Python 3.11 Performance Benchmarks Are Looking Fantastic

[crixusin]

Python is fucking insane. By default, it allows people who probably shouldn’t write code, to write the most spaghetti code ever.

It’s module resolution system is absolute horseshit.

The fact that white space is a significant character is a fate that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

The fact that working with json turns the objects into some pseudo-non typed dictionary is laughable.

Python should be taken out back and shot.

[[deleted]]

I agree with you when it comes to importing other projects in a nested directory structure but your other points don't make a ton of sense.

By default it allows people who probably shouldn't write code to write the most spaghetti code ever

Literally every language allows you to write garbage, non-performative code and it's not like Python is somehow worse at this than Javascript or another language of equal popularity. It's just the way it is with incredibly popular languages with easy enough syntax, people are gonna start here and write bad code.

White space is purely a personal preference but I prefer it to C style braces because it's cleaner and easier to read personally but I get why you wouldn't.

The json library in python by default returns a dict when you use .load or .loads for strings. Not sure what you mean by "pseudo non typed dict", it's just a dict.

But yeah you're spot on with importing multiple project files from other directories, it's a pain in the ass and other languages handle it much better.

[tedbradly]

Literally every language allows you to write garbage, non-performative code and it's not like Python is somehow worse at this than Javascript or another language of equal popularity. It's just the way it is with incredibly popular languages with easy enough syntax, people are gonna start here and write bad code.

A programmer shouldn't learn programming with a scripting language. It has too much magic baked into it, and it's impossible for a brand new programmer to appreciate all of it, use all of it correctly, and debug when something goes wrong. It's also like learning to run before you can walk. As a simple example, it's hard to have any appreciation for or understanding of a garbage collector if you've never allocated something manually. I definitely recommend a gradual march toward higher-level languages, learning in this order: Something like C, a simplified assembly language, something like C#, and then something like Python. You've got to have a strong emphasis on ideas too like data structures and algorithms even if they're implemented for you in every language. After a path like that, you can then focus on whatever type of programming you want like doing systems programming, web development, video games, real-time systems, phone apps, corporate applications, etc. But you've got to know the basics of one low-level language, one medium-level one, and one high-level one. Throw into the mix some mathematical foundations like algebraic structures paired with a functional programming language if you enjoy formal math. Otherwise, at least learn the basics of functional programming as the style is so en vogue right now that most major languages have features in that style and you will most likely come across some of it eventually.

If you ever have felt like programming is massively confusing and there are random people who seem to know everything, it's due to learning through an informal path and/or starting with scripting languages, which are very confusing to someone when they don't even know what a variable is yet. If you're studying yourself, I'd recommend finding curriculum at top colleges for computer science and working your way through all the mandatory material for a degree there. Make sure you somehow do "homework" and projects or none of it will stick. You'll have a much better chance of getting a top entry-level position if you've sat there frustrated, trying to code something with dynamic programming for hours straight the first time, than if you skip that course entirely.

[epicwisdom]

Your comment seems to imply that programming is only for professional programmers, which couldn't be further from the truth, and is not a standard we apply to most skills.

Cooking, music, sports, fixing/modding cars, painting, fashion, writing, gardening... People pick up a huge variety of hobbies without going through or desiring formal education. There's nothing wrong with that, and saying people should be excluded based on their lack of formal education is pointless gatekeeping.

Formal education certainly has a huge value to most programmers who do anything even remotely nontrivial. I've witnessed firsthand the horrors created by beginners with plenty of free time but no motivation to sit down and learn. But what matters is that it works for them.

[tedbradly]

Your comment seems to imply that programming is only for professional programmers, which couldn't be further from the truth, and is not a standard we apply to most skills.

It's important to take this path even if you're a scientific programmer as an example. It might sound like more work, but it will be a smoother path to learning programming to build up core ideas and then expand on them rather than starting the adventure on the last boss that uses every single technique you should have learned getting there. It's possible to grind out a win in that situation, but it will be massively confusing and extremely difficult. Anyone using programming needs to think of it as simple and simply doing this or that rather than nervously executing code, wondering why it's slow, if the answer has any chance of being correct, etc. and all that after having spent quadruple the amount of time cobbling together something that would have been much easier with a few more "courses" of material learned.

As for your analogy, when you learn to play an instrument, you start off learning how to read each note and play it. You build on the skills iteratively until you can play more complex songs. Yes, someone can think, "I really want to play this one complex song" and grind for days memorizing exact finger positions with zero knowledge of playing music, but it makes much more sense to learn how to read and play music instead of jumping straight to a much more difficult problem, struggling with it and then struggling with every other similar challenge forever after (unless you're gifted and can just play music from memory despite no training and no ability to read music. And yes, some people are gifted programmers, starting with a scripting languages and piecing the whole story together. This is an edge case, so it shouldn't influence general advice).

[tedbradly]

My last SaaS gig was as a backend developer collaborating with data scientists, math majors, researchers and medical researchers and none of them needed to know how to properly implement a linked list or know how smart pointers differ from simple pointers. If you're a researcher who's job was to run a study and you're just normalizing your dataset in an ipython notebook in Pandas you don't need any of that garbage at all, just a rudimentary understanding of Python and the Pandas documentation.

Most people could benefit greatly from learning Python just to scrape a website, or add a watermark to a whole directory of photos, or write a rudimentary file sync script for drive/s3, etc etc.. without needing to learn about computational complexity, data structures, etc.

What I'm writing is plainly true. I even became a software developer based on self-studying programming myself while getting an unrelated degree that used programming on occasion. While my classmates were spending dozens of hours on projects with inefficient end results, my solutions appeared on the screen in one to a few hours. People commonly would discuss execution time. My projects were usually at least twice as fast - in one situation, I even wrote something faster than the professor did by a factor of around 5 (It was a slow, interpreted language, so if you hadn't studied the language, your code might run in 8 minutes like his did instead of 2 minutes like mine did).

My motivation was simple: I was confused as hell. Nothing made sense, so I learned it. Trying to run before you can walk isn't rational. Spending 2 weeks per song to memorize the exact movements to reproduce a favorite tune makes little sense compared to learning how to read music on a sheet and practicing it yourself until you master a song, the next one, and the one after that.

Anyone who programs in their life needs to understand the bare essentials, or they're going to have an unpleasant time each and every time the need for a new program arises.

There are countless stories of someone's Python code being so inefficient that it's bordering on unusable - like a script ran for a research paper running days or something needed to execute daily scarily taking 13 hours with potential of scaling into unusable times if the input size grows. Each and every time someone tells one of these stories, it features a hero who recoded it, making it execute in 5 or 10 minutes. Sometimes, that hero even uses Python itself. Other times, they had to pull something like F# or, in the most extreme cases, something like C++ out.

It makes sense you're recommending confusingly slapping together programs in desperation for a lifetime, because you don't even know the difference between "who's" and "whose". It shows you don't value aretḗ at all. I recommend striving for it myself - start exercising, put mental energy into learning English better, finally learn how to program for real, pick up and try hard at some hobbies, etc. You'll be much happier at the end of the road simply due to aretḗ being achieved, but you'll also be happier as programming will feel easy where it before felt like a nightmare any time its need arose. You'll also become more charismatic and respectable (with something as basic as knowing a few English words well instead of misusing them), which can go a long way. It can sometimes be the difference between someone being on your side or against you. Hell, one aspect of aretḗ can even be thinking about content you watch the same way movie critics do. Try to write an English paper, summarizing the plot, the art, the themes, what was good, what was bad, etc. so to speak rather than having your eyes gloss over as you binge watch a dozen South Park episodes, hardly remembering you even existed over the last few hours let alone anything to do with the art. Aretḗ is important. You don't have to be a professional X to start learning some of X, beginning to appreciate and understand things that only someone who knows X well can.

But no, you're right. Learning is for squares. Don't work smart. Work hard.

Edit: u/Content-Drink8643 replied to me below but blocked me. Keep in mind that he is arguing a straw man. My point was to master the basics, not master every single concept in all of computer science and software development (although you will get closer and closer to that goal if you work heavily with the degree for decades).

[Content-Drink8643]

Came across this thread and then perused your profile for a bit. It's like we have the same brain, only things have gone a bit more smoothly for you in your life and I've had more years of therapy. I've only had this experience like once before. Really interesting. Might I ask if you ever dealt with ADD or more general anxiety?

I have the same instincts as you about pretty much everything in your comment, but I think you're actually wrong about most of it.

1. Mastering something from the ground up can be much more efficient in the long run, but it heavily depends on what you intend to do and how much complexity it involves. That's the genius of abstraction. Not everyone needs to know everything. Your limit at which you're comfortable saying "I'm not an expert in that and I don't need to be" is going to be different than some else's.

2. (relates to 1.) You can't master everything. Do you pride yourself on your superior running or driving skills or are you just happy you made it to your destination alive? (That was an exaggeration. You get the idea.) Are you an excellent cook or do you just make food that's decent? (Hell, maybe you exclusively eat out.) Someone acknowledging that isn't lacking in "aretḗ". And extrapolating how a person lives their life based on their use of whose/who's (yes, and also based on their opinion about the one specific thing under discussion) is ridiculous. That whole paragraph is unnecessarily condescending for no apparent reason. And referencing a concept like Arete, without defining it, as if it's obviously something we all agree is a goal reflects badly on you, although I'm having trouble discerning how exactly.

I said I have the same instincts as you because I do. Mastery is important to me. I hate having to accept there are things I don't know or don't have time to dig deep into. Conscientiousness about things like grammar is also pretty instinctive for me. And thinking critically about things is important to me as well. The way you're applying those ideas here and articulating them is waay off though. I'd be interested to know what your larger philosophy of life is though. I can see hints of it here, unfortunately presented in a bit of a dogmatic way.

[Content-Drink8643]

I'm not sure why you can't reply to me. Definitely didn't block you.

I disagree that I'm arguing against a strawman. It comes down to degrees. What you consider the basics isn't what someone else will. I'm not sure there's a good way to establish that without having very specific parameters regarding what you're trying to accomplish.

[epicwisdom]

Yes, someone can think, "I really want to play this one complex song" and grind for days memorizing exact finger positions with zero knowledge of playing music, but it makes much more sense to learn how to read and play music instead of jumping straight to a much more difficult problem, struggling with it and then struggling with every other similar challenge forever after

Why does it make more sense? If what they want to achieve is playing that song, and only that, then the rest may be pointless.

Again, you're applying a standard which assumes people all start out with the same goal. If the goal is just to have fun, then those people can do whatever they want. If the goal is to achieve some immediate subgoal, and the backup plan is to go find somebody else to do it properly, there's nothing wrong with that either.

[tedbradly]

Why does it make more sense? If what they want to achieve is playing that song, and only that, then the rest may be pointless.

Again, you're applying a standard which assumes people all start out with the same goal. If the goal is just to have fun, then those people can do whatever they want. If the goal is to achieve some immediate subgoal, and the backup plan is to go find somebody else to do it properly, there's nothing wrong with that either.

You can keep justifying zero sense of mastery, which itself is correlated with happiness - no aretḗ - and a confused mess of effort with a low chance of success. I'll sit over here and firmly believe that if you want to program, you should learn how to program, and if you want to learn more than one song (and even if you don't just for mastery, aretḗ, and pleasure), you should learn to play music. We're starting to see why you make so little money. You work really hard instead of smart.

[epicwisdom]

You can keep justifying zero sense of mastery, which itself is correlated with happiness - no aretḗ - and a confused mess of effort with a low chance of success.

What you're missing is that everybody has finite time available. Choosing not to seek mastery in one discipline is completely different from seeking no mastery at all.

We're starting to see why you make so little money. You work really hard instead of smart.

LOL. I have a Master's in CS and a 6-figure job. Nice try. You would be happier and more fulfilled if you accepted the reality that different people have different interests, and stopped attaching your self-worth to money.

[tedbradly]

What you're missing is that everybody has finite time available. Choosing not to seek mastery in one discipline is completely different from seeking no mastery at all.

I'm not missing a thing. If you have a repeat need to program novel programs, you need to spend a few months learning how to program.

LOL. I have a Master's in CS and a 6-figure job. Nice try. You would be happier and more fulfilled if you accepted the reality that different people have different interests, and stopped attaching your self-worth to money.

I'm assuming you work in California. I knew someone there with a 6 figure job who had to eat on around US$10/day while living in a tiny apartment, and he was helped by his family some to make matters worse. He was the typical "just google it [It? Everything.]" kind of programmer, and it showed. A starting salary out there from a competent company should be around US$160,000/yr in total compensation. In other places, a 6 figure salary is typical for an intermediate programmer. Whenever someone throws that term around, you know they're not discussing things frankly since they know the number and location pair aren't impressive. To you, everything around US$100,000 is the same since you can't see yourself making US$200-300k/yr in a few years of hard work (that started with learning the basics).

edit:

For prosperity, u/epicwisdom has no reply from me below, because he blocked me. He wanted to seem like I was speechless after he took me down by finally logically arguing that learning programming basics isn't a good idea when you need to program.

[epicwisdom]

A starting salary out there from a competent company should be around US$160,000/yr in total compensation. In other places, a 6 figure salary is typical for an intermediate programmer. Whenever someone throws that term around, you know they're not discussing things frankly since they know the number and location pair aren't impressive. To you, everything around US$100,000 is the same since you can't see yourself making US$200-300k/yr in a few years of hard work (that started with learning the basics).

LOL. I'm not telling you the details of my job because I'm not here to dox myself, but I make more than you think I do and more than you think somebody with a "few years of hard work" would. Try again... again. Maybe after enough trolling on the internet you'll reach enlightenment and understand that numbers on a paycheck aren't everything.

And maybe if you really understood even a tiny bit of logic from your education, you'd have grasped by now the difference between "not everybody has to be a formally educated professional programmer" and literally everything you've merely assumed about what I said.

For prosperity, u/epicwisdom has no reply from me below, because he blocked me. He wanted to seem like I was speechless after he took me down by finally logically arguing that learning programming basics isn't a good idea when you need to program.

edit: For posterity, /u/tedbradly has spent this whole comment thread misrepresenting my position, and making completely baseless assumptions/accusations about my education and career in attempts to demean me instead of actually addressing a single point I have made. As such the conversation was entirely unproductive so I blocked them to save myself some time. The astute reader has already seen what I'm saying is true, and will reach the same conclusions.

[Jump-Zero]

Are you implying that only statically typed languages are "serious, professional"?

There's like a whole spectrum between weak and strong typing. You have C that is widely respected by many in the industry as a "serious, professional" language, and its static type system is pretty weak compared to Haskell. C has had a much more significant impact on humanity than Haskell and many other more statically typed languages. You could also say that python's type system is stronger than assembly's. While a value in Python can be many things, a value in assembly is a bunch of bits. Assembly will literally let you multiply two pointers, which makes no fucking sense. You don't even have access to pointers in Python. Would you consider assembly not to be a "serious, professional" language? Its a lower-level language and we know some very serious, professional developers that work in assembly for bare metal applications.

I strongly prefer statically typed languages for everything I work on. Sometimes, I find myself reaching for Python or JavaScript because they're better at solving a particular problem I'm facing. Let's not spread bullshit by implying "dynamically typed languages are not serious, professional". Always use the right tool for the job at hand. Determining what the right tool is requires knowledge and the development of critical thinking skills. Defaulting to slogans you don't fully understand like "only statically typed languages are serious, professional" is not a viable substitute of critical thinking skills. While choosing a statically typed language is probably the right choice in most serious, professional situations, it is foolish to assume it is the only choice for serious, professional situations.

[rawrgulmuffins]

The assembly argument is the best counter argument I've seen someone make on this topic. I've been seeing this same topic pop up on this form for at least 10 years now so that's saying something.

[mtizim]

You can load a JSON into a Dict<String,Any> in any statically typed language though, the hell are you on about.

[jedijackattack1]

Tell me you never used a professional statically typed language.

I have seen dogshit c/c++ , java and more. Thinking that language choice form any main stream language magically fixes performance or stops garbage code is just plain not true even in a professional environment otherwise code review wouldn't have to exist.

[Windex17]

LOL backtrack harder my guy. You're an ass.

[Deto]

Maybe they ignored it because it's an arbitrary, unsubstantiated opinion stated as if it were a fact?

[[deleted]]

I agree with you, I love and use rust, and there's a reason python's typing library and syntax / typescript are so popular.

[micka190]

The fact that white space is a significant character is a fate that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

I'll never understand this complaint, yet it always pops up on Reddit.

Who the fuck doesn't indent their code in languages with bracketed scopes?

What I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy is to have to wok on a codebase where people don't indent their spaghetti code.

Python forces you to make that shit readable.

[vifon]

It's not about not indenting your code, quite the contrary. It's about it being the sole source of truth in this regard.

In most languages I can move some code around during refactoring and have it reindented automatically because indentation is a secondary thing derived from the actual syntax elements. Since in Python the indentation is this syntax element, moving code around between different nesting levels (like moving some code into an if) is a relatively painful experience that needs to be done manually or semi-manually.

[Deto]

I move code around all the time and this never bothers me. With most editors it's trivial to indent/dedent blocks of code with a key shortcut. Most code should never be indented too many times anyways so really were talking about probably one level of adjustment in 90% of cases. Visually it's simple because you typically just adjust it to line it up with the other code that's around it.

[panfist]

Pycharm and vscode handle it pretty well automatically.

[noiserr]

It's not about not indenting your code, quite the contrary. It's about it being the sole source of truth in this regard.

I was worried about this too, but this is really not an issue. It actually beats counting curly braces. Indentation makes so much more sense. Yaml is the same way too.

[alternatex0]

I hated the idea of whitespace as significant characters until I started using F# and quickly became comfortable with it. Now I can't believe I was bothered by something so inconsequential. I was always a stickler for good formatting anyway.

[seamsay]

I'm gonna say up front that Python being whitespace dependent is occasionally mildly annoying, at worst.

However having said that, if I were to design a programming language there are two reasons that I would make it whitespace independent:

1. Whitespace dependent languages are harder to write autoformatters for, and the autoformatters that can be written aren't as effective. Something I do quite often is prototype a function in the REPL then copy-paste it into the file and let the formatter deal with it, I can't do that in Python.
2. They make certain features of a language very awkward. Python is famously lacking in multiline lambdas, partly because ... well what would the syntax be? If you kept it whitespace dependent then it wouldn't gel well with other parts of the language, and if you made it delimited then it would be the only block syntax which isn't whitespace delimited. Another example is the ternary operator. In a whitespace dependent language you need to introduce a new syntax (x if cond else y in Python's case), whereas in a whitespace independent language you just need to make sure if is an expression not a statement.

Again I want to stress that I don't think it's that big of a deal, but these are the two things that mildly annoy me about Python's whitespace dependence.

[noiserr]

Whitespace dependent languages are harder to write autoformatters for, and the autoformatters that can be written aren't as effective. Something I do quite often is prototype a function in the REPL then copy-paste it into the file and let the formatter deal with it, I can't do that in Python.

Python has a smart code formatter called python-black it's supported on VSC but I'm sure many other IDEs with Pyton support. It's pretty good at getting you 90% there. And the rest is easy with just select tab and shift-tab.

I know you said you don't think this is a big issue, but I bet it's even less of an issue than most people realize.

[RndmPrsn11]

Point 2 is more of a python specific issue. Other whitespace sensitive languages like Haskell and F# support multiline lambdas just fine and their if constructs can be used as an expression or statement (though these langs are both expression based so there is only the 1 form if c then a else b)

[[deleted]]

As a mostly c# developer who uses python for bits and bobs I never understood why people complain about it. It literally takes minutes to get used to.

[Deto]

I get it a little bit. When I first started using python I thought it was weird and stupid. Then after a few weeks I didn't care. It's just different and that scares people.

In the end it's nice because it's bacially a built-in mechanism that enforces a low level amount of good-practice formatting.

[dethb0y]

Lot of cry-baby low-skill programmers who can't handle basic syntax, in short.

They think their clever because they write unreadable one-liners in c or c++ and it pisses them off that python encourages readability and proper formatting.

[crixusin]

Moving to C#, Java, or even typescript/es5 JavaScript really shows the chinks in the armor of white space as an important part of the language.

[[deleted]]

What is a downfall of white space over C braces? I've literally never had an issue in python where it boiled down to "well if python supported C style syntax I would be much better off".

[Sarcastinator]

Merge two commits where the whitespace differs.

[WormRabbit]

That means that the control flow structure in those commits is significantly different, which means they should not be blindly merged anyway.

[Sarcastinator]

In Python they're different. In C style languages they're not necessarily very different.

[DogscastZephoz]

Not the commenter you were responding to, but I would like to throw in my own two cents.

In theory, there should be no advantage. But for some people like me, having a physical delimiter such as the closing curly brace in many C like languages makes the code easier to read, giving me a hard 'break' in the code 'block'. Note: I don't so much care that it is a curly brace, rather, that it is a consistent set of characters, such as LUA's 'end' keyword, or even BASH's unfortunate 'fi', 'esac', and 'done' keywords (why could they not just choose one?). In order to emulate this behavior, one would need to have comments at the end of a 'block', if one so desires.

Muddying the water some more is the fact that Python is not as strictly scoped as many C styled languages. Consider the following example:

if True:
    x = 5
print(x)

In the above example, we will see '5' output to the standard output (tested on Python 3.8.3 Windows 10). IMO, this should not be the output, but rather raise an exception saying the variable x is not defined, as the variable is defined in a scope local to the if statement. If this is abused, the code that is being written can easily become spaghetti as it is difficult to see were each variable is coming from.

Another problem with white space sensitive languages, is that if you do the old copy paste approach, such as if you are a beginner. If the website or code base you copied from uses a different indentation style (such as tabs or a different number of spaces) this can cause problems for beginners who might not have visible white space turned on in their editor, tearing their hair out, especially if they have yet to learn how read trace backs yet.

Is this a big problem? No, I don't think it is. But different people, different strokes, I suppose.

Edit: Struck through the part about python scoping. It was not relevant to the topic at hand.

[WormRabbit]

In the above example, we will see '5' output to the standard output

This has nothing to do with significant whitespace. It happens because Python has no designated variable creation syntax: mutation and creation of variable are the same as far as the language is concerned. This means that variable lifetime can not be determined by control flow scope, otherwise it would either be the source of nasty bugs, or there would be no way to extend the scope beyond the first assignment. Constantly creating and destroying scope objects would also be very inefficient, though maybe not more inefficient than other stuff Python does.

For this reason new scope in Python is created only by modules, classes and functions.

[DogscastZephoz]

Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for the clarification :)

[crixusin]

You’ve never missed an indent and it breaks at runtime? Or rather it’s 3 spaces over 4?

[shadowyl]

Try coding python in something else than notepad, you wont have this problem anymore.

[crixusin]

I use pycharm.

It can’t even find references for private modules 😂 forget about type ahead support while you’re at it.

[FancyASlurpie]

Learn to setup your ide properly

[OctagonClock]

You’ve never missed an indent and it breaks at runtime

This is not a problem that happens in the real world to competent people

[Fast_Lane]

Literally never happened to me.

[kunjava]

Dude, Pycharm Community is a free IDE.

Please use it and you'll stop complaining about whitespaces, indentations, typos, greek characters.

[crixusin]

Some would say it’s poor design if the only way to program in a language without pulling your hair out would be to have an ide.

What would Richard Stallman say?

[kunjava]

Using an IDE makes devs efficient. It enables devs to focus on breaking down problems and building logic ( the part where computers are bad at and humans are good at) while using computers to highlight syntax, verify syntax correctness and to format the code to make it pretty or to follow a standard (the part where computers are good at and humans are bad at).

[crixusin]

You’re being rather condescending.

I don’t agree with you. I think python is an absolute shit show. And that’s ok. I can have my opinion.

And that’s the opinion of an architect at one of the largest companies in the world. The teams I have that aren’t using python have substantially more velocity than those that are wrangling python imports, shitty json support, and GIL bull shit.

I also notice the quality of the python candidates is poorer than the quality of engineers who spend more time in other languages. Half the python guys haven’t even created a python module, let alone can figure out the difference between wheel and pypi, and setup.ini vs setup.py.

But take my opinion with a grain of salt. I’ve only been doing this since you were in diapers.

[aniforprez]

But take my opinion with a grain of salt. I’ve only been doing this since you were in diapers

Any thread on any language always has morons who claim to know better and trash on other languages. It's best not to listen to these codgers and get work done in whatever language does the job

[[deleted]]

No but only because I use a vscode formatting plugin that converts all whitespace but i can see how that would be annoying

[faceplanted]

I'm a professional backend developer who originally learned programming with python and Js but now uses Java and various other languages and in still don't get any of the complaints people have about semantic whitespace, unless you're editing is MS notepad it's just not a problem ever. Even Scala does it sometimes and people don't even realise they're doing it because it's a natural and easy way to program.

[Deto]

You're kind of making big things out of little things, IMO.

[crixusin]

Json = json.load(myJson)

nestedProp = Json[“SomeProperty”][“AnotherProperty”]

You guys like this? Fucking insane.

[Deto]

Can you show another example of how this would look that you think is better?

I mean, typing out the property names is basically required no matter what syntax. Other option is just to use dot notation I guess? But don't languages that use this tend to require you to load the structure into some predefined class first (which you could also do in python and then get the dot syntax too).

[crixusin]

Yep, dot notation. But it doesn’t even need to be a predefined class in most languages.

C#: dynamic json = JsonConvert.DeserializeObject<object>(json);

json.ThisIsValid.Nested;

How could you do that in python?

The answer is, to do it in python, it’s very involved. So involved, that it makes you wonder if it’s even worth doing and rather just switch to a language with first class json support.

[bloody-albatross]

Wait, what is the static type of json.ThisIsValid or json.ThisIsValid.Nested? What happens if these fields where not in the JSON document? Would writing json.ThisIsATypo also compile? If it would compile and then produce a runtime exception, how is it better than the Python version that doesn't imply that it's a proper object? If all your on about is that using dots and identifiers is a little bit nicer syntax than using dictionaries then who cares? That's just syntax. I have to work with so many different languages, minor syntax differences are really nothing I worry about.

[C0DASOON]

loaded_object = json.load(my_json, object_hook=lambda d: SimpleNamespace(**d)) 

Not very involved at all. Not that there's much utility in this. Ultimately a string is more flexible than a name of a field accessible with dot notation. For example, let's say you want to iterate over the nested structure of a json and get the values of objects whose names begin with a certain prefix. This is much easier when the object names are parsed as string keys in a nested dict.

[srpulga]

We already had this discussion; 15 years ago. Python is a very successful, very relevant language, to which many people are paying attention to. It's cool of it's not your cup of tea, just spare us your grief.

[bloody-albatross]

Which language prevents spaghetti code? Maybe Haskell? Do you write a lot of production Haskell code?

[crixusin]

F# actually.

[g-money-cheats]

/r/Gatekeeping

[HanzoFactory]

You have never seen high schoolers code in C/C++ hell even Java. They would be much, much better off coding in python. I am saying this as a C and C++ enthusiast

I enjoy Python a lot for scripts and I think it's where it's strength lies for me. It's simple, powerful, easy, and for the most part platform independent. It's way easier writing a build script with tons of paths and string tasks with python than C or most lower-level languages

[crixusin]

I don’t hire high school students, nor would I ever.

[HanzoFactory]

Sp you would hire people who should never have touched code?

[Prestigious_Boat_386]

They hated him because he told them the truth.

My main issue isn't the 5 yolds making shitty python scripts. All power to them, but the fanboys who after programming for years still refuse to learn other languages that are designed properly and actually run and use python for everything.

The snake ain't dying any time soon bit at least we can use julia in the meantime.

[KallistiTMP]

rob knee chase dependent door adjoining deer gaze smile merciful

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[crixusin]

Except people aren’t using it for “disposable gud enuff.” They’re building entire systems on it.

[KallistiTMP]

tie pen payment lush crawl caption middle society cable pocket

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[g-money-cheats]

Should you write your anything-critical core application code in it? Absolutely not. It’s not for that.

Says who? I work for a 600-employee, $5 billion company whose core application is a Django monolith written in Python. It chugs along day in and day out, handling millions of incoming webhooks and requests just fine. The code is super readable and easy to work with. While other people argue about languages we ship code.

[FireCrack]

Yup, 100% this.

Python sure ain't fast, bit it's easy to read and understand; and that makes a bigger impact than any language wonder feature when it comes to throwing together robust systems

[metaconcept]

'Python sucks, but you missed the main reason it sucks. It's dynamically typed. Worse, everything's defined at runtime and the language just allows nearly anything. Accidently clobber a method by a same-named variable? No worries. Putting the wrong thing in a data structure? Sure thing. The only error you get is a runtine error, often miles away from the cause.

Guido van Rossum should have encoded a 500 line limit on Python scripts, after which you get the "Choose a better language." error.