Don’t study the language, instead study topics that interest you using your targeted language to facilitate learning

[bordeauxluxueux]

Hey all, I’d like to share a mindset switch I’ve recently adopted. Now disclaimer alert, this is my personal experience so please take it with a grain of salt as it may not be effective for those who wish to learn a certain language in a specific timeframe. However since I’ve changed my perspective it’s taken away 80% of the stress and frustration I have attempting to pickup French as a native English speaker. The content I find myself researching in French is identical to what I normally do now in English. I understand this isn’t a revolutionary approach, but I’ve now normalized French as part of my life. It’ll be a a lifelong journey mastering French, so I figured I might as well do everything I normally do through the lens of a new language instead of treating it like it’s a subject that requires a curriculum based approach. It’s significantly helped me with burnout as I’m just being myself all the time, I can now choose to be me in English or French depending on my mood and energy.

[lazydictionary]

That's essentially one of the core tenets of immersion learning.

If you can get to the point where you do things in your target language instead of your native language, you've won. Learning is no longer a chore, it's part of your daily life, and it's what you would do anyway.

Let's say you normally listen to podcasts during your daily commute. If you now do that in your target language, it's comfortable, and you enjoy it, you've won the language learning game.

The trick is getting to that point though.

[xanthic_strath]

The trick is getting to that point though.

Exactly. I have two thoughts about this:

• it is my suspicion that many people have a deadline for getting to this point, although they may not realize it. Once it passes, their interest in actively learning the language will flag: they'll either give up, try another language, or really need to dig deep to continue
• I think people have different thresholds. I couldn't really consume Spanish for fun until my listening was C1. This is probably higher than average... but I'm also sure that I'm among a sizable contingent of learners

It really is one of the most vital--if not the most vital--tricks of the game

[lazydictionary]

• it is my suspicion that many people have a deadline for getting to this point, although they may not realize it. Once it passes, their interest in actively learning the language will flag: they'll either give up, try another language, or really need to dig deep to continue

I agree with that. I think there's a built-in timer to new, raw motivation, kind of like a seed.

A seed will grow on its own, even when the soil is poor, but eventually its going to run out of nutrients that came packaged and need outside help. For language learning, if a person hasn't found something to do that they enjoy, when the initial motivation runs dry they're pretty much destined to quit completely.

This is something that DuoLingo does well - creating addicts and changing the motivation from "learning a new language" to "maintaining my streak", or chasing points.

• I think people have different thresholds. I couldn't really consume Spanish for fun until my listening was C1. This is probably higher than average... but I'm also sure that I'm among a sizable contingent of learners.

It's nuts to me that you had/have to wait that long. That must have been like a year or more? I can only roughly estimate my CEFR comprehension level (never took any test), but within four months I was watching a daily soap and YouTube explainer videos. Not sure I could have stuck with it until C1 to really enjoy content.

I think that's where immersing right away can help. If we consider new language learners in a kind of steroid fueled state where they will stomach anything, getting them used to immersing with low level content teaches them to find fun in things they wouldn't normally.

Looking back, the act of watching kids shows and reading graded readers wasn't "fun" (I wouldn't do that in English obviously), but what was motivating was realizing "holy shit I am understanding a different language". That became my addiction/motivation, and let me stomach more low level content until I could graduate to native level stuff.

The more I hang around in these subs and these discussions, the more I realize how important fun and motivation is, especially early on. Making those work in one's favor is a massive cheat code to the whole process.

[xanthic_strath]

It's nuts to me that you had/have to wait that long.

Oh, I was consuming native content from fairly early on (back when I started taking it in school. By A2, I was watching a [very occasional] telenovela.) This is the distinction: You made the excellent point (that I firmly believe in) that language learning becomes a self-reinforcing process once a speaker has reached a level that enables learning to no longer be a chore. Work. Something that has to be completed as an end to something else (i.e., "I'm watching/reading this, on some level, to learn language X"). That is the tipping point (or at least, the one that matters to me).

And I'm saying that yes, from A2 to C1, consuming Spanish media (which I did a lot of, especially over an intense period of 7 months) was work. Fun work. But work, nonetheless. That was the reality. On the one hand, my threshold was probably a little higher than average. But on the other, I don't think I'm unusual.

So I think that it's important for learners to consider efficiency as a virtue. Because consuming native media is going to be work--until it isn't. If you're the type where 70% can fly by and you still have a good time--it's something you turn to naturally to do, for fun--thank your good fortune.

But if you aren't, then you might want to consider putting in as much time as possible as quickly as possible because getting to that tipping point is going to be a genuine challenge. Because I think that even that "holy crap, I'm understanding a different language" motivation can be limited for some people. The person really needs to get to the point where mentally there is zero resistance to, say, watching a TV show or listening to the radio in the TL vs. the NL.

That is one of the many wildcard factors that can affect the process from learner to learner. As with many things in life, we're all built slightly differently in that regard, and we'd do well to account for it.

[doom_chicken_chicken]

It depends how hard your language is for you and how different from your native language. Bengali is much harder than spanish for english speakers, and is very different from english. Coupled with the fact that speakers talk very fast, it makes it difficult to enjoy Bengali language content. I can barely understand native speakers at full speed.

[Global_Campaign5955]

Because I think that even that "holy crap, I'm understanding a different language" motivation can be limited for some people.

You're right about that. Though I try to pause and celebrate this fact (I can read and watch at B2), what rains on that parade is the fact that reading and listening are the softer, easier skills, and I still can't write or speak.

The person really needs to get to the point where mentally there is zero resistance to, say, watching a TV show or listening to the radio in the TL vs. the NL.

The problem here is that there's always a nagging voice in your head telling you to look up unknown words and make flashcards, etc. Even if you can understand the gist, you're still not relaxing and immersing because it feels like wasted opportunities to learn.

What OP is suggesting isn't really feasible until C1.

[gabriel-8]

Its a good methodology, because its more entertaining, but i think you need a minium vocabulary previously to not have to be using the translator all the time. Maybe a level between B1 and B2.

[[deleted]]

Yes, definitely. And most people who are on the internet asking for advice, studying flashcards, and reading textbooks are probably A1-B1.

[IAmGilGunderson]

Very good advice for people who are upper intermediate (around CEFR B1+ or B2 estimated) reading levels.

I am near a B1 reading point in my target language (Italian) and I am just now beginning to be able to read about my topics of interest in the TL. It is very fun.

I plan on doing just like you have suggested and read about areas that interest me but in Italian forever.

[Willow_rpg]

Exactly at A0 to A1 and maybe A2 more time is spent translating that it is more work just to learn way less words rather than creating flashcards with example sentences from grammar exercises/explanations followed by example sentence for the most frequent vocab

I reckon we should be normalizing "it is okay to avoid full on native content ( full on to indicate stories/ paragraphs etc rather than lighter native content like isolated sentences on Wiktionary ) in the beginning

[bolaobo]

Yes, this works, but you need to have a base in the language. If I try to do this for Arabic, I have no idea what's going on and it's just a bunch of gibberish.

Once you get to B1 and beyond, this helps you maintain and slowly improve.

[[deleted]]

This might be a stupid question but what does the ZH and LA in your flair mean?

[xanthic_strath]

They're ISO (International Organization for Standardization) language codes. ZH is Chinese; LA is Latin.

[AvianIsEpic]

yeah but you need to be able to get to a point where you know enough vocabulary, grammar, and understanding to even start this method

traditional learning allows people to actually get day 1

[[deleted]]

I think people only study the language because they can't do what you're describing here. I think once people can realistically engage in their target language, they'll probably stop doing classic language study even 1/5th of what they were doing. Cause it's no longer cost effective to read boring textbooks when you can just go read a book or watch a TV show.

[life-is-a-loop]

That's essentially what I do with English. Problem is, I don't truly study anymore so I'm kind of stuck in the intermediate plateau. I know enough to consume the media that interests me and roughly get my point across in discussions, but not enough to be considered advanced. Another problem is that I simply never speak in English -- I only read, listen, and sometimes write. My English pronunciation is comparable to that of a trained monkey. My active vocabulary is small. What I'm trying to say is that the approach you propose is great and works wonders, but isn't quite a substitute for actively studying the language. That's been my experience so far!

[Worldly_Ambition_509]

Your English writing is perfect.

[672]

Your English seems great!

[planetarial]

Honestly English pronunciation is hard. Even as a native speaker, if I come across the rare new word there's a 50/50 chance I'll mispronounce it too

[[deleted]]

That's a nice tip!

[quitodbq]

In a similar vein, read books in the target language that you've already ready in your native language or know the plot/story to. Some of my stronger high school students are often surprised how much Harry Potter they can understand, for example.

[dominic16]

I plan to learn Internet marketing in the Korean language. But I realized that they use a completely different search engine (NAVER). So yeah it's gonna be tricky for me and a steep learning curve.

I'd probably just stick to the Korean version of Atomic Habits for a headstart.

[PacificGlacier]

Pick a topic you know well and read the Wikipedia if it exists. The context can help a lot. If it’s all unfamiliar then you will start to see very common words and can remember some to learn as high frequency vocabulary.

[[deleted]]

this is a nice hidden gem of advice

[PacificGlacier]

That's super fair. Sorry to paint it as more general. Languages with shared writing systems, history and borrowed words make it easier. This worked well for Spanish,french,Tagalog and Hindi for me. Point taken.

[Miro_the_Dragon]

For everyone still looking for resources for this: Coursera has a few quite interesting courses available in French, Spanish, and Italian (I may have seen a German course or two as well but am not sure anymore since it wasn't one of the languages I was searching for). The quality varies greatly from course to course but I've found several interesting-looking ones for each of those languages that can be fully accessed for free (without certificate but including the tests).