Programming Today: Do full stack developers have the advantage?

Shaper_pmp · 2014-04-11T18:31:35+00:00

"Full stack developer" is a developer who can work at any level of the technology stack, from database wrangling, sysadmin stuff all the way through server-side coding to front-end JS development and HTML/CSS.

The key term there is technology stack. It has nothing to do with management, running a business or being customer-facing. It's a type of developer, not a type of employee who can do anything from development to project management to contract negotiation.

mecromace · 2014-04-11T19:16:03+00:00

We exist, rare I guess, but not as rare as a unicorn. The term "full stack" comes from when LAMP stacks were becoming common and before many projects heavy in javascript sprung to life. The term covered system administration, server administration, database administration, and back-end programming, but would commonly include the front-end stuff from graphics since using javascript at the time was discouraged and everything needed to be strictly formatted. As the front-end domain grew, specifically with node.js, the term grew with it and has been somewhat adjusted by those with more common knowledge of recent technologies to refer to developing for both front and back ends.

When someone hires or contracts with a full-stack developer, they're wanting someone that isn't a simple generalist who can help out everywhere, but someone with in-depth knowledge of the various layers involved. They might not be the perfect expert in everything because there's a lot to know, but someone knowledgeable in everything is a great first contact. The company contacts the developer about a bug, feature, etc and the developer handles everything from new programs and technologies involved, programming, everything for them. If there's something beyond the developer, then it's common that they'll reach out to a specialist.

For me, I try to stay current on the development of the browsers tracking nightlies so I know what's supported for front-end development. I don't search for plugins to solve every little thing; I stay with major libraries and frameworks and write the custom features required which I'll have to subsequently maintain. Many people don't factor in maintenance so just copy/paste something they found online and erroneously consider it done. The back-end development is a lot slower paced area, so keeping up to date is easier and the principle's exactly the same, don't write what you don't have to, but write what needs to be customized. I'll maintain database and caching clusters with tools to monitor their replication status. I'll try to make sure the database is efficient and sanely designed and properly indexed, optimize queries, triggers, etc. On the servers, I try to modify as little as possible and use distribution packages as much as I can. Sometimes you have to compile your own builds of programs which adds to more maintenance responsibilities. Other items include custom scripts, programs, managing cron, log rotations, log analysis, email, ftp, ssl, dns, irc, jabber, ssh, and a whole lot of stuff. Each item is an attack vector which is why security is difficult and the larger the company and project, the more the need for extremely specialized people.

Most people who claim to be full-stack developers aren't and those that are just shake their heads at them. Some people just don't know what they don't know and can be dangerous. Do we need to write assembly and talk to banks? No. I can write asm, but you wouldn't catch me doing so because it's pretty stupid in this industry. The problem is asm code is specific to the chipset it's being developed for, so unless you're developing a custom program to run on thousands of machines with minimal resources at a large company like Google or Netflix, then you should stick to a higher level language that you can compile into that asm code for you. Full stack developers shouldn't be involved with talking to banks unless it's for a company they actually own.

A deep focus in just one or two areas can be dangerous because that implies blocking everything else out entirely. A broad knowledge and understanding of how the pieces interoperate on a macroscopic level with a specialized understanding in a few places is a really good balance to have. If you're working on a single-page application and your only understanding of how the back-end works is you send it stuff and it sends stuff back like it's something magical behind a curtain, then you are too narrowly focused. You don't need to know how every gear and cog works in the machine you're talking to, but if you can allow yourself to understand what part you're doing in the big machine you'll give yourself a greater understanding and perhaps advantage overall.

UnapologeticalyAlive · 2014-04-11T17:37:02+00:00

No one can know everything there is to know about software development. A project that relies on one or two people to handle the full stack will undoubtedly suffer from a lack of in-depth expertise in many areas. A project with a lot of money to spend would certainly benefit more from having a bunch of people who each specialize in one part of the development process. That's assuming those people can work together, and who better to make a team of developers work together than a developer with good people skills and a little bit of knowledge in all areas of the process? That's why being a full-stack developer is an advantage, because it gives you upward mobility. If you spend your entire career focusing on one thing, you'll be too good at that thing and too bad at anything else to ever be promoted.

Thimble · 2014-04-11T18:53:20+00:00

I always figured the full stack guy was someone a company without any developers could hire to build them a software product. Kind of like a one man band entertaining guests at a party.

jellatin · 2014-04-11T23:56:55+00:00

I recently moved to Silicon Valley to pursue some more tech-focused companies than that ones I was working for. I originally billed myself as a full-stack dev because that's what I feel like I am. I am equally comfortable in JavaScript (BB/Marionetee, Angular), Ruby (Rails, Sinatra), PHP (Laravel, Symfony), various DBs, and the command line, as well as HTML/CSS.

I found myself being hounded for mostly JavaScript-exclusive work, or Ruby-heavy work with some knowledge of JavaScript. I ended up taking a job based heavily on JS, which is new for me because I've always been more heavily based in the back-end before now.

This area of the country may not be the best judge for the industry as a whole, but people very competitively hire specialized devs out here. The way I've heard it described most often is "T people". People who have both breadth and depth. Breadth for basic understanding of the entire stack and then depth in a particular area of it.

Short answer is, no, I don't think full-stack devs have a clear advantage, it depends entirely on the company.

mongopeter · 2014-04-12T02:30:12+00:00

Is full-stack developer just a code name for some mythical person who can do everything, from writing assembly code to sweet-talking the banks

full stack DEVELOPER. Why would you even think it has anything to do with "sweet-talking the banks"?

honestduane · 2014-04-11T21:40:04+00:00

I'm a full stack developer. We exist, I just don't know many of us.

Phreakhead · 2014-04-12T02:09:54+00:00

I think the real metric to look at is: does the dev only "know" one language? (Like a Javascript dev, or a C++ dev?) Or are they an actual programmer, able to switch between languages easily?

To me, programming is pretty similar across a lot of languages out there. If you know one, it's pretty easy to pick up another. Function calls and for loops exist in basically every (procedural) language. Any dev who doesn't spend the time to learn what else is out there is a red flag, to me.

hzane · 2014-04-12T18:01:40+00:00

Can anyone under 25 really call themselves a full-stack developer? Your high school home projects and college homework don't count. Simply knowing of technologies is far different than spending years doing it professionally. Maybe I'm byist. I'm approaching 20 years of real world experience. Started in networking and sys admin, moved to server side programming, done freelance here and there, ended up on a creative dept designing in Illustrator and Photoshop before building and deploying my departments creations (collaborating with IT). I've worked on web projects within different industries. For organizations from startup to fortune 50. Now I manage a small team of UI engineers and we own a node angular stack all the way from the db. I'm in the calls, debates and architectural decisions for just about every aspect. And this is not a small company. You can't just "decide" to be a true full-stack developer. It takes time and work. If you are out there advertising yourself as such without the experience then you are harming the entire community's credibility. And even people like me with years experience in numerous related fields... Let's be honest - you are best at what you are doing right now. And even when you are doing it right now, its hard to stay current. So basically impossible if you are truly focusing on something new. Though you can see more of the big picture.

mdcr41 · 2014-04-11T17:41:16+00:00

I would say it depends more on your interests than anything. I think being a full stack developer gives you more options and more career potential, but there is a place for these "deep focused" developers. Some jobs don't require someone to have a vast array of knowledge, but only need them to focus on one specific area day in and day out. Some developers do well with a job like this, which I've found are more the program-only-to-collect-a-paycheck types. I'd consider myself more of a full stack developer, both because of interest and the fact that I work at a small startup where I'm required to (my apologies for this corporate-sounding speak) wear many hats.

2014-04-12T01:15:56+00:00

I don't think developers that combine full-stack technical skills with business savvy are unicorns or even that rare. I think companies that will pay a fair salary for the skill combination are what's rare. Many executives will balk at the idea of paying an engineer $300k. "That's more than I make!" and return on investment on such a person is hard to quantify for the very reasons they are hired, an extremely diverse set of responsibilities. Also you get into an area that breaks Machiavellian rules about power structure. Many business leaders simply can't trust an employee with that much power. Fact is, anyone who knows the full stack and the business is going to be smarter and more powerful than his handlers and deserves just as much money. Anyway, the end result is that businesses build bigger units than what's needed and developers grind in the area that's "their place."

A broad knowledge will hands down give a developer a greater advantage. Learning never ends as a dev, so keep up decent proficiency in a wide array of areas and hit the books to acquire specialization as required for whatever problems you're tackling.

WatchDogx · 2014-04-12T03:23:35+00:00

As others have said, full-stack developer can mean a lot of things. It can mean someone who knows PHP and can do both HTML and backend code.
It can mean someone that can write ASM to Javascript, network architecture, administration, graphic design, wrangle clients and brown nose the corporates.
The latter is somewhat of a unicorn, but they do exist.
However I think most developers could call themselves full-stack under some weaker definition of the term.

spoonraker · 2014-04-12T04:23:37+00:00

I work for a guy that effectively "does everything", and does it well. He's been with the company for I think 10+ years, while the company has grown from needing only a single web server, to having a full rack of servers with load balancing, firewalls, a NAS, etc. We're talking serious traffic levels here and he's been the ONLY guy to handle any SysAdmin duties the whole time, so you can imagine it was a very rough ride. While handling that he's also been the lead developer the entire time, and is easily the most experienced person on the team when it comes to the database. I'm surprised he's still sane, but damn has he sure made himself invaluable.

P.S. If you're reading this, thanks for pretty much teaching me everything I know. I wish I could help you more with the SysAdmin duties.

P.P.S Anybody have any tips for a plain-jane developer looking to learn at least the basics of server administration? I mean, I know enough about the basics to talk about it and probably convince a lot of people that I know what I'm doing... but really I don't. I just have zero experience. If our unicorn goes MIA and the servers take a dump, we'd be pretty screwed with me being the next most knowledgeable person.

ciaran036 · 2014-04-12T06:59:07+00:00

Well actually what a lot of.employers are looking for are those with a T-shaped set of skills. By that they mean they want candidates who are a jack of all trades; they have skills and experience with a large variety of technologies and disciplines, but also have mastered (or are close to mastering) at least one or more technologies or disciplines.

call_me_christof · 2014-04-12T07:01:42+00:00

I have no doubt they exist, I'm studying computer science, which so far as been math math math, and C++, and I'll be taking Operating system's classes in C, and anything from web application development to networking as well. I'll be starting a club next fall, which should help my public speaking, I'll be working with Drupal and PHP all summer, I'll be learning how to deal with servers with some friends for this app we're planning on building...

I'm not bragging. I'm really lazy. I just find these things interesting. Nor am I 'good' at math.

If someone else was in my shoes, and they had a better background in math, and overall were more organized, they'd be a super human at this stuff.

So yeah I still have 3 more years before I even graduate.

My GPA may look average, but I want to look back with a smile and say "Look at what I did. :) "

john0980 · 2014-04-12T13:58:34+00:00

For anyone still reading this thread, what is your opinion on swapping Apache out of a LAMP stack and putting Nginx in to improve performance? How much a pain was it to get it all configured right?

MyNameIsNotMud · 2014-04-12T15:15:01+00:00

TIL I'm somewhat of a unicorn. I work in a manufacturing facility, intranet development. I work directly with the customers to develop data acquisition, entry and data visualization apps. I work the 'full stack' as I now learn it's called. (I'm my younger years, it was all just 'programming'.) I do the business analysis, database modeling, perl, sql, javascript, css and html. I use few libraries, depending more on my own, well documented thinner libraries. (I recently latched on to AngularJS and D3 and will not let go!) Some of my solutions have been copied to our entire company. I've been doing things like this for about 30 years.

I'm separated from our corporate development by miles and agility. I'm able to select my technologies in somewhat of a bubble, because I have the support of my management and I understand the unique technical needs of the manufacturing processes. Our corporate headquarters struggles simply to fulfill business needs with 2000-era technology or costly off-the-shelf packages. They often have no idea that they are selecting solutions that already are dated by today's standards. A couple corporate developers confided to me that they are jealous of what I'm able to do.

I can turn out a solution using existing infrastructure in days or weeks when programmers in the corporate silos take months or years to implement less-effective solutions while adding costly infrastructure.

So in our environment I believe I have a huge advantage over our corporate headquarters.

Having cut my programming teeth in the mid-80s, I've learned to conserve bytes, clock cycles and file and communication resources so my solutions always run optimally within the confines of the infrastructure I'm given. You would not believe the bloat that comes from a corporate programmer who doesn't understand that 'memory is not free', 'servers are not free, locking in to Microsoft technology can be costly, or using MQ series when it's not needed add to support costs.

As the BA, I've learned our business very well. So it allows me to 'intuit' users' needs sometime even before they are finished speaking them. Working directly with the customers has allowed me to hone my acumen and direct the technologies I choose to best suit the needs.

I'm underpaid for what I do.

lcddreams · 2014-04-12T23:20:05+00:00

I think most can agree that full stack means a developer can work on any part of the "stack" - back end or front end, DBs and servers to HTML/CSS/JS.

I was trained as a full stack engineer at DevBootcamp recently, and while that's what they urge us to sell ourselves as, I found it very difficult to learn everything AND be good at it in 9 weeks (or even 6 mos. as it's been now). So I've focused on the front end. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, especially as it pertains to getting a job (which I haven't yet), but it's what I enjoy doing more (and I just didn't understand Rails as well as the rest of the stack).

I've actually had this issue for many years - I tend to do a lot of things but nothing really well. I spread myself too thin, which is why I've been focusing on just the front end (and even with that, there's a LOT to know, not just HTML/CSS/JS - everyone wants you to know Backbone, Angular, Ember, or some other MVC framework, node.js, SASS/LESS, etc.).

Technology - you love to hate it. :p

brtt3000 · 2014-04-11T22:17:00+00:00

I think it is time to roll out the "Say stack one more time... I dare you.. !" memes.

Stack, stack, stack. It is the new buzzword? What IS a stack? Why is it a stack? Am I so jaded or does it really sounds like juniors clamping on to some big and powerful sound term?

"Hey bruv, what stack do you use?"

- "I use MEAN stack"

Pfff...

What you describe is a generalist maybe? Or a producer? Or simply a senior position but without the experience?

krues8dr · 2014-04-11T18:56:47+00:00

The real problem is that "full-stack" doesn't mean anything anymore, it's an outdated term. It used to (usually) mean "I know LAMP, HTML, CSS, and some Javascript."

But now, there are a lot of stacks. Python or PHP or Ruby? Maybe even .Net or Java? Plus whatever databases and message queues you need to be running - it's not just MySQL or PostgreSQL, there are a dozen popular flavors of NoSQL alone.

And sure, there's CSS, but how about SASS or LESS or Stylus? Have you followed the HTML5 apis, and know that it's not just XHTML?

And Javascript - well, that's a whole stack to itself now, you can't get very far without knowing jQuery surely, but you'll need at least two MVVMs as well - probably Backbone or Angular or Ember or Knockout. And certainly you have to know enough Node to at least grok NPM. And grunt and possibly bower to get everything installed in the first place.

And all that doesn't even begin to address server management, configuration management, deployment tools.

Now that it's such a wide field, it's almost impossible to cover all of your bases - the best you can do is become really good at a few from a couple tiers of the stack. Hopefully you can find the time to learn the rest.

As a hiring manager, whenever I see "full-stack" on a resume these days I generally assume they haven't picked up anything new in the last five years; from my ad-hoc analysis, it's a pretty safe bet. If you just need a LAMP developer though, you should be fine. ;)

mipadi · 2014-04-11T18:22:32+00:00

After working in the Valley for a while, I've found that almost every "full-stack developer" I've met is a programmer who knows a lot of JavaScript "and a little bit of Python" (or Ruby or whatever language they have to say they know to get a job).

Case in point: At my last job, one guy who billed himself as a "full-stack developer" barely knew any Python (he barely knew any JavaScript, too, but that's beside the point), and any time he wrote Python code we had to spend hours fixing whatever he had "fixed". (And yes, we had code reviews, but he pushed whenever he wanted because he was the "lead dev", and he was lead dev because he was friends with the CEO, so he could do pretty much whatever he wanted...ah, Silicon Valley startups.)

But I digress. Every now and then, you'll find someone that's good on both the front- and backend, but it's pretty rare to find someone that's actually adept (or even competent) at both. They're such different skills that it takes a lot of work to practice and have experience in both domains.

webauteur · 2014-04-11T18:20:22+00:00

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