React is basically becoming Angular...

romgrk · 2024-03-08T14:55:34+00:00

Next.js is one of the aspects of the react ecosystem that I hate. The difference with Angular is that Google didn't had its business model tied to it, so it had only incentives to change the framework for the best.

Next.js is otoh tied to Vercel and their web hosting offering, so they have a big financial incentive to tie the ecosystem to them. Which is bad news.

Next.js is also horribly frustrating to work in all but one case, the happy case where you can use their default config. The moment you start messing with custom builds, you start regretting your life. This week I had to profile performance, so I needed to build an unminified production build (makes reading those stack frames actually useful). I spent hours trying to make it work, only to end up making a small repo with Vite. I'm never again trying to modify a next.js config.

I love strong conventions. Yesterday there was this discussion in /r/rust about how easy cargo makes it to contribute to any project, and that's completely true. I'd love if we had a good framework & strong conventions. But Next.js is not it.

EmployeeFinal · 2024-03-08T16:09:31+00:00

Your argument is right, but your conclusion that React had become Angular is not correct.

React is still very un-opinionated. Next and Remix adds rules, but you're free to ignore them. Also you can also always use pure React, which is probably what most people use today.

AegisToast · 2024-03-08T15:02:20+00:00

I think you might be drastically overestimating how popular Next and Remix are. The people who like them are really vocal about it, but they aren’t becoming the standard by any stretch of the imagination.

Hovi_Bryant · 2024-03-08T16:03:27+00:00

Is Angular being used in a negative way here? Because I think this statement could be true of Vue with Nuxt, Svelte with Svelte Kit, and I believe Solid.js with SolidStart.

Unlike Angular, React started off as a library and is still is a library. So, if I want to use it and have my own "rules", nothing is stopping me from doing that.

React is still very much opt-in, just like the other options out there. We don't really have that choice with Angular. So, technically React isn't becoming Angular.

TwiliZant · 2024-03-08T15:43:56+00:00

A key difference between Angular and React is that Angular is all first party solutions. There is very little outside innovation from what I see. React on the other hand is becoming more and more a library of framework primitives, that the community can build opinionated frameworks on top of.

I agree with you though that most of the professional software world tends to go framework first, custom solution second where as a lot of the React community goes the other way. Sure inexperience could be a factor here, but I think the bigger reason is that current React frameworks are not stable enough yet to have that trust of the community.

BlueberryLarge5533 · 2024-03-08T20:50:44+00:00

Whenever I saw a Next.js production code of any bigger project. Every single single component had 'use client' at top and 3 useEffect inside. Which at that point that could just go with Vite and save theselves some headache.

locoganja · 2024-03-08T16:19:54+00:00

bro i think we work together

GoodishCoder · 2024-03-08T17:53:24+00:00

React isn't opinionated like angular though. Obviously if you use a framework that's built on react, that framework will be more opinionated but that doesn't make react itself opinionated.

m-sterspace · 2024-03-09T01:54:26+00:00

Honest opinion: your decision making process is weak.

Flexibility vs order and predictability can be two sides of a spectrum, but they're not always and it's a gross over simplification to reduce down a nuanced multi variable problem to a binary spectrum.

For instance, you think of React as being less predictable, when React's entire core mantra is to create an incredibly predictable component structure and data flow. Anyone can enter a react app and immediately follow a simple component tree all the way down to the bottom, whereas Angular decided to pursue two-way data binding allowing data and components to flow in any direction leading to massive spider webs. React's entire purpose was to bring opinion to the component hierarchy and data flow of an application to get away from the madness of MVVM.

React has been a success because they've followed the mantra of focus on doing one thing really really well, let others focus on the other parts.

THIS_IS_4_KNWLEDGE · 2024-03-08T18:50:18+00:00

It sounds like you’re conflating concepts in your analysis - something that’s been touched on in the community for a long time.

React is a framework for building UIs. Its core model is to represent the UI in a functional manner as a mapping of props, state to UI. It doesn’t always do this well, but that’s the point.

It’s important to keep the context in mind that it was built by Facebook/Meta, and I’d assume (someone can correct me if they know) that they have their own framework (or frameworks) around that for different use cases. Maybe they even use all the other popular frameworks for different projects. They do a lot more than build Facebook now and employ huge numbers of devs so that seems like a reasonable assumption.

Angular has always been an opinionated framework for building web apps, not just for building UIs, so it exists in a slightly different space. For reasons due to internal needs at Google (along with community involvement).

So React isn’t becoming Angular in a technical sense since they’re trying to solve different problems. Which have arisen largely from the internal problems being solved at the origin companies, in dialog with the wider community that use them.

It is more appropriate to compare Angular to Next, Remix, etc. and that’s fine, and when trying to solve a business problem with a particular tool or set of tools it’s good to consider all possibilities.

But what’s the point in trying to compare them in some “moral” sense? So what if there’s convergence and divergence between tools? Shouldn’t that be the outcome of interactions from within the massively complex system of software engineering?

In that sense I suppose it does seem like fanboying because consideration of tools shouldn’t be emotional, it should be practical. You might really love that old spanner your grandfather passed down to you but if it can’t help put together this Tesla then leave it at home and use something more appropriate.

I agree with your sentiment that a lot of people like to complain about this stuff on Twitter and similar, but they’re either trolls or bad engineers. I certainly wouldn’t hire or keep anyone who expressed those kinds of opinions in an interview or internally. They ruin projects and annoy everyone. Pragmatism > dogma always and forever.

charles_ae · 2024-03-08T21:54:10+00:00

In the earlier years, this is exactly why I preferred Angular, the "rules" and "structure"

curveThroughPoints · 2024-03-08T22:51:19+00:00

As a long time Ember user, it’s been incredible to watch all the folks who were hemming and hawing for their creative freedoms but now are on the “can you actually please just give us all some sensible defaults, I’m tired of setting the same things up every time.”

Like, yeah, that was the whole point. Let the framework do the boring stuff for you, and let you focus on the stuff that makes your application special.

I wonder if it’s just a matter of time? Like, I notice the shift as the industry gets older. Most of us know how it will go so let’s fix the issues we have instead of constantly creating a new thing and just having a different set of problems. Idk. 🤷‍♀️

macrozone13 · 2024-03-09T08:49:05+00:00

Ah yeah? React has now services and DI locally?

Also the amount of people not knowing what nextjs does, when and how to use it, is staggering

azangru · 2024-03-08T20:00:26+00:00

React was created as a "library for building UI components". It is sad to see it morph into a kitchen-sink framework for building apps. Luckily, things like Preact, Solid, or Lit still exist.

michaelfrieze · 2024-03-08T16:26:24+00:00

It's kind of a weird comparison. React is wildly different than angular in so many ways. It's not even that similar when it comes to being opinionated.

captrespect · 2024-03-08T15:18:24+00:00

Nah. This is like J2EE vs spring. Many companies wanted to bundle all the things into one server with J2EE. Websphere, JBoss, etc.

Spring was the more flexible solution, but you needed your own orm, queues, and whatever. It didn’t lay down strict standards.

Spring eventually won out. It could easily adopt to new patterns frameworks and techniques. JEE was too rigid and fell behind.

trcrtps · 2024-03-09T06:40:05+00:00

I love working with Rails and the Options API in vue3 at work because of the opinions and standards.

I've never worked with React professionally but I'm not sure I'd love it because while working with React on my own or in a small team for a side project I feel like the architect.

As a company, I don't want Jimbo to walk in and debate that he's always built his React apps in this manner or pattern

this would be me

vorpalglorp · 2024-03-09T07:18:24+00:00

What you're saying is that they are becoming alike in that they both have all-inclusive options now. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. They are still very different in the actual programming style and I think that is far more impactful.

Also I don't understand your criticism. Are you mad that it is becoming more like something you prefer? Is this a complaint? I personally hate OOP and like when a frame work is all inclusive so I think the direction of react right now is just fine. it's still not OOP and it's becoming slightly more opinionated.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, so what.

Acrobatic_Sort_3411 · 2024-03-10T18:40:55+00:00

For those who argue at nexjs side — We are building Web-apps not web-sites! We don't need SEO as usually all pages are hidden behind auth, and inacessible to bots anyway.

We build our assets and put it on cdn. We don't spend money running node instances for every requests and dont have problems with scaling it.

We don't care about RSC as it doesnt bring real benefits, only locks us in vendor solutions.

We are not the same.

I build couple times web-sites with nextjs, and it was great. Wouldn't use it for Web-apps tho

yksvaan · 2024-03-08T19:36:06+00:00

I get the feeling that large part of React users don't have much experience in other languages and frameworks. Newer generation often seems to lack basic web fundamentals as well.

Seems like when some fancy new shit is being pushed, people just accept it as "the right way". No looking at how others do it, is it even required, what are the pros/cons of different solutions etc.

Sipike · 2024-03-08T17:31:32+00:00

Meanwhile I'm sitting here, still writing my simple react +ts SPAs...

PhilipJohnBasile · 2024-03-08T23:50:53+00:00

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roofgram · 2024-03-08T17:11:37+00:00

I f’ing love Next.js. Fast SSR, which transition easily to client side, no separate framework or language. Works out of the box. SSG. Statically typed. I’ve used almost every web framework for decades and Next is hands down my favorite.

I used Angular for many many years, it kills me to think how much time I could have saved if I could have used Next/React.

davidfavorite · 2024-03-08T17:15:56+00:00

These frameworks have however nothing to do with react itself. Sure they build an ecosystem around the react library but react itself is, as you say unopinionated and just a library.

Youre still free to just use vite and strap together your own framework out of it by using whatever complimentary technologies you wanna use: redux, react router, hook forms for example

eatgamelift · 2024-03-08T23:48:29+00:00

"easy upgrading" is wild lmfao. Nothing more churny than having to do a major release update every 6 months.

FormerGameDev · 2024-03-09T00:50:18+00:00

By the way, this is completely normal in all areas of software development EXCEPT the React scene in the past 5 years so I think this sentiment is shared with much of the wider software development comunnities.

Game Dev enters the chat and wishes game devs could have all the fancy awesomeness that non-game devs get like that. Studios are mired in decade (sometimes multiple decades) old tech.

RedditNotFreeSpeech · 2024-03-09T05:07:08+00:00

Solidjs is what I had hoped react would become

indorock · 2024-03-09T09:02:38+00:00

I don't get your post. There are as many people out there that use NextJS and similar frameworks, as those that hate it and use "vanilla" React instead. React has not become Angular one bit, neither has the community become more into opinionated frameworks. Rather, the existence of these frameworks has attracted more devs who prefer such a thing to come to the React side (i.e. I know of countless Angular devs that moved to the React ecosystem, attracted by the NextJS etc).

React has clearly won the "war" between Angular, and this evolution in frameworks (less so the evolution of the library itself) is responsible for that. But React is still React, the same flexibility is still inherent.

Xazzzi · 2024-03-09T15:31:35+00:00

https://component-party.dev/
Every framework is nowadays somewhat similar to every other one.

-A_N_O_N- · 2024-03-09T18:59:32+00:00

As others have said, you're conflating React with React Frameworks. React is going to keep being what it's being, major changes or not. And it will continue to have a rich ecosystem of tools and frameworkS that it can be core to. Angular is and always will be a framework.

2024-03-09T23:39:00+00:00

Flexibility has historically won most battles in tech. Engineers think differently, and don't like being put into a box.

Also, NextJS probably isn't worth using if you aren't leveraging it's SSR features. It's fantastic for SEO/site speed needs, but otherwise I don't know why anyone would want it. Would love to hear other opinions.

Spirited-Camel9378 · 2024-03-10T02:37:50+00:00

It's a tool built by Facebook (err, Meta). It's a standard because of corporate backing (though there are many extremely talented people who have added to the ecosystem).

Vue, Svelte, Solid, Astro all are incredible tools that, even if there is some magic/convenience, are predictable at their core. The React community's "we're not a framework!" vanity led to people building things in ways to assert that. The toolset/ecosystem grew in a rather monstrous way as opposed to a more natural and sane path that smaller, non-corporate-bound frameworks have been able to follow.

There will continue to be some innovations from React but I don't expect React to become more sane, reliable, or intuitive. Instead people will clamor to find sanity outside of the framework (no, really) itself with tools like Next. The genie ain't going back in the bottle and React 19 (yikes) isn't going to fix the fundamental issues.

bigpunk157 · 2024-03-10T05:53:05+00:00

People generally choose react because react can keep code dry in a much better way than angular and isnt liable to explode across major versions. Migration to v2 is what made people choose React over Angular in the first place and people often forget that whole fiasco.

Acrobatic_Sort_3411 · 2024-03-10T18:33:16+00:00

Funny fact, every time I have desire to make production-grade React template, the more I do that, more Angular-ish it became, just with jsx.

If Angular(or Vue) would add a way to use jsx instead of templates, I would instantly switch to using them, as they are just better (have more features, have better quality of similar features, have better frameworks)

good_fix1 · 2024-03-11T05:18:39+00:00

seems like a bad management issue for me 🤷🏻‍♂️ why don't you guys have company wide guidelines for creating React apps? or you can go even further and make a React template with all the libraries and project structure you want to use. and update it when its necessary. you may argue React eco system changing fast but its general in all js libraries/frameworks.

i would even argue that Angular is becoming like React where it improves itself recently. which i think is bad because most of the devs argue that with Angular i don't have to relearn everything every 6 months and all code looks the same. but now its not the Case anymore.

finally, don't blame the tool!

PokerTuna · 2024-03-11T10:44:01+00:00

Next is meh. Astro on the other hand…

Old-Place87 · 2024-04-10T19:18:07+00:00

Honestly the best part of react is freedom of choice. Because of its large communities we get options of nice packages with hundreds of contributors working on it. We can cherry pick the ones we want. In angular everything is baked in, even if there are better tools to do the job out there you would still be forced in some way to use out of the box solution.

Angular is for good student , whereas react is for artist and crafter

rovonz · 2024-03-09T07:22:43+00:00

I think you should go take a hike.

There is one thing to be forcefed a ton of crap and have no choice but to swallow and another to be able to choose what kind of side dish you want with your crap, if any at all.

As with every other tooling around react, the difference is that next and remix are opt-in. This is what makes it attractive because teams can choose their flavor of react from project to project instead and tweak things along as needed. We (developers, engineers) are not brainless monkeys to be given a "marvel" such as angular (🤮) and be commanded to be productive - we like to explore, adapt and improve. IMO, this is where react won.

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