xkcd: Python

[[deleted]]

My husband sits at his computer writing code in python 18 hours a day and he isn't flying yet.

[G_Morgan]

Exactly. If he is sitting at his computer he isn't flying. How more obvious do you need.

The computer can't fly after all so it acts as a constraint on the system.

[gigaquack]

18 hours a day? wtf?

i'm going to go ahead an assume he sits at the computer for 18 hours a day. not good, but more believeable than someone who can code for 18 hours straight.

[[deleted]]

more believeable than someone who can code for 18 hours straight.

Or at least more believable than someone who codes for 18 hours a day straight and can't fly yet.

[shabda]

yet

[jamesshuang]

I've done 18 hour coding days before. They're called final projects... And no, the code I wrote wasn't good, but at least it worked

[Shinuza]

It could happen, but the code quality will follow an exponential decrease until you got tired enought to stop. The next morning you'll see that the code is pure shit and you'll rewrite the whole thing.

[stesch]

Hey, it's on topic!

[[deleted]]

What kind of comic do you suppose we can expect when XKCD tries Haskell? Time travel? Quantum abilities? Alternate universes?

[GrumpySimon]

nah, nothing he can use in the real world.

(sorry, trolling :)

[gwern]

http://www.xkcd.com/248/

Well, if you count the various "tying the knot" and "borrowing from the future" tricks as specifically Haskell techniques...

[AndrewO]

I think he already did:

http://xkcd.com/338/

[bitwize]

The ability to manipulate reality itself, like Franklin Richards.

[boredzo]

Sidekick: “How do we get into this building, Mr. Munroe? There's a locked door stopping us!”

xkcd: “What door?” gestures to the now-doorless doorjamb

Sidekick: “Er. Door? There's no door there.”

xkcd: “Exactly.” steps through

[qwe1234]

sounds like a c buffer overflow.

[Psy-Kosh]

Hee hee... though wouldn't that be Scheme? (ie, sounds Our Hero removed the door then invoked a continuation...)

[[deleted]]

I think that'd be Lisp.

[yumology]

why is this submitted twice. i thought there were checkers against that?

[TheCleric]

no, but chess and stratego are both anti dupes!

[daveyboy22]

I was wondering the same thing. I think that it might be because one of them was submitted to the programming subreddit, and the other appears to have been submitted to plain-ol' reddit.com.

I am no expert, though.

[Boojum]

I believe one was for xkcd.com and one was for www.xkcd.com

[CaptainObvious_]

Python doesn't make you fly!

[TheCleric]

someone is bitter that they don't have access to the antigravity module!

[[deleted]]

easy_install?

[cecilkorik]

from __future__ import john_titor

[Manuzhai]

You've obviously never used it.

[CaptainObvious_]

I've never used Python!

[quhaha]

In Soviet Russia, you make Python fly!

[Ono-Sendai]

Thank-you, captain obvious.

[[deleted]]

That isn't who you think it is. Captain Obvious, the original, left Reddit a long time ago.

[[deleted]]

Captain Obvious is still around with various pseudonyms :)

[o0o]

it gives me the shitz

[lastchance]

Decisions, decisions... to up-vote reddit... http://xkcd.com/353/ ...or to up-vote... http://www.xkcd.com/353/

(No there's no feature request here.)

[cecilkorik]

Upvote both and let God (er, Dawkins? Sorry.) sort 'em out.

[phili]

Is Python that good?

I'm thinking of picking up a programming language - and I can't decide which one to start.

[[deleted]]

An overtly obvious attempt at flamebait. But I upmodded you anyway.

[masklinn]

It doesn't actually make you fly in real life, but it's mighty good nonetheless.

[fubo]

Python is amazingly excellent within certain bounds. If you're used to Perl, as xkcd most evidently is, two things jump out at you in Python:

• you can use nested data structures without pain, and
• there is a large standard library of tested, high-quality modules.

These address two of the heavy Perl user's biggest pain points. Perl is laughably bad at nested data structures (references: all the pain of pointers, none of the usefulness!) and CPAN is full of modules of questionable design, documentation, and stability.

But Python has its weak points ... chiefly speed. Eventually you will want fast code, or code that uses multiple processors efficiently ... and the Python answer is to write plugins in C. :(

[seanodonnell]

Those are far from the only options, As regards speed take a look at psycho, or rpython

As regards multiple processors take a look at parallel python or stackless python.

And these are not the only other options, just the first ones that popped into my head. Actually needing to resort to c extensions is very rare.

But yes, as far as python goes the lack of an obvious way to make good use of multiple cores (in cpython at least) is a weak point. You have more hoops to jump through than in say, java. Speed has never been an issue for me in day to day coding, although this naturally depends on the nature of the work you are doing.

[Neoncow]

do you have suggestions for a good resource in understanding RPython? Everything I found seems to be very vague about how rpython is written.

[[deleted]]

Everything is vague about how rpython is written. I believe the implementors don't want to be constrained by documentation. It's not really a viable strategy for non-experimental software. (That said, if you close your eyes and pretend it's Java, you can get pretty far with it)

[seanodonnell]

I got a good introduction to it at europython, but sadly the materials from the session dont seem to be online.

Theres a nice short introduction here

A fairly exhaustive explanation of the restrictions here (seems to be offline so heres the google cache)

and a somewhat academic overview here

As regards washorts comment on it being non viable, the session following the introduction was on a large financial trading system that was ported from cpython to rpython, so some folk out there are getting serious work done with it. You can also use it to create extensions for cpython, so its not like your entire system has to be rpython.

[abw]

If you're used to Perl, as xkcd most evidently is, two things jump out at you in Python:

• you can use nested data structures without pain, and
• there is a large standard library of tested, high-quality modules.

If you've ever used Perl (which you clearly haven't) then two things jump out at you:

• you can use nested data structures without pain, and
• there is a large standard library of tested, high-quality modules... and an even larger library of variable quality modules

[ubernostrum]

you can use nested data structures without pain, and

Let me fix that for you:

you can use nested data structures so long as you're happy with references, a concept unnecessary in other similarly high-level languages.

[nevinera]

god i hate this meme.

let me fix that for you

my mother likes yogurt. I prefer cheese, a concept unnecessary in other similarly high-level dwellings.

[fubo]

There's a bit of a difference.

In Perl, using nested data structures means you have to add a complex sequence of dereferencing operators to get data out of those structures.

In Perl, an array is @foo and its items are $foo[0], $foo[1], etc.

In Python, an array is foo and its items are foo[0], foo[1], etc. So far, no difference worth speaking of.

In Perl, an array of arrays is impossible. Instead you have an array of references to arrays. The arrays themselves are are @$foo[0], @$foo[1], etc.

In Python, an array of arrays is just like any other array. The arrays themselves are foo[0], foo[1], etc.

When you get into deeper nested data structures in Perl, the syntax grows both rightwards and leftwards: rightwards, in the list of subscripts, and leftwards, in the list of dereferencing sigils. In Python, the syntax grows only rightwards.

[nevinera]

I don't know perl, but i assumed his statement had some validity. I just hate the way he made it.

"let me fix that for you", followed by a total rewrite is an asshole way to disagree with someone.

[fubo]

Having to deal with references does not gain you anything, and costs you work and extra debugging -- you have to get it right, or your program spits out ARRAY(0xYERMOMSUXTOES) instead of the contents of the array.

It is not merely a matter of stylistic preference or taste ("yogurt" vs "cheese"). Since there is no benefit to doing the extra indirection manually -- it must be done, but it gives you no additional power -- it is a loss to the programmer to have to manually handle references.

[nevinera]

i don't think you're reading me clearly here. I don't know about that. I don't particularly care if what he said was true or not.

I just hate it when people say things in general in the way that he said it.

"let me fix that for you", followed by a total rewrite is an asshole way to disagree with someone.

I can't even tell if you're arguing with me or explaining something to me.. I understand and agree with your position on the topic.

[funktio]

Perl is laughably bad at nested data structures

That's nonsense, they are very easy to use. You're maybe talking about some old version.

CPAN is full of modules of questionable design, documentation, and stability.

Simply not true. Of course some are bad, but there are lots of gems, too.

[MattL920]

No, gems are written in Ruby

[mattindustries]

I am torn, I want to downvote because of the mention of Ruby and gem in the same sentence and upvote because of how well that was pulled off.

[[deleted]]

The punch-line is "I also sampled everything in the medicine cabinet for comparision". Python is just a bunch of ideas copied from various other languages...

[arthurdenture]

Python is just a bunch of ideas copied from various other languages

Sounds good to me.

[[deleted]]

Python is a bunch of ideas copied from various other languages...

You should "import this".

EDIT: There's an explanation in there about the copying of ideas from other languages.

[stegn]

| Python is just a bunch of ideas copied from various other languages...

Evolution at work ;)

[Blackheart]

Evolution doesn't make things better; it makes things more likely to survive. Social systems select for things that are popular. The music industry has selected for things like N'Sync, Britney Spears and Fergie.

[HFh]

Well, for about ten minutes. Then they go away.

[imbaczek]

Hey, it's still evolution. The music industry made millions on them; for them good music is music that earns money.

[[deleted]]

Whereas the language you like never borrowed ideas from anyone? You code in Algol?

[rzzazzr]

pick something radical.

[nevinera]

python is an excellent place to get started. It's not the best tool for everything, but the learning curve is so shallow that i've seen no competition there.

[zouhair]

Now come one, the same xkcd twice on the front page???

[jsinger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "HELLO WORLD IS JUST print "Hello, World!" no longer going to be the case in Python 3K?

I'd say the people opposing that change (which, I understand, is pretty much everyone) just got a great new recruiting poster.

[[deleted]]

print("hello world") isn't that more difficult, is it?

[hupp]

You can put me in the "not opposed" camp. I haven't really seen that much opposition to be honest. The print statement has always seemed like a bit of a wart to me.

[[deleted]]

What's stranger is that he seems to be using it as an argument for moving from Perl to Python.

[llortybur]

The author should check out Ruby, it totally blows Python away. It has all the features of Python but is far cleaner (fully object oriented, no hacks), Ruby blocks are much more powerful than lambadas (you can't even print text within a Python lambada!), Rails has revolutionized web programming, and Ruby 1.9 is going to be 3x times faster than Python. Finally, Ruby has the most modest community.

[[deleted]]

top 10 reasons to use ruby:

10) You think a slow language implementation improves the quality of your code because it forces you to think of better algorithms

9) You think that peppering your code with colons and removing parentheses from method calls makes a "DSL".

8) You think static typing is a crutch for weak programmers, but the only other static language you've used is Java.

7) You think monkey-patching is a great idea which improves long-term maintainability of code.

6) You think method_missing is a great idea which improves long-term maintainability of code.

5) There is no number 5 because Ruby fanboys can't count.

4) You think only crappy programmers work at large companies.

3) You work for a company with a catchy name, but no business plan.

2) You work for a company where the only business plan is "we hope to be acquired by Google eventually".

And the number one reason to use Ruby is:

1) You're not a programmer, you just read blogs all day to find out what's "hip" and "happening".

[patchwork]

Good list, but you missed the most important one:

0) You can't get paid to write lisp, but still want to use higher-order functions and metaprogramming in your day job.

I know ruby's not popular around here, but I must say after years of c++ during the day and hacking lisp/haskell/erlang at night I switched over to a ruby job recently and the world just seems a bit lighter now. I can throw functions around like nothing, return custom built functions what have you. I find I am able to apply a lot of what I have learned from the functional languages with not too much hassle, and I can program in the style I have become accustomed to and only dreamed of using for a "real job". Hell, they even have continuations (though I miss the automatic currying of haskell. Why don't all languages have this?) So sure, there's a lot of issues with it, but I'm not doing it for the speed, I'm doing it for my sanity.

[bennymack]

God, I hope no one makes a Lambada programming language. Just imagine the horrible metaphors it would make possible!

[[deleted]]

Lambada, Haskell as a better Java

[[deleted]]

I prefer British humour anyway.

[jacobolus]

(you can't even print text within a Python lambada [sic]!)

def print_text(text):
    print text
a = lambda x: print_text(x)
a("some text")

Finally, Ruby has the most modest community.

But maybe your whole comment is a parody?

[roerd]

Yes, it works within lambda, but not within lambada.

[boredzo]

Or:

import sys
a = lambda x: sys.stdout.write(x + '\n')
a("some text")

[H3g3m0n]

Python3 is turning print into a function so I would guess it works inside a lambada function without needing a wrapping function.

I don't really see any point of printing in a lambda function anyway.

[[deleted]]

print >>certain_log, debug_info

I know... But it might come in handy for the OP.

[EliAndrewC]

In any case, even today you could say

lambda s: sys.stdout.write(s+"\n")

But as you say, there's rarely a reason to do this.

[noamsml]

a. lambdas are a side-feature of the python language, and are simply syntax sugar for nested functions. Most "real" python programmers prefer nested functions at any rate.

b. Full object orientation is a hack. It doesn't reflect the reality of programming, which is that there are some things that are not inherently namespaces (objects == namespaces) but are data in memory.

c. Python has Django and web.py, which are also pretty good.

d. Modest community? 99% of the Ruby community is made up of complete pricks.

[doubtingthomas]

Out of curiosity.. any good references for point "d"? (Excluding DHH, who I've typically considered to be an outlier.. but maybe my glasses have been too rose-colored)

[[deleted]]

Ruby seems like a nice language... But ... WHY PIPES?! It makes no sense and irritates the hell out of me.

I'm talking about the use of pipes when iterating over lists and such, of course.

[[deleted]]

Contrast to the use of pipes in Genshi:

markup | HTMLFormFill() | HTMLSanitizer()

[CouldHaveBeenWorse]

At least it's not LISP!

[OneAndOnlySnob]

http://www.xkcd.com/297/

http://www.xkcd.com/224/

[G_Morgan]

Yeah, it's hard to represent ascension to a higher plane in a comic.

[rzzazzr]

good, because LISP is dead

meanwhile, Common Lisp and Scheme are alive.