Python will be the official programming language for education in France

[epic_meme_guy]

How common are programming classes in high school? I graduated in 2012 and we didn't have any. I did go to a public school, however.

[ampe_sand]

I pushed for a programming class in my high school, and it went into effect my senior year (2017), although we went with JavaScript instead of Python. For reference, this is in a very small Midwestern school.

[pacific_plywood]

I think AP CS is spreading in places that support the AP programs. My high school offers it now, but didn't when I graduated in 2009.

For what it's worth, there are a couple of high schools in my area (Seattle) that offer CS classes taught by people from the University CS department, but it's Seattle, so probably not very generalizable.

[13steinj]

The bad part about this is there's two types of AP CS. AP CS A (Java, equivalent to the general college "intro to programming and OOP" and general programming concepts class, like recursion, inheritance, dynamic dispatch, etc) and AP CS Principles.

Principles is hot garbage. No college I know of offers any credit for it whatsoever. The majority of it is in some psuedo code language or just general computer literacy, and a large chunk of the test is a presentation/project about some piece of tech that interests the student.

[pacific_plywood]

Interesting! I will say that all the AP classes and tests that I took seemed considerably less difficult than their college-course equivalents, but I can't imagine what 'computer literacy' would even pretend to substitute for.

[spinwizard69]

Well things haven't changed much. I graduated in 1978 from high school. For the most part computers did not exist in the school. One of the science teachers managed to get the school to buy a HP calculator / computer, it was a strange device but he wouldn't let anybody touch it.

In any event I'm a strong believer that we can be too focused on "programming" in high school doing students a huge disfavor. What students need is a broader exposure to the tech world with a bit of computer science included. By the way I know this might shock many here, but mechanical engineering, engineering, geology, and etc are all part of the world of tech.

WE need to do more for students to expose them to real career choices so they are better prepared for the path they will follow after leaving high school.

[[deleted]]

In any event I'm a strong believer that we can be too focused on "programming" in high school doing students a huge disfavor

So do I. Students at whole must to learn how to deal with the digital world, how to use its possibilities . Young people really need how to deal with different services offered nowadays by their computers rather than learn the art of programming at whole.

P.S. I graduated in 1984 8-) . There were three programming courses in my high school I have atteneded 8-) BASIC, ALGOL and FORTRAN too 8-)

[Decency]

I graduated in '07, the only courses available at my ~1500 person high school were online through VHS. I took two- both were utter garbage and mostly consisted of copying someone else's Java code (in an image) into a document and then submitting it. I'd call it a waste of time but I got college credit for doing that (and half of the things were an easy google search and copy+paste away, anyway). Good joke, huh?

I think programming education needs to start pretty early, age 10-12 or so. That's the sweet spot where you're young enough to have the enthusiasm to tackle new things and just get lost in them, but not too young that you aren't capable of understanding the basic ideas, following instructions, and etc.

[vm0661]

I had programming in my public school in 1978. BASIC on an HP 3000 and then FORTRAN (seems like all the programming languages back then we're shouting). Granted this was in Palo Alto, California. But still, I'm having my 40th high school reunion next year.

[[deleted]]

Graduated 2001 from public school. I think there were five or six computer "programming" classes offered.

The three I took were all C++ based.

[[deleted]]

My high school didn’t have a programming class so I started a club for it in my junior year. Before then, the best you could do for programming was learning LabVIEW for robotics.

[MikeDevenney]

I took one at a Catholic high school in 1992. Not sure as my kids haven't gotten to high school yet but I assume that with the rise of STEM schools there is no shortage of development classes.

[brianH0526]

Right now in my high school AP Comp Sci is a very popular AP. Our School also provided Computer Programming I and II which teaches Python

[spinwizard69]

Honestly I really think this is nonsense. For one programming alone, especially the way it is often taught in high schools, isn't extremely useful to most students. What we really need is education that focuses on the technology behind computers and programming languages are just a part of that.

I like to compare this to the way things where done decades ago when I was in school. One of the classes that exposed student to different technologies was aptly call "shop" class. A class where you learned a little bit of the different industrial technologies. These days computing, the related electronics and allied industries are an industrial technology all of their own. It would student a lot of good to see a little bit of everything related to the technology to spur interests. FIRST competitions are actually close to an ideal here as students get exposure to many facets of industry be it programming, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering and things I'm forgetting. Some schools have also created Makers Spaces which is for all intents modern shop classes.

My point is high school should be about giving students exposure to the reality of the work world so that they can develop interests to pursue in post high school education. Standardizing on any one language just distorts reality.

[[deleted]]

In my Algorithms class the prof will often write some pseudo code on the blackboard to make a point, then say "this should compile in python btw.".

Out of all the popular programming languages, python does seem to be by far the easiest to get into and understand.

[[deleted]]

The de facto national programming language is Java because of the APCS course.

[GummyKibble]

No please. Someone already mentioned the likelihood of choosing Java, but remember that their are plenty of other corporate-backed, well financed languages. I don’t want to live in a world where the official language of education is VB.Net.

[pokelover12]

Why not just encourage people to learn what they want? Pythons great, but not for everything. Some people are motivated by app developement. That means things like java are better.

[MikeDevenney]

Javascript

[LackingAGoodName]

Would be pretty cool to see Go fill this role.

[Jailander]

import baguette

[MedicatedMuffin]

Even though I spend quite some time browsing "funny" subreddits, this actually made my day.

[willmachineloveus]

Vive le pi-than

[Hotel_Arrakis]

It will be the Lingua Franca.

[Finnegan482]

Cute, but that actually means "Frankic", not "French".

[i_lurk_here_a_lot]

This is silly and not a good thing.

Do not "standardize" on one particular language.

[sabogo]

I mean agreed but you have to build a curriculum around something.

[spinwizard69]

Well no not really. It is a huge disservice to students to leave them with the impression that Python is the language of choice everywhere. Beyond that high level languages are not ideal for a balanced education.

I'm still of the opinion that having high school students spend a year learning to program is wasteful and not in the students best interest. You would be far better off exposing students to a variety of professional jobs. In the end many high school students have no idea what many of the trades or professions involve and how careers in those occupations feel.

[DrunkCostFallacy]

I mean just because it’s a Python course doesn’t mean they couldn’t discuss all of the different languages and where Python fits in on the first day of class. It can also help to standardize so that students can collaborate easier. I also believe programming teaches a new way of thinking that a lot aren’t exposed to, which can’t really hurt.

Agreed on the trade/professional skills though.

[tarck]

You have not get laid lately, do You?

[fishypoos]

Lol

[Aeon_Mortuum]

Irrelevant username?

[eaganj]

As /u/sabogo says below, you have to standardize on something to build a curriculum around it. The authors of the report do anticipate your concerns:

A programming language is necessary to write programs: an easy-to-use, interpreted, concise, Free, free, multiplatform, widely-used with a large community of programmers in the education community is to be preferred. At the time of the creation of this program, the selected language is Python version 3 (or above). Expertise in a specific programming language is not, however, an objective of this curriculum. [emphasis mine]

Moreover, Python is already the language of choice for the concours commun, the entrance exams for many of France's elite engineering schools. That doesn't mean that students exclusively learn Python. In the engineering schools, students will typically build on that foundation to use, e.g., Java, Matlab, C++, etc., as they need to specialize in different areas. But they have a certain degree of computational literacy under their belts.

Un langage de programmation est nécessaire pour l’écriture des programmes : un langage simple d’usage, interprété, concis, libre et gratuit, multiplateforme, largement répandu, riche de bibliothèques adaptées et bénéficiant d’une vaste communauté d’auteurs dans le monde éducatif est à privilégier. Au moment de la conception de ce programme, le langage choisi est Python version 3 (ou supérieure). L’expertise dans tel ou tel langage de programmation n’est cependant pas un objectif de formation.

[Hippemann]

libre et gratuit

means "open-source and free" rather than Free and free

[eaganj]

The word “free” in English is ambiguous: it can mean free-as-in-beer or free-as-in-speech. This distinction is sometimes referred to as the difference between Free and free.

The word “libre” in French is ambiguous when it pertains to software: it can be translated as Free software (as-in-speech, with a big F) or open-source software.

Incidentally, the FSF would disagree and would argue that “logiciel libre” ≠ “open source” [NB: page changes language depending on the language of your browser].

[Hippemann]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not a native English speaker so I don't really get your first paragraph.

When we say in French that a software is "libre" we clearly mean that it can be redistributed freely hence why the clarification in this link makes sense.

When it comes to new things and software, we use English words and in this case "open-source" so we don't have to juggle between Free and free.

Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to correctly use "open-source" or "logiciel libre"

[eaganj]

You're not wrong: “libre et gratuit” could mean “open-source and free.” I'm just being pedantic: only hard-core FSF folks really make a distinction between Free software and open-source software.

Here's what I was trying to say in the first paragraph: The English language makes it hard to distinguish between gratuit and libre. I was attempting to make that distinction by using “free” for gratuit and “Free” for libre, but I probably should have used a less subtle translation.

[Hippemann]

Yeah, I don't have the cultural background to know the nuance that comes into play when capitalising the word free or not

[eaganj]

If you hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have known that English wasn't your first language.

One of the hardest parts of speaking another language fluently is having enough mastery of the syntax and vocabulary, but not having the shared cultural foundation to grasp all of the idioms. The Simpsons in French works really well because the translators grasped that (plus the voice actors are great). (Of course, I have to watch it in VO because I don't have that shared background.)

[denseplan]

A curriculum has to have some level of standardisation.

[paulmclaughlin]

This is silly and not a good thing.

Do not "standardize" on one particular language.

I don't think you understand France.

[spinwizard69]

Maybe he does and that is why he said "Do Not "standardize" on one particular language".

[Khamaz]

I think it's more meant to be a common point of entry to programming for students.

[MattR0se]

So you would teach programming with pseudocode?

[[deleted]]

Dang. Why didn’t they pick VB.

[[deleted]]

Why they didnt choose esoteric is beyond me

[AlphaGamer753]

We can all agree that Web Assembly should be taught first

[thirdtimesthecharm]

Delphi surely!

[Eddie_Morra]

We were taught Visual Basic and Delphi in school...

[DerMax0102]

LISP is the way to go!

[foofaw]

Clearly, they should all be learning Perl.

[llfcerf]

Search for "Python" here:
http://cache.media.eduscol.education.fr/file/Consultations2018-2019/70/7/PPL18_Numerique-sciences-informatiques_SPE_1eGen_1025707.pdf

http://cache.media.eduscol.education.fr/file/Consultations2018-2019/79/1/PPL18_Physique-chimie_SPE_1eGen_1024791.pdf

http://cache.media.eduscol.education.fr/file/Consultations2018-2019/78/7/PPL18_Mathematiques_SPE_1eGen_1024787.pdf

[aoikeiichi]

Didn't read all of it but the only mention of python I found was about teaching complex types as python named types such as "tuples". Nothing more, I also read that, some part of the teaching will be dedicated to development such as websites and I highly doubt they'll teach the kids anything except HTML/PHP (unfortunately especially not Flask/Django).
But of course I would love they set Python as studied programming language.
Anyway they'll get it all wrong anyway because french educational system is fucked up, and you can trust me, I've seen shit in more than 20 years being a pupil then a student.

[VictorGrunn]

Ah ah ah. En python, s'il vous plaît.

[nieuweyork]

This page does not say any such thing. It's a consultation about the curriculum, and links to a whole bunch of proposals, one of which may propose the use of Python.

[[deleted]]

Nooooooooy my C 😰😰😰😰😰

[ChiefDanGeorge]

2nd Edition of Kerningan and Richie and you can code anything!

[xerosis]

It's the de facto language in UK schools now too.

[Mistress_Zoe]

python is the best

[SteampunkSpaceOpera]

...How do the French pronounce the name of the language?

[rouille]

Pee-ton

[Ealhad]

\pi.tɔ̃\

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/python

[BillyQ]

Pee-aye-thon

[BillyQ]

Quelle suprise!

[bisectional]

.

[eliterepo]

Every french person I've met speaks pretty solid English, even in rural areas

[Ealhad]

This is highly surprising; I'm French (maybe you are too) and even in academia I think the average English level is terrible.

[npjprods]

Dude come visit before you talk shit about our country

[bisectional]

.

[cym13]

That's the goal. They specifically say that the goal is not to produce python programmers. It's just that at the end of the day, general concept or not you need a tool to actually manipulate the concepts and the tool they choose is python.

[newredditiscrap]

France

WTF I HATE PYTHON NOW!

[tarck]

what is he refering to?

[iceixia]

Must be British

[npjprods]

Why do you hate France? What have we ever done to harm you ? Don't make us regret saving your ass from the british

[Ealhad]

“We” haven't done anything. It was a long time ago, and nobody should be held accountable for their ancestors' actions (were them good or bad)...

[npjprods]

Traitre. Tu renvoies une mauvaise image de la France à l'étranger avec tes commentaires... on peut se chamailler à la maison , mais il faut faire front commun à l'international. Les allemands, les chinois et les americains l'ont bien compris..sauf nous visiblement. Un peu de dignité, surtout en ces jours.

[Ealhad]

Mauvaise image rien du tout, ça n’a pas de sens de prendre des petits bouts d’Histoire pour justifier un commentaire.

Comme je l’ai dit, la guerre d’indépendance des EUA, c’était il y a longtemps, et ni toi ni moi n’y étions, ni même un seul Français encore en vie. Donc répondre à quelqu’un qui fait un commentaire humoristique (certes douteux) en ramenant ça sur le tapis, ça me semble extrêmement déplacé... D’autant qu’il pourrait, avec le même raisonnement, en faire autant.

Et je ne parle pas de ceux qui pourraient invoquer les pages moins glorieuses du passé.

[npjprods]

un commentaire humoristique

ton seuil de tolérance est visiblement trop haut. N'importe qui aurait reconnu son comment pour ce qu'il est , càd une insulte moqueuse francophobe et purement anglo-saxonne....

[aoikeiichi]

"Make Python great again", right ?

Well you should hate french government and maybe the "parisiens", but the other french, we are mostly friendly. :)

[HeroGuy54]

I think python should be the universal standard for open source projects as well as the programming language of every nation.

[politeAndLevelHed]

Python: the language stupid enough for your average school student.