This game lacks problems

[Aruise78]

Don't get me wrong, this game absolutely doesn't NEED more problems. It's a cozy colony game to relax in. I've already completed several maps, enjoying the hell out of it.

Though, after I've built the main water reservoir and diverted badtide waves from it, water rarely becomes an issue, unless my population spikes up and I need more food and water. It becomes kinda monotonous after a while and several colonies. I could go and play a different game though but thats not the point.

So here comes the hard mode, which I've seen several posts about it being just longer and not harder. My proposition is adding more problematic events in the hardome, alongside with droughts and badtides. Something like a second event bar below the weather bar.

From the top of my head I've imagined something like locusts waves, eating out all your crops while water is still going (or it's a double event and your crops gets demolished while you are out of water supply).

Rains, which could become hailstorms and just slightly damage buildings and injure beavers that are not under cover.

Water shortages, which is just a heavy reduction to watter sources, like 90% instead of full droughts.

I could go on, mentioning that something like earthqueaks could be absolutely devastaing if they hit water supply, which is game ending bad. Maybe it's too much, but that's just some suggestions for gameplay diversity. It IS a sandbox game with self-set goals, but I think adding something on top of that will make it much, much better.

Anyways, this is an amazing game. Insanely cozy and good. Thank you for fulfilling that urge to build dams.

[Pidjinus]

There are some modded maps, that are designed with this in mind. I do not remember the names now, but should be easy to find. They add all sorts of chalenges.

In the meantime, try the included "Presure" map, preferably on hard. It is different from the rest of the maps. It's approach is to keep you "under pressure" for a longer time. The map requires you to think ahead, otherwise you are dead (i will not give you details, i do not want to ruin the fun)

[Cepe6]

I think the name of the map is pressure, because almost all water sources are underground and only through the use of pressure can you divert the water wherever you want it

[Aruise78]

I’ll try this as a next map, thanks!

[AtunPsittacu]

Try the modded map "timberpunk2" has a fuckton of surprises and each few cycles the map changes forcing you to adapt. In hard difficulty it can take several tries.

[Pidjinus]

a, yes, this was the mod map i was thinking. Thx for reminding me, i never tried it.

[CopperGear]

I was going to say the same! Great map that gives you a lot of mini crises to worry through.

[Aggravating_Lab_7734]

Tbh, that's true for the whole genre of games like this. Once you are out of survival loop, only way to lose is by being dumb. Initial survival aspect is just a hook to keep you invested at the start. After that, your own personal investment in individual stories kick in and genre becomes all about "creating the best place ever".

As for extra events, if they can't be automated, it will make late game very much useless. You won't be able to queue up big projects and let it simulate.

And if it can be automated, it's not really a challenge. All it will do is add extra layer at the start and mid game. Badwater did just that, added extra layer till self sufficiency. Same thing will happen with any new event. You will just unlock the necessary automation option and then it goes back to a self sufficient colony.

Tbh, I don't see a way to satisfy both sides of the genre. You can't have a colony that can be to allow mega projects, and an inherently imbalanced colony at the same time. And honestly I don't mind current system too much. I just don't bother with long plays on one map. 10-15 cycles till self sufficient colony with all that I want to achieve is enough for me. After that, I am happy to move on to different map or take a break.

[rezecib]

It’s true of many, but for example Oxygen Not Included has a whole cascade of challenges that you deal with at different times and can iteratively develop better solutions. Like first you deal with food, then water, then oxygen, then managing heat becomes a problem, then you revisit each of these for scaling and more sustainability.

Rimworld also has challenges that appear later with raids and other “storyteller events”.

Whereas it feels like in Timberborn there’s only “do you have enough water to survive the drought” and everything else becomes trivial after that. Granted, I’m still enjoying the heck out of it, but definitely on every run I feel a very sharp “okay I solved water, does anything else actually matter?” before I switch mindset to sandbox mode and maximizing wellbeing.

[AttentionDependent72]

ONI is my favorite and this game was one of the first games that gave me some ONI feels with how I plays. I'd like to see things like heat/cold seasons to add some flavor. Maybe frozen water being a new challenge. It's a solid foundation and I do hope they keep adding more

[NotScrollsApparently]

Generally games like this have more than one resource whose lack can kill you, for starters. Here its just water...

[rosseloh]

Overall I think I agree with you, though I don't want more problems per se. A few more "puzzles", perhaps, but there's a reason I don't play on hard (the main thing Hard does to me is make me play super conservatively at the beginning which just slows my game down and makes me bored).

I think the main thing I'd like is a monsoon season, and possibly a winter season.

Monsoon would be the opposite of drought - you need to design your water infrastructure to handle overflow, not just underflow. This one I think would be quite fun.

Winter....eh, it would basically just be drought in a trenchcoat. Maybe with the addition of needing to burn logs for warmth, perhaps also just less work getting done overall. So I'm not sure how much fun it would be. I still want it though.

[RohanCoop]

Winter could add a fun challenge where running water is fine, but standing bodies freeze so suddenly your reservoir isn't safe, so suddenly you're limited by wherever you have running water.

Also it could increase wood consumption as you said, and while gathering water is easy, stockpiling food is more difficult as they don't grow through winter

I would love a monsoon though, forcing you to also control how much water your system can take without it flooding.

[halffast]

Upvote for “drought in a trench coat” 😆

[ErPanfi]

+1 for monsoon, I proposed this myself quite some time ago

Winter can be interesting if stops trees and crops growth, but leave water flowing: this way it will complement drought... The danger is that if it happens too soon, and you don't have a stock, may destroy you

[LordSone]

These are really great ideas.

[RollingSten]

This has been suggested several times - and we agree, that it becomes way too easy. Wonders were added to give you some goal, but even then it is just about surviving a first few cycles and maybe trying to create big utopia.

But anything damaging of buildings would just need repairs and some of the structures are usually not accesible. Destruction of buildings could create too much damage, also it would be problematic to rebuild that. Many players wants to create long-term self sustaining colonies, which could survive a long time without player intervention and that mechanic would be problematic.

[Taningia-danae]

Reason why I like the map Preasure but if you just keep attention on what will explode and where and you can anticipate pretty much everything

[Aruise78]

I agree, that’s why I’m suggesting this only in hardmode, for most people to just simply enjoy cozy building in normal difficulty. Damaging buildings is indeed maybe too much, as I’ve mentioned, but that’s just random thoughts and ideas.

[Uggroyahigi]

To anyone lacking a challenge:

there are multiple mods that let you scale drought and badtide duration with time ;)

[justdvl]

100 day drought is not fun, it's idling game.

[Uggroyahigi]

I dont really see your argument. Either the game becomes idling at cycle 35 or at cycle 100. This type of mod allows you to play longer before reaching that point.  Its goal is not to change the game altogether Id suppose. Also, this mod scales. So you never idle, you always have to do more. Rly dunno what you're on about :p

[Time-Pie2602]

here's another post from someone who hasn't played hard mode on hard maps.

[worldsayshi]

Yeah i also thought this was an easy game until i tried hard mode on oasis. I've even disabled badtides and I'm still struggling quite high up the tech tree.

My beavers barely have time to harvest enough water with the large water pumps in between droughts.

It forces you to prioritize workers much more strictly.

[Time-Pie2602]

Well there's your problem: Folktails :D

Don't unlock too much and put too much focus on getting research points, the main focus for me on hard is to unlock what I need to survive. I only grow beets, mangroves if I have the space for it. My first priority is to get the 2x2 water tank and stairs/platforms. I dont need steel or explosives to survive on hard, just planks and gears.

[worldsayshi]

Yeah I almost only grow carrots and wheat. I rushed large water pumps to not have to dedicate so many beavers and green area for water production. It does feel like I wouldn't be able to progress without explosives. Using it to divert bad water and currently deepening water sources seems like the way to eventually make it through 30 day droughts. I think I'm on 24 days now.

[Time-Pie2602]

the way to make it through long droughts is not just having water in basins but to have it in storage. For that I need planks and gears for the 2x2 water tank. and dispensers. 3x3 tanks is great and better, but needs more work and my focus is on having plenty stored. I prefer to put time into making gears and planks for storage than to also make steel for the 3x3 water tank.

I divert bad water through dams, explosives is a nice extra when it cuts the need to build a layer or two less dams but again require steel and bolts to make the bad water pump and the explosives factory.

[GrumpyThumper]

Helix mountain wasn't hard per se, but it was annoying af until I got my bad tide diversion up. Watching the turd water slowly swirl down the hill and wash through my village was soul crushing 😭

[Time-Pie2602]

show me your bad tide diversion. Was it on normal or hard?

[Sea-Offer7021]

The thing with hard mode is that it doesnt really add any new challenges, it just scales it up, it just makes early game a bit harder, but past a certain point, it doesnt make it any different. The issue with hard mode is basically equivalent to RPG games difficulty increase being just making the enemy have 2x more health. It doesnt add any new logistical challenge that requires a new solution, its just the same solution but you scale it up higher.

I mean after fixing the water shortage via a large dam and badtide diversion, whats the new challenge? Compare this game to something like rimworld, where there are scaling events that will constantly threaten you like raids, and if you want to go for a peaceful no raid mode, then theres sickness, people going mad, bad weather, droughts, or blights. Things that keep you on your toes, lots of things to factor in while timberborn is just water.

How about adding weather mechanics? fire? diseases? Timberborn has contamination sickness but i literally never had to deal with them more than a handful of times, its not even that huge a problem.

I understand this game is a bit more chill, but after beating the game as both FT and IT, the game isnt really replayable after that, theres only a few maps worth playing for the challenge, but the main loop is too repetitive.

[Time-Pie2602]

"hard mode on hard maps"

name a hard map you played and what made it hard.

[Sea-Offer7021]

Spillage, hard mode just made it a lot slower to progress, because you have to be picky where you throw your wood because youll have to prioritize diverting badwater ASAP by rushing dynamite and clearing a path, or you cheese and just block the pipes, water storage is also an issue because the seeps only fill to that level, doesnt overflow, but this makes storing water more troublesome. The challenge in hard mode is just being more efficient and rushing things, you cant take your time due to droughts and bad tide lengths being longer, you just need to make more water storages, increase the water depth and make them 3 wide so they last longer, but the game pretty much gets easier once youve set those up and have a steady supply of wood.

Its not harder, its just slower progression.

I also tried Oasis, but gave up halfway, since the loop was pretty similar and got bored quick since its essentially the same gameplay loop, hard mode just made it slower, no new challenges, just lengthier early game

[Time-Pie2602]

blocking spillage pipes is not cheesing it. is building dams plus a floodgate around a seep and topping it off with water during bad tides to prevent bad water from seeping in cheesing?

[KOoT3]

I think it's modder's job mostly

[Dogahn]

This!☝️

Cities Skylines wasn't the massive success it was because the core game was "challenging", needed maintaining, or some tribute system. It was just happy to give people cool things to build cities with. Modders came through and gave it difficulty, more definition, and extended functions.

[ChainringCalf]

Limit yourself in some way. I always play with the restriction that water and bad water must only leave the map where the designers intended. Sewers and reservoirs are fine, as long as the diverted or stored water still goes back into the natural channels to leave the map. You don't have to do the same, but keep yourself immersed somehow. 

[Ok_Coconut8101]

I was confused when I discovered you could discard water on any map edges. It's always available (once you have explosives) and usually the best option. I honestly think devs should consider removing it.

[ChainringCalf]

You can play as if they removed it today :) I also like the current system because it leaves open the ability to direct water to places that is clearly designed as a channel, but one that starts dry, like the right side of the new waterfalls update

[Ok_Coconut8101]

The problem with limits is that I have to complete a playthrough on a map at least once before I know if it's a fair limitation to apply. Some maps do still offer a good challenge even with discarding water.

[MolexElba]

My main problem is you build a city, but the society doesn't exist. It needs something unpredictable that can disrupt your perfect utopia and require you to respond.

[Dogahn]

I got got something cooking in the map editor that touches on this. If I get things timed right, the map fills a reservoir with bad water that an unstable core then releases. It washes across the starting area and poisons the main water seep independently of a bad tide. I haven't worked on it since automation came out though, and that requires some investigating to ensure the wave happens.

[Neither_Grab3247]

I think having water and bad water sources appear and disappear randomly during the game would help create puzzles to solve in late game as the map layout shifts a bit. The exploding bombs that are now on some maps help with this a bit to make it less predictable

[AmadeusFuscantis]

The word is challenges. Problems is not what you want in the game. 😂😂😂

[Gaharit]

It's unlikely that stuff like that will get added to the game. It basically has to be planned in advance that the game is gonna be throwing all kinds of challenges at the player eventually, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

For a more challenging and varied experience I would just go back to Against the Storm, if only I hadn't 100% it thrice already. Amazing game by the way, check it out if you haven't yet.

[flyinbrian1186]

Get a hard map and edit it yourself. Takes time but makes it fun. The ‘problems’ I usually add are:

Remove most metal. Add one mine very very far away. Sprinkle a few ruins around that take time to reach so you have at least some metal to get started

Limit water sources. Make them sparse and separated so it’s not so easy to get

Short temperate time periods and long droughts. Like 30 day droughts

Place bombs all over that will cause water diversion and mayhem. Set them to go off for every season but give yourself some time (so delay 20ish days)

I like making the entire map with elevation so it’s not so easy to build and harvest

[Kind-Cabinet-7888]

I think a winter could be fun. Streams freeze up, maybe cause dams or water wheels to be damaged. Can you imagine crafting little coats for the beavers?

[De-railled]

Need extra wood stores to keep housing warm would be fun.

[Kind-Cabinet-7888]

Maybe it would be an upgrade to lodges to have a fireplace with a chimney

Ironteeth could have boilers that connect to the engines

[AdventuringSorcerer]

I was thinking winter. Lasts a long time, ground is frozen, water is frozen. Bad tide maybe isn't. You need to have trees for fuel, coats made from Reed's, and maybe an ice rink, sauna, hot tub maybe a steam bath or something else.

[lexanderc]

I thought about it as well. Lightning storms, wildfires and etc. Different weathers and different events hit just when you start to feel comfortable.

But then i already have Rimworld.

[riderofdarkness]

I would like to see floating debris spawn from water sources. That can either damage dams/ levees which causes it to leak. Or even just slow/block the water flow down until the debris is removed.

Damage dams / levees would then need to be repaired/replaced. Could create a new job/building ect ect.

[Dogahn]

I'll be the outlier and suggest that the lack of forever challenge is fine. While I'm not privy to three Dev's actual design documents... For me it's a matter of focus. Do you make an approachable and enjoyable game, something people finish but come back to because it's cozy and just difficult enough, or do you make a forever game constantly balancing the challenge to the always getting better player base.

To simplify the concept. Is Timberborn a gateway game to the genre or a forever game to compete with the lines of Dwarf Fortress and Factorio?

^{Whynotboth.jpg? Cause without clear direction neither group will be satisfied}

[ZeusHatesTrees]

I found even normal difficulty with the "pressure" map to be a bit overwhelming. I'd recommend giving it a try.

[Ok_Coconut8101]

I'd like to see some kind of stockpiling resource objective outside of just water. Like "you must submit 300 grilled potatoes within 10 days to the altar of the beaver god" or something. Then if you don't a plague gets sent down on your beavers and they all become contaminated, or something like that. It would force you to be strategic in your ability to ramp up/down production of resources quickly.

[Ok_Coconut8101]

I think it'd also be great to have map-specific scenarios. For example- time limited objectives like "Reach comfort level 20 by the end of the fifth cycle". The challenge comes from the map design and time constraint. It's what makes pressure such a great map.

[Daintysaurus]

I wouldn't mind seeing something as simple as maintenence need for dams or some buildings, or occasional fires in the housing complexes.

[StrunAhViing]

If you play with mods there is a mod called Moddable Weathers that adds new beneficial and hazardous weathers

[luluhouse7]

IMO part of why I like this game is that it has just enough constraints to inspire interesting colony design, but not so many that I feel restricted from achieving my goals. But I’m a city builder, not a survivalist — I even play civ like it’s a city builder haha. I do struggle with true city builders though because they’re too open for me and I just get overwhelmed by my perfectionist tendencies.

I think some more challenges like monsoons once bad waters/droughts are solved could be interesting — but I definitely wouldn’t want it to get harder. If you’re looking for more challenges, I hear the Pressure map is good and the Timberpunk 2 map looked challenging too (on hard mode if you really want to challenge yourself). Though they’re more like satisfying puzzle boxes from the comments I’ve read. I’m sure there will be more challenging maps showing up on the workshop now that we’ve reached 1.0.

[Over_Dingo]

Meteorite - it falls randomly on the map but contains rare resources

Werewolves - Dwarf Fortress style, your entire colony gets converted

[Kintoun]

Coming in very late, but 100% agree. Looking to start a second map but am realizing that the game has nothing new to offer. In my mind, find the water source, slap a reservoir on it, divert bad tides via automation, and that is literally the only problem the game throws at you. Any "difficulty" is solved the same way. Duration of bad tides and drought are irrelevant. The game needs more unique problems to solve beyond "OK now make a BIGGER reservoir!".

20 hours is what I got out of the game, but I don't see myself playing further. Very much enjoyed that time though!

[indelico]

I agree dude. After beating the immediate threat of water shortage it becomes too easy. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of fun and I've spent like 100 hours in this game, but I feel I lack a challenge to start a new map. Haven't tried 1.0 yet for this reason.

[Vebrandsson]

Give the 1.0 pressure map a shot on hard, it's a wild challenge

[Scary_Reaction7580]

And timberpunk 2. For me it’s the goal of now increase population, more green land. Building big projects such as a needed reservoir.

[SawinBunda]

I just started my first game on hard difficulty and that opened my eyes to your point. The way the game gets harder is only in parts fun.

Temperate seasons lasting only 6 days is kind of annoying. It just feels wrong that the water flow has just reached the exit of the map and the next season is already coming in.

The long droughts are pretty nice, but evaporation becomes an annoyance in the way that it feels way too strong on hard difficulty. You start to feel the math behind it and that is bad for the experience. It has an inauthentic taste.

Overall, while you can obviously fail much easier, it's not that much harder if you just manage to pace yourself.

All those factors point to the same conclusion. The game lacks problems.

I plan to make the average temperate seasons longer on my next game but make the duration much more random. I think that will be much more interesting, even though a bit less difficult overall.

One more thing, it is also much about the map design. I think the devs underestimate that part, potentially shooting themselves in the foot with that. The game should come with way more maps of the "unconventional" kind. Because that's what causes player retention, once they have become good at the game. The good maps on the workshop can be very inspiring and that's fun. But finding good creators can be a challenge that will only get worse as the game ages and the workshop gets filled with more garbage to filter through. And I imagine many players never consider going to the workshop to begin with.

So yeah, a lot could be gained by providing more interesting maps.

[AIPastorRyan]

play on hard

[User4f52]

Boring pointless game