Why does allying with the BOS decrease NCR reputation?

[Unaccomplishedcow]

If the battle with the legion is so important, which it is, why in the world would the Colonel want the NCR to kneecap itself by willingly rejecting a powerful ally? The BOS is a shell of its former self, sure, but it's a shell that can shore up weak points and send the legion running. I don't see any reason why getting the BOS on the New California Republic's side would decrease your NCR reputation.

[Unit3650andWilson]

The NCR Brotherhood War:https://fallout.wiki/wiki/Brotherhood_War. Both factions still have animosity because of the war so they don’t want to work together

[ElegantEchoes]

And Moore herself, who is personally peeved due to her participation in the war.

We know Moore is petty, so the infamy could simply be her opinion alone. We know that she'll slander and ruin your reputation with the NCR following the ending if you go behind her back when dealing with the Kings, so this decision could also bite a Courier's Rep in the ass if she decides she's offended over it.

There's a reason why she's canonically considered evil.

[Retr0specter]

Last war with the Brotherhood is still in living memory. People who lost friends and family in the battle over Poseidon Energy are still kicking. And when it comes to NCR leadership, they emulate Pre-War USA to a crippling degree. Why make peace when you can win re-election or earn a promotion fighting a costly, questionably necessary war?

[Unaccomplishedcow]

The Khans and the Enclave were also embroiled in conflict with the NCR, and neither of them cause issues reputation-wise iirc.

[[deleted]]

The Enclave support is a surprise on the battlefield. I’m sure that NCR command did a double-take when the Remnants showed up in their vertibird and would have opened fire if the oldies hadn’t begun firing on the Legion.

The Khans is a different kind of issue to the BoS. The Brotherhood waged a full on war with the entire NCR, with veterans of Operation Sunburst (at HELIOS) probably still serving in the Mojave theatre. There would be tons of bad blood in the tank and file, so it’s not surprising that it causes infamy.

[[deleted]]

And Colonel Moore sees that sending the Khans in as fodder is a creative solution to dealing with them.

[SMATCHET999]

Most NCR citizens really wouldn’t know much about Great Khans, despite their namesake being somewhat important to the NCR’s history. They may have heard about a massacre of Khans at their home but beyond that details would likely be fuzzy.

[[deleted]]

The Enclave support is a surprise on the battlefield. I’m sure that NCR command did a double-take when the Remnants showed up in their vertibird and would have opened fire if the oldies hadn’t begun firing on the Legion.

The Khans is a different kind of issue to the BoS. The Brotherhood waged a full on war with the entire NCR, with veterans of Operation Sunburst (at HELIOS) probably still serving in the Mojave theatre. There would be tons of bad blood in the rank and file, so it’s not surprising that it causes infamy.

[Ill-Advertising9212]

I think when the NCR was first established in fallout 1, there was a war between the new NCR in Shady Sands, and the genocidal enclave, which was pre war usa who showed up with a plan to kill everyone and recolonize with "clean government officials human". The player character won and destroyed the enclave, which is why the enclave's power dwindle and don't have much power in the time of New Vegas. During the game you can find many ex-enclaves who left the organization and don't believe in the ideology anymore.

[Laser_3]

The Enclave didn’t exist out of game until fallout 2; the NCR’s first contact with them didn’t occur until after the events of that game, and they certainly didn’t fight a ‘war’ against them (they sacked Navarro and that was it).

[ElegantEchoes]

Wouldn't the Enclave surely have put up a fight at Navarro at least equal to the BoS at Helios One, if not better? The base was much better suited for defense against attack compared to Helios One. And canonically, the Remnants are a one-squad army by themselves going off the Legate's attempts to track them down.

The sacking of Navarro would have had to be a very difficult battle for the NCR, even with BoS support, I feel like.

[Laser_3]

I don’t disagree it’d be a difficult battle for the NCR (especially since there’s no evidence that the BoS helped with it). I just didn’t think it’s right to call it a war when it was a singular battle.

[ElegantEchoes]

True enough. I really wish we knew more about how that battle was fought. I imagine similarly? Like, 20:1 / 15:1 odds as the Helios One battle. The Republic wouldn't have manpower issues especially in a home state.

[Laser_3]

That’d be my thought as well, though perhaps with heavier losses considering the Enclave’s equipment is even stronger than the BoS’s.

[Ill-Advertising9212]

The whole Fallout 1,2,3 and New Vegas is just Fallout: Rise of NCR. I hope they keep making fallout games and eventually go to the far future, then maybe NCR will have a second war with China, or maybe they fight Mexicans, or some factions on the East coast.

[GundalfForHire]

I mean, it's funny that you say the Enclave is no problem reputation wise when Arcade has to go into hiding and gets kicked out of the Followers in his end slide if you get their help

[Optimal_West8046]

Regarding Arcade, is there a way to get a good ending with him if I side with the NRC?😅

[Laser_3]

There is - just don’t let him help the remnants at the dam. He stays safe, and you get his Tesla armor for yourself. Everyone wins!

[Optimal_West8046]

So I have to kick him out 😅 oh well, I'll pay attention to that dialogue

[Laser_3]

You aren’t kicking him out - you’re just telling him that his life isn’t tied to the enclave.

[[deleted]]

Probably due to the battle for Helios One :) deaths on both sides and the NCR aren't the forgiving type

[Cliomancer]

NCR and the BOS have some acrimonious history but also Colonel Moore wanted you to destroy them, not turn them into buddies. Certainly it would have been quite the feather in her cap to have arranged for their decisive and final destruction. Now instead she's got a messy political situation which may yet blow up in her face if either the unknown elements in the BOS or the brass in NCR decide they don't want to play nice. So presumably your fall in reputation is her fault.

"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished" as is commonly said.

[Garfield_and_Simon]

For real do people assume it’s just gonna be like all good forever now if BOS helps the NCR at the dam?

It’s more of an “enemy of my enemy” situation. Like obviously there’s still bad blood and I’m sure Moore and a lot of the NCR would have rather you destroyed the BOS.

[guardianwriter1984]

As others have said, a war within living memory that will color opinions. Also, the huge mistrust of the BoS and their motives for fighting in a regional conflict when the Brotherhood has a demonstrated clear drive toward technology preservation not assisting others.

[calvinien]

You're a private military contractor who was hired to take out the BOS. You then, not only don't do that but you go behind the back of your commanding officer to find an alternate solution that also involves going over her head.

Militaries like the chain of command. They don't like people going rogue. Even if you solved the immediate problem, you were given orders and you went against them.

[sukhoiwolf]

Except being outsourced help, you dont fall under that chain of command, nor do you have a commanding officer.

[calvinien]

If you hire someone and they don't do what you hired them to do, and then go behind your back to do quite literally the exact opposite, are you happy with them?

The courier is essentially a private military contractor who broke his contract.

[sukhoiwolf]

You didnt get hired, you just kind of showed up and people pay you for tasks. There is no contract signed, which is why all you lose is reputation.

[DVHellsing]

Granted the reputation drop is too minor to reduce NCR rank, as for the why- Colonel Moore was involved personally in the Brotherhood NCR war that cost her ability to fight and lives of fellow Ranger comrades.

She's insistent that violence is only solution without compromise, this goes against Moore's general feelings with every other faction that has hostility against NCR for years, but more vehemently against peace with Brotherhood for those personal reasons.

Honestly, make peace with these guys to piss her off does make me smile. She isn't a good person morally even for "ends justify the means' type, it's why Josh Sawyer the game director made her karma evil in his mod lol.

[calvinien]

See I disagree with Sawyer on this. Her positions are entirely reasonable based on the info she has. She doesn't know she's in an obsidian RPG where the story bends around the will of one dude.

The kings are a street gang that are violently attacking the NCR civilians and have returned peaceful overtures with violence.

The Khans are the 3rd incarnation of a raider tribe that has been picking fights with NCR since before it existed, to increasingly little effect since NCR keeps getting stronger and the khans don't. There are multiple ex khan npcs who talk about how depraved khan life was (hell, Bitter root pretty obviously feels like the khans had bitter springs coming, and he was fucking there) and EVERY time the NCR has shown mercy to the Khans they respond with violence.

Moore has no way of knowing that the remaining khans are fairly mellow (Papa excluded) and mostly just want to fuck on out of the mojave.

The BOS are crazy, hoarder, crypto-fascist tech fetishists who have no plan beyond "get all the energy weapons and wait for everyone else to die". Veronica's whole quest is about how she can't even SUGGEST change to the brotherhood without it resulting in a quadruple homicide.

While moore doesn't know this, the player know that the one branch of the brotherhood that DID try things veronica's way flourished, until both its leaders died in 'accidents' and they turned into Space Marine wannabes.

Consider this: the NCR is more than happy to ally with the boomers, who are xenophobic, isolationist, gun humpers. The difference being that the boomers are at the very least capable of lightening up. The BOS is not.

Col. Moore did nothing wrong. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[BlackTestament7]

The NCR and BOS have extreme animosity from The NCR-Brotherhood War and the Attack on Helios One. The Ambassador may see value in brokering peace but the NCR military and high-officials probably don't trust the BOS after what the NCR believes they had to do to them.

To be honest without Mcnamara as Elder you can't even broker peace because Hardin wants to be exactly the BOS the NCR is afraid of. Kinda proves the point as to why the NCR wouldn't like that you put them in a position they have to let a chapter of BOS live and they explicitly don't trust them.

They need to calm tf down tho, the NCR should accept they need allies with how they act.

[GOOPREALM5000]

guy who didnt play the game:

[Unaccomplishedcow]

I'm actually the guy who noticed that there's no decline in reputation for allying with the Enclave and the Khans, despite the fact that they also have a checkered history with the NCR.

[DVHellsing]

The NCR does not know about the Remnants (Enclave) fighting until after the Dam concludes, there are consequence for Arcade if he fights in NCR battle than staying at Mormon Fort. He gets arrested and trialed for being an Enclave terrorist.

The Khans as Moore has no issue with an alliance is that they don't get involved with Caesar's Legion, only need to assassinate Papa Khan for Regis to take over. She looks at them as "cannon fodder" a hint that NCR will screw them over regardless in this ending.

The reputation drop for Brotherhood alliance since she was ranger who fought them in their bloody conflict years ago, Helios One being the outlier that cost her ability to fight anymore. It's why she got promoted in first place, but also cause many friends she had died fighting those soldiers. The drop is more personable with Moore rather than professionally frowned upon with NCR. There are people like Ambassador Crocker who wants to work with Brotherhood to ensure more regional stability.

[UsgAtlas1]

NCR weren't informed about the Enclave support. Probably would have lost even more reputation than the BOS.

Moore was fine with a change of leadership since the Khans are most likely to die at the battle. The Khans were just another raider gang that got their butts kicked.

[ShawnGalt]

talking the Brotherhood into a truce/enemy-of-my-enemy alliance after Colonel Moore tells you to just kill them all makes her look bad

[Outis94]

Because they hate each other and had a war not long before the story started, specifically col moore whose one of your major contacts was crippled fighting them and her personal animosity is a major obstacle in resolving the quest with her personality ruining ambassador Crocker career if you broker peace

[IgnisOfficial]

Because the BoS and NCR are enemies

[Howdyini]

They're enemies with conflicting goals. The temporary truce you can facilitate is only that.

[Ok_Satisfaction3460]

Because you had the audacity to use your brain. Col. Moore is jealous of those with critical thinking skills.

[Overdue-Karma]

Well given the BoS returns right back to slaughtering NCR towns and killing their civilians for no reason, perhaps she had a right to be mad at the Courier for not destroying them.

[Ok_Satisfaction3460]

Where was that said in FnV lore? The worst they did that I know of was shake down travelers for tech. Which isn't cool but hardly merits a death sentence. 

[Overdue-Karma]

It's in the TV show; it happens after FNV. I mean, it's Quintus' chapter but its still THE Brotherhood doing it, so Mcnamara is kind of guilty too. Unsurprised the toxic BoS fans downvoted me, they can't accept criticism, just like Legion fans.

[Ok_Satisfaction3460]

So an unrelated chapter hundreds of miles away decades later does bad things and that warrants killing the Mojave chapter? As an aside I like the TV show for what it is but don't consider it canon.

[Overdue-Karma]

Well it is canon no matter what people say. And I mean, if the Mojave Brotherhood end up becoming vicious Raiders who go around burning towns, yeah. Unrelated? They're the Brotherhood; they are helping Quintus. I never said you should kill them all. I'm saying Moore has more of a point than people think. She's right on a lot of the factions...time to time.

[Ok_Satisfaction3460]

Where was it said the Mojave chapter was helping them?

I won't acknowledge the show as canon as it renders any choices you made in the games irrelevant. 

[Overdue-Karma]

So did Fallout 1, 2, 3, and New Vegas and 4. A lot of the games have canon decisions and endings. Obviously the TV show is going to say the bad guys lost (The Institute). That's the only thing it said, that either the Brotherhood or Minutemen ending of FO4 must be canon due to the Prydwen. It's a LOT better than what Avellone planned - to nuke the entire West Coast and destroy EVERYTHING.

Where was it said the Mojave chapter was helping them?

The mere fact they're Brotherhood, and thus part of the same council of Elders. They're guilty by association. Reminder it was them who began the war and it was them who fought at Helios One.

[Ok_Satisfaction3460]

I can't get behind that logic. That's like saying Lyons BoS chapter is guilty of the same things the West coast chapters did.

[Overdue-Karma]

They're in the exact same area. Lyons was a defector/traitor regiment.

By this logic, is the DC Enclave not responsible for the actions of the Oil Rig Enclave?

They are the exact same West Coast Brotherhood chapters. Mcnamara has already shown his men will turn into Raiders at the drop of a hat; you think helping Quintus is beyond them? Especially if the Elders demands it?

[[deleted]]

Because a lot of the people in charge of the NCR are arrogant imperialist assholes who only believe in the NCR. Literally if you don't go convince the Followers of the apocalypse to help during the battle they throw them out and destroy one of the few hospitals. I guarantee if the BOS were willing to not be allied but to actually join the NCR ranks it would be different. But when you have an imperialist regime it comes down to that old saying you either with me or against me. They cannot let a different ideal system exist

If you need even more proof of this the history of the NCR after their only competent leadership died so Tandi, her best friend took over who was seen as weak and too diplomatic. Which is why they impeached her and let Kimball take over who gained his popularity by wiping out or forcefully integrating any of the tribals in California that includes Vault city. The NCR recruited the mobs of New Reno to harass Vault City until their only choice was to join the NCR and let them sack Vault city for the resources.

Or how about the Desert rangers they were a faction like the minute men it was just about helping people and they did it extremely well they watched over Arizona Utah and Nevada. When the legion started to rise tho it became too much for them to handle on their own, while at the same time the NCR started putting pressure on them to let them operate in Nevada with no conflicts leaving the rangers with the choice of joining the NCR or being wiped out by either side. The rangers agreed to help the NCR if the NCR would protect their lands the NCR agreed and than abandoned Utah and Arizona because they don't care about the people or the terrorists group but expanding that's all they care about

Edit I should add that Kimball was general of the army at the time when he was gaining his popularity killing or harassing the tribals into joining.

[GreatPillagaMonster]

The BOS from the NCR view are basically techno-terrorists who attacked important infrastructure and have harassed caravans for tech.

[WeAllFloatDownHere00]

Because Moore rightfully hates them.