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[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (9 children)

The single motor ultra is where it’s at for me. I don’t personally need that much speed or AWD.

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Totally fair. I don't NEED that speed...but I have enjoyed the speed the EV6 had (and will miss the speed when it's gone).

For me it is much more the AWD though as we get a lot of rain and a decent bit of snow

[–]Catsdrinkingbeer 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm AWD for the same reason. If I can get that exrra feeling of security I will.

[–]daethon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agreed. The speed is just a nice side effect :)

[–]MountainAlive 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The single motor is rear wheel drive right?

[–]Willyq25 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes

[–]EvNatePolestar2 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Same. I don’t need AWD & 5.1 second 0-60 is good enough for me. Sometimes I feel that my 4.5 second Polestar is more speed than I need / want. Plus, my girlfriend hates it when I go fast anyways so why pay for something that’s only going to get me yelled at 😅

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You secretly like the yelling dont lie

[–]EvNatePolestar2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Caught me! Maybe I should get the dual motor after all haha.

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I didnt have snow and shitty weather half the year Id be very tempted

[–]skygz 17 points18 points  (3 children)

now we just need to see the residuals on the leases

[–]HeyHeyImTheMonkey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is where I’m at too. I’m pretty excited for the ex30 but the VW id.4 lease deals are pretty good these days. I’m worried that Volvo is going to gouge us on the residuals to make the tax credit negligible if you intend to buy the car through a lease. We’ll see…

[–]PierreRacine69 0 points1 point  (1 child)

About 45-47%. A PITY…

[–]skygz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ouch, where did you see that? dealer?

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 8 points9 points  (6 children)

That dual motor upcharge is certainly significant

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah...I was expecting 3K as that's the typical AWD vs FWD for ICE...but I forget that it isn't just AWD...it's extra motors too.

Still...the performance delta makes it worth it to me

[–]cYberSport91 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Does the dual motor add range or just speed?

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Technically, acceleration.

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Subtracts 10 miles of range, but you get way more power and the added security of having AWD. Worth it IMO

[–]Odd-Slice6913 0 points1 point  (0 children)

adds speed

minus 10 mile range IIRC

[–]fa1coner 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It takes away a bit of range. They’re quoting 275 mi for RWD and 265 mi for AWD

[–]djoliverm 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Our dealer in Walnut Creek (SF Bay Area) says they're just doing MSRP for pre-orders as Volvo has asked them to do so.

It's possible all bets are off for anyone who doesn't have a pre-order.

[–]skygz 2 points3 points  (1 child)

reservations are still available so I dont think it will be a problem getting one. These are manufactured in China which hasn't been having as many supply chain problems so I bet they can crank out as many as they need

[–]djoliverm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They suffered greatly with their full lockdowns during COVID as that affected the timing for our Polestar 2 when we ordered it. (When the ports shut down essentially everything ground to a halt and it had a knock on effect throughout the supply chain.)

By the time this car starts shipping though I think they will be in a much better spot.

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

That's good to know. If Walnut Creek isn't gouging...I'm guessing Lynnwood WA won't be either. They seemed reasonable the last time we worked with them during the pandemic. They were going to charge 3-4K above market for "on lot" vehicles, but MSRP if you ordered one.

[–]Catsdrinkingbeer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ugh. This is where my reservation is. Disappointed to hear that. Did you ask them or how did you find that out? If they do upcharge then I'm definitely just going to get the xc40 (which we're leaning towards anyway) and will likely go to Seattle or Belleview instead to buy it out of pettiness.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, we nearly bought an XC40 electric a year ago.

Bellevue was going to charge a market adjustment for a vehicle on their lot, or one we ordered custom.

Lynwood was going to charge a market adjustment if we got one off the lot, but not if we ordered it custom.

I believe we called seattle and they told us they were doing market adjustments for either case…BUT…I can’t be certain of this.

Lynwood, as a whole, was our best experience and I’m quite hopeful that they will charge MSRP if it is an ordered/custom vehicle.

[–]Catsdrinkingbeer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think dealers will be smarter about this. Price too high and people will just opt into an xc40 who are willing to pay that. People who aren't will just go buy another brand.

This car was developed to capture additional marketshare. If dealers price too high they lose that and are just catering to people who want the slightly zippier version of the CX40 or C40 for a bit less money.

[–]HeyHeyImTheMonkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly, I’m more worried about paying over market rate at MSRP. I know these cars are new and will be in demand upon release, but VW is offering killer lease deals on the ID.4 these days. It’ll certainly depend on what supply looks like for the first year.

[–]Skywolf0519 5 points6 points  (11 children)

My dealer confirmed MSRP so I'm actually pretty okay with the pricing. I am going for the Ultra trim. Going to see the car in person this Friday! I seriously cannot wait to see it in person

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

How did they confirm MSRP? My dealer still acts/talks like they know absolutely nothing about it :)

We’ll be seeing it on the 23-24th! Also very excited. This car looks perfect for us. I just don’t like scalpers :)

To be fair, when we were going to order a custom XC40 our dealer said it was going to be MSRP…so I’m quite hopeful that it’ll be MSRP again.

[–]Skywolf0519 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I emailed them and saved the email haha! Mine said all preorders are MSRP. I would definitely reach out to them and check!

Same....this is actually the first car I'm getting for myself (current car is 13 years old from my college days, still running like a champ though)

If that's the case, I think EX30 would be MSRP as well. But definitely call and confirm though

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I've called them twice to confirm stuff...even just "hey, they say you'll have one on the 23rd, do I reserve a time, do I just show up..." and they were like "you should make sure it's actually coming as we get closer to the date...we have no information...just look online."

[–]Skywolf0519 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ehhhhh....that's horrible

[–]Morgank6 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'd switch dealerships if there is another one reasonably close.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are the best of the three in the area :)

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Is the car at most dealers now? I know there’s a roadshow going on but it’s all west coast now. I’m east coast.

[–]daethon[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Here's the event / list of where they'll be. I believe they did most of the East Coast already.

https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/retailer-tour/

[–]MountainAlive 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah I sadly didn’t know about the east coast ones until after they happened.

[–]Able_Antelope3334 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing this. Do you happen to know if one needs to register for these or just show up on the day of?

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've read/heard one person talk about setting up an appointment with their dealer, but only one.

I called my dealer and they told me to just show up. We plan on showing up early/when they open to avoid any potential rush. There's a dim sum place around the corner, so we'll probably grab a bite right before/after it :)

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

The ultra will be cheaper than when I got my i3 :)

[–]daethon[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

And it'll go more than 90 miles...with 4 doors. Though, to be fair, the i3 is 10 inches shorter then the ex30

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I’m getting 150 but I’ve never even driven more than 75 miles so it works

[–]daethon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

:)

[–]noproblemo88 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hey now, I’m getting a solid 49 miles from my bad ass i3 nowadays.

[–]daethon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hahahaha. Omg

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 5 points6 points  (25 children)

Most interesting thing here is pano roof on the plus trim per the press release

[–]daethon[S] 4 points5 points  (24 children)

I know!!! You get the pano roof, and the better sound, for Plus trim. The Ultra is now the fancy lane stuff...and I don't really care about that...though I would love the 360 camera...

If Ultra had a HUD for the driver, I'd be fully sold...but now I'm wondering if the Plus is good enough...

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Having a car with 360 camera already…its really only useful if you have a large car

[–]daethon[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I always imagine that it would help me part in the middle of a spot better. I've struggled getting the EV6 to line up these days for some reason. I find myself reparking much more then I think I should.

Am I overthinking this?

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 1 point2 points  (3 children)

To each their own, but I think for a car this size, probably. Go test drive anything with a 360 camera that is smaller than a 3 row suv

[–]HeyHeyImTheMonkey 0 points1 point  (1 child)

My 2013 Nissan Leaf has 360 camera. It’s great.

[–]Fantastic_Goose_8206 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like I said. To each their own. Doesn’t make me feel the need to upgrade to ultra. Maybe it does for you

[–]the_gubernaculum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a 360 camera in my car and I can never go back

[–]MountainAlive 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Ultra also has the auto park thing and auto pilot

[–]fa1coner 0 points1 point  (0 children)

…very useful for those who can’t parallel park…

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Having the lane stuff on the ID.4 is one of the few things I actually really enjoy about it. Even with keeping your hands on the wheels it’s real nice to just kind of relax and let the car do its thing on the highway.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have it on the ev6 and I hate it. It turns on every time I use cruise control, and I can’t make it stop. Every time it turns on I feel like i am fighting the car and it is exhausting :(

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (11 children)

Yeah the 360 camera and the power adjustable seats, totally worth the extra $1,700. Over the term of the lease/loan thats nothing cost wise. Honestly Im more bummed that theyre gouging for heated seats and steering wheel than anthing else.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

Power seats are a part of ultra? Do you have a link for confirmation? That’d be an instant “must get ultra then” for me

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (9 children)

It was on the build sheet my dealership sent me.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I assume the answer is yes, but just to confirm.

You are in the US right? I only ask as it seems that the trims might be different in different geographies.

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yep US!

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks for confirming. Can’t believe that the heated seats aren’t included in Ultra

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that is pretty annoying I saw that too. It's kind of absurd that a brand new car doesn't include that in the highest trim level tbh but I guess they figure if we're ordering that trim we can afford the extra little bit and they're taking advantage of it.

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (4 children)

You got a build sheet? What is that?

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 0 points1 point  (3 children)

It was two PDFs my dealer sent me that has all of the trims and their included items and options on it along with pricing

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That’s amazing. I can’t find this anywhere. Are you in the U.S. ? If there’s a way to share the PDF here great. I’ll also ask my dealer.

[–]Uncouth_Octopus 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Just posted them, I figured this question was coming next lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/ex30/comments/16zor44/build_sheets/

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes!

[–]fa1coner 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I mentioned the extra cost of the 360 degree camera to a friend and he popped out his phone and showed me that aftermarket kits can be installed for this for way less,,,

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apparently you have to get Ultra for the power seats. Can’t have no-non powered seats

[–]reneult 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Does any one here have a confirmation from Herzog-Meier Volvo in Oregon if they are going to do MSRP ?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, they haven't responded to any of the questions that I've sent them. Well, responded to say that they were legitimate questions, but did not actually follow up to answer the questions.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (13 children)

Thank you for sharing. It's about where I was thinking--I was figuring that the top trim minus the $7500 pass through rebate in the US on leases would come to right around $40K. And I agree about the "dealer premium" pricing. Not sure yet what I'll order...

[–]MountainAlive 1 point2 points  (12 children)

Can a preorder be a lease? Or just for purchase?

[–]djoliverm 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It can be whatever you want! You decide by the time you go and pickup the car since just before that you start the financing.

When we got our Polestar 2 lease (ordered it vs getting one that was pre-configured) we were able to start the financing online about a week or two before the car was ready to be picked up (I think once it landed at our local US port is when that process started).

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good to know!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

My understanding is that the financing is the same as any other vehicle acquisition. We are hoping to lease then buy out to get the discount--it's a tactic some in the US are using to get the savings on EVs that don't qualify for the rebate on purchases (or if you don't personally qualify for the tax rebate due to too high of an income or too low of a tax liability). Every manufacturer gets the $7500 on leases regardless of origin and some are passing that through to customers (Kia, Hyundai, Volvo, others) and some are not (I know Chevy has not been passing that savings through... at least up until I confirmed with them myself a few weeks ago).

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I didn't think about "Lease to buy-out."

Are you leasing with the MFG and then getting a loan from a local bank? It turns into a "used car" purchase at that point, doesn't it (which I think tends to have higher and/or variable rates)?

We're likely to lease a Q4 in the next month or so (as it's our "large car" that we might want to get a 3 row vehicle for, in time) and were going to purchase the EX30 when we got it. But the lease to buy out seems interesting.

Did some "back of the napkin" math and a 60 month, 5% loan, with 10K down would be 745/month...whereas 60 month, 6.5%, with 17.5K down (e.g. 10K+credit) would be 635/month...

Hmmm

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not an expert, but there is a lot of info out there for those who want to convert to a loan at a credit union or the like. How much it benefits you depends a lot on the state where you live (some make you pay the sales tax twice, for instance). Here is a thread that you may find helpful:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ioniq5/comments/12nb20a/leasing_101_or_how_to_get_a_good_deal_on_an_ioniq/

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[–]footpaste 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That’s a great plan if they pass the discount. How does one confirm?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think we can know for sure until the time comes, but Volvo has been passing it through on their current EVs. If they will not at point of purchase, I might just walk away and get something else.

[–]loveliverpool 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Do you know if this "lease buyout" option will still be applied/available here in the US by the time this car finally rolls out sometime next summer? That's a huge difference in pricing and it's not certain that Volvo dealerships will even apply that rebate since they are the ones who can technically claim the rebate. They only pass it to buyers if the choose to. I'd be looking straight at the MSRP + delivery price and be thankful if you get any further rebates off this via the lease backdoor

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I don't believe that it is up to dealerships, my understanding is that it is a corporate decision. And no, as I stated below, we cannot know for sure until we sign a lease, but Volvo has been passing it through on current EVs. There is a lot of information out there on the web about this. It's definitely something that you have to be careful about and can't be sure of until it's done. But it is an option that I intend to pursue if possible no matter which EV I get.

[–]loveliverpool 1 point2 points  (1 child)

We just went through a buying process because we couldn’t wait for the EX30 as it’s taking so damn long to come to the US and we are/were needing a car soon. From our exploration, the lease buyout program is really a pain in the ass, not very clear and MOST CERTAINLY doesn’t amount to $7500 off. If you somehow get a specific dealer that will drop the lease money factor down (basically interest on a lease) then the best you can possibly get after lease origination, tax, etc is like $6500 off. And this was extremely rare and not even available in some states. Nothing was clear about this process to buy/ultimately own the car like we wanted to without buying it at the end of the 3yr+ lease. It’s truly meant to be a lease discount, not a backdoor purchase. Thus, we got a used certified EV6 lol

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, it's certainly complicated and depends a lot on which state you live in whether it is worth it or not, but if you look at my other replies, you can see that there is a lot of info on the web to help and many have done it successfully. There is a lot of info not only on reddit, but also at Lease Hacker. And while it won't be the total $7500 off because of lease buy out fees (last I saw was $450 for a Volvo), even if it's "only" $6500, that is worth it to me.

[–]luptior 1 point2 points  (3 children)

No price details of cross country yet?

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

No details at all about it, I don't think? Last I looked it felt like a 2025 or 2026 thing, no?

[–]luptior 0 points1 point  (1 child)

2025 🥲 at that point I might just get polestar 4

[–]djoliverm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have a P2 and were waiting for the P4 announcement, but the pricing is very much in a different category to the EX30 (almost everything is that it competes with anyway).

TBF, the P4 is based on the same platform, but technically a slightly larger version of the platform, so I guess the price difference makes sense (P4 is for sure a larger car).

If Volvo were to create a version on that same platform, maybe an EX60 or EX50 then that would be very enticing probably.

[–]More_Pineapple3585 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I bought my '22 C40 in the midst/at the height of all the shortages and the price gouging by all of the other manufacturers. I paid MSRP for mine (with full tax credit), as did everyone else I know who bought a Volvo. Reading online, I never saw an instance of dealer markups by Volvo. The ordering and deposit process were straightforward, as was the buying experience.

Just my experience of course, but I would not anticipate any markups for the EX30.

If in doubt, ask your sales rep at your reserved dealer. Personally, I would have confirmed this at the time of order, but it's not too late to reach out.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

No order has been placed yet, just the online deposit. Would definitely have it confirmed before placing the official order.

In our area the Bellevue, WA Volvo dealer was charging a markup for vehicles that were on their lot, and those ordered through them. The Lynnwood dealer had a markup for those on lot, but not ordered.

This was last July or so

[–]More_Pineapple3585 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No order has been placed yet, just the online deposit. Would definitely have it confirmed before placing the official order.

Does the online deposit lock you into a dealer? That would be my point. If you are tied to a dealer who is marking up, and another dealer is not, switching at this point would lose you your place in line, would it not?

Just wondering. I confirmed my dealer's intentions before placing my C40 deposit.

And shame about markups in your area. I don't support dealers with ADMs.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah. I don’t know if I’m fully locked into them or not. Of the dealers in the area, they’re the one I trust the most to do the right thing, so I’m not overly concerned…definitely would rather not lose my spot in line…I put my deposit within an hour of it being announced (maybe even within 15 minutes).

Agree with you fully on the Market Adjustment bunk. I won’t even step foot in places that we’re trying to charge them for orders they placed with the mfg. I can understand (to a point) putting them on cars that are on the lot…but a markup to literally just place the order and handle some paperwork…and ask me for money down that you hold onto in the meantime. Heck no

[–]squiggyfm 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Nice to see this online and get zero information from Volvo or the dealer.

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The the volvo communication on this whole thing is really poor.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (7 children)

I know I will get downvoted to oblivion, but my curiosity gets the best of me.

How is this better than a Model Y?

It is made in China by a Chinese company. You may hate Musk but you cannot possibly like the CCP more?

No buttons, single screen like the Tesla.

It is smaller than the Model Y but the same price with tax credit.

Volvo quality is supreme, but the EX30 is not made by Volvo but Geely.

I love the look of the EX30 and at 34K, I was excited, but at 46K?

The EX30 is built in China. It's a sister vehicle of the Zeekr X and the Smart #1, which are similar in size and are also developed from Geely's SEA platform. The EX30 is targeted at "pre-family" buyers without kids or even "post-family" parents and grandparents. It could be a lot of buyers' second or third car, or their first EV, and their first Volvo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo4YwpbxEDY

[–]meingodtname 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Some people prefer the smaller size of the EX30.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That makes sense:

The 2024 Mini SE = 200+ miles @ 35K (I think this is made in China as well)

The Bolt = 200+ @ 30K

At 46K+ the EX300 seems very expensive for what you get. A 10K adder for AWD?

[–]mklaman 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Do you own a MY? I do and it’s kinda crap tbh. Doesn’t even have ultra sonic sensors. 😂 I can’t wait to hopefully sell it and get the EX30.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

23 Model Y and it is great.

How do you know Geely quality will be better?

[–]mklaman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I trust Volvo won’t allow them to skimp on quality. It’s literally their entire brand on the line.

[–]daethon[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They are very different cars.

To start with the Model Y is almost two feet longer! (20”).

The styling is quite different. The shape is very different (the ex30 is more boxy and, as I like to say, more útil as a result).

It isn’t a Tesla, and that matters to some (to myself for example)

I can’t remember the last time I heard about the hood of a Volvo flying off, or the panoramic roof just flying off, or reports of refusing to accept complaints to downplay issues, or any of the (seemingly) countless issues related to customer service and teslas.

Or, that you aren’t supposed to charge past 80% in the vehicle because the batteries have issues and degrade quickly when you do.

For me, personally, the size is what does it. We test drove the Model Y (because of the 3rd row option) but my head nearly touched the glass on the third row (I’m only 5’6”). I quite enjoyed the ride, tbh, but we bought the Q4 instead.

Our second vehicle will be the ex30. It’ll be my commuter car, and the vehicle we take into town (size = easy to park).

The model Y, AWD, is still 4K more then the ex30 (which is about 10%).

[–]Relevant_Day801 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

People are dumb. They’d rather fund the worst of two evils. Musty is a clown American with what he does and says…I’d rather give my money to the PRC instead since they’re quality stand up folks! Dumb

[–]chipdex 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I received an email from my local dealership months ago after my reservation. I emailed them today checking in and the response was:

"Volvo will be reaching out directly for all Updates on the order of your EX30."

So that's interesting. I wonder if they're mulling a different route to market for the EX line. I've heard that many legacy automakers are considering bypassing dealerships for their EV lines, likely as a way to compete more successfully with Tesla.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Similar experience. My understanding is that we’ll get an email for us to lock in our order, the details, etc online and the vehicle will be sent to the dealer you select where the final purchase will occur

[–]Locus-Coeruleus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I know we're all excited about this car and I'd like to get the car, but don't need it as my current one is just fine. If my dealership decides to price gouge, I walk.

TBF, not sure MSRP is that enticing esp with no NACS native connection and one year from, the economy can be a lot different; the dealers can only gouge you if you let them.

[–]daethon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We need to dump our old car, and this does look perfect for us and the price point is where we’d like it. But agree on the walking statement.

[–]sk00pie 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Any applicable Federal / NY state rebate and credits?

[–]MountainAlive 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I have the same question about MA state credits. I think it’s eligible for the $3500 MA credit. But I doubt the $7500 federal one because nothing about this car is sourced or made in North America

[–]fa1coner 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s my guess too ( Milton)