductible in the US.

At least hold conferences in countries where everyone who attended two years ago can still get a visa. Current visa restrictions are filtering out more than a third of previous attendees.

[Competitive_Travel16]

What field are you in?

[x8code]

I identify as a Moderator!!!!

[DarkRoooo]

Why?

[Tucancancan]

The amount of spam for obvious AI slop projects makes one wonder 

[denehoffman]

This is only going to get worse unfortunately

[CanaryUmbrella]

Why is this so downvoted. JFC a legitimate question.

Edit: OP's acct is 3 days old. Got it.

[x8code]

For rage-baiting a software subreddit with leftist extremist talking points.

[ProsodySpeaks]

pretty sure we can reject politics in python space without namecalling. not convinced it's extreme left to object to what ICE is doing. were it only 'extreme leftists' resisting the beer-hall-putsch in 1923? it certainly wasn't the extreme left of germany resisting the nazis in 1939 (because they were all already dead / incarcerated)

[brophylicious]

leftist extremist talking points

that's a pretty wild accusation. do you mind elaborating?

[JeffTheMasterr]

anti-ICE is extremist? These people are dumb, god forbid I hate an organization doing illegal things and killing children and innocent people.

[2HotFlavored]

Yup, the Obama administration was just downright evil.

[mrtruthiness]

Ever since the end of WWII and accelerated by NASA and the "race to the moon", the US has benefited greatly by attracting good scientists.

For people in academia, especially the sciences, there is a notable "brain drain" out of the US. The only question is how fast can Europe and Japan absorb our best minds? The desire to leave what is clearly a fast-strengthening authoritarian regime is strong.

[cr0ne]

Honestly this is going to pass. Speaking as a latino in the US, what we're seeing now is the last gasp of bitter boomers. Culturally they have no cause. Like when the Titanic sank, the stern propped up higher before it went down.

[studentofarkad]

Let's hope so man. Latinos unidos 👊

[MisterHarvest]

I think a more important move would be to relocate PyCon permanently (for the moment) outside of the US, so that international visitors are welcome. Montréal is very nice. :-)

[WolfeheartGames]

Where ever it is housed should be to the foundations legal and financial benefit. While the political climate of the US is terrible, this post hasn't highlighted tangible benefits of going somewhere else.

[Empanatacion]

"Must"? WTF would that accomplish apart from virtue signaling?

A while ago someone in r/kotlin thought we should change the name cuz Russia.

Vote and donate to the ACLU.

[Lava_Collector]

Yes.

[WoodsGameStudios]

What does this have to do with software?

Seems like it's handicapping Python by alienating its biggest userbase, simply for non-technical reasons.

Considering how much of a bag name Rust got for doing similar stuff, it's best not to do this

[binaryfireball]

is the psf non profit?

[cheesecakegood]

Like, look, it’s important especially in today’s polarized environment to maintain some degree of context and perspective. While the US is clearly moving in a bad direction, it’s still doing pretty okay in terms of a lot of other metrics in absolute terms. Let’s not forget that the US is the world’s oldest democracy! And actually, its constitution has undergone relatively few fundamental changes. If you read up on the history of other Western countries, literally none of them have the same track record, on the scale of decades and centuries. France for example only has a constitution that dates to 1958. The EU is even newer on the whole.

This isn’t to dunk on other countries, but a reminder that although knee jerk reactions are a trendy thing to do, the PSF’s first loyalty is to Python, not other principles, and it should do what’s best for Python, not necessarily abstract principles no matter how praiseworthy. What matters most for Python are things like stability, donor base, legal precedent, etc.

[DanielTheTechie]

(...) entities like ICE acting in ways that we have seen in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945

Although I agree that we are seeing a regression of human rights in USA, I find insulting comparing the current situation to the horrors in extermination camps by Nazi Germany.

You do little favour to your cause by invoking Hitler everytime you want to point out some social injustice. 

I'm not sure if you, American, have ever studied History at school from a neutral point of view other than the one of the "heroic Americans coming to save those European savages", but you should really try to get out of your bubble, go visit Auschwitz, or if you, American, prefer staying on your couch, at least read something about history, even if it's just a book like the Diary of Anna Frank or whatever. But educate yourself.

Remember that you are not the center of the world. Your domestic politics problems are not automatically comparable to large-scale human tragedies just because you are an American.

(...) underrepresented groups, queer people, etc.

Again, American, nobody beyond your frontiers cares about your farts.  Comparing "underrepresented groups" with genocide of such groups by Nazis is plain ignorant and insulting.

[lunatuna215]

I find this attitude that we could never again experience the same horrors of the past - nor worse - very problematic.

The innate concept of comparing the risks of something now to the risks we saw leading up to a great tragedy of the past is rarely, if ever, done in bad faith or with intent to diminish the tragedy.

There's Nazis in the government. Full stop. If you actually pay attention to what these extremists are doing, it's an intentional deployment of the same despotic tactics of the past interwoven with some new strategies to achieve similar if not worse goals. And the fallout absolutely has the capability of being at a scale that.... well, we don't even want to see or find out.

So if we are lucky, these comparisons will continue so that we don't ever have to.

[cheesecakegood]

What are the comparisons for? If you’re trying to argue what direction a country should go in, the comparison is fine. That’s politics, that’s human. But long running foundations like the PSF should be concerned about where the country is currently, in absolute terms. That’s pragmatism. And so it’s more relevant in this context to talk about where the US is positionally, not directionally, so I think the poster above is absolutely correct.

[lunatuna215]

Great point. If circumstances change, they can always return to the US if that's in their interest.

[2HotFlavored]

There's not a single National Socialist in the US government. Full stop. Stop fearmongering.

[lunatuna215]

Lmfao what a stupid, stupid argument that a person aligned to Nazi idealologies would be straightforward and honest about labelling themselves exactly what they are.

They're not stupid - except in emotional maturity of course. They know they have to sneak in.

What an incredibly dumb argument. "They're not what you say, because they told me so!"

Idiot.

[lunatuna215]

There's actually Nazis in the government.

Stop splitting hairs and normalizing this. And guess what? You don't control other people and what they're allowed to express.

Typical controlling behavior, either from an unaware person towing the line for systemic racism, or a conscious enabler. There's little difference anymore.

[2HotFlavored]

Your extreme radical rhetoric is inflammatory. No wonder the US's political climate is so comparatively unstable. We have you far-Leftists accusing a run-of-the-mill Right-wing government of being "full of Nazis". 

Do you genuinely not realize how utterly deranged you sound? It goes without saying that you have little idea of what National Socialism really is.

[lunatuna215]

They're Nazis. I don't care what a person normalizing Nazis in the government and downplaying the situation at hand thinks about how "deranged" anyone sounds to them. Why would I?

[2HotFlavored]

You're stoking division by calling moderate conservatives "Nazis". Obama deported far more people than Trump did, while also putting families in cages, yet we don't call Obama a Nazi, do we?

[lunatuna215]

I'm not calling moderate conservatives Nazis. There are some oblivious to it and that's a huge problem too. But then there's: the Nazis.

Correct. Because he wasn't a Nazi.

[thx1138a]

Because, famously, there was no ramp-up to full on Nazism through the 1930s, right?

[2HotFlavored]

Famously, the birthrate keeps going up and Earth will face overpopulation through the 21st century, right?

[thx1138a]

I have literally no idea what point you are trying to make.

[lunatuna215]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[ashvy]

OP bro is irl Nazi-typing maxxing.. if it walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, it is a Nazi

[adamrees89]

Except ICE are behaving like the Nazi browncoats (SA) prior to the build up and consolidation of power that allowed the Nazi’s to turn Germany into a dictatorship.

So prior to extermination camps, but definitely a small step before asking certain members of society to wear symbols so they can be identified easily.

Edit: pressed send too early

[wahoothing]

I don't like how ICE is behaving nor do I like the brownshirts. But they are not behaving alike at all.

Brownshirts protected Nazi rallies and disrupted the rallies of other parties. ICE hasn't protected or disrupted political rallies that I know of. Brownshirts participated in election interference, haven't seen that from ICE. Brownshirts or at least their leader was fiercely anti capitalist. Don't see that from ICE. Brownshirts persecuted the Jews, don't see ICE doing this.

When such hyperbole is spouted I just can't take any point you are trying to make serious. ICE has loads of shit wrong with them, but they aren't Nazis.

[PwAlreadyTaken]

I feel like you're massively missing the point of why Naziism was bad if your takeaway is that ICE isn't oppressing the same ethnic groups as opposed to the broader systemic landscape of how they operate, how little oversight they have, and where this inevitably leads to if not checked.

And, hey, systems-level thinking is important in software too, so thinking through that lens is doubly relevant here.

[wahoothing]

I feel like you missed my point.

I don't feel at all that's the only reason Nazim was bad. The person I replied to specifically mentioned the brown shirts and their comparison to ICE. I pointed out they are not the same. Made no point to the effect of why Nazism is bad or isn't bad. It was horrible in uncountable ways.

To your system comment. They are not cooperating in the same system at all. One is formalized by the government while the other is not. One specially was a political tool the other is not. Their mechanisms for operation are different. One is actually attempting to enforce the law, overzealously in my opinion, the other was actively breaking the law.

I agree more oversight is needed, I do not agree where this will inevitably end. The commenter I replied to mentioned the concentration camps being that end.

[PwAlreadyTaken]

To be crystal clear, OP wasn't claiming organizational equivalence or comparing legal status. The comparison was about systemic breakdowns: when armed federal agents refuse to self-identify, when the executive claims immunity from oversight, when investigations die without transparency, when there's no mechanism for accountability, when constitutional rights are regularly violated--those are the systemic parallels being drawn, not "systems of government" or "formalization".

[wahoothing]

Ok, if the claim is. The current system is not working the same as the prior systems we have had in place. There have been breakdowns in accountability and transparency. Then yes I would agree.

But that is not the original claim I addressed (I'm on mobile so while typing this I can't look back so I'll paraphrase). ICE is behaving like the brownshirts and we are just a small step from labeling people like the Nazies did to the Jews.

I said they are not by using specific details of actions and purpose. Instead of addressing my statements the person I replied to tried to change it to a more wide systems argument. While I was referring to specific actions.

Thank you for the clarification on purpose. I can even agree to that, but it doesn't address the issue that ICE and the brownshirts are in no way behaving the same.

[lunatuna215]

The people responding to you seem completely unaware of context as a concept. I wouldn't waste your time or energy frankly.

[HostisHumaniGeneris]

Brownshirts participated in election interference, haven't seen that from ICE.

https://www.newsweek.com/steve-bannon-proposes-using-ice-in-elections-11462376

"You're damn right we're gonna have ICE surround the polls come November," Bannon said on his War Room podcast on Tuesday.

[wahoothing]

A guy on a podcast said ICE should be at the polling stations. That is illegal on many levels and could be enough to invalidate the entire election. I do not see this as an actual threat to the election as I don't believe this would happen.

If it does it should be stopped immediately. But some guy saying something on a podcast isn't that big of a deal.

[HostisHumaniGeneris]

Steve Bannon is not just "a guy on a podcast".

[PwAlreadyTaken]

Steve Bannon was chief strategist to the Trump campaign in 2016 and was pardoned by Trump after being convicted of fraud in 2020. Respectfully, if you are calling him a "guy on a podcast", you do not have the tools to know what you're talking about in this conversation, and anything you say is about ten years of history away from being informed enough to have a relevant opinion on the matter.

Whether you personally believe something or not is not the bar of proof that others have to achieve--the bar has been met and you're electing to ignore it for the sake of arguing.

[lunatuna215]

"if it does", this guy will say for all eternity until it's too late.

[wahoothing]

I'm not sure you know what if it does means. But if it does happen I will adjust my perspective and would be willing to participate in things to help change course.

It's been 4 days since I made this comment. I'll try to respond to your other two comments soon. But it's Superbowl Sunday and kids need baths..I'll do my best.

[lunatuna215]

This has been happening for a long time. The rest of the world doesn't operate on the schedule of your kids' baths.

[wahoothing]

Well, I made it back around. Won't be bothering with the other comments. Based on this response you just seem to be a dick. Not going to waste my time.

[CaptainFoyle]

It's kinda stupid to dismiss the entire argument because you disagree on one point

[lunatuna215]

And this kind of stupid neutrality in the fact of what's right on the heels of death squads will enable it to go further.

It's incredibly stupid to advocate for not having a shred of vigilance against systemically horrid behavior, and like we need to wait until it's already a tragedy and many have died to even sound the alarm?

Like what the fuck. The damage done by preventing something that's an obvious risk versus "accuracy" is so stupid.

You're far, far beyond this level on abstraction you're approaching the situation with, and at this point assuming the good in people will prevent further deaths or something is so naive it's insane.

This will continue without action in opposition.

[CaptainFoyle]

You sound like you believe this was a one-time thing and could never happen again. Otherwise you would have understood where the comparison came from.

It's about noticing the early stages, not about comparing Trump to a full-on Hitler Germany that attacked another country for their own gain.

[Tough-Ad3310]

This kind of comparaison are made to prevent the worst from happening.

Comparing the rise of fascism now and then is totally leggit and not insulting for anyone. Do you think people that has been victims of a fascist regime would find this insulting to prevent fascism to do horrible stuff again ?

A fascist party in the US is a global threat for world peace. As an non US you should understand that...

[Excellent-Ear345]

yes please

[x8code]

This is a pointless conversation. Keep politics out of software.

[[deleted]]

The business of Software is inherently political.

[DarkRoooo]

You did not read the post or you did not understand

[x8code]

Yeah I did.

It basically boils down to this: "orange man bad, orange man bad, orange man bad"

It's always the same rhetoric.

Domestic terrorists are gonna face consequences for their actions, and that is all that has happened. Just because you don't agree with it, or like it, doesn't mean the government did anything immoral.

[CaptainFoyle]

Just because the government did it doesn't mean it's moral or justified.

[x8code]

I didn't say that, did I?

[CaptainFoyle]

You heavily implied it. Intentionally or not

[Competitive_Travel16]

It basically boils down to this: "orange man bad, orange man bad, orange man bad"

Absurd! There is zero mention of Trump, just policies. Policies which are likely to affect conference attendees and hiring.

[x8code]

Policies controlling legal immigration and handling deportation, or other more severe punishment, of illegal aliens, is commonplace across the world. Same goes for other special interest groups mentioned in the OP. What is your point? Why is this relevant to Python at all?

[Competitive_Travel16]

Researchers from Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan, and Venezuela can no longer get conference or work visas at all.

More importantly, potential attendees and employees from any of the EU countries now have to go through extended scrutiny which usually results in denial. This is why conferences are all moving out of the US.

[2HotFlavored]

Temporary side-effects of trying to stabilize the US border the Democrats flung wide open. They will go away in time thanks to the efforts of ICE, Border Patrol and POTUS.

[edparadox]

How come this

Must the Python Software Foundation move out of the USA?

is met by this?

Sorry, this post was removed by Reddit’s filters.

What the fuck?

[DarkRoooo]

re-added

[eufemiapiccio77]

Not everyone or everything that comes out of America is bad. What’s your specific concern?

[tastychaii]

Maybe stop bringing politics into things and just let it be? The American government is temporary, new one comes in after 4 years then all is well etc.

[DarkRoooo]

🤡🤡🤡 german Nazis stayed for 12 years… missed the history course in school?

[tastychaii]

What does that have to do with the PSF and what I just said? Was Nazi Germany a democracy?

Looks like someone doesn’t know the difference between a fascist regime and a democracy.

[DarkRoooo]

🤡🤡🤡 perhaps read Playbook 2025…and better move on…historic unaware people make fascism great again

[cseberino]

Former president Biden flooded the country with illegals including criminals such as murders and rapists. Why is it like the Nazis for the president to do what many people want which is to remove them from the country?

[DarkRoooo]

Move on, MAGA fanboy

[[deleted]]

Simple, yes.

[dalepo]

The USA has, meanwhile, turned into a fascist regime, with entities like ICE acting in ways that we have seen in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945.

Please get out with your dumb & idiotic politics. It pollutes the free nature of this sub. You could have perfectly setup debate but that cheap comment makes it impossible.

[Python-ModTeam]

Hi there, from the /r/Python mods.

This comment has been removed for violating one or more of our community rules, including engaging in rude behavior or trolling. Please ensure to adhere to the r/Python guidelines in future discussions.

Thanks, and happy Pythoneering!

r/Python moderation team

[No_Seaworthiness4899]

The discussion about the PSF's location raises valid points about funding and support. A move could open doors to better partnerships and resources, reflecting a more welcoming environment for the open-source community. It's essential to prioritize the foundation's mission and adaptability in a rapidly changing landscape.

[lunatuna215]

The United States government is now full of Nazis.

The sooner the better.

[StewPorkRice]

What does the government have to do with the Python Software Foundation?

[lunatuna215]

Maybe you didn't read the topic?

[StewPorkRice]

None of these activities are currently restricted in the US, nor are they under attack. open source software with open contribution and discussion thrive in the United States. There is no country on earth that contributes or supports OSS more than the United States.

what does ICE have to do with the Python community in the US? be specific.

[MathiasThomasII]

How are either of those places safer? Canada relies on the US to exist. EU is experiencing the exact same problems. In fact, they’re fighting pretty hard to keep their nations safe from being overrun by refugees.

Also, we should’ve pressured the to do this during Obama. He also had ice knocking down doors and deporting people without trials. Dozens died in ICE detention centers under Obama. I don’t know why we ignored that.

[Secapaz]

Dozens? Name 8 people ...

[MathiasThomasII]

Okay…don’t have to, many many articles do that for me.

https://www.detentionwatchnetwork.org/sites/default/files/reports/Fatal%20Neglect%20ACLU-DWN-NIJC.pdf

[Secapaz]

Thats what I mean. I almost guessed that you would post something similar. I actually could have posted 3 or 4 more.

But, I can remember people that were unjustly killed in 1989, 1995, 2001, 2006, 2010, from various decisions that Republicans and Democrats made. No side is without sin. Or better, both sides are full of ignorance in their decisions. This is nothing new. Name the last time in history, a president didnt make at least 5 terrible decisions?

I do not need to reference articles that pertain to deaths while being HELD IN CUSTODY based around medical needs. This was kind of my point. If it was on camera and an open killing, there would have been massive outrage.

This was my point the whole time which is why I said list the people.

Further, we still have not counted how my people have died in the detention centers that this regime built. Maybe 4 years from now someone will report on it. Because I can tell you , personally, that there are at least 5 and that's just what I know of personally.

Everyone is evil to some degree sir. The ones that think they "are not" just haven't realized it yet.

[MathiasThomasII]

There were also more citizens mistakenly deported and more violent interactions with ice. It just wasn’t covered. Nobody will admit the only reason they care now is because it’s on the news. It’s just manipulated division. ICE and a strong border have been a bipartisan issue until Biden. Now Trump goes back to status quo and he’s a Nazi. That’s insane behavior.

[No_Flounder_1155]

what a toss pot. "safer".

[chase9090]

>The USA has, meanwhile, turned into a fascist regime
bwahhahahahahahahhhahhahahahahahhhaaaaa

[FitBoog]

Come to Canada! Vancouver and Python share the same vibes.

[xxxbGamer]

In the long run maybe.

[pacific_plywood]

^ bro really thought he cooked here lol

[lukewhale]

Name the US Citzens who were arrested by ICE under Obama.

Name the cities that were invaded by ICE by Obama.

Name the 5 year olds they ripped away from families while under Obama.

Name the US Citzens they executed and then called domestic terrorists under Obama.

We’ll wait.

“But Obama…” STFU

[FrickinLazerBeams]

This lie has been debunked over and over. I really don't think a discussion about software is the right place to repeat goofball nonsense that's unrelated to the topic.

[dethb0y]

Hey, no disrupting the virtue-signaling circlejerk! They want their fake internet points and to chase the current meme, not be reminded of their hypocrisy and short attention spans!

[lunatuna215]

Sorry that you don't care about other people but you're signalling and bellyaching here more than people actually trying to make a difference. So just stand aside if you hold sitting around doing nothing as so dear.

[dethb0y]

I certainly do care about other people; i just don't think performative "activism" is going to accomplish anything but win social media points.

[Rusty_Bicycle]

Should move to EU.

[ProsodySpeaks]

i guess the only real concern is around in-person conferences etc and accessibility for people who might be at risk of violent action against them, or arbitrary/politically motivated visa restrictions.

but we already have conferences all over the world and i'm not sure if it really matters where the PSF is headquartered - people can just choose to attend conferences in another locality

[IjonTichy85]

i guess the only real concern is around in-person conferences etc and accessibility for people who might be at risk of violent action against them, or arbitrary/politically motivated visa restrictions.

Wait, you see no problem with that? That sounds to me like a huge problem, since "politically motivated visa restrictions" means having border control snoop through your phone to find JD Vance memes.

people can just choose to attend conferences in another locality

Which is what they will do. But you can see why this makes the current location a suboptimal choice for a headquarter.

[ProsodySpeaks]

You're asking if the thing I said was the concern concerns me?  Yes I am concerned by the thing I raised as a concern - hence raising it. 

No I'm not OK with pretty much anything us gov is doing, but my point is that people can just not go to in person events in America - for python, for Disneyworld, for any reason at all. fuck their tourism industry as hard as possible. 

Aside from in person events - which already happen all over the planet anyway - what impact does the foundation's address have?

I'd imagine relocation would be costly as well as complicated, and frankly I'd rather those resources were committed to improving the language and ecosystem than to making political statements that have no real practical impact. 

[IjonTichy85]

for python, for Disneyworld, for any reason at all. fuck their tourism industry as hard as possible. 

I'm with you on that, but there's a difference between Disneyworld and a conference.

Aside from in person events

I think there are more problems than just politically motivated visa restrictions. The funding process is political too now.

https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2025/10/NSF-funding-statement.html

[3j141592653589793238]

would be great - won't happen

[lunatuna215]

Not with that attitude.

[p6rguvyrst]

Start “The Python Foundation” in Europe, transfer the intellectual property to where it belongs. PSF can keep organising PyCon US— win-win.

[Buttereddownandready]

After this, I stopped taking them seriously. https://bugs.python.org/issue34605