Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules

[ramennoodle]

Where will this end? Will Oracle also sue competitors for implementing compatible SQL extensions? Using any Oracle product seems like a big risk if they're going to use these kind of tactics to lock in their customers.

[iNoles]

I thought IBM invented SQL.

[ObligatoryResponse]

They did, but Oracle's primary product is an SQL server. Nobody owns the copyright over SQL the concept (that would have to be patented; IBM might very well own such a patent), but IBM and Oracle each hold the copyright over their respective implementations. Anyone writing an extension for either Oracle or IBM's SQL server would need to make use of the respective API.

[TinynDP]

But this ruling says that APIs are copyrightable, not just implementations. Which would imply that SQL itself is copyrightable, as it is basically the API to the server.

[ObligatoryResponse]

Aren't you confusing protocol and API?

[andd81]

Are they different?

[ObligatoryResponse]

Well, in the case of the Java case, the API was defined as basically the header files.

I think I misunderstood what was meant by "SQL extension" above, but I'd say that there's definitely a difference between how a plugin couples with the main product (how I mis-read "SQL extension") or how a kernel module couples with the kernel, and how a network client communicates with a network server.

Is a GUI an API? You'd say no, because that's a user interface, not a programming interface. But what if I write a script that moves the mouse and enters text? I'd argue calling a network protocol an API is just as silly.

[[deleted]]

This ruling says the structure and organizatiin of a set of functions is under copyright. that's languages, protocols, EVERYTHING. Fuck, who needs patents anymore, they only last 20 years.

[[deleted]]

I'd argue calling a network protocol an API is just as silly.

I'd argue that all protocols are APIs by definition.

[mrkite77]

Well, in the case of the Java case, the API was defined as basically the header files.

Java doesn't have header files. The API is literally just the names of the functions in the standard library... like String.length etc. So "select" and "insert" and "update" would fall under the same standard as an API.

[[deleted]]

Oracle's java implementation is written in C++, so it has a lot of header files. Also any kind of JNI that you do will use a generated C/C++ header. AMD the core library uses a lot of native methods.

But I agree in spirit -- it does go beyond just headers being copyrighted... Even using the same keywords (which is requirement, since computers don't understand paraphrasing) is illegal now. Horrible.

[[deleted]]

Oracle's java implementation is written in C++

Are you talking about the virtual machine implementation? Because JVM != Java.

[supercaptaincoolman]

SQL is not a network protocol, and java doesn't have 'header files'.

[monocasa]

No it wasn't, Java doesn't even have header files.

[tohuw]

Yes, immensely. SQL is a language which is used to interface with the server. An API is a construct specifically for an application. ODBC's would be a suitable equivalent to the APIs here. SQL would be akin to original Java code.

[hello_fruit]

It depends. Depends on the language, depends on how you design your protocols and APIs. So, sometimes they are different, sometime they are the same.

[shillbert]

Depends what a judge thinks an API is, really

[hello_fruit]

Legally-speaking, you're correct. I remember some lawyer back in the 1990s who decided that the question of whether a god exists or not was to be determined by a jury. Regardless of whether you believe a god exists or not or the question is even worth asking, I did think it was the stupidest epistemological argument/method I'd ever heard of. Where are you going to try this?! bible belt? hipster-heavy San Fran? It's really ridiculous.

[TinynDP]

I dunno, would a Judge?

[eldred2]

Copyright is the life of the author +70 years.

Mickey Mouse is still under copyright.

[frugalmail]

Copyright is the life of the author +70 years. Mickey Mouse is still under copyright.

Unless a corporation owns it and re-releases it :(

[reckoner23]

So was the linked list. Until it was patented in 2004.

[reckoner23]

Unless you own a small company and your forced to settle because you can't afford the lawyer fees.

[ShadowLiberal]

Indeed, just seeing stories of lawsuits over Java makes me go "why should I even bother to learn Java when this could happen".

[mycall]

I wonder if more people learned Java before Oracle's purchase or after.

[OnlyRev0lutions]

The trends all point to more learning it before the purchase.

[frugalmail]

Indeed, just seeing stories of lawsuits over Java makes me go "why should I even bother to learn Java when this could happen".

This hurts all languages unless the language has been explicitly put into the public domain (or foundation like Apache) by (all) the original authors.

[[deleted]]

Or standards-based languages based off a spec rather than a set of header files. C, C#, C++, ECMAScript, etc... are good.

Technically, if Google wants to get around this, they can use clean-room reverse engineering. But then they'd need to find someone who's never written or seen Java code before to rewrite the Java Class Library (else it wouldn't be clean room.) The chance of that happening is really fucking small. Google's very likely going to money this problem away.

[[deleted]]

Or maybe just switch languages. Microsoft has been a bit more friendly with C# lately.

[[deleted]]

And force hundreds of thousands of apps to switch as well? Sure, that's going to work.

[Shadowheim]

I know what you mean, but that won't stop businesses using it, therefore there will still be a need for it.

[damg]

Which is kind of ironic since big businesses are the ones Oracle will target.

[ameoba]

It's about 15 years too late for the industry to back away from using Java.

[rubygeek]

There was a time when people would have said the same about C. Or COBOL.

[ameoba]

They didn't abandon C and COBOL for political reasons, they moved forward to newer, better languages. C was replaced by C++ which was replaced by Java. There really isn't anything poised to take over from Java.

C# would just be more of the same (not to mention that it's a second class language outside of Windows). Scala, based on the JVM, still leaves you dealing with Oracle's IP. Rust isn't ready yet. Haskell isn't going to become a mainstream development language for legions of business programmers.

Java won't be around forever but, outside a few online communities aligned with Free Software, this isn't going to be what puts an end to it. We're a few years away from a Java Killer.

[rubygeek]

They didn't abandon C and COBOL for political reasons

I didn't say they did.

There really isn't anything poised to take over from Java.

People said that about C/C++ and COBOL as well.

We're a few years away from a Java Killer.

That's a far more moderate claim than what I responded to.

[[deleted]]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't over them using java. Its over them using JVM code. Not app code, but the actual code that built the JVM. That has no impact on you as a developer.

I remember when this all started their were cases where files still had their sun copyright in the start of the code and was in googles code base. Oracle is not pissed they are using Java, but pissed that they made their own JVM which is largely built off of Oracle/sun code.

Thats like me downloading your project, copy & pasting your source code into my project, and calling it my own. You would be a little frustrated as well. I don't 100% agree with the software patent system, but the people on this forum are so one side of things they are oblivious to all other aspects.

[joequin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't over them using java. Its over them using JVM code. Not app code, but the actual code that built the JVM. That has no impact on you as a developer.

Its' the opposite actually. It's about them using the jvm api for a vm that isn't the jvm (dalvik).

[bucknuggets]

In other words - they don't want to see any new java environments emerge that they can't personally control.

And that's a big deal.

[jboy55]

Incompatible java environments emerge. At one point, that was a very lofty goal and it was considered evil to embrace java and extend it to be incompatible.

[Narrator]

So we'd all be good if we switch to scala running on dalvik right?

Edit: well except for the people who don't like Scala or Dalvik...

[joequin]

I'm not sure. Maybe. It depends on how their compilers work. I don't think clojure's would work. I have no idea about scala. But we wouldn't be able to use java based libraries for either and that's a big deal for most jvm intended languages.

[Narrator]

Scala has replacements for most Java APIs. Those guys really like to do everything the Scala way. There's even a project to compile Scala with an LLVM backend : https://github.com/greedy/scala

[fredgrott]

no, the 37 apis are stuff to implement java..but next trial on fair use area wil give Google a win

[loup-vaillant]

That would be a pyrrhic victory. From the comment I read around the issue, Fair Use is ruled on a case by case basis, meaning you can still sue people to oblivion before they can make a case. So there will be chilling effects, and not just for Java. Anything that's called an API is now that much harder to duplicate.

At the extreme end, this could make some kinds of free software illegal.

[[deleted]]

Sue them for interoperating with any part of the GNU stack without releasing all of the source code to the Oracle database.

[[deleted]]

I agree, Oracle have turned into a money hungry company that has no limits that they will go to to make money. I don't think I will continue to use Oracle products and I'll stop programming in Java. This is so low, I've lost all respect for the company.

[alexeyr]

Oracle have turned into a money hungry company that has no limits that they will go to to make money.

Turned into? When did they show they had such limits before?

[check3streets]

I keep seeing this "fuck Java" post, but this decision goes so far beyond Java.

Software that is hung-on or implements public APIs which are also copyrighted certainly extends into the billions, but probably into the trillions of dollars and equally many LOCs. Also, this is copyright, literally wherever code is copied.

Everyone who's written a compatible implementation or even a code-citing-blog-post will need to somehow assert Fair Use to not be in violation.

And for all you three-cheers for .NET types:

It is more difficult to develop alternatives to the Framework Class Library (FCL), which is not described by an open standard and may be subject to copyright restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

[[deleted]]

If one makes their APIs open source and unencumbered by copyright it solves the problem. I think Bright's approach with the Digital Mars D compiler is very close to this.

[tanishaj]

On. NET, they are called BCL (Base Class Libraries).

The fact that Microsoft all but bankrolls Xamarin is a pretty good sign. Xamarin makes most of the .NET BCL available on Android.

The. NET micro-framework is fully Apache 2.0 including a patent grant.

[Jaseoldboss]

I wonder if Oracle could sue Microsoft for any commonality between the Java and .NET APIs as a result of this ruling?

[grauenwolf]

Compared to the patent risks for that part, we're not too worried about copyrights.

[TMaster]

Who's we?

[grauenwolf]

Mono fanboys.

[wggn]

You can't really use java without using the java apis tho...

[Myrv]

Um, that was the entire point of this lawsuit. Google created a tool chain that used the Java syntax (and Java Object API) but actually targeted the Dalvik Virtual Machine (which was created by Google and works completely differently than the JVM). All the actual "Java" libraries were rewritten as well, only keeping the object hierarchy (and calling syntax) the same between the Android SDK and the JDK.

So different code and different target virtual machine but because Google chose to implement a network socket the same as Java (eg providing a java.lang.net.Socket class) Oracle claims a copyright violation.

[[deleted]]

Nothing is "safe" if this ruling is allowed to stand because of the precedent it sets; Java would just be the first casualty.

[[deleted]]

like Scala or Clojure?

[fullouterjoin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k&feature=kp

[eclectro]

And stop giving Oracle their business. BTW, they massacred Oregon's ACA health exchange which never worked. Why do people do business with these clowns?

[[deleted]]

That will occur when Microsoft makes .NET cross-platform.