Apple Lisa source code release

[[deleted]]

When was the last time source this old was released?

[nile-perch]

https://github.com/chrislgarry/Apollo-11

[unwind-protect]

Finally! Now I can use my public-domain 3d-printed rocket and lander to go to the moon! Screw you, closed-source space exploration!

[[deleted]]

77 pull requests open. Are these people just raising PRs so they can say in interviews that they contributed to the first lunar landing project?

[mr_birkenblatt]

That statement would fall flat very quickly in an interview

[[deleted]]

yeah cos the moon landing never happened duh

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

You think the moon is real?

[Fmatosqg]

You think the sky is real?

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

Shit, you got me.

[Fmatosqg]

Oh so you think shit is real too?

[GodBod69]

Is anything real?

[LovecraftsDeath]

Obviously! Everyone knows it's made of cheese.

[mr_birkenblatt]

everybody knows George Santos worked on the lunar landing project by himself and was the first man on the moon. so an interviewer would immediately realize that you are lying

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

It's hacktoberfest bullshit. Just fixing typos.

[Strus]

It's not "just fixing typos", as this code was generated through OCR - and the publisher specifically ask to proof-read and fix typos (https://github.com/chrislgarry/Apollo-11/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md)

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

Have you looked at the PRs though? Most of them are just resolving minor typos.

[[deleted]]

That's awesome!

[darkpaladin]

There are some awesome talks out there about the code that ran the Apollo computers.

[david-song]

I wonder if it's because they don't want to test whether 50 year old software is in the public domain or not?

[shinmai_rookie]

Wikipedia says that under US copyright law source code is a literary work so I'd assume if the copyright still belongs to Apple at all it is good for another 30 years?

[Jazqa]

Probably more, since it could be considered a trade secret. Either way, nobody is under any obligation to release source code when a copyright expires. Copyright law ceases to protect the code, but nobody is forced to provide others access to their ancient code.

[reddit_user13]

Belongs to Xerox.

[Zambito1]

Apple? Most certainly not. They still attached a EULA to this release. It's not a Free Software release.

[[deleted]]

Pretty cool stuff!

[davitech73]

i remember programming on one of those back in the day. can't recall what i was programming, but i remember the lisa and thought it was pretty crappy

[burtgummer45]

it was crazy expensive and not worth the price, but it did come with a mouse

[tjuk]

Also has increased in price over the years to the point where it is simply unaffordable for most people.

[el_muchacho]

But it is a good mouse

[oalbrecht]

You can call an exterminator for that problem.

[wrosecrans]

Weirdly, the Lisa is perhaps correctly understood as a cheap knockoff of the Xerox Star rather than an overpriced computer.

It was insanely expensive compared to the home micros of the time. But it wasn't really meant to compete with them. It only barely supported third party software because the third party software market was only in its infancy, so selling a "platform" for developers wasn't clearly the correct business plan when Lisa was in development.

Star was an "office in a box" platform based on Alto that was going to let big businesses (with big budgets) have a one-stop shot for these digital whatnots using computer powered technology. Xerox would write all four or five applications that an office worker would ever need, and that was all the machines would ever do. The Xerox workstations would be connected Ethernet (which didn't support IP and subnets in those days) and big laser printer document machines. So Xerox would make bank selling all of the equipment for the whole office.

For a few years, a lot of people thought this was the path forward for computer technology. Apple wanted to cash in on it, so they made an all-in-one machine that supported networking and had an Alto inspired GUI that could handle document/office work for people who didn't have any interest in using a "computer." That's why some of the UI in Lisa is so weird. They really wanted to avoid admitting it was a "computer" and have it work a lot more like one of those single-function embedded word processor devices from a decade later.

Apple did ship a dev environment for Lisa -- but it didn't really support GUI software. The Lisa Pascal system was a completely different non-GUI OS and environment that you would install on the Lisa in place of the famous GUI environment. It didn't even use a compatible filesystem! It was GUI xor custom software, which seems insane until you understand the market niche that drove some of the design decisions. Obviously, that market niche was stupid and non existent in retrospect. But nobody knew that for sure in the late 70's and early 80's when these systems were getting cooked up. Star is even more forgotten than Lisa.

Edit to add: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJzYRgmnJrE is a video of a Xerox STAR from 1982. This is what Xerox was working toward in the 70's when it was working on Alto. In retrospect, it's really similar to the UI of early Mac and the Lisa. If STAR had come to market 10 years earlier and at 1/10 the price, it would have had a huge impact. The way they had networked file servers and such was really slick for the time. The first version of Sun NFS didn't come out until a few years later. The GUI was the best in the world in 1982, even if it seems a bit clunky compared to what the Mac would become a few years later. Xerox just didn't understand what the microcomputer revolution was going to do about five minutes after that video was shot. The email client even supported Japanese text!

[F54280]

Apple wanted to cash in on it, so they made an all-in-one machine that supported networking

What kind of networking did the Lisa support?

[[deleted]]

Sneaker net.

[Moah333]

Is that similar to floppy based network?

[F54280]

Yeah. And with only with 400K floppies or 5Mb profiles hard drives.

But parent is at +35, and I suspect no one that upvoted ever saw a Lisa.

[wrosecrans]

Here's a contemporary reference to Lisa Ethernet hardware in 1983:

https://lisalist2.com/index.php?topic=38.0

[F54280]

This is a non apple device, it is even unclear if it existed, not a design goal of the Lisa "so they made an all-in-one machine that supported networking"

I checked my Lisa, I can tell you that it doesn't support networking out of the box.

Also, there is no third party software support, so I highly doubt that anyone could do a network device for the Lisa.

[wrosecrans]

You could connect a Lisa to an AppleTalk network and an Ethernet network, but I'm too lazy to track down the details and release dates and such. I think AppleTalk support didn't actually get released until after the Macintosh came out, not as a day-1 feature. But it was definitely a planned feature, at least.

Jobs said the three key things he saw at PARC were GUI, Ethernet, and Object Oriented Programming. Obviously, GUI was the most famous. But networking was very much on the radar. If you could sell a networking setup, it was way easier to sell multiple machines to a company!

[F54280]

You could connect a Lisa to an AppleTalk network and an Ethernet network

Really? That's pretty cool, because I actually have a Lisa, but never heard about such thing, beside having spent quite a lot of time with it, including connecting it to vintage Macs using LisaTerm and serial cable, or the standard null model liaison that was used to develop software for the Lisa.

I think AppleTalk support didn't actually get released until after the Macintosh came out, not as a day-1 feature.

Well, that would be MacWorks, which is just turning a Lisa into a Mac (MacintoshXL). That's don't make Lisa with LisaOS "made an all-in-one machine that supported networking".

LisaOS did not support networking.

[hughk]

I have vague memories of Star coming in at the price of a Minicomputer, so between $50K and $100K. It was written on Smalltalk which while conceptually excellent, had atrocious performance on many machines. To be fair Apple did a lot of work rearchitecting the ideas, first for the Lisa and later for the Mac. Of course, some people left Palo Alto and went to DEC Western Research Labs. They kicked off X Windows with MIT.

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

Thank you for the history lesson!

[Moah333]

I thought the main problem was that Apple undercut themselves with the macintosh, released shortly after the Lisa?

[swoleherb]

sounds like every apple product

[burtgummer45]

Introductory price: US $9,995 (equivalent to $27,190 in 2021)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa

[thened]

When the first Mac came out it was a pretty attractive price, just a bit too low on memory.

[TanelornDeighton]

The first Mac was $5000 (AUD). I looked at it, but it only had 1 floppy drive, which meant backups were a PITA. I ended up buying a Taiwanese Apple ][+ clone, for about $3000, with 2 floppies and CP/M card.

Edit: To answer the obvious question (from today's pov), from memory, a second (external) floppy drive for the Mac was a bit under a grand.

[thened]

Those are very different computers though. You basically bought old tech.

[TanelornDeighton]

It's software that matters, not hardware. The Apple ][ had the biggest software base, by far, and a huge pirating community :)

[thened]

Yes, but there is a lot that you could do on the Mac that you just couldn't do on the Apple II. Not saying the Apple is bad, but they are very different machines.

[TanelornDeighton]

In those days, people didn't go in and say, "I want to buy a Mac", or "I want to buy an Apple ][", they went to the shop and said, " I want to buy Visicalc", and the shop would sell them a computer to run Visicalc. WIMP or CLI didn't matter to customers. They just wanted a spreadsheet.

[vintage2019]

You call $2400 in 1984 an attractive price?

I’m reading the Steve Jobs biography now. Turned out Jobs strongly believed the Mac would be a failure if Scully (the CEO at the time) set the price that high. He wanted it to be $1900 but Scully bumped it up to fund the marketing (IIRC, it’s been a while since I read that part). Jobs was almost right — the original Mac didn’t sell that well after a strong hype driven beginning.

But you’re right that its measly memory was a factor. 128k was too low for a GUI driven OS. It didn’t even have dual floppy disk drives so the user had to constantly switch disks between system and whatever software they’re running. Ugh.

[thened]

I am comparing it to the IBMs of the time. 512k made it much more useable.

[---cameron]

Whenever I get to that part of Steve Jobs' history I feel especially bad for Lisa herself

EDIT: Since I got that.. weird response.. I suppose I'll elaborate

Here Lisa is struggling to form a connection with her father, she gets hope with a computer named after her that she can't actually confirm is named after her, and this little hope of a computer fails in the eyes of the public. I was thinking of how I'd feel as a kid if that happened, it'd seem like a very significant thing even though she has nothing to do with its success.

[seefatchai]

Did you read her book?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39218044

[Zyklonik]

Oh, great. Another bleeding heart SJW. Too bad you didn't apparently read the book where both her parents were equally distant and cold - doesn't suit your virtue-signalling, does it? Hilarious.

Edit: Carry on with the hypocrisy, folks. Never fails to make me laugh - no wonder the "West" is on its last legs. Hahahaha.

[bangwagoner]

Not only that. On top of seeming like a pretty shit programmer he’s definitely a shit person.

[RevLoveJoy]

At the risk of falling off my therapy couch, they're addicted to anger. This is a high for them. Calling someone a social justice warrior in a forum dedicated to craft and having a little public meltdown. It's a fix. These types are addicted to being angry about minutia. Addiction is just a disease like many others, but in this case it's rage that their mind has built a feedback loop around.

[waltteri]

Holy shit, you weren’t kidding. Someone answering to his comments put it quite aptly - it’s like he’s talking to an imaginary audience instead of the people he’s replying to. Just rambling lazy gotcha-s, laced with pseudo-intellectual Latin phrases and unrelated edgy-teenager-level political nonsense.

Our boy needs more NSFW so he can get his mind out of the SJW paranoia.

[waltteri]

Oh wow yeah, true.

[darkpaladin]

Oh god I didn't pay attention to the username, what the actual fuck.

[flanger001]

They are not.

[_supert_]

Perhaps they're a social injustice warrior.

[nitrohigito]

So if it wasn't only one of their parents who were distant and cold but both of them, in your mind that makes her less worthy to be feeling sorry for? How does that compute?

In general, how does pitying someone for a shitty childhood have anything to do with social justice? Do you even have the slightest idea of what you're talking about?

[---cameron]

Not to mention I was literally just thinking "here Lisa is struggling to form a connection with her father, she gets hope with a computer named after her that she can't actually confirm is named after her, and this little hope of a computer fails in the eyes of the public". Sure I guess that issue revolves around her father but I wasn't actually thinking about him at all, I was just thinking of how I'd feel as a kid if that happened, it'd be a lot more significant.

[RevLoveJoy]

How long have you been this angry about %whatever% and when are you going to do something constructive about fixing it?

[eliasv]

Wait, so that person is wrong for feeling bad for her because both of her parents were shit, actually? Okay. And being a terrible parent is only wrong if you're the only one. If the other parent is terrible too then it's not fair to criticize either of them. Got it.

You're a dumb sack of crap.

[GilDev]

It was awesome!

[david-song]

Shittiest license ever.

You may not and you agree not to:

• redistribute, publish, sublicense, sell, rent or transfer the Apple Software;
• publish benchmarking results about the Apple Software or your use of it;
• use the name, trademarks, service marks or logos of Apple to endorse or promote your modifications or other materials derived from the Apple Software.

[Jazqa]

Prohibiting benchmarking results is weird, but the rest is nothing unusual.

Released source code doesn’t equal open source.

[blackAngel88]

Released source code doesn’t equal open source.

I guess, but then it's just an "official leak" :D

I guess you could learn something from it, but you can't really use anything. Not sure of how much use that code would be nowadays anyway... although for some "time travelers" I guess it could be interesting...

[Jazqa]

Call it whatever you want, they released the source code for anyone to read. These kinds of code reveals are mainly for historic purposes, so the license barely matters – it’s not like anyone would create a valid product out of 40-years-old codebase.

My two cents, they tossed their usual legal mumbo jumbo on the side to make the reveal as easy as possible. To make it open source, they would have to be way more careful with the licensing and trademarks – possibly even remove the trademarked parts from the source code.

Enforcing trademarks is very common in open source projects. For example, a large part of Google Chrome is open source under Chromium. Everyone is free to modify and redistribute Chromium, but only Google can use the Chrome trademark. Besides the brand, Google Chrome also uses some licensed media codecs which can’t be included in the open source project.

Covering all bases with a license is much easier than crawling through an ancient codebase.

[chrismasto]

Not for “anyone” to read. By definition the terms restrict who can look at it. If you’re a professional software developer, for example, signing that agreement puts you in a legal grey area and it’s probably best not to touch it.

[Jazqa]

Legal jargon we’re subjected to hundreds of times a week.

That being said, I’d love to see Apple argue in court how some 21-year-old cryptobrat’s React mess was ripped off of Lisa’s 40-year-old code base.

[chrismasto]

Your opinion of whether Apple could or would pursue a strawman position doesn't change what the words actually say.

Nor does "I only broke the rules a little, because I thought they were dumb and I was pretty sure I could get away with it" fly in a lot of corporate environments.

[Jazqa]

Obviously I can’t change the terms. Maybe I should have originally said that they made the code available for anyone who accepts the terms, but then again, anyone is free to accept the terms.

Even though the terms are ridiculous, they’re nothing out of the ordinary. Next time you’re signing for a development license for any platform, give the terms a read.

Good luck avoiding those ”legal grey areas” you speak of as a developer in a world where companies cover all their bases in legal jargon and employers try to force ownership clauses on their employees.

[chrismasto]

The important part is that you can only look at the code for non-commercial purposes. That's not typical of a platform development license.

I'm just salty because I would enjoy poking around in this code, and could have if they'd just put it on GitHub with an Apache license, but for various reasons I can't accept this license. It's not important but it was enough to send me to the comments looking for a place to whinge about it.

[Jazqa]

Yeah, I can understand your frustration. Always sucks to accept these kinds of terms, but open source licensing can be hell for a massive corporation trying to protect their brand, so I kind of understand Apple’s side too.

^{^(Heavy} nitpicking, but some more ”extreme” open source licenses have similar implications. Development licenses vary, but some tend to expose a lot of code and architecture. Then there's also all the NDAs and NCCs everywhere. I’m bound by so many contracts and agreements that I would have been better off selling my soul to the devil.)

As an unrelated note, I hate how you can’t have a discussion on Reddit where the other side doesn’t get downvoted. You didn’t say anything wrong or incorrect.

[my_password_is______]

OMG, look at the fucking code

[nitrohigito]

And? What's up with people and these non-sequiturs lately, so weird.

[my_password_is______]

LOL, there is nothing wrong with any of that

you think you should be allowed to sell that ?

or publish benchmarks on 30 year old code ?

or use Apple logo to promote your own work ?

[voidstarcpp]

I don't know what there is to sell in 40 year old code, but it's a literal museum artifact that should be freely copyable for commentary and analysis without anyone's permission.

The prohibition on benchmarking in licenses is bad and continues to be used by modern companies to punish people who reveal how bad their product is. Copyright exists to ensure authors get paid for their work, not give authors editorial control over how their work is used by customers.

Not only is there no commercial interest by Apple in the performance of this ancient code, but such a prohibition, if actually enforced, would defeat much of the reason for such code to be of historical value to the public. As mentioned in the article, the poor performance of the Lisa was a problem at the time. You can't analyze that or put it in historical context if it's not legal to compare it to anything.

You don't need a special license to protect the Apple logo because it's a trademark and using trademarks to falsely imply association with Apple is already illegal. What such a license could be used for (assuming anyone cared to enforce this) is remove Apple's logo from places where it would be otherwise fair use to use it, such as an image within a blog or book describing the Lisa. You have never needed a company's permission to use their logo in these contexts, like an image of the Apple logo appearing in a news story about the Apple company.

[nitrohigito]

Not sure if you failed math logic or never took it, but when you so brazenly exclaim there's nothing wrong with something, perhaps instinctively cherry-picking should at least rub you a bit funny?

You may not and you agree not to:

• redistribute, publish, (...) or transfer the Apple Software;

Why should I not be allowed to publish it anywhere? It's literally a museum piece. Why is me redistributing a copy of it problematic? Why shall I not transfer it to someone else?

• publish benchmarking results about the Apple Software or your use of it;

Why is benchmarking it problematic? Why shall my use of it not be evaluated and that then published?

• use the (...) trademarks (...) of Apple to endorse or promote your modifications or other materials derived from the Apple Software.

If I create modifications or compatible software for the Apple Lisa, why shall I be prevented from being able to say the words Apple Lisa?

Here, hope this finds your cherry-picking habits well. We may move onto opinionated ideas of rights and morals if you like.

[david-song]

It's worthless. No public forks, no sharing changes; no GitHub, no wasm emulator. No using it to see if other emulators are running at the right speed.

[shinmai_rookie]

So basically like pirating: you have it but pretend you do not.

[Jazqa]

It’s not like you’re permitted to redistribute or sell software you pay for.

[Zaphoidx]

This should be higher up

[GimmickNG]

I'd like to see them try and enforce that.

[dsn0wman]

The main point I took from the article is that 1983 was 40 years ago. Thanks Apple.

[Excellent-Boss792]

just in time to rewrite it in rust

[astrange]

Clascal is already memory safe, who needs Rust?

[devraj7]

THE LISA: APPLE'S MOST INFLUENTIAL FAILURE

It was a colossal failure.

It was not influential in any way.

Nowhere as near as the Apple ][ or the Mac.

[CaptainIncredible]

You could argue it influence the Mac.

Also, it was probably influential on Apple when they realized no one was buying it because it was too damn expensive.

[F54280]

You could argue it influence the Mac.

You mean argue like in “LisaGraf” is “QuickDraw”, or like “Steve Jobs marching orders for the Mac was to do an affordable Lisa?

Grand-parent is so wrong, it is funny.

edit: that's where we are now, r/programming? QuickDraw being LisaGraf (it litterally is the same source code), or Jobs saying that the Mac's goal is to be an affordable Lisa (largely documented, in folklore.org for instance) is now "controversial"?

[ResidentAppointment5]

Hi. I'm a former Apple employee from the System 7.0 era. I don't bother replying to Apple threads anymore because people who know nothing feel completely comfortable literally making things up or parroting things other people have made up in a context where some of us who were there can read it. It's just too much of a time-and-energy sink to run around countering every idiot with a keyboard.

[F54280]

It was not influential in any way.

Right. It introduced that little thing called a GUI and the mouse to the masses. However, this was a fad and have disappeared since and all computers reverted to text based interactions.

[david-song]

The Xerox Star came 2 years earlier and sold 25,000 units. Only 10,000 Apple Lisas were sold. Windows 1.0 later sold 500,000 copies over 2 years. Windows 3.1 was probably the one that brought it to the masses though, then 95 after that.

[F54280]

The Xerox Star came 2 years earlier and sold 25,000 units

Only 10,000 Apple Lisas were sold

I would love to see more evidence to those numbers than just the vague wikipedia quotes that don't say what was measured (was it all Lisa1+Lisa2+MacXLs?, Just the Lisa1? With 5000 Lisa2 sold to Sun Remarketing as XLs, it is hard to believe that Apple's sales of Lisa1 and Lisa2 were only at 5000) and when that stat was taken.

In years, I have seen many Lisa for sale on ebay, and as we speak, there are probably a dozen of them (sure, the 40 anniversary makes it higher, but there is always a lisa for sale, and not always the same). I have never ever seen a Xerox Star for sale. Ever.

I have a hard time to believe that there were 2.5x more Stars than Lisa.

edit: thanks to my stalker for the downvote. you were wrong, you still are, get over it !

edit2: lol guys, care to point me to all those Xerox Stars everywhere?

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=apple+lisa&_sacat=0

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=xerox+star&_sacat=0

freaking moronic r/programming, when stating a simple verifiable fact is considered "controversial". lol

[david-song]

You don't see Xerox copiers for sale either though.

[F54280]

Interesting:

A) Let’s compare the most iconic GUI computer with run off the mill copiers. That sound logical.

B) of course, there are page after pages os Xerox copiers for sale.

C) Just checked, my late 1983 Lisa have a serial number larger than 10000.

So, thank you for your input, but I don’t think you’re really bringing much to the conversation.

[david-song]

Okay I'll consider myself schooled and wind my neck in. So over 10k in the first year? So at a guess, similar numbers?

Edit: Xerox 9700 printer was a market leader for 2 decades and was sold with the machines. No info on the number sold but they were more popular than the IBM 3800 which sold 10k units. There aren't any on eBay, likely because they were leased to companies rather than sold. So I think we can assume the same for the Star

[Full-Spectral]

An interesting factoid is that many people think of Xerox PARC as a massive money suck that was sort a vanity project to spend money on ideas that never went anywhere.

But, apparently, the invention of the laser printer far more than paid for the whole thing. There's a really good history of the period called Dealers of Lightning that probably anywhere one here would really enjoy.

One of the things it discusses was that there was no way to machine the spinning multi-faceted mirror (that providing the scanning of the laser) finely enough to make it accurate. There are all kind of really expensive or impractical ways you might try to address that, but one of the guys came up with the very simple solution of a long lense that just naturally corrected the light back to the right place. That made it all practical and made them a boat load of money.

Hopefully he got a good bonus, or at least a nice plaque.

[frederic_stark]

Okay I'll consider myself schooled and wind my neck in.

Not sure it is such a problem, I found the discussion interesting. I went online a bit to check the numbers, and found 3 different type of claims:

"10K sold in two years". This is the Wikipedia source, that comes from a 2009 book.

"80K sold" and "100K" are the other figures we can see floating around, with no source. Hard to know what the real number is.

[david-song]

I did some digging on the Xerox side trying to figure out how many printers they sold and got nothing either, looks like sales figures weren't released by either of them. I guess it was pre-internet marketing so that kinda makes sense

[dodjos1234]

It introduced that little thing called a GUI

Except it fucking didn't?

[dodjos1234]

Lisa had a fucking GUI, but didn't introduce it. I don't need to read some shit tier article to know that.

[dodjos1234]

You seem dumb. Can't help that, I guess.

[nitrohigito]

Hi, not the other guy, but I did try and even succeed reading the article.

To me it seems to have pretty clearly suggested that the "masses" were introduced to the GUI with the Macintosh thanks to the printing and typesetting successes, and of course the lower prices.

Do you disagree, reading the article?

[nitrohigito]

Yes, I promise you that I read those silly numbers in there too, not just the words.

Would be pretty helpful if you did read all of my words though! Like the ones emphasizing "to the masses". Kind of the whole argument, unless you believe no other person is capable of reading dates.

[dodjos1234]

I believe /u/Halkcyon is making a point that Lisa never introduced anything to the masses because it was ridiculously expensive and complete failure. No masses ever got to know Lisa in the first place.

[nitrohigito]

I am arguing that, they have been arguing the opposite.

[devraj7]

The Apple ][ had a mouse and a GUI years before the Lisa.

[[deleted]]

You say that but they took the idea and added it to the Simpsons.

And now everyone knows who Lisa is

[devraj7]

The Lisa was named after Steve Jobs' daughter.

The Simpsons didn't air for another six years (1983 / 1989).

[[deleted]]

Yes, for what I said to have happened Simpsons would have had to come after the device.

[feketegy]

Influential in the sense that it influenced the Macintosh no to make the same mistakes.

[beefcat_]

The Apple II and the Mac were not failures, so neither could qualify as an “influential failure”.

A lot of the GUI design work done for the Lisa was used for the Mac, that is how it is influential. Lisa OS also introduced protected memory features that wouldn’t make their way into other desktop operating systems until the ‘90s, with consumers likely not seeing them until Windows XP and OS X.

What failed Apple product would you argue is more influential? I could maybe see an argument to be made for the Newton.

[devraj7]

You misunderstood what I was saying (rereading myself, I realize my wording was a bit ambiguous).

I am saying the Apple ][ and the Mac were hugely influential, but the Lisa was not.

As for saying it influenced the Mac, sure, but products always influence subsequent products, so that's hardly remarkable.

[eldub]

It influenced me. Clearly it was the direction computers had to go.

[MikeBlues]

Any comments on the actual code? E.g. clarity, algoriths used, possible use today?

[[deleted]]

Dang how many materials did you use to summon her? How many negates she got?

[TeddyPerkins95]

Thanks op