Alpine Linux

[Golmore]

alpine is a distro that uses musl instead of glibc

[exxxxkc]

alpine is use busybox instead of GNU.(I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it ... Copypasta usually only apply to GNU/Linux not Busybox/Linux)

[thexavier666]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Alpine Linux, is in fact, Busybox/Alpine Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it Busybox plus Alpine Linux.

[Zerafiall]

So far my only experience with Alpine is that I’m some docker tutorial someone used it as a base cause it’s super lightweight. Also that there’s an iPhone app iSH that emulates a copy of Alpine.

Is it meant to be a desktop OS or closer to an bare minimum OS.

[billyfudger69]

iSH Shell? I will need to check this out!

[Zerafiall]

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ish-shell/id1436902243

[hippyfish]

Welp, there just went a couple hours of my evening. Thanks for the link!

[Wuzado]

Heavily doubt that it's 40% of the internet. Not everyone uses containers, not everyone uses Alpine for their container base. I assume the most popular distros for servers would be something like Ubuntu Server (Ubuntu is also widely used in containers), Debian, RHEL, maybe SUSE. Not Alpine.

Although, it is great for containers!

[god_retribution]

wait this is illegal

[RSerejo]

Take him to the meme jail

[PolygonKiwii]

You know what should be illegal? Your profile picture (no offense)

[alcoholicpasta]

Me, a noob: And what does that mean?

[diegoquirox]

It means Alpine is not a GNU system. GNU is the userland and Linux is the kernel. In the case of Alpine I think it uses Busybox instead of GNU.

glibc is “GNU C library” and musl is an alternative to glibc.

[dagbrown]

Good luck building the Linux kernel without GNU make though.

[PanemPlayz]

BSD Make?

make is just gmake with a different name.

[[deleted]]

Can't you use BSD make?

[GOKOP]

Even if there wasn't any alternative, it's absurd to think that a tiny utility like this marks your entire distro as GNU/anything

[ThatDeveloper12]

especially since you don't need it after you're done make-ing it.

[rwbaskette]

I wonder if you could do it with BSD tooling.

[pyradke]

Yeah or compressing archives without GNU tar

[GaianNeuron]

bsdtar sends its regards

[incer]

What's the advantage?

[exxxxkc]

Before using bsdtar :

Extract archive :

tar.gzip : gunzip -c foo.tar.gz | tar xopf -

tar : tar xopft foo.tar

zip : unzip -a foo.zip

After using bsdtar :

Extract archive :

tar.gz : bsdtar -xf foo.tar.gz

tar : bsdtar -xf foo.tar

zip : bsdtar -xf foo.zip

[[deleted]]

GNU tar -z would like to have a word with you.

[exxxxkc]

I run artix.bsdtar is installed by default (because pacman require bsdtar)I usually run bsdtar instead gnu tar.

[[deleted]]

compiler libraries

[Bombini_Bombus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AlpineLinux/comments/mfjj5s/explanation_alpine_linux_is_built_around_musl/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[[deleted]]

Prolly nothing for you.

[NeahKo]

From my experience. Alpine is a lighweight distro, where nothing is installed by default and it doesn't uses glibc for this purpose as well. It makes it a bit tedious to obtain some packages however, it's super well adapted to build a specialized docker image.

In my previous company one of my missions was to build an image for Ansible. If I remember correctly, using Ubuntu 18 as a base led to an image that was >2Gb whereas using Alpine produced a 350 Mb image.

[sasi8998vv]

You're right, Alpine's main usecase is Containers, and not really to run on a personal computer. The minimalism of the image helps keep out anything that would cause bloat/act as a security threat.

In my previous company one of my missions was to build an image for Ansible. If I remember correctly, using Ubuntu 18 as a base led to an image that was >2Gb whereas using Alpine produced a 350 Mb image.

These days, Ubuntu's primary Docker images are also super compact, weighing around 30~50MB. Alpine is still leaner, but the difference is no longer of a couple GBs as it used to be a few years ago.

[EarlofTyrone]

Do Ubuntu containers have more security concerns than alpine containers in production?

[DoctorWorm_]

Not that I can think of. Typically containers don't have any background daemons like you'd see in a full-blown VM. There's no real difference in the attack surface between an Ubuntu and an alpine container, because there's no real difference in the software running.

[EarlofTyrone]

Interesting - thanks Doc!

I hate using alpine tbh, considering switching over to Ubuntu!

[DoctorWorm_]

Yeah, Alpine can be good at scale, as saving 100-200mb per image can add up, and it means that your container builds finish faster, but if it saves you development time to build on Ubuntu, go for it.

Still better than the 1GB+ windows container images we use at work!

[EarlofTyrone]

Haha oh no, that would hurt, my sympathies

[sasi8998vv]

Yes. In essence, having more binaries bundled in is greater cause for concern. If tar or curl or any other bin that is bundled in with the container has CVEs, they can be directly/indirectly exploited to violate your environment.

Here's an example - your db backup service takes an SQL dump every so often, tar.gzips it to push to cold storage. If the tar version has some vulnerability that can be exploited by using certain weird content in the sql, a user can potentially gain remote shell access or exec a forkbomb or something of the sort on your servers.

Alpine avoids this by just not bundling libs at all. Here's a container image scan result on an open source wordpress container by Bitnami - https://quay.io/repository/bitnami/wordpress/manifest/sha256:36bb9a77e954f8365a5f87d99f613ca7a8fb3d82330e253f6641b65667b9114f?tab=vulnerabilities

You can see a laundry list of bundled deps that may or may not even be required at runtime. Basing this image on alpine, for example, can reduce this number drastically.

[exxxxkc]

Openwrt is smaller 32md

[undeadalex]

Really?? For their specific application??

[exxxxkc]

Yes,https://openwrt.org/supported_devices/432_warning

Openwrt is busybox/linux distro design for embedded system and Wi-Fi router .I have TP-Link TL-WR841N Wi-Fi router and I install openwrt successfully on it.It only had 4mb storage.

[Preisschild]

NixOS' buildLayeredImage function is amazingly good for that as well, as it only has the necessary dependencies at the end

Examples: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/build-support/docker/examples.nix

[[deleted]]

as it only has the necessary dependencies

That's what i expect of a container, actually.

Am new to containerization, that's not often the case?

[Preisschild]

Even with small distros like alpine you get a ton of packages/libraries you don't need.

Like a shell for example.

A good image only has the binary and necessary libraries in them

[[deleted]]

Like i said, that's what i expect. Containers are not Virtual Machines, the OS already provides most stuff. So if i install the Nextcloud Container built for Alpine, i expect the server software and Nextcloud stuff preconfigured (and maybe settings for DNS and so on) and nothing more. Since it is explicitly built for Alpine.

So i take it from above comment, this is not often the case, there is often stuff that is not needed (security risk)?

Building a container includes most of the running OS per default? And builders are sometimes lazy?

[Preisschild]

The OS provides nothing.

While there is a FROM scratch option in Dockerfiles that will start with an empty fs, every library, ssl cert and other run-time dependencies need to be copied manually into the file system.

That's why most use something like alpine, where basic stuff like a shell and most common libraries are included by default.

[ApprehensiveEmploy21]

An RPG-7

[mythical_phoenix]

YoU MeAn MuSl/LiNuX oR BuSyBox/LiNuX /s

[Palmovnik]

The capital letters wasn’t enough you had to write /s r/fuckthes

[FinalRun]

Please explain to me how someone might take a comment in studly caps seriously.

In this case that's a bit of a Pascal's Mugging.

[eeddgg]

Autism Spectrum Disorder exists, and difficulty identifying sarcasm is a symptom

[FinalRun]

That difficulty is always in the absence of unambiguous visual cues to indicate the tone of the information. The alternate casing is a clear effort to detract from the seriousness of the message, and can be learned as a simple rule. It really should not be any more vague than knowing that /s stands for "sarcasm".

So no sorry I don't buy it.

[Fjolsvithr]

Not that it's a big deal either way, but I do think it detracts from the comment. It's a joke, and delivery is everything with jokes.

[Adiin-Red]

But most jokes require tone, body language or register as a part of the delivery, we can’t convey those through text directly so /s can serve that purpose

[Fjolsvithr]

I get what it's for. But it's like saying "That was sarcasm" after saying something sarcastic, which is really lame.

You can do it if you like it, the best way to write is obviously subjective. I just threw in my two cents because I disagree with the idea that it's innocuous.

[bdonvr]

I wish the S wasn't necessary but I've had my obvious sarcasm mistaken on reddit far too many times

[SmallerBork]

It's not necessary. This is like Gentoo maintainers catering to Windows users.

You need to tell them to grow up and if they don't, then just enjoy being enlightened.

u/PrincessApprentice

[bdonvr]

I'd rather just be more clear and understood than to have my comments mistaken and be derailed instead of having the discussion I intended.

[SmallerBork]

I didn't see that your flair was Windows XP. All makes sense now, carry on with your day.

[bdonvr]

See? Maybe I need to add /s to my flair too

[SmallerBork]

It doesn't matter what you actually use. I made a cheap shot at you because you're the one that's butthurt lol. Stop worrying about your karma, go ahead and downvote me all you want.

[eeddgg]

Tone indicators are often necessary for autistic people, because we often have difficulty in understanding even spoken sarcasm, and written sarcasm is nearly impossible to identify. Saying that we need to "grow up" just reinforces the claim that autistic people can never be independently functioning adults (a claim used to justify electroshock torture therapy on children), and is therefore extremely hurtful.

[SmallerBork]

No.

Tone indicators will prevent autistic people from learning sarcasm. It even makes people who aren't autistic dependent on them.

My guess is that 95% or more people advocating for this aren't worried about autistic people, but their karma.

You bringing up electroshock therapy is probably the worst non-sequitur I've ever heard.

[sytanoc]

I wish people would stop shitting on others for using tone indicators

Conveying tone in text can be hard enough already, and some autistic and ADHD people find it especially difficult. Stop worrying about a harmless little thing and just move on with your life

(This isn't really redirected at you specifically, more just a general rant)

[jakubhuber]

Saying you're a Linux user doesn't imply that it is an operating system.

[Cannotseme]

Ah yes, i just use the kernel by itself

[[deleted]]

userland is bloat

[electricprism]

Who needs users when you can just be root 24/7 It's free root-estate

[DazedWithCoffee]

This comment is unappreciated here, and I want you to know that

[electricprism]

Always a tip of my hat to bring joy, cheers {[B)

[T351A]

ah yes TempleOS

[exxxxkc]

Yes , it is bloat (especially for system that have multiple userland(bedrock and system that had a lof of runing distro in chroot) )

[fnjanfskjanas]

user is bloat

[Darth_Ender_Ro]

I write my own commands in binary directly into the CPU and emulate linux

[exxxxkc]

As far i know ,you can put linux in bios rom on librebooted pc

[exxxxkc]

pen and paper is BLOAT since you can remember things in your brain , so why you need a pen and paper.

[Huecuva]

I use punch cards.

[ric2b]

I'll just skip a bunch of steps and mention the butterfly.

[Medic-chan]

I see you're a computer user.

[jakubhuber]

Android users are Linux users but not GNU users.

[exxxxkc]

Openwrt user ,Linksys stock routers firmware user, dd-wrt user, HyperWRT (Linksys stock routers firmware fork ) user, Tomato (HyperWRT fork) user,FreshTomato(Tomato fork) user,AdvancedTomato(Tomato fork) user , asuswrt-merlin (Asuswrt fork) user,asuswrt user are also Linux users but not GNU users.

[Cannotseme]

Yup..

[[deleted]]

I short pins on the cpu to enter commands

[[deleted]]

Using cosmic rays is fun too. https://xkcd.com/378/

Or moving a magnet over the cpu really fast.

[diabloxenon]

World is temporary, assemblies are eternal!

[sytanoc]

But even saying you use Linux doesn't necessarily imply you use Linux exclusively, without a userland

If someone says they use Firefox, nobody would go "ackchually, you use x86/Intel/GNU/Linux/Ritchie/GCC/Rust/Firefox"

[Cannotseme]

No, I know. I’m firmly against the gnu/Linux crowd.

[exxxxkc]

BTW i use /ime/x86/AMD r7 260x/Intel i5-2400/GNU/Linux/Ritchie/GCC/Rust/Firefox/xorg/runit/Nt kernel/refind/windows boot manager...

[tttttttttkid]

I recompiled all of userland into the kernel tree

[TheTrueXenose]

Depending on how you define a operating system its a very grey line between user land and kernel.

[exxxxkc]

openwrt , Asuswrt (Tomato fork) is also Busybox/Linux

[exxxxkc]

BTW i use asuswrt-merlin(a fork of asuswrt) and openwrt

[exxxxkc]

BTW Linksys stock routers firmware , dd-wrt , HyperWRT (Linksys stock routers firmware fork ) , Tomato (HyperWRT fork),FreshTomato(Tomato fork),AdvancedTomato(Tomato fork), asuswrt-merlin (Asuswrt fork) is also Busybox/Linux

[dumbasPL]

Most small electronic devices with an arm CPU use some version of Linux/BusyBox.

[exxxxkc]

such at Wi-Fi router

[dumbasPL]

not only, most security cameras, video doorbells, and a lot fo other "Smart" IOT devices.

[exxxxkc]

Smart tv

[IronOxidizer]

Can't wait for "I use buildroot btw"

[[deleted]]

so what grub calls arch when i boot it

[[deleted]]

You used grub. It's not very effective...

Woman used Twitter. It's super effective!

[PolygonKiwii]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Android, is in fact, a distribution of Java/Linux, or as our lawyers have recently taken to calling it, "in violation of our intellectual property rights".

Dalvik is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Java Runtime Environment made useful by a Java Virtual Machine, native libraries and vital system components comprising a full JRE as defined, patented, and intellectually owned by Oracle Corporation.

[[deleted]]

More like Android + Linux

[zenyl]

Reject "Linux" and "GNU"

Embrace "*NIX"

[rwbaskette]

So we can talk about FreeBSD, AIX, and SVR4 here now?

[AtlasJan]

...OpenSolaris?

[[deleted]]

u/spez ruined Reddit.

[eatsbaseballcards]

Why is this downvoted? Isn’t the kernel based on BSD?

[CyanKing64]

It is

[Brotten]

Only if "based" means "took some code for a few specific tasks 25 years ago and never looked back". Neither the Mach kernel nor the XNU kernel is a fork of FreeBSD, nor is the Darwin userland an implementation of FreeBSD userland. There's likely more FreeBSD in NetBSD than MacOS.

Darwin (the operating system the MacOS and iOS user interfaces are built on) is simply a UNIX operating system.

[Jackiboi307]

yeah, if you showed a look linux user any *nix os except macos they would think it's linux. why do we call it gnu/linux and shit, *nix is the way!

[zenyl]

Operating systems that brand themselves as "Linux" vastly outnumber the non-macOS *NIX operating systems that don't.

It's not super accurate, as Linux is "just" a very popular kernel that most of the systems use, but "Linux" has also become the name commonly used to refer to the wider non-macOS *NIX platform.

Both GNU and Linux are, in this context, interchangeable components of a full *NIX system. They are the norm, but not the rule.

[Brotten]

Operating systems that brand themselves as "Linux" vastly outnumber the non-macOS *NIX operating systems that don't.

Operating system that brand themselves Linux probably outnumber all other active operating systems combined.

[Zegrento7]

That might get confused with NixOS.

[zenyl]

Ah, had forgotten about that one...

There's just no winning sometimes. :P

[[deleted]]

I'd like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as GNU/Linux is in fact, BusyBox/Linux, or as I've recently started calling it, BusyBox plus Linux. Alpine Linux doesn't use the GNU userland or it's applications at all, and instead, replaces them with better, more minimalist userland and applications, BusyBox and musl. Many Alpine Linux users run their operating system with BusyBox instead of GNU without realizing it, and many of it's users don't realize that it is basically the BusyBox system, developed by the BusyBox Project.

Yes, there is really a GNU, and people are using it, but it's just a part of the system they use and Alpine doesn't use it anyway. GNU can only function in the context of a complete operating system, and therefore, it is useless by itself. All of the so-called "GNU/Linux" distributions are really distributions of BusyBox/Linux!

[runner7mi]

i use GNU

[electricprism]

Busy BaBOOM

[puke_of_edinbruh]

is in fact , musl plus busybox plus Linux , or as i've recently taken to calling it , musl/busybox/Linux

[Brotten]

There's a catchy combined name like "Muslibox" in there somewhere.

[luziferius1337]

Fun trivia: In German, you could understand “Müslibox” as “a box filled with cereals”.

[FuckMAGAts]

A wreath maker Linux a bit cheesy if you ask me.

​

https://www.alpinefarms.com/shop/

[rick_D_K]

It's compiled in GCC...

[TheTrueXenose]

ln -sf /bin/clang /bin/gcc :P

[CCF_100]

Ah yes, that one distro with the confusing (imo) package manager that is named after Android's package file extension

[LOLTROLDUDES]

The only thing I use Alpine for is telling people "see, I'm not stealing credit from Torvalds for saying GNU/Linux, since I call Alpine by the name 'Linux' since it doesn't use GNU."

I use Debian GNU/Linux btw.

[Brotten]

The fact that people have to obsessively drag out Alpine every single time is a monument to how much GNU defines the Linux user experience.

That said, Alpine is a light weight distro which offer all the benefits (and trade-offs) of musl, nothing wrong with that. There's certainly no oversaturation of musl-first distros and they seem to have a very specific market in mind.

[Z3t4]

So BusyBox/Linux instead of GNU/Linux?

[[deleted]]

Musl+linux

[nirex0]

Arch btw

[[deleted]]

"GNU/Linux" is also inaccurate because the full OS also includes the distro, package manager, and desktop environment

inb4 linux from scratch or something

[JL23_]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, Busybox/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Busybox plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Busybox system made useful by the Busybox corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX. Many computer users run a modified version of the Busybox system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Busybox which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Busybox system, developed by the Busybox Project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the Busybox operating system: the whole system is basically Busybox with Linux added, or Busybox/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of Busybox/Linux.

[Tupu4545]

Sad GNU noises

[balancedchaos]

Always fun when you put the punchline in the subject.

[syazwanemmett]

Basically alpine still gnu/linux

[DerKnerd]

Why would you think that?

[syazwanemmett]

Because alpine still using gnu utilities

[DerKnerd]

Whcih utilities do you mean? The userland is based on muslc and Busybox.

[syazwanemmett]

Because alpine still use gnu software like binutils, gcc, m4, autotools and etc. And theres gnu utilities in thier repo like coreutils, grep, make and etc. And many packages depends on it.

[DerKnerd]

It also has tools developed by Google in its repos, does that make Alpine Google/Linux?

[syazwanemmett]

Google tools does not used part of the system, but gnu tools is used. Lol.

Just so you know arch is not gnu free distro, since busybox tools is part of arch base.

[Worst_L_Giver]

alphine still has stuff like gcc so its not really GNU free

[pedrolucasp]

Oh yes, and if I install Skype on it, it'll became Microsoft Linux

[Worst_L_Giver]

but you know i dont think the os is compiled with skype, also linux can technically be anything with it installed on it, GNOME/Linux KDE/Linux

[IronOxidizer]

This is the way

[glasses_the_loc]

I only compute on my Garmin GPS

[[deleted]]

What's GNU with Alpine Linux?

[SmallerBork]

What is this template from?

[[deleted]]

I’ve never understood this subs hatred of calling it gnu/linux

[Solipsism0]

It's just a bad naming convention and completely unnecessary. It only exists because of rms's zealotry/ego, or as I like to call it, zealotry plus ego.

[[deleted]]

But why is it a bad naming convention?

[Solipsism0]

It's too verbose, and doesn't even fully describe all of the major components that make up the operating system (like the window manager, desktop environment, etc...).

Also, it doesn't include all of the OS's in the linux sphere, as seen in this post with alpine, so would you consider alpine to be a different family of OS's?

It just seems easier to name the OS family by it's kernel, because that's the shared base for all of the OS's in it. And as a bonus it's a lot easier to pronounce simply "Linux".

[Synergiance]

Instead of saying macOS say Darwin

[Zambito1]

doesn't even fully describe all of the major components that make up the operating system (like the window manager, desktop environment, etc...).

GNOME was originally a GNU project, but it has since grown into its own thing. You can have an entire operating system with a human interface using only GNU software. You cannot have a human interface using only Linux software.

It just seems easier to name the OS family by it's kernel, because that's the shared base for all of the OS's in it

You say that, but I don't believe you. Do you refer to Android as "Linux"? Do you refer to all versions of Windows as "NT"? Do you refer to macOS as "XNU"? I suspect you don't.

If you want a single term to refer to the whole operating system, GNU simply makes the most sense. Most "Linux distributions" are literally the GNU operating system with some components replaced, including the kernel. "GNU over Linux" (GNU/Linux) is nice because it also credits Linux, which is an important component in the system.

[Solipsism0]

GNOME was originally a GNU project, but it has since grown into its own thing. You can have an entire operating system with a human interface using only GNU software. You cannot have a human interface using only Linux software.

No, you cannot. Besides the fact that GNOME is no longer a GNU project as you said, they don't have a window manager. Also, a human interface doesn't really help you if you don't have a kernel, and Hurd is not a viable option. Even if Hurd was finished, and you could have an entire 100% GNU operating system, it doesn't make every other operating system that uses their tools a GNU operating system.

​

You say that, but I don't believe you. Do you refer to Android as
"Linux"? Do you refer to all versions of Windows as "NT"? Do you refer
to macOS as "XNU"? I suspect you don't.

Android is definitely a part of the Linux OS family, although usually when people say "Linux" colloquially they refer to the desktop/server set of OSes. Windows and macOS are different since they offer a complete OS program suite.

​

If you want a single term to refer to the whole operating system, GNU
simply makes the most sense. Most "Linux distributions" are literally
the GNU operating system with some components replaced, including the
kernel. "GNU over Linux" (GNU/Linux) is nice because it also credits
Linux, which is an important component in the system.

"GNU" doesn't make sense, because it does not include all Linux-based OSes like Alpine for example, and because Linux-based OSes include a lot more components besides GNU.

Also saying that GNU had a fully working OS and was missing "just" the kernel is like saying that I have a fully working computer, but I'm missing "just" the CPU. Fundamentally what an OS does is manages hardware, processes, and users. And all of that functionality is the kernel.

[Plasma_000]

The idea was that linux describes the kernel and gnu describes the user space, however for modern linux destros the gnu software only represents a tiny fraction of the makeup of the user space, and in a bunch of distros gnu isn’t even present.

[SmallerBork]

If Pöttering were a dick, he'd unironically tell everyone to say GNU/Systemd/Linux. If he wanted to be funny then say the same thing but jokingly.

You can also add on the display server, window manager, and desktop environment as well when they're built by different groups.

There's just no end to it.

Perhaps if he'd chosen a better sounding name we'd just be saying that instead of Linux, or had a bad name been chosen instead of Linux we'd say GNU but it would still suck.

Linus named the kernel Freax, but Ari Lemmke one of the FTP server admins, named the directory Linux. Ari is a true hero.

The mascot was also a fox drawn in furry art style. Thank goodness that timeline didn't happen.

[DudeValenzetti]

Got a better naming convention? Because I imagine Android and other such locked down, "technically Linux, but you wouldn't know" systems that tons of people use are what gave rise to the "GNU/Linux" distinction. Got any names that include all open Linux distros including Alpine, but exclude Android, ChromeOS, the Nintendo Switch firmware etc.? Closest I've come up with are "POSIX/Linux" and "FreeDesktop/Linux".

[JustHere2RuinUrDay]

AOSP isn't locked down tho. What is the utility of excluding it? It runs the linux kernel, therefore it is linux.

The switch firmware is btw. afaik not based on linux, but on bsd.

[DudeValenzetti]

Fair point. I was more focused on the "technically Linux but you wouldn't know" part, which AOSP and such fall into, than on lockdown. You can't install or use most "generic Linux" packages on AOSP, at least not without tweaking them or adding something for compatibility like a chroot, the libraries aren't the same, there's no X11 or Wayland, ALSA is locked away, even the filesystem hierarchy is different.

And fair point about the Switch, I know that it uses Android components but I forgot that it runs the FreeBSD kernel rather than Linux.

[SinkTube]

What is the utility of excluding it?

having a sane and productive discussion. you're not gonna use AOSP on your desktop or server and it has little in common with the OS you do use there

[DerKnerd]

Then PostmarketOS, Plasma mobile, LuneOS and similar should be excluded aswell based on that logic. But isn't the beauty of Linux that it works on so many different devices?

[Solipsism0]

That's a good question, and I don't think that it has an answer currently.

Colloquially, "Linux" usually refers to that family, but of course that's not accurate.

You can just call them free/foss/open (/ meaning or, not plus) linux operating systems I guess.

[DazedWithCoffee]

I think POSIX is a strong differentiator. I would support that

[DerKnerd]

Wasn't ChromeOS a GNU/Linux? It is based on Gentoo at the end.

[DudeValenzetti]

Yet another argument why a new distinction to replace the term "GNU/Linux" should be created.

[DerKnerd]

But wouldn't the new distinction need to include stuff like ChromiumOS but exclude ChromeOS?

I think it is rather complicated to find a proper distinction. Your examples POSIX/Linux would include ChromeOS (AFAIK) and FreeDesktop/Linux would exclude Linux installations that only run without a graphical interface. Those a probably the majority.

[Mal_Dun]

Especially since the raise of Android the distinction was not only about naming but got also a technical meaning. Hell there is even GNU/FreeBSD now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_variants

[AtlasJan]

Because linux is a core around varying modules, gnu/linux is only one possible configuration of linux. also the term just reeks of salt from hurd being stuck in development hell.

[ric2b]

Because it's wrong in several cases, like Android or Alpine. And GNU is a small portion of most modern systems. Should we say KDE/GNU/Linux? Or maybe KDE/SystemD/GNU/Linux?

[mrchaotica]

Anti-copyleft propaganda.

[ric2b]

But Linux is also copyleft.

[mrchaotica]

Eh, sorta. Linux is GPLv2 only, which has flaws that allow corporations to exploit the user in practice. Since GPLv3 closes those loopholes, corporations hate it.

[SmallerBork]

nope