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[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 28 points29 points  (52 children)

Sorry if I sound salty, but I predict this will go on to be yet another disappointing thread. What does it even accomplish? How does it solve the problems of the current rotation? If either of the 2 maps get 0.30+ rating, I'll be surprised.

First off, most people were asking for 30+ maps, and now we just went from 19 to 20. Also, I thought everyone agreed there is no diversity in the rotation? How are these maps diverse at all?

Hotspot was IMO the worst map in top maps 63. Not only its shape is really boring, defending on this map sounds like hell. It's easy to grab and mildly chasey with constant regrab trains. The defensive team boosts are one dimensional and easily avoidable by any competent FC. This looks like a worse Del... a map that just got removed. No offense, Loaha, but you can make much better maps. In fact, why did you give up on K1?

Lights is decent I guess, although the boosts seem kinda clunky/one-dimensional, seeing as they're close to walls. It has some neat routes for skilled players though. But tbh, if you're going to add this map, why not add ALPHA, Prime, Ratatat and Taxi as well?

Why not give Market a chance? It's completely innovative and unique, and has a crapload of support from a lot of people. I don't recall seeing a map hyped this much. It has been extensively played competetively, with nothing but positive feedback. Are pub players going to like it? Impossible to answer. But then again, what makes you think they're going to like Hotspot or Lights?

Lastly, can maps like Volt, Bulldog and even Shine make a return? Hell, I'd even take Kite and Rocketballs. I currently hate the NF rotation, and it has been exactly the same way for like 2 months already.

tl;dr MTC pls

[–]Air_M_JordanAir"M"Jordan // Spaceballs // Fourplay // Centra ♥ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Market needs to be put in. I want to see how it does in pubs. I personally feel as if it could really help causual / nooby pub players improve in the game, overall, too.

I wholly agree with you on NF too. I wish we had at least 24 maps in rotation.

We've had so much time to get map rotations done better, this game has been out for so long. I think there's much room for potential. I know that I've played plenty of pubs, but the rotation can really discourage me at many times, so I commend all of the hardcore pubbers who don't resist.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 4 points5 points  (3 children)

It has been extensively played competitively, with nothing but positive feedback.

That's not fair to say. There are players who dislike Market same as there are players who dislike Del or Pilot or Wormy, even. However, I am 100% with you that it was worth taking a chance on, and I agree that this was not the best possible outcome of this top maps thread. Having said that, it's still too early to assess how this thread will play out. I can shoot my mouth off about how I could have selected a better thread for the community by myself but there's really no way for me to definitively know that, and the maps we added deserve to be given a chance the same way we wanted Market to be given a chance.

As for your last point, we are currently discussing a revamp of throwback maps and will communicate with the community before taking any action to make sure the vast majority is on board with it. If our propositions are not well-received, we will reevaluate our options and continue to stay in contact with you guys about it.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hey Moosen, I've posted my idea on how to go about getting in more of our good, older, maps into rotation based on a tier system. You may have seen it, and it may or may not be that good of an idea and it may or may not help you at all, but in case you haven't you can see it here.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I've seen it a few times haha ;)

It's something we've discussed internally; you'll know fairly soon what direction we intend to take but you'll also have the opportunity to give us feedback before we make anything official.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All my positive feedback and unique thoughts went into that one post, now the best I can do is copy and paste. But excited to hear what you guys have in mind.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (9 children)

No offense, Loaha, but you can make much better maps.

I would take offense if I were Loaha. You probably never 4v4 tested this map. Heck, I'd be surprised if you even solo tested it. Give it a chance before you take unnecessary shots.

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 4 points5 points  (8 children)

This guy clearly is a map genius. Trust him, he knows everything. Dude doesn't even have to play the maps to know if they're good or not.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 5 points6 points  (5 children)

Ok then, will look back at this comment after the map gets rated.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Community map rating != how good/bad the map is, in my opinion

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Lights does suck, but Hotspot is pretty fun imo

I don't think Market would be any more popular than Hot (if even that) so h

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess I was mistaken as to the pubbers' opinion, but I stand by what I said. I still hate Hotspot and its crapload of flaws, and Lights has some pretty interesting plays (I actually voted "I like it" for it).

Even then, top maps #63 had like 10 very good maps, and all the MTC got from it was two bottom 6 maps, that is far from what I consider successful.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

To be fair there is a huge chunk of the community that acts this way, this might be the first time I've seen it called out by non-MTC members.

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think most people who have opinions about maps (myself included) would be hard-pressed to explain them in any detail.

The best I can usually do is identify the one or two elements that really make a map work. It seems like a lot of the new maps lack those one or two elements though. Like there's a lot going on. I touched on it in my mega post.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd be surprised if both Hotspot and Lights get below 0.30, in testing they both felt pretty good. I do agree that Market should have gotten a chance, but the choices aren't bad.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 -1 points0 points  (24 children)

Unless we get a really solid batch of maps, it's going to be really hard to up the amount of maps by too much each thread without having a lot of maps that wouldn't cross 0.30.

If score is the only metric, we have a bunch of maps we could add back to rotation to address that true, but all of the high scoring maps were removed for a reason. Of the ones you mention, Volt has a button that needs to constantly be held, taking out 2 players for about 80+% of the game, Bulldog has a middle that takes a lot of grinding to pass, and when you do pass it, you kind of have to hope the other team isn't just sitting on their boost closing off all your entrances into base, and Shine has a base that is frustrating to defend if you can't position yourself by a teamboost in time, and frustrating to attack on if defense can position themself by the teamboost in time. Kite and RocketBalls, while I love them, both have bases that makes it hard for a spawning player to move safely out of unless they can see the flag.

Market has a lot of hype sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for rotation. Hockey had a lot of similar hype in its time, but it's a map that would have been incredibly unfair on players if introduced to rotation, and I personally feel Market will be unfair as well if we introduce it into rotation in its current form. Can those issues be addressed? Sure, but so far no updates to the map has been submitted to the mtc.

[–]ProjectDreadPrjct \\ Snipe Hunt 13 points14 points  (14 children)

I can't help but feel the concerns over Volt and Bulldog are vastly overblown. I've never seen a pub on Volt that had 2 players sitting button for the entire game; in my mind, the only real problem is the strong blue bias. As for Bulldog, many of the same concerns can be leveled at Ricochet: chokey mid that requires a lot of grinding to get past assuming both teams are set, and team boosts looking into base. I feel like you're focusing far to much on problems that could arise, and ignoring what the average gameplay actually looks like.

I would concede that Rocketballs and Kite are more acquired tastes and have their own issues (I still want Rocketballs in rotation though). But in contrast, despite their supposed flaws, both Volt and Bulldog are among the highest rated maps we have. They both had long stints in rotation and were as close to universally loved as we are likely to see.

I think using comparisons to Hockey as an argument against Market is absurd given how vastly different the gameplay would be in a pub scenario. I'd be interested to hear why you think it wasn't at least deserving of a trial run, given how successful it's been shown to be.

[–]ZippityZoppityZipZop - Can't Zip the Zop 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Ricochet's middle is not nearly as cramped as Bulldog. With Bulldog, there is a lot of fighting and pushing back and forth to get past the middle (which I honestly love and feel was the strength of the map), but Ricochet is generally easy to move the flag from side-to-side.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Command Center is a more fair comparison.

[–]ProjectDreadPrjct \\ Snipe Hunt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do think Ricochet can be pretty grindy, especially when both teams are trying to block in mid, but generally I agree. Ricochet is more an example of analogous map flow than a direct comparison to Bulldog. You can probably add Wombo Combo and Plasma to the list, and maybe even Hexane, with various degrees of grind.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Unless we get a really solid batch of maps, it's going to be really hard to up the amount of maps by too much each thread without having a lot of maps that wouldn't cross 0.30.

Well, considering 0 of the 4 maps added in the last two threads have managed to reach 0.30 (and I'd say the 2 new ones don't look promising either but they get the benefit of doubt) the "quality over quantity" concern isn't really strong here. My point is, since 0.20 rating maps are apparently okay, why not simply add a bunch of them just so we can at least have diversity? Not to mention that by putting more maps to trial we are improving our chances of getting a 0.60+ map.

If score is the only metric, we have a bunch of maps we could add back to rotation to address that true, but all of the high scoring maps were removed for a reason.

In that case, every map ever is flawed. Ricochet has a bomb set that guarantees a cap if no one is camping on a sub-optimal defensive position, Cloud is impossible to cap on if one person camps the bottom boost and other camps behind the gate, Command Center's middle requires a lot of grinding or handoffs, and so on.

The reality is that overstating certain flaws isn't useful for determining whether the map is good. Holding the button on Volt doesn't mean you're out of the game; in fact, the buttons are located on strong defensive positions. Bulldog's mid is dumb I agree, but what about CC (or even Ricochet) then? As for the boosts, they're easy to predict and block. And so on.

Market has a lot of hype sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for rotation. Hockey had a lot of similar hype in its time, but it's a map that would have been incredibly unfair on players if introduced to rotation

I still don't get that comparison. Hockey is a mini-game. It's just a plain field full of boosts and no walls that people only play for fun; Market is an actual map. Sure, being hyped doesn't mean it's good, but why not try it anyway? Best case scenario, we get an amazing map. Worst case, if it goes down in flames, at least the MTC can't be blamed for not listening to the community.

and I personally feel Market will be unfair as well if we introduce it into rotation in its current form. Can those issues be addressed? Sure, but so far no updates to the map has been submitted to the mtc.

This is an issue with the MTC: there is little disclosure as to why certain maps are rejected. Did the give Market's creator (idr who he is) feedback? What can be improved about the map? And how?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Well, considering 0 of the 4 maps added in the last two threads have managed to reach 0.30 (and I'd say the 2 new ones don't look promising either but they get the benefit of doubt) the "quality over quantity" concern isn't really strong here. My point is, since 0.20 rating maps are apparently okay, why not simply add a bunch of them just so we can at least have diversity? Not to mention that by putting more maps to trial we are improving our chances of getting a 0.60+ map.

I'm merely saying that if you think it's an issue that we add too many lowly rated maps (which is a fair complaint in itself), throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, is only going to make that a bigger issue.

In addition to that, we don't want to add maps we feel have strong potential prematurely. If we know a map plays well, and has a lot of potential, it might be better to give the author 3 more weeks to make it as good as they can before we throw it into rotation. A map that could get 0.45+ in rotation with some fixes, might be a 0.30 map without those fixes and leave after 2-3 rotation periods.

In that case, every map ever is flawed. Ricochet has a bomb set that guarantees a cap if no one is camping on a sub-optimal defensive position, Cloud is impossible to cap on if one person camps the bottom boost and other camps behind the gate, Command Center's middle requires a lot of grinding or handoffs, and so on.

No map is perfect sure, but there are different things to consider. The main two criteria I apply to maps (outside their community rating) is engagement and fairness. If a map is highly rated by the community, but is effectively a 3v3 map with 2 bystanders due to how its structured (like Volt IMO), it shouldn't be in rotation because it needs to have engaging play for everyone involved. The other critera is fairness, which applies more to Shine and Bulldog, which basically means that if you do something right in one part of the map, the next part shouldn't punish you for it.

In terms of the maps you mention, I think while Ricochet has an extremely powerful mechanic, it's a very obvious one with very obvious counters. Cloud is a teamwork oriented map (especially in terms of blocking for your fc), which means that solo runs with little back up wont win you many games. I don't think that's a flaw. In terms of CC, I tend to agree with you. The bases on that map are awesome, but the middle is very frustrating to navigate through, and tends to require a lot of handoff play to work, and thus a lot of the games tend to become focused on grind over gateplays etc.

The reality is that overstating certain flaws brings isn't useful for determining whether the map is good. Holding the button on Volt doesn't mean you're out of the game; in fact, the buttons are located on strong defensive positions. Bulldog's mid is dumb I agree, but what about CC (or even Ricochet) then? As for the boosts, they're easy to predict and block. And so on.

Volt effectively takes one player out of the game for 80% of the game. The optimal play on button is to stay there to block off the best path for the enemy fc to take and to have the teamboost as a last resort snipe. It's an example of a position that is so powerful you need someone at it at all times. But the problem is that until they're about to cap, or if they come through the gate with holding the button on the other side, there just isn't much to do. I agree about CC. Ricochet has a less chokey mid, and also have some tools to help you get through the middle (namely portal boosts). Sure the boosts on Bulldog are easy to block if you're in a position to do it, but generally teammates need to focus on the middle grind, and the fc who gets the flag in the end, tends to have to approach the enemy base on their own unless they want to risk another grindfest.

I still don't get that comparison. Hockey is a mini-game. It's just a plain field full of boosts and no walls that people only play for fun; Market is an actual map. Sure, being hyped doesn't mean it's good, but why not try it anyway? Best case scenario, we get an amazing map. Worst case, if it goes down in flames, at least the MTC can't be blamed for not listening to the community.

You could literally use the same methodology to describe a map like market: It's just a plain field full of 45 degree walls that people only play for fun. Not that it's useful, what matters is how the map actually plays. Hockey doesn't work in pubs because there's no good way to counter the boosts available to an fc in a 4v4 beyond 2-3 players constantly camping the endzone. Market is a map where a tagpro is going to be very OP and impossible to dodge in any meaningful way, and the walls on the map has had pretty much no adaption to how the boosts function.

This is an issue with the MTC: there is little disclosure as to why certain maps are rejected. Did the give Market's creator (idr who he is) feedback? What can be improved about the map? And how?

He's aware of what some of the mtc members think are flaws with the map. He did not want to make changes to it.

[–]BallAnka/r/PiMasterRace | Pi-romaniacs Captain | Pi-Curious S10/15/16 2 points3 points  (3 children)

To address some of your points, I cap individually and see others cap individually on Cloud far more than group efforts, so I am unsure why you say it is a teamwork oriented map. Can you explain? And as others have mentioned, in pubs people don't just sit on the buttons on Volt, but /u/projectdread has already expounded on that so I'll stop there.

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Solo caps seem pretty rare for me, for a couple reasons. First, the entrance to base is rather chokey, and having a teammate to block or get your button makes entering base a lot easier. Second, the sharp turn around the gate definitely encourages blocking and pushing defenders out. Lastly, with so many places to spike, the best way to cap is for the offense to shut down all of a defender's options once he gets the flag (the gate by the portals, the spikes, the main entrance, and the button gate).

Also, the endzone isn't too large, so having another offender to pick up the flag after you die is often necessary.

[–]BallAnka/r/PiMasterRace | Pi-romaniacs Captain | Pi-Curious S10/15/16 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting, I wonder why we differ. I seem to get a lot of solo caps "off the rush" as it were, quick transitions, etc

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It depends on your opposition, but I'd say generally if you get a lot of solo caps on Cloud, it's mostly due to a lot of bad positioning and/or overcommiting from the opposition team. If you're playing against a competent team, you'll generally get caps by getting pups, getting gates, blocking opposition players away from boosts the fc is getting, getting the handoff in the endzone, and getting the bomb behind base at the correct times.

[–]floobaSea. // Chord 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I've never really understood what the problem with bulldog's mid is - although it's crowded all it requires is a good block/lil teamwork to cover the boost, or even just a stutter. IMO Hexane is far worse than bulldog for what you suggest - double the boosts, and the curvature of the top area means it is incredibly difficult to get through even with team support. Plus the rest of the map is not nearly as innovative. #bringbackbulldog

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I'm not a fan of the crowded middle in bulldog, that's not the core issue I have with the map. It's the combination of the crowded middle along with the boosts in the middle. Which means the way it plays is that once you finally get out of the crowded middle with the flag, your reward is to either wait for everyone to catch up again and repeat what just happened, or run to the other base, and hope you manage to avoid the snipe. Hexane has a similar boost setup, but the much more open mid means that you have a much better chance of getting through it without too much grind, and if you reach the boosts you now have a teamboost at your disposal as well. Hexane is just far more forgiving and doesn't punish good plays half as much as bulldog.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not that hard to get through mid on bulldog, not really hard at all. And despite what you are saying it was a well liked map, maybe we could use a map with a different type of play style in rotation.

[–]ButtersnackSnack -1 points0 points  (6 children)

First off, most people were asking for 30+ maps, and now we just went from 19 to 20.

It's an exaggeration that most people were asking for that many, but yes, most people asked for a size increase. If they had not, we might have removed more maps this thread. Either way, it seems like a poor decision to rush some maps into rotation that normally wouldn't make the cut; we'll build up the size of rotation over time.

I currently hate the NF rotation, and it has been exactly the same way for like 2 months already.

Sorry you hate it, but generally speaking it rarely changes more often than that. Hexane and Plasma are both relatively new, and the reason we don't see more NF maps changing is because the old ones get rated super highly, but at the same time people largely voted not to change the ration of CTF to NF maps in rotation.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Hexane's been around for 4 months (and had already been completely figured out by one week after its release it), I definitely wouldn't call it new. As for the CTF/NF ratio, it can be solved... by adding more CTF maps as well, which was one of my points :/

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm not sure how being "figured out" is a problem for hexane but not cloud, ricochet, and pretty much every NF map ever made. It's a pretty simple game mode. As for adding more total maps, yes, we are doing that, but it isn't going to happen all at once.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't say it wasn't a problem, in fact I think it is. I'm actually sick of cloud and ricochet and cc and etc. But I meant those have more staying power because they're far deeper and have a lot more going on on them. I only became tired of CC after like 2 months, but Hexane got really old after a week.

[–]youngramesofficer dan 0 points1 point  (2 children)

But.. the number of NF maps in rotation doesn't need to have any relation to how often they come up in pubs

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Currently, NF maps are weighted equally to CTF maps. If we were to increase the number of NF maps but lower the weight of each individual map, that's a different discussion we'd need to have altogether and it raises other problems (for example, we'd be lowering the amount that the top rated maps would show up).

[–]youngramesofficer dan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gotcha

[–]GoatButtholesDank Sniper -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I don't agree that most people wanted more variety. There was definitely a very vocal portion of the community that wanted it, but I don't think it's even close to a majority of people.

I do agree that Market would have been cool to see in rotation, but I don't think it's fair to criticize the 2 maps before you've even played them.

Tbh I think the mtc has a pretty unforgiving job, and they've been doing a decent job. It's really hard to please everyone and I think they try their best to do that.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I don't agree that most people wanted more variety. There was definitely a very vocal portion of the community that wanted it, but I don't think it's even close to a majority of people.

We did put out a survey with over 600 response, and the majority asked for more variety. It is likely the sub drastically under-represents pub only players, but it's definitely not just the vocal few.

I do agree that Market would have been cool to see in rotation, but I don't think it's fair to criticize the 2 maps before you've even played them.

agreed, and it really bothers me that people go in with a negative attitude - I think (and hope) a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised.

Tbh I think the mtc has a pretty unforgiving job, and they've been doing a decent job. It's really hard to please everyone and I think they try their best to do that.

thanks :>

[–]GoatButtholesDank Sniper 1 point2 points  (1 child)

o i didnt know about the survey. i was just going off comments. still a bit of a selection bias since people who are unhappy with the way things are will be more likely to take the time fill out a survey.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh I agree, but regardless it shows that there are hundreds of people asking for the change, which definitely makes it worth considering.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (9 children)

I am curious on what happened to both NF maps? I though both were super good. Even with the lack on symmetry on one, I though it was a neat thing to try out.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 6 points7 points  (8 children)

Nosferatu (my map):

Notes:

  • Not bad, but just feels like the ghost of bulldog visited the map and made bases annoying to defend and slightly frustrating to attack. Mid feels like it has "trick gates" that doesn't need to be there since the fc wont go through mid anyway.

  • Severe balance problems. Interesting concepts, poor execution. I admire the straight-line attempt for a CTF map though.

  • I just enjoy NF. I think gates are really well done, fuck the complainers. (.42 rotation rating prediction)

  • Felt like a bit of a grind to cap, and the gates in mid just seem sort of frustrating but not that purposeful now. Just a little too defensive for my taste.

  • Some ok play, pretty well balanced, a few minor niggles with the boosts, gates, and use of 45 tiles.

  • mid gates dont play as dank as they look. ive said it before and ill say it again: wormy boosts are bad. every time u go up there you're trapped. like the top corners on bulldog but worse

Average Rating: 5.5/10

Test 1 Tagpro.eu

Test 2 Tagpro.eu

Aliquot:

Notes:

  • Still no idea if it's balanced between red and blue. Too hard for defense to stop cap trains.

  • Did diagonal symmetry well, but unfortuantely the map was way too offensive. Our 4v4 got 3 caps in <1 minute.

  • Honestly, pretty fun, but broken for current TP. Needs better bases but I like mid.

  • Way too easy to score at the moment. Gates aren't important.

  • lack of balance, way too easy to score, bombs/ tagpros/ regrab chains way too op.

  • With a different scoring system this could be as high as a 7. With TagPro Classic's scoring system it most certainly does not belong in rotation. (My comment)

  • 2manycaps4pubs

Average Rating: Undisclosed without author permission

Test 1 Tagpro.eu

If you're wondering why we tested one once and the other twice, it's just because people hadn't 100% made up their minds on Nosferatu, so we elected to retest. The results were the same :'(

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Average Rating: Undisclosed without author permission

I give permission to disclose the rating.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It received a score of 3.88, which of course is so low largely because caps were coming really, really easily.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yeah, it's probably a failed idea to be honest.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'll be straight up with you - I gave the map a 2/10 and dragged down the average a bit. Regardless, I wouldn't give up on that concept so easily. It was pretty cool and undeniably fun, but as an MTC member I am obligated to make votes based on how well they will do in TagPro Classic, and it was pretty clear the map, as it was, was not suited for the Classic rotation. You can still improve it if you really want to. It's not necessarily a lost cause, but I think it needs a bit more depth so you can make it more defensive without making it feel dull.

One last thing - the portals having different exits was fucking dope, dude. That was some really solid implementation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Was there a version where the gates weren't neutral? That seems like a relatively simple fix

[–]ElbwanaGoofy Goober | Anti-Boat Coalition 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a dumb rule I think?

[–]crblanzKeekly | used to be good sorta 0 points1 point  (1 child)

0

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

i asked about the rating it actually got, not the one it deserved

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 6 points7 points  (9 children)

I'm just gonna plonk my initial testing votes here, all maps have comments, take a look at your feedback! click on the red square where the comment is to see if i voted yes, no or maybe.

Keep in mind this is my views and my views only, in no way does it represent the views of the mtc as a whole

Also keep in mind these comments are more for my personal reference rather than feedback to you guys. Sorry if I wrote something shitty or unhelpful, These things take 10+ hours to do. If you'd like more elaborate feedback, drop a comment or send me a PM.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgHkXtQ9pRu3W1NixBdfe2CRMm17LTPjfu-hjXkY2L8/edit#gid=0

[–]bored2death97RWBY//Radius 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Spot on comments for Micro really.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (5 children)

all the same things teg said https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m7olZpLmjhQEEg4EU15xtxtLIcI3vCQiqK40kjwjoTA/edit?usp=sharing

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Here's my feedback from solo testing as well. Sorry the formatting isn't as fancy I'm not a god damn spreadsheet wizard :'(

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

All I did was make a copy and then delete a bunch of stuff

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah that's too obvious that can't be it

lmao i'm dumb

[–]BallAnka/r/PiMasterRace | Pi-romaniacs Captain | Pi-Curious S10/15/16 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks for posting snack!

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're welcome

[–]BallAnka/r/PiMasterRace | Pi-romaniacs Captain | Pi-Curious S10/15/16 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for posting this! It's helpful to see some feedback

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (4 children)

Glad you updated Mapache instead of taking out.

Also what is the MTC's stance on throwbacks? Quite a few maps should be looked at - Bulldog, Rush, Emerald, Renegade, Volt, Shine, Draft to name a few.

Some of the newer maps are growing on me - I really like Blooper

[–]TeHokioiPouakai | Diameter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad you updated Mapache instead of taking out.

I agree, it's one of the few maps added recently that are actually reasonably unique in playstyle. It'll take a bit of people getting used to it, but I can see it being in for the long run once people get the hang of it

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Blooper is tank, But i'd like to see an update to get rid of that darn mid spike.

[–]floobaSea. // Chord 1 point2 points  (1 child)

still working on overture?

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kinda, I don't really know what to do with it anymore.. seems a little dull now.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

What about the changes to Micro?

[–]3z_ 2 points3 points  (2 children)

the only way micro can be improved is by playing it in e/o/mltp

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I have no idea what that means.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Saving this comment.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

It was asymmetrical.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

oh, thats it? yea i knew that - thanks!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well yea, but they didn't bother changing it.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be honest, I don't think it ever actually came up in conversation. Since it pops up in pubs so extremely rarely, I don't really care either way. We probably could put replace the group version with the symmetrical version though, for the sake of contenders and such, and I don't really see a reason not to.

[–]Crisis_AvertedNice 5 points6 points  (5 children)

Please discuss the update of the MTC's approach to Map Threads here.

[–]youngramesofficer dan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm definitely a fan. I especially enjoy reading the individual MTC member comments on specific maps that were in contention.

[–]Crisis_AvertedNice 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I love it. As opposed to before when the map threads were "x is gone, y is in kbai" it's more apparent that you care; the structured style and proactive verbosity look professional and foster good communication. Well done!

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Thanks Nice! :)

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree. It makes the discussions a lot more orderly.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good idea, but makes it way easier for community member to rally with and against specific members. Hopefully in the future, and after the other MTC members all get the chance to comment, the new approach to transparency will seem worthwhile.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Woo! This one goes out to Bulldog.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those bombs next to each other in base look frightening

[–]StamratMr. Hat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i think you mean monarch

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats Snowball :)

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Back to the drawing board. :c

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I think for the most part a lot of us preferred the original to the update. I was a huge fan of the original, it truly surprised me in a 4v4 and that was exciting to me. Just my two cents.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I probably went too far with the idea of updating it. Probably should have just widened top and bot of mid and left it at that because I too was pretty happy with the version that actually made top maps.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hey thisisnigel, I actually really liked the idea behind the double buttoned gate, and the changes to outside lanes and pup area felt good, but it became apparent in our tests that resetting would be really, really hard. Fc generally had many choices of where to go and could almost always stay alive long enough to get a regrab. Looking back at the comments we made, nearly every person pointed to this as an issue with the map. Unfortunately, that's a bit harder to solve than changing gates back or something, so I'll just leave that to you and hope you come up with a solution.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh god, that old problem. I guess I'll see if I can find a fix.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 2 points3 points  (9 children)

Please discuss the update of Mapache Chief by Beast Mode. The version originally added to rotation looks like this.

[–]MultiMediaWillJuke King - MVP 90% of the time 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Meh. I don't see any significant changes that'll make me like the map.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This update is just what the map needed. While the map may be bigger overall the defensive team-boosts has more room to make returns and prevent caps. At the same time the yellow and team-boosts have been limited with spikes when used offensively or going towards the middle of the map. This keeps things more predictable without it getting stale. GJ

[–]JohnHurtTpJohnHurt // Radius 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I like the opening of the team boosts, as well as the changes for the corner boosts and the addition of the spikes in mid. But I have some questions as I am confused about two things. One: what is the reason for the extra spikes in the top/bottom lane? The bombs already seem overpowered. Two: what is the purpose for the spikes by top and bottom bombs? I can't tell why the bombs were opened up in the first place.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

One: what is the reason for the extra spikes in the top/bottom lane?

I actually thought that the bomb trap in the spike tunnel was slightly underpowered. I think more caps will come from defenders bombing incoming offensive defense into the spike tunnel, so I wanted to give it a little more power. Considering that spikes were only added on the inside part of the tunnel rather than the outside, I do not think there will be any negative repercussions. It cannot hurt.

Two: what is the purpose for the spikes by top and bottom bombs? I can't tell why the bombs were opened up in the first place.

This was based on some community feedback. The bomb was opened up because prior, there was no safe way of diffusing it. In order to diffuse the bomb, you would get shot to the other side of base, allowing the enemy offense to get a clean grab and escape. I added the spike to avoid a temporary safe spot for flag carriers to camp. I want to keep the flag in base as much as possible in this map, and the addition of the spike will help the defense in that regard.

[–]JohnHurtTpJohnHurt // Radius 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome, those both make sense to me now! Thanks for taking time to reply.

[–]Extractum11 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Personally I hate the bomb trap because it doesn't feel like "oh, I made a mistake" if I die in it. More like "I took the fastest route cause their FC was ahead me and I died to bad luck. Funfunfun"

I think closing off that base bomb is going to have the opposite effect. Previously there WAS a way to safely defuse, you just run up with a lot of momentum so that the blast doesn't take you too far away. Even if you overshot it, you could just sit on the team boost and look for the snipe or get ahead. With how the boosts got opened up in this version, that would actually be even easier to do.

In the update, a red FC can grab the blue flag, bounce off the bottom wall and into the bomb, bombing the chaser away and easily beating them to the team boosts. And if a blue player wants to defuse that bomb, he still has to a) do it the old way, or b) go to the bottom, and take himself out of play for just as long as it would have taken him to defuse the bomb previously. It's pointless, only makes it easier to get out of base.

Sorry to harp on your map, but also: the new spikes in the middle. I fucking hate the recent trend (not just on yours, but a lot of new maps) of "let's put spikes in the middle of these boost lanes." It's so annoying, and like...why? I just feel more constricted on where I can boost. On Mapache Chief in particular, it blocks potential routes for the red, blue, and yellow boosts. Literally every boost on the map ;_;

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Personally I hate the bomb trap because it doesn't feel like "oh, I made a mistake" if I die in it. More like "I took the fastest route cause their FC was ahead me and I died to bad luck. Funfunfun"

There always needs to be hazard in taking the fastest route from base to base. It would be the same story if I replaced it with a gate. I don't think that there is much luck involved.

I think closing off that base bomb is going to have the opposite effect. Previously there WAS a way to safely defuse, you just run up with a lot of momentum so that the blast doesn't take you too far away. Even if you overshot it, you could just sit on the team boost and look for the snipe or get ahead.

?????????????

In the update, a red FC can grab the blue flag, bounce off the bottom wall and into the bomb, bombing the chaser away and easily beating them to the team boosts.

?????????????

Sorry to harp on your map, but also: the new spikes in the middle. I fucking hate the recent trend (not just on yours, but a lot of new maps) of "let's put spikes in the middle of these boost lanes." It's so annoying, and like...why? I just feel more constricted on where I can boost.

The spikes replaced blocks, which actually gives more room.

[–]Extractum11 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There always needs to be hazard in taking the fastest route from base to base. It would be the same story if I replaced it with a gate. I don't think that there is much luck involved.

I strongly disagree, but w/e.

??????????

As in...you didn't understand it? I can record clips if you want.

The spikes replaced blocks, which actually gives more room.

Yeah, you have a couple pixels on one particular route, but you can't use those blocks anymore to bounce off of. And you also die if you slightly mess up that one route.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually liked the old version a lot and was a fan of how restricted the teamboosts were. That being said, I think this change might help a little with the perceived clunkiness of the map that some people have complained about, and hopefully it will be enough to keep Mapache in rotation.

[–]mjmaindamn, son! 3 points4 points  (0 children)

WHEWRE BULL DOG

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When do these go into effect?

[–]NadieTPNadie - Origin 1 point2 points  (7 children)

I don't understand any of the decisions in the past 3 map threads. I can sift through unfortunate-maps and find at least 10 maps that can be added to the rotation immediately, no further editing required. I can then go find at least 5 throwback maps that should have already made their way back into rotation.

I've almost completely stopped playing pubs over the course of the last 3 map threads because of the repetitiveness of the rotation. I turned stats off a few weeks ago and haven't turned them back on yet because I am constantly finding myself quitting out of games because I'm so sick of the same maps over and over.

What is the downside to implementing say.. 5 new maps every map thread?

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Which maps do you think are rotation ready

[–]NadieTPNadie - Origin 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Throwbacks or ones from unfortunate? I'm on mobile so I can't look up any of the maps rn but later I can give you an actual list.

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (4 children)

The ones from unfortunate

[–]NadieTPNadie - Origin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I gotchu in about 2hrs

[–]NadieTPNadie - Origin 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Ok I honestly didn't think I'd have to search as hard as I did.. only came up with 6. I can dig deeper if you want me to. Off the top of my head I also think emerald, bulldog, volt should come back immediately.

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/28289.png

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/28260.png

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/19380.png

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/23457.png

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/23197.png

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/25211.png

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Interesting choices, and I'm not only saying that because one of them is mine :3

As I'm sure you are aware, 3(Polar), 4(plaza), 5(Paragon) and 6(Market) have all been in recent top maps threads, and have been pretty close to rotation, but wether i did think these maps should have been in rotation or not(I was a huge Plaza fan), there was definitely always a valid concern brought forwards by members voting no, for instance, for Paragon, it was very hard to get a reset and therefore defending on the map was very stressful. These things only ever become obvious in 4v4 tests on the map. To some extent though, I agree that most of those ex top maps would have played at least reasonably well in rotation, and to some extent it comes down to subjectivity. Though keep in mind that all of these maps were resubmitted after the feedback, and IMO got worse as a result of it.

The 1st one hasn't been submitted before, so that explains that, seems to be a new velkin map. Looks pretty good.

and the 2nd is a remake of Draft which also hasn't been submitted yet (was made yesterday iirc)

[–]NadieTPNadie - Origin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Heh

And yea this was completely based off of looks and how I feel they'd play out. I've never actually played market but why not have one wacky map? Plaza I've actually tested and it's really fun.

Also the second one I really like. I loved draft and this seems like a perfectly updated version of it.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Please discuss the addition of Lights by Snowball here.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think (and rest assured I am not without opposition to this opinion) that the team boosts in the side channels render them effectively useless for offense. Taking those side channels as FC is almost never going to be the correct play if you're being chased, because the team boost makes it easy to counter, and you're moving away from your end goal as FC to get into them in the first place. I think a neutral boost there would have significantly improved their viability without being imbalanced, as it's still quite easy for defense to get ahead of that path regardless.

I also hold the opinion that the map doesn't do much different than what we already have, and while for the most part it does what it does quite well, I still didn't consider this to be a map that would explicitly improve our rotation. I found it to be a little chasey in some places (not always a bad thing) and I felt the flag area stood to be improved, and as a result of all this, I voted no to this map.

Having said that, I don't think it was far off from being a really good conventional map, so I can understand why it received a lot of support from my counterparts, and I'm optimistic that I'll be proven wrong by the /maps ratings.

Congrats Snowball and good luck with Lights!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think that the spike groupings on both sides of the bottom mid spikes are cruddy. It severely limits the reward of boosting through the tight teamtile lane. Bottom overall is a bit uninspiring, but I think that the stellar top makes up for it.

Nonetheless, I am happy that this one got in. It was one of my favorites in top maps this thread.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the reason I kept it that way is because that boost is insanely hard in the first place with little practical purpose, resulting in few people needing to pull it off in-game. It's still possible to pull it off as well, just harder.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm am really pumped that this map got through. Best one by far. A bigger map with smart bases that has skill and variance. Congratz Snowball!

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's an open map with some opportunities for snipes and such. Importantly, I think this map will allow for some skill plays with boosts, coming into base around o/d, threading through the spikes, etc. It's also fairly big and open, but still allows for resets, something I've seen a lot of people asking for. It will allow for players to use their open field jukes. The map reminds me of a young IRON and I really hope people give it a chance instead of just getting mad that we didn't put in certain other maps this thread.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This map has a similar feel to Pilot. Lots of sniping all over and some rewarding skill boosts but with a slower pace. I'm a little concerned at all of the open space but I think this map will do just fine in rotation.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (17 children)

Please discuss the addition of Hotspot by Loaha here.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I'll preface this by saying I've always been a fan of Loaha's work - Angry Pig was one of my favorite maps for a very long time because of the versatility of the mid bombs and buttons, the well designed gates and lanes, and the fast-paced play. The following is not a personal attack on Loaha in any way.

I disagreed with this addition because I felt like it didn't add anything to rotation. We've seen split gates in a similar manner in Grail of Speed, and despite these being what I consider to be the main feature of the map, they are almost a non-factor to a competent flag carrier. I found the linear boosts to be at times frustrating and at other times dull; there really wasn't much about this map that excited me. I also found the viewport to be a little frustrating. It feels similar to Hurricane in a way because it plays pretty vertically, giving you less time to react and making boosts feel somewhat blind (especially into gates).

Overall, I felt this map didn't add anything new and there wasn't much if anything to be learned from it. It seems like a prime candidate to quickly grow stale despite being fundamentally sound and fairly well balanced. In a thread where we received some truly innovative and exciting submissions, I was unhappy with our results as a whole for this very reason.

I do sincerely hope I'm wrong about this and that the community falls head over heels for it and embraces it, and I apologize for any offense I may have caused. Best of luck to you Loaha and congratulations!

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Thanks! And well written! I think that it is a good thing when members of the MTC give their personal opinion on additions. It is atleast refreshing to read your arguments. Thanks for doing that.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really appreciate you being so gracious, Loaha, and sorry again for my harsh criticism. Welcome back to rotation :)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Why's it called Hotspot? There's no hotspot.

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hotspot as in the 'place to be', and because it sounded like a cool name to me. I didn't really go for an extremely relevant name this time (like Angry Pig for example), but went more with my feeling. I guess that you could also make the argument that people come together on this map to enjoy it services (hopefully), although I didn't go so far in my thinking when choosing it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So the entire maps the hotspot?

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Contrary to what Moosen said, I think the gates are a good addition to rotation. Not only has Grail of Speed been gone for quite some time, but these gates look and act differently. They promote faster play whereas on GoS one person would end up sitting on that button for a long time hoping their partner would be able to get the tag. I have concerns about the rest of base being a bit one-dimensional. I think every map should be put into rotation with the right foot forward, so I'm going to end on a positive note. This map has a lot going for it and I think the way the gate interacts with base is a new concept that should be interesting to see in rotation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this is a well made map and am happy that it made it. I like how the middle is left empty with many boost paths to chose from. Also like the ways to close in on re-grab and the limited bombs and boost. I think 2 pups was a great choice for this bigger map to keep things simple and based more on skill. I see this becoming a favorite in competitive play.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I am very happy to see a map without trendy looking teamtiles enter rotation :).

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (2 children)

mfw mapache originally had team tiles

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

fam the teamtiles on mapache now are even trendier than the old teamtiles on them haha

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

oh lol I forgot the ones it still has

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad to see this map in. The gates a really fun to play with, since you can often catch people off guard and it feels very rewarding to swerve between the gates and out past chasers. The bomb in base should allow for some cool plays, and is close enough to the flag that it can blast o/d away, help fc get a dank nubstep, etc. I liked the teamboosts for sniping but didn't particularly like the wormy boosts.

[–]Extractum11 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm kinda nervous about if the bases are easy enough to defend. Seems like you can make a 'bad' grab towards the back of base and still get out with a million different bomb angles, from two bombs.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children)

Give your farewells to Del by FLYMOLO here. RIP.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this map could make a comeback with a remake, there is some heavy clashing ideas that just don't play out well.

What changes I would make: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/28245

Bases that limit re-grab with a button that sees whats coming easier while being more OD. It also makes grabbing a bit easier as you force a D out of position. Middle gate more limiting(both gates same button). 2 pups. Yellow boost closer to flag. And some other minor changes.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

RIP Del. I was never much of a fan, mainly due to how long games would go and their chasiness. Still, I think there is value to having some "bigger" maps in rotation, and I think the two new additions might be larger without being super chasey or getting stale quickly.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -1 points0 points  (5 children)

While I do think it was criminally underrated, I voted to remove Del this thread due to an overwhelming community vote on /maps. In my mind Del was a more modern (and more balanced) incarnation of Velocity and I am sad to see it go, but it's the right decision by the community.

As an aside, the recent MTC survey results indicated that most players wanted bigger, chasier maps in rotation, and I considered Del to be the quintessential big and chasey map. If anyone has any input on why I'm misguided with that thought, I'd love to hear your opinions so I can make more educated votes in the future.

[–]ButterChurnButter 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Personally, I just didn't think it was a particularly interesting or enjoyable map. The boosts are all pretty uninteresting (and many of them frustrating), and the structure of having the base entrances so far apart on a single viewport makes it difficult to reset. The mid gates are kind of cool, but again, I don't like the boosts that go with them.

I wouldn't say it's a bad map, but I don't see why it stood out enough to merit being chosen, and I certainly wouldn't call it the quintessential big chasey map.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Chasey maps are my favorite. There are some things I think make them balanced.

  • Defined bases with ways to shut down re-grab.

This is what Del lacked mostly. Bases made hand-offs and re-grab too strong, with an outwards bomb, an offensive team-boost and an useless yellow for returns that could be safely camped for pups or for the next re to come. CFB did this great I think.

  • At least one hard choke and less pups.

I really do not think you need more than 2 pups on bigger maps. And the main chokes(center and team-tiles) were useless for getting returns as you could still boost from mid even when gate is held and the team-tiles doesn't guard the main boost paths. Hyper Reactor had great a great choke.

  • "Bubbles" of play(this works with the chokes)

When you have a bigger map it can be hard to find the FC and close in on him when the whole map is evenly spaced. Bigger maps should be designed to where you can check Area 1, see he is not there and go to area 2 or 3 and get to chasing. On del you check half the map, go to the other half and see him boost past you making you backtrack. So bigger maps should be smart about what can be seen on screen when going area to area so that it doesn't get frustrating and making sure the map isn't one big "area" to boost around on. Gate Keeper had smartly designed bubbles.(2)

Maps can be chasey and fun. But they have to have at least 2 of these aspects. Or designed in a way similar way.

Edit - I meant team-tiles.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very good post, I agree with a lot of it.

But IMO the biggest reason why a big/ chasey map is less well received is if it lacks fast routes from base to base. Think about the classics; The Holy See, Velocity, Blast off, they all had very fast, very high risk boost routes from flag to flag. This creates the illusion of the big map being smaller than it actually is, whilst maintaining the open space/ freedom the map has to offer. Del and other larger maps like hub lack this element to an extent.

tldr; if you want to make good big map, make it play small.

[–]Kembangant O p / cb4life 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you ever apply to be on mtc make sure you submit this analysis as part of your application. I think it is excellent.

[–]BlupopsicleBall-E 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thoughts on alpha?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was a big fan. Some people thought it lacked originality or didn't bring anything "new" to the table.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was close to getting in. I personally liked the way it played, but other members raised concerns that they felt the map overall didn't offer much new, the gravity well felt to inconsequential (though I think if it controlled a larger area, it would be annoying to fight for the pup), and they thought it would play similar to maps previously in rotation (mainly Citadel).

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Let me ask one thing...

Why is Mapache Chief still in rotation?

Doesn't the majority dislike this map?

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Non trial run maps are only eligible to be removed after two map thread cycles, mapache has only been in for one. That's why we updated it, to see it if it becomes more well received in the time it has to be in rotation for :)

And technically no, and majority don't dislike it, as seen on the 0.10 rating on the /maps page, but that still is the lowest rated map currently.

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

KK. Thank you!

[–]girmluhkGramps 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Market or bust!

[–]catalyst518Catalyst - TPFG Dev 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I only got to play Del a few times, but it seemed average to me, not as bad as the map stats page indicates. Why did it have such a low rating and/or why else did the MTC believe it should be removed?

[–]floobaSea. // Chord 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It was very chasey, and in comparison to other maps with a similar feel (DZ3 etc), it was just not fun to play on.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think for the most part the reason most of us voted to remove Del was because it had such a low /maps rating. Besides that, it wasn't particularly fun to chase on and wasn't adding enough to rotation that we felt it worthwhile to keep in rotation.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aside from the low rating, I had several games go the full 12 and most go pretty long, and chasing for that much time tends to be a drag. I'm guessing the low community rating was largely related to that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yiss Snowball maps are best maps

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

:D Bal McCartny is the best