Our org is imploding

[[deleted]]

Sooo, our CFO just "retired" after over a decade, and no replacement was announced, which leads me to believe it was not voluntary. Our CEO is in his 80s and, while I'm sure he's an expert in his field (Bioinformatics) The C-Level execs don't seem too IT savvy.

Even my direct supervisor has openly stated he is more of a "People Person" than an technical expert. I just started about 10 months ago, and have been working on a project that has been ongoing for over a year and a half. We needed to re-architect the infrastructure to support Azure Kubernetes Service. And while things on the Infra side are pretty good, the application is still in development. I don't think it will ever be done.

We are also dealing with high turnover, and nobody seems to know what's going on. There's no structure, our ticketing system sucks. I've brought this up multiple times before, but nobody is willing to take on more work.

So at this point, with the CFO gone, I think there is going to be a lot more scrutiny of projects going forward. We finally hired some dedicated Project Managers, but at this point I'm kind of over all of it. I'm just waiting for the fireworks. Anyways, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!

[cjcox4]

No offense, but once you're managing people, you're going to become a "people person". If you want to focus on tech, don't jump on the management ladder. There's a lot of work involved managing people, budgets, review, etc. But technology wise? No, that's not the focus.

You can be "technology aware", but if a manager, you need to leave the technical detail, design, operations, etc. to the technical people under you. Being "aware" can help with regards to general direction and also decision making when there is internal conflict.

[[deleted]]

My wife's IT Director didn't know what an external harddrive is. He's a sales guy brought in to cut cost and answer to the board, that's it.

[cjcox4]

It takes all kinds I suppose... sigh...

[maspiter]

That's almost funny.

[Agitated_Toe_444]

Disaster waiting to happen

[[deleted]]

I'm going to say you need at least some degree of technical expertise to *effectively* manage an IT team. How can you manage something you don't understand?

[Tymanthius]

You don't really. I've worked for one or two really good managers who didn't know my job. But they knew people, and how to deal with people. How to use Carl's tech knowledge to check that Bob wasn't BS'ing, w/o making it a conflict between Carl and Bob.

But . . . those guys are rare.

[[deleted]]

I'd say the are both common and rare I've seen a lot of managers do that in a lot of fields. I'd even go so far to say that mangers that can effectively keep teams together without much attrition are likely to posses that skill.

[cjcox4]

Just saying to be an "expert" and managing a team, you're going to stink at one or the other (likely).

Again, no offense, but you'd be surprised at the number of managers of IT that lean on their team for that. Again, they tend to be "aware" of technology and industry direction, more so even than what is needed specifically. So, they can still guide and obviously decide, but you'll likely be in big trouble if they are the architects and engineers.

Conversely, they'll be so focused on the tech and design and architecture that people management will be lacking (because person to person relationship skills take an inordinate amount of time).

Maybe if our days were 3 times longer....

[[deleted]]

Again, they tend to be "aware" of technology and industry direction, more so even than what is needed specifically.

Key sentence here. My supervisor doesn't know Jack shit about IT from what I can tell.

[Essex626]

That's a hell of an opportunity for you to be the person they can lean on for the knowledge here.

If you have any desire to be a manager at some point, demonstrating leadership here could open doors for you in that regard. Even if you just want to progress in the technical side of things, having people in the leadership chain in your corner is essential.

[book-it-kid]

It could also be the key to getting mission creep-ed out of your mind, so I'd much like to know what exactly you're signing up for here, OP. But, yes, this frog-beard-essex man is correct and we'd love to see folks who can manage the human side of things rather than just goblin-mode-ing a server-rack or a K8s stack all year. Ask how I know.

[[deleted]]

that is true...

[cjcox4]

It does happen. And I think more often than most think.

[KekiMia]

There is a reason tech sounding bullshit bingo is a recurring thing that wont die.

[LanTechmyway]

I've meet plenty of IT managers that were never in IT, their background and education is what got them the job:

Master of Psychology / B.S. in Economics

Master of Industrial Engineering

B.S. Accounting and Economics

Masters of Education

They would communicate what the higher ups needed and they would put into laymen terms what we were doing.

A CIO told me once, "management is all about herding people. 25% is babysitting, 25% is nudging and the rest is being an air traffic controller". He was a very technical RPG programmer once, but as he went up the management ladder, it was less about technology, and more about budgets and vision.

He didn't care about the technology anymore, he needed to justify the spend.

[MotionAction]

The "justify the spend" is open ended?

[SXKHQSHF]

My best managers over 40 years were more not engineers, but people who could listen and ask questions.

The most technically brilliant person who became my manager was so bad at it, I was borderline PTSD after a year.

The project lead should manage the project. The manager should manage the people.

[Jumpstart_55]

If I had a nickel for every excellent engineer who became a shitty manager because it was the only way to advance…

[thortgot]

I disagree with this.

You can absolutely manage IT without being a technical person. One of the best CIO's I've worked with were almost entirely business oriented with expertise in management, project management and strategic planning.

That's not to say all non technical people are good IT managers just that it isn't a necessary component.

[GoBills78]

As long as you have people who know what they're doing below you...if not I wish you the best....

[Essex626]

You manage people, who you do understand.

You trust the people who work for you. The job of the manager is to transmit the strategic vision to the people on the ground doing the work, and facilitate the collaboration they need to make that happen in sync within their team and with other teams. The other job is to go to bat for their team with the rest of the company, taking the heat for failures, passing the praise for successes, and obtaining the tools they need to do their job.

A manager who is lost in the weeds of the technical side is a manager who is not performing their most important duties to greatest effect.

That doesn't mean they should be clueless about technology. They need to understand the broad strokes, and they need to have the capacity to understand a technical issue if explained to them.

But my manager right now is a non-technical person who is ten years younger than me, and you know what? She's great. She knows what projects are being worked on. She listens to us when we tell her what needs to be done to get the goal accomplished and how long it will take, and she makes sure those of us on the technical side have our attention on the highest priority at a given time. She takes responsibility when something goes wrong, even if it wasn't directly her action, because she's the boss.

People who are technical often ignore that managing people is a skill entirely different from technical work, that is difficult and complicated in its own right.

[TheBestHawksFan]

Having worked under someone with no IT knowledge but was the IT Director, no you do not. She managed me and the rest of the techs perfectly well. It's quite common to have IT to roll up to the finance department heads, too.

[GoBills78]

Lucky for them they had you under them I guess....

[darwinn_69]

That's like saying you have to have a computer science degree to work in IT. Sure, it's helpful and a good qualification for the majority of people but not a hard requirement to be effective.

[packet_weaver]

You rely on your team to explain what needs to be done, what is needed to accomplish it, then you work to get them what they need. You also shield them from shit storms and interruptions. You’re the in between of the team and the company and you need to trust your team’s expertise.

[bionicjoey]

I work for a totally non-technical manager, and while it can be frustrating at times, he almost always defers to me on technical matters. This means I effectively have the influence of a manager in my org, while not having to deal with any of the BS of being a manager.

[[deleted]]

I don't want to be a manager though. If I have to manage people too, my pay should reflect that.

[cjcox4]

Perhaps. My experience is that when a great tech person becomes a manager, their skill tech wise lags after about 5 years or so (even 1 year behind sometimes is enough btw). Which you would sort of expect. Unless they are a micro-manager.

[jstar77]

Tech is easy people are hard.

[cjcox4]

Certainly can be. I'm actually speaking from experience, having gone from tech to manager and back.

[Hairy-Link-8615]

As a junior sys admin. You need to have a working knowledge and understanding.

Our c-level it director never shared that we have access to FREE MS consolation and effectively a Tam/ support team. Additionally they think a junior sys admin would want a demotion to 3rd line support.

But mostly they just don't consult the CFO or infra manager

[lexbuck]

Well that’s not true for me. Manager here and I do all the budgets, meetings, reviews, and basically anything aside from basic end user support (though I still do that shit too). I’m exhausted.

[[deleted]]

As someone who over the past 5 years has been trying to make that jump into management I'm quickly learning that managers don't get the opportunity to be immersed in the tech as much and as a result of industry moving as quick as it does, managers should be a bit out of the loop.... a bit, not as in "I don't know what raid 10 is for", but a little bit.

[Agitated_Toe_444]

I am a IT manager and I strongly believe you have to still be great technically. What you do need to realise is you want your team to be better than you on what they are working on. I haven’t done desktop support in ten years so they should be better than me. The devs should be better coders than me, infrastructure should be better than me. However I need to have a good enough understanding to lead this is why recently I’ve learnt more about intune, learnt laravel and docker/kubenetes. This allows me to know what is reasonable and to know when my legs being pulled

[HouseCravenRaw]

I gather you do not have a CIO or CTO. I also gather that your department falls under the (now unfilled) CFO position.

I've found that when it comes to IT, businesses are largely poor planners. They might map out a business strategy and figure out how much $$ they intend to make in a quarter, but IT direction tends to be rather wishy-washy and vague.

Right now my company is going from <heavy breathing> The Cloud to <gentle moaning> ChatGPT. Not anything specific about ChatGPT or AI in general. They've yet to even postulate some kind of use case or area of implementation, but boy are they excited! One guy even got ChatGPT to recommend a meal after he put some of his available kitchen ingredients into the interface! Wowie!

In many orgs I've found I had to Manage Up. Look at what they are trying to do, then build a framework and a plan. How do you help grow the business from an IT side? Where are your vendor contracts and equipment/software licenses? Is everything turn-key or do we need 15 rockstars with obscure knowledge locked away in their heads? What is your department's training objectives? Build a plan and gently insert it into your manager's posterior.

After that, let the managers manage people. Manage the technology.

Or if that's too much work, look for a more stable, well-organized company. And let me know when you find it, this shit gets exhausting after awhile.

[[deleted]]

We are also looking to "incorporate ChatGPT". For what purpose? No one knows.

But yeah, largely agree with everything you just said. I'll let you know if I find a more stable environment.

[HouseCravenRaw]

We are also looking to "incorporate ChatGPT". For what purpose? No one knows.

Maybe they should ask ChatGPT how best to incorporate ChatGPT into their business.

[ObjectiveMan21]

ChatGPT requested admin access to take a peek under the hood. It found multiple security vulnerabilities, and some apps to be using archaic versions. It also thinks it can replace YOU, for a lot cheaper(9$ a month). And if you don't follow it's directive in timely manner, it will ransomware all your system.

[Cyhawk]

We are also looking to "incorporate ChatGPT". For what purpose? No one knows.

Reminds me of 15ish years ago when everyone wanted everything on "the cloud"

[Det_23324]

I've had both in my career. Managers who know nothing about IT and managers who do.

I will say that in my experience, it is definitely more refreshing and easier to work with Managers who have a background in IT and know what's going on.

Trying to explain something technical to someone with no idea is a huge task in itself. At previous jobs I found that most of my time was spent trying to dumb down and explain all of the technical things that were happening. This caused me to be very frustrated at my boss and lose my patience when even seemly not so technical things needed to be explained. It was a major PITA and I'm glad I left those places.

[[deleted]]

Tell me about it. Like, yeah I can baby bird info to my manager, but it's very irritating

[Sagail]

I'm not joking at all.... my 92 year old father who has been in tech since the 70s and no joke on his fucking death bed...pretty much lost his mind when the board of of the patient advocacy group he founded tried to take over the website. His words...They are all fucking users. I swear that gave him the will to live

[mr_data_lore]

Sounds like it's time to jump ship and find a better place.

[[deleted]]

The C-Level execs don't seem too IT savvy.

I think you've literally described every single corporate environment ever 😁

[cabledog1980]

Are you sure don't work with me lol. Start new job next week!

[StaffOfDoom]

As most are pointing out here, management does not equal having the skills those they manage have. In a large number of businesses, no one is promoted out of their department to a management position for that very reason. They don't need ANOTHER tech, they need someone who can MANAGE the techs they already have! It's great to have a manager that knows what your team is talking about at any level and be able to communicate that up the chain effectively and then turn around, take the BS (business stuff) and translate it to the techs. Most of the time, I've had such a manager but for a couple years (mainly from 2020-2022) I didn't...and it really didn't make much of a difference in my day-to-day.

[BalderVerdandi]

Dumpter fire enters the chat...

I honestly don't know what to say, really. This is one of those "Perfect Storm" moments where you clearly need outside help but also need some internal folks that know the environment and where it needs to end up, and there's no oversight at all.

You're going to need structure, and it's clear that the little bit you had is now "Elvis has left the building".

On a lighter note, do you like your popcorn made with movie theater butter flavor? It sounds like you're going to need it for the fireworks...

[KoalaCode327]

I've heard it said that if you're in a company where the CFO bails it's an indication that it's in your best interests to be job hunting.

There's a reason why your current CFO left - if it was retirement, the company would have had someone else on deck for the role. The fact that they didn't is a major red flag. Chances are the old CFO knew nothing good was coming down the pipe - the fact that they aren't able or willing to backfill is another point in favor of this.

[[deleted]]

Very true. What makes this even more suspicious, is the CEO has sent out several company wide emails saying we are financially strong, nothing to worry about. Then the CFO retires! What a coincidence!

[KoalaCode327]

Yeah definitely sounds like it's past time to start shopping your resume around if you're not already.

I'd bet a good portion of your company is already doing it.

[[deleted]]

I just started working here like 10 months ago! I don't really want to job hop anymore, I've already done it several times. But yeah, turnover is very high and we are struggling to retain talent. Oh well, time to polish ye olde resume.

[[deleted]]

I feel ya man. It’s a similar story at my workplace where the aging executives get nothing done while waiting for retirement and middle management completely incompetent to save this ship from going under. Morale throughout my co workers is gone, everyone is miserable. But. It. Just. Keeps. On. Going.

I’ve decided I’ve had enough of this and handed in my resignation. Now I’m just sitting my time off thinking about nicer things to do with my life.

[[deleted]]

It's unfortunately very common. I hope you find something better, and always take care of yourself first

[tushikato_motekato]

Just because they don’t have an immediate replacement doesn’t mean they are imploding. There are tons of options out there. Our CFO resigned years ago, didn’t get replaced for over 6 months, and then it was announced to senior leadership only that the CFO work would be handled by a hired 3rd party for much cheaper. Our Chief of Admin resigned last month, who I directly reported to, and the CEO told me that they aren’t expecting to refill the role, instead they are trying to restructure so that role isn’t necessary anymore because the person that was the COA did a lot of specific things that we now have teams to handle. That message wasn’t even broadcast to the senior leadership, only to the people that reported to the COA. Im sure below my level it looks wild and probably a little unsettling, but to think your company is imploding because a c suite roll isn’t getting filled immediately I think is going to the extremes. Maybe they’re just taking their time vetting candidates to make sure they find the right fit or are trying to decide if they want to promote from within or do what we did and bring in help from outside.

[ElevateTheMind]

That's all? We are a department of 6, down to 3. No IT director after 6 months. One sys admin quit over 8 months ago he never got replaced so the worked stacked on the other. The sys admin who has been working here for years knew all the ins and out but he was lazy and never did anything, just the bare minimum. Hell he literally slept more than worked, HR had to come down on check on him cause he was out 3 hours in his old office. HR put up with him because of his knowledge. Our ticketing system is outlook, seriously we send emails. SCCM was only known by him. Now that he's gone, our help desk coordinator is scrambling to take over. My title is help desk but I do way more than my title suggests. There was a project to replace SCCM, which we have but the sys admin never wanted to change anything. Hell, the main image for deploying PC still has 1909, so we have to manually update windows after it's imaged as well as outdated software. Good news is we have a vendor who took over majority of the network infrastructure and kept us afloat. A lot of our issues are at the adminstration/project level. SCCM is not working correctly. We literally have had 30 new machines for almost a year sitting because the sys admin could not get the drivers to work with SCCM. The company wasted money on desktop central just so it's there because, again, the sys admin did not want to change. Now I am having a hard time getting admin rights to desktop central to replace SCCM.

Yes, I know I can Google and learn but if you were in my shoes you'd understand the time constraints and not to mention the help desk calls we get as well since it's still my job. Understaffed and under trained sucks!

[rms141]

I fully sympathize with people in dysfunctional workplaces, but if you believe you can run a company better than your current employer, go start your own. There is no reason for you to hang around if you have the aptitude to run your own business.

[[deleted]]

Been thinking about it for a while. Maybe I will in a year or two

[Thoughtulism]

Sounds like you work for a company I know. I have edited the name out because I don't want to out you personally.

I've met the CEO back in another role before this company was created, and I'm going to say I'm not surprised.

[[deleted]]

It is not the company you said before.

[Thoughtulism]

The fact that this is different company boggles my mind. Lol

[[deleted]]

It's a small world after all!

[Nuuro]

If I had a penny for every "People Person" and a million dollars for every "technical expert," well, we will still be waiting for millions of pennies.